English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

00:12

@Cerberus Turkey? I couldn't find any women as president or prime minister

Re female leaders, I've heard that lots of dudes have problems with it (also women). But didn't most of us grow up with mothers?

Færd

21

Q: What is wrong with "have put" in "I have put the water in the freezer"?

How to talk about putting water in the freezer to become ice? I have to tell the child that I have put the water in the freezer and after some time it will convert into ice. http://ell.stackexchange.com/a/76262/26777 As a side note "have put" sounds a little weird here. Maybe someone ca...

present-perfect

I, personally, have no choice but to go with the accepted answer for now.

And although I don't spend much time on the main sites, I kinda miss GoDucks on ELL.

Cerberus

@Mitch They had a PM in the nineties, I believe.

@Mitch Exactly!

Tansu Çiller

Tansu Çiller (Turkish: [ˈtansʊ tʃiˈlːæɾ]; born 24 May 1946) is a Turkish academician, economist, and politician who served as the 30th Prime Minister of Turkey from 1993 to 1996. She is Turkey's first and only female prime minister to date. As the leader of the True Path Party, she went on to concurrently serve as Deputy Prime Minister of Turkey and as Minister of Foreign Affairs between 1996 and 1997. As a Professor of Economics, Çiller was appointed as Minister of State with responsibility for the economy by Prime Minister Süleyman Demirel in 1991. When Demirel was elected as President in 1993...

Færd

01:09

Isn't it weird that incidental means 'happening causally' while incident is empty of the idea of causality altogether?

Cerberus

@Færd I don't see any causality in incidental?

It can be casual, though.

Færd

Whatever dictionary I check says something about the connection of what happens incidentally to something else; causal connection especially.

Cerberus

Link?

Færd

ODO:
1Happening as a minor accompaniment to something else
1.1Occurring by chance in connection with something else

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/incidental

LDOCE:
1 happening or existing in connection with something else that is more important
2 [not before noun] naturally happening as a result of something

ldoceonline.com/dictionary/incidental_1

Cerberus

Strange.

Færd

01:17

Yeah!

Cerberus

Hmm I think I see what they mean.

I would say that is a different sense of the word.

"That befalls to x".

Incido = fall upon.

Færd

Ah, interesting.

Cerberus

And it only works in the construction x is incidental to y.

I think.

Færd

That makes sense.

Thanks.

Cerberus

But, yes, I see what you mean by the two senses' being in a way opposites.

Færd

01:21

But I don't think native speakers think of the root when they say incidental.

Cerberus

Both senses are old.

They probably developed either in a time when people understood the origin of the word, or perhaps even already in Latin.

Færd

It's curious why the causal sense got lost in incident.

Cerberus

In incident, it is implied that an event befalls a person, I would say.

Færd

And the noncausal sense got almost lost in incidental.

Cerberus

In that sense, your causal link is not possible.

@Færd It doesn't!

Færd

01:25

Doesn't it?

Cerberus

Only in x is incidental to y.

And even then perhaps not always.

When you say x is incidental, I would read that as "x is like an incident, it just happened".

Færd

But just happened isn't listed in those dictionaries' definitions.

Cerberus

> Incido
1. To fall upon accidentally; to light upon, in thought or conversation: ...
5. To fall in with, coincide, agree with, in opinion, etc.: ...

@Færd By that I meant that it simply happened, without any apparent causal link.

Færd

@Cerberus Yes, that's waht I expect it to mean, but I can't find it in the definitions. I should look again.

All senses of incidental connotes some kind of connection with something else.

Cerberus

> Occurring by chance in connection with something else: the incidental catch of dolphins in the pursuit of tuna

The connexion is that there is no causal link.

Or at least no intentional link.

Færd

01:30

True.

Cerberus

When something befalls you, there is a conexion between you and it.

But it's not intentional.

Færd

But if it weren't for tunas you couldn't say the incidental catch of dolphins.

It's strange to me that it can't just happen without a connection.

Cerberus

I don't understand why you think it can't.

Færd

My understanding of the word (as is used in English) is limited to the definitions I showed you.

Cerberus

If no conected element is apparent, then it just happens.

> 3. a. Casually met with or encountered. rare.
1856 J. Cumming Script. Read. Deuteron. viii. 143 The green moss and incidental flowerets break out from the rifts and rents. 1871 Blackie Four Phases i. 122 The+braying of an incidental ass. 1876 Geo. Eliot Dan. Der. v. xxxviii, A store of magical articulation with which he+promised himself to frighten any incidental Christian of his own years.

From the OED.

Færd

01:36

I see.

Cerberus

Usually some connected element is apparent; the word is then used to indicate that whatever conexion you might expect between the two elements isn't there.

Færd

Isn't? Or is?

Cerberus

Isn't.

You expect intention or causality, but no, it's just incidental.

Færd

> naturally happening as a result of something

Cerberus

Or perhaps some other conexion.

@Færd That's the other sense.

Færd

01:39

Ah you're talking about this sense. I see.

Cerberus

It is admittedly a complex and confusing word.

Færd

Maybe there's no admission or denial of any connection in this sense?

Cerberus

In which sense?

Færd

The one you quoted from OED. It just means it happened, and was rare.

Cerberus

Well, naturally happening as a result of something to me means "there may be a causal conexion, but but an intentional one".

@Færd Yes, I suppose you could say that.

Færd

01:43

> Casually met with or encountered.

= It was just there, with or without a connection to sth else.

Cerberus

Yes.

Færd

:D

Cerberus

> A store of magical articulation with which he+promised himself to frighten any incidental Christian of his own years.

Any Christian of his own years that he might chance upon.

Or that might chance upon him.

Færd

But would you be misunderstood if you used incidental in this sense?

When talking to normal people.

I mean, is it not used widely? Or as widely as the other senses?

Cerberus

I don't think so: how could you misinterpret any of the quotations above?

3a sounds natural to me, so it must be alive and well.

Also because it follows naturally from incident (for me).

Færd

01:49

@Cerberus No, they're clear.

Cerberus

OK.

Færd

@Cerberus Maybe that's why it's natural. It's what you (and me) expect it to mean.

Cerberus

It's natural = it would be easily understood by people?

Færd

Yes.

Cerberus

So now you assume that you would not be misunderstood if you used 3a? I agree, but you seem to be answering your own question now!

Færd

01:52

@Cerberus Yes, natural to native speakers.

They don't compare incident and incidental logically. They just learn them separately.

tchrist

It would give many some pause. I cannot say whether all would unravel it.

Færd

Some of them. I know I do that in my mother tongue.

@tchrist The 3a sense Cerb quoted from OED, right?

Cerberus

@tchrist Which sense of incidental, exactly?

tchrist

@Cerberus Academic use is one thing; pedestrian use may be another.

Cerberus

That's not a sense.

tchrist

01:55

I wonder whether some might not think you meant "accidental".

11 mins ago, by Cerberus

> A store of magical articulation with which he+promised himself to frighten any incidental Christian of his own years.

Cerberus

Sometimes that amounts to the same thing, but it depends on which sense of incidental.

Ah OK.

Faerd asked about "normal people". I am of course assuming educated people, for otherwise they wouldn't know the word at all.

Færd

Why not?

Cerberus

I don't know, it's just not a very common word.

tchrist

Incidentally, heard any good incidental music lately?

Færd

I guess the addverb, incidentally, is common enough.

tchrist

02:02

beat ya

Cerberus

Yes, that is more common.

Thought I'm still not sure a peasant would use it.

Færd

But a pedestrian? :)

Cerberus

Depends on where he's walking.

tchrist

Peón toma caballero; jaque.

Mitch

02:57

@Færd That's the problem with dictionary definitions. They don't always capture how the words are primarily used.

@Cerberus peonastic?

@Cerberus argh... turkish names and no pictures in the wiki list did not help me.

But Central African Republic and Papua New Guinea? Not expected.

skill patrol

That's the poorest country in the world

Mitch

Wait, doesn't Queen Hatsepshut in the Middle Kingdom and Cleopatra in Egypt count? Also Empress Wu in China? How about Gang of Four/Mao's wife

@skillpatrol which one?

skill patrol

Papua

Mitch

CAR probably ain't so great either.

But PNG was the hidden kingdom until WWII, and they had multiple variations in there civilizations, from hunter gatherer to city-state, all at the same time. I bet money is not the top of their priorities.

skill patrol

5 hours ago, by skullpatrol

this is interesting

Cerberus

03:09

@Mitch I think they only counted elected or appointed leaders, somehow.

Mitch

@Cerberus Oh. That makes sense.

Cerberus

Well, I'm not sure it makes sense.

It is a choice.

It depends on the purpose of the map.

skill patrol

03:30

What doesn't depend on purpose?

:P

Cerberus

Very little.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

As long as it doesn't depend on porpoises. They're so unreliable.

skill patrol

Ya, those porpoises are so unreliable.

Never depend on a porpoise.

Cerberus

Tortoises, on the other hand, are quite dependable.

skill patrol

Slow and steady wins the race.

Cerberus

03:39

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@skillpatrol I always hated that moral. "slow" doesn't win races. Steady doesn't win races. Higher average speed wins races.

Cerberus

Depends on the givens.

skill patrol

It's more about determination @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@skillpatrol determination doesn't win races either.

you need to cover the total distance in less time than the opponents.

skill patrol

The will to win.

Cerberus

03:42

You do need determination too.

Several necessary conditions.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you may.

I don't need determination to win a race with my kids. I have much longer legs. I can go much faster.

Cerberus

Given that some people tend to peak too much in marathons, perhaps "slower but steadier" is good advice in some situations.

Slowlier.

Steadilier.

skill patrol

Don't burnout

Pace yourself

Cerberus

Yeah it depends.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Okay, sure, we can contrive any number or race-like situations where some variation of "slow and steady" might be good advice.

But in the fable, the hare loses the race because he's a douche

skill patrol

03:45

Look at the forest, not just the trees.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So the moral should be "don't take a nap until you win", or "don't be overconfident", or "don't be a douche"

Not "Slow and steady wins the race". That is only true in the specific case of gross incompetence on the part of the hare.

skill patrol

Try not using "don't" :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"do not take a nap until you win"

skill patrol

The tortoise wins.

Not the porpoise

:-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The tortoise won the race because the hare was an overconfident jerk with poor time management skills and bad planning.

skill patrol

03:49

But, what did the tortoise do that was right?

That^ is the moral.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The tortoise was lucky.

slow and steady and an incompetent douchebag opponent wins the race!

skill patrol

Luck never made a man wise.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

neither did this fable. It's plainly ridiculous.

skill patrol

Not to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, let me rephrase. It's not so much the fable as the idiom.

"Slow and steady wins the race" is totally BS.

skill patrol

03:53

Again, a matter of POV.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

A better moral would be "There is always someone being slow and steady; if you are overconfident you will lose to them".

Slow and steady basically wins no races anywhere.

It's definitely the combination of steadiness plus opponent mistakes that wins.

if the opponent is fast and steady, they will definitely win. Slow and steady won't stand a chance.

skill patrol

The nature of the animals in a race are a given.

16 mins ago, by Cerberus

Depends on the givens.

Cerberus

Perhaps the character traits "slow and steady" rarely go with "overconfident".

skill patrol

yes

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus my problem is mainly with the assertion that "slow" wins races.

Cerberus

03:58

I understand your point.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But sure, you could totally be overconfident that you're going to win, if your whole life people have said to you "slow and steady wins the race", and you believe them. Then you'll be shocked to discover that you're shit at racing.

skill patrol

But there is a requirement of "steady" @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 which tells kids to keep trying your best.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"Go on, keep doing that thing you're doing mediocrely. As long as you're steady about it"

Cerberus

It's like saying "wasting energy is good for the longevity of your species" based on the fact that peacocks who waste some energy on growing and maintaining their tails are more successful than those without proper tails.

skill patrol

Slow and steady

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:59

@skillpatrol steady is not sufficient to win races.

Neither is slow.

skill patrol

Put them together

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Neither is the combination.

seriously try racing slowly against anyone.

Cerberus

Proper time and energy management is beneficial in many races.

skill patrol

Keep trying your best

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@skillpatrol It doesn't say "keep trying your best" though, does it? It says to go slow.

Cerberus

04:00

And it forces you to plan and not be overconfident, to some degree.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Slow and steady doesn't win marathons either.

Cerberus

Depends on how slow "slow" is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You still need to be faster than the others.

Cerberus

If it means "don't run as fast as you can", it may be good advice.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

slow and steady will let you finish marathons.

@Cerberus But that advice isn't supported by the story and isn't how the idiom is used.

Cerberus

04:01

If you peak a lot, your average may suffer.

I was talking about marathons this time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The story is about a hare that takes a nap during a race because he's overconfident. Then a thing which would normally be impossible happened because he was asleep.

Cerberus

In the story, I can only defend it by assuming that overconfidence is the primary danger, and that a slow and stead attitude towards racing prevents overconfidence.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Sure, in that case "slow and steady won the race", but post hoc ergo propter hoc?

@Cerberus But the hare shouldn't race slowly and steadily. He should race quickly and steadily. His problem was major unsteadiness.

not speed.

He didn't take the challenge seriously

Cerberus

But is "quickly and steadily" an option?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yes.

why not?

It's not a marathon.

Cerberus

04:04

Perhaps the choice is between "slow and steady" and "fast but overconfident".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The hare didn't lose because the tortoise outlasted him.

@Cerberus Yes but "X and overconfident to the point of total incompetence" will lose to a great many competitors.

Cerberus

Certainly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

What if it were two hares, but one was slightly faster, and he was overconfident and ate too much before the race? The other hare then won because he wasn't bogged down by piles of french fries. Fast and steady and better preparation wins the race.

Cerberus

But what if the moral of the story is, even if you're slow, you can still win by determination in certain circumstances, so you should never give up beforehand?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You can draw any conclusion you like from a sample size of one, even fallacious ones.

skill patrol

04:06

36 mins ago, by skill patrol

What doesn't depend on purpose?

Cerberus

I thought it was a scientific test.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Then it should be "Slow and steady and excellent fortune wins the race"

Cerberus

But fortune is not in your hands.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@skillpatrol arguments in this room don't depend on purpose. They are completely purposeless.

@Cerberus neither was the hare's incompetence in the tortoise's hands

Cerberus

But not tortoiseless.

skill patrol

04:07

Sorry, I forgot:(

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Indeed not. So it may be about generating the best chances for yourself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It was pure chance, as far as the tortoise was concerned. He was powerless to win the race except by finishing. For some bizarre reason, the hare basically didn't even run the race, so the tortoise wins by default

@Cerberus Even then, I still object to the "slow" part.

Steady and good fortune win the race.

Cerberus

Perhaps the fable assumes that overconfidence is very common in society. And that many tortoises would give up.

skill patrol

Perhaps there should have been a drug test?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps slow and steady means "slow but steady" here?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:09

@Cerberus The fable isn't entirely bogus. But the idiom "Slow and steady wins the race" which is drawn from it is.

@Cerberus That doesn't help much.

Cerberus

Slow but steady = Even if you're slow, you may still win if you're steady. So be steady always!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It should be "Slow and steady MAY win the race"

and it's not a hopeful message for tortoises, it's a warning to all dumb-ass hares

skill patrol

So try to win.

Cerberus

Perhaps it is a typically American thing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

What is, the proverb?

Cerberus

04:12

God exists. And God is just. So he won't let good people lose, unless it's their own fault. Given that there are slow people, there must be a way for them to win, or God would be unjust towards them. This way is willpower: anyone can have willpower, so it's not unjust if God lets people lose who lack willpower. So willpower will let you win anything.

In summary: if you lose, it must be your own fault, because God would never let virtuous people lose anything.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

um.

skill patrol

Slow and steady wins the race

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare?wprov=sfsi1

Cerberus

A core cultural concept.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah the basis for Trial by Combat

Cerberus

How does that work?

It's the basis for "no public healthcare".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:14

A person who is accused of a crime fights against the champion of the state. If they are innocent of the charges, the Gods will give might to their arm and they will defeat their opponent.

Cerberus

Yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Because God would never let an innocent person go to jail

Funny how that reasoning is never extended to just about any action. "If I try to murder this man, and succeed, it must be because God wanted it to happen!"

Cerberus

Haha yup.

skill patrol

God will never let a tortoise be a loser.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"God wanted me to drink this beer, or He wouldn't have allowed Me to buy it!"

Cerberus

04:16

Never expect consistency in religion.

Every Hollywood film is about people who win not because they're skilled or lucky, but just because of their determination.

As long as you're determined, you can do anything.

skill patrol

I think the hare was a satanists

Cerberus

Haha.

Plausible.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus They discussed that in a Cracked video. How in the Fast and the Furious series, the protagonists and villains walk away from horrific car crashes as a matter of willpower.

Cerberus

I think that is a core concept of American culture.

It's not absent from other cultures, but it is particularly pronounced there.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@skillpatrol Most satanists are misunderstood. Also it was unfair of the tortoise to insist on racing the day that the hare had to take his religiously-mandated nap.

skill patrol

04:19

Lol

Cerberus

The American dream: you can become president as long as you work hard enough.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus lol. Nobody would go THAT far.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps the tortoise was a racist.

skill patrol

^

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus He did insist on a race

Cerberus

04:20

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is their secret hope.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Exactly.

A Freudian slip.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The hare was like "#speedmatters" and the tortoise was like "#allspeedsmatter"

Cerberus

Now you're getting too modern.

skill patrol

Never try to race with a racist.

Cerberus

If you go slow, you can win.

Whatever the racist does, go slower.

Why does someone always bring up race in this room??

I said purpose, and then we got this.

skill patrol

If the tortoise tried to sprint he would be lowering himself to the level of the racist hare.

Cerberus

04:23

Ah, yes.

But the tortoise is virtuous.

So God rewarded it.

skill patrol

He carried the house of the lord with him.

Cerberus

That's true.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@skillpatrol A common misconception. That's just his shell.

skill patrol

We all have our shells to carry.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's how I tell people off: "Go to shell!"

skill patrol

04:29

I guess that's better than telling them to "Go to the Latin room!"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Or like my Mom always says, in her French-Canadian accent: Go to ELL

skill patrol

What would your dad reply?

Cerberus

Haha.

It's bed time.

Adieu!

skill patrol

Cya pal

The moral lesson of the story is that you can be more successful by doing things slowly and steadily than by acting quickly and carelessly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:54

@skillpatrol lol, she only uses it on other drivers.

skill patrol

I see @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇

I found this: "What is harder than rock or softer than water? Yet soft water hollows out hard rock. Only persevere.”

This is a deep quote.

I think the intent of the proverb is to get students to study a little everyday, rather than try to cram at exam time.

Mitch

12:08

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's like all sports commentary after a game "Why did you win the game?" "We got more points." "What was your strategy?" "We were in better shape, we tried harder and there was some luck"

Matt E. Эллен

"The other team were good, they played well. If it wasn't for the fact that we are better, we would have lost."

theyCallMeBobu

@Mitch thank you

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 fallacious and made up.

@theyCallMeBobu de nada. I'm sure there are lots more possibilities. "Bobu's timesheet app" "Timesheeting the Bobulicious way" "XKZ (fill out your timesheet painlessly)"

These suggestions are free. Unless you make a big profit.

Kit Z. Fox

12:42

Easysheets also sounds like "Easy Street".

Which is rather clever.

terdon

12:53

@Mitch Perhaps, but it sounds like a Texan laxative.

Well, not sure if Texan is the right accent actually, I'm just imagining "Easysheets" said by Clay Davis from the Wire.

Kit Z. Fox

Hmm, when you put it that way.

Mitch

13:26

@terdon "When you have to fill out a time sheet, but you feel like you need an enema to get it out, get a Texas strong, Texas big movement to get it out. Smooth move, Easysheets!"

terdon

@Mitch You've missed your calling.

Mitch

Woohoo! Starting the week with poop jokes!

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Non-English link in answer: Antonym for "Dense" by Elishanto on english.stackexchange.com …

Mitch

@terdon Actually I'm heeding a calling...

wait for it...

terdon

Tsk. That one's beneath you.

Mitch

13:28

...and there.

@terdon It is now.

Timesheet jokes. I love it.

Færd

15:34

I find it rather strange that this gum is countable, but this gum is uncountable. I came to terms with the latter, but as for the former, what would a gum be?

Matt E. Эллен

lower gum or upper gum?

Færd

So the whole upper gum is a gum?

Matt E. Эллен

I think so

Færd

I see. Then we have two gums in our mouths?

Matt E. Эллен

sounds about right. I'm no dentist.

tchrist

15:36

Damn it, Færd, he's a programmer, not a dentist.

jinx

Færd

:D

Matt E. Эллен

lol

Færd

Well, good to know. Thanks.

Matt E. Эллен

no probs :)

Weapon X

Does someone here knows german?

Kit Z. Fox

15:39

What do you need? We might could find you someone.

Matt E. Эллен

I take it the German Language chat is dead?

Weapon X

I found this in a book: Father can't sleep and is working in the kitchen

which translates to:

Vater kann nicht schlafen und arbeitet in der Küche

Kit Z. Fox

Shouldn't that be Vater no Vatter?

But "kann nicht schlafen" sounds like a word-for-word translation.

Weapon X

I see the conjugation of arbeiten but why schlafen is in infinite?

yes is Vater, sorry

Kit Z. Fox

"Kann" is taking the conjugation as an auxilliary, I suppose.

It sounds like Google translate though. I don't really know German though.

Weapon X

15:46

@MattE.Эллен I'll check it out, but it is kinda

Matt E. Эллен

fair enough

we are the best chatroom, afterall

Kit Z. Fox

I'm trying to think where there are other German speakers.

Daniel Fischer

@WeaponX It's a decent translation. The "kann" is an auxiliary verb, and auxiliary verbs take the Infinitiv of the verb they're applied to in German.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…