English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Kitḫ

19:00

I believe in protecting the rights of minorities.

MetaEd

@Kitḫ I'm so liberal I'm actually Unitarian.

aedia λ

Yeah, I tried to understand my libertarian-leaning friends, but I'm still not sure I get it.

MetaEd

that's f——ing liberal.

Kitḫ

@MetaEd hehe

aedia λ

giggles

Kitḫ

19:01

I believe in big government.

I like paying taxes.

Cerberus

I believe in some compromise.

Kitḫ

And I believe in Crystal Light because I believe in me!

And the beaver is a noble creature!

aedia λ

@MetaEd I grew up going to a Quaker meeting that was next to a Unitarian church, and then I married an atheist Jew.

Also, I'm an invisible pink unicorn.

Kitḫ

Oh! Atheist Jew! You will have some beautiful children!

Cerberus

Fun fact: in many countries and organizations in Europe, those officials that are completely shielded from the effects of democracy are overwhelmingly leftist.

That includes the Dutch judiciary system, and the EU itself.

The entire organization in Brussels.

Is it the same in America?

Kitḫ

19:09

shrugs I have no idea how I would know.

You mean appointed officials?

Cabinet members, etc?

Cerberus

No, those are too political.

aedia λ

Yeah I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

Cerberus

Judges here appoint new colleagues themselves. European officials are not appointed by politicians either.

Kitḫ

How do they become officials then?

Cerberus

Eh they swear some kind of oath?

Kitḫ

19:11

Are they hired by someone?

aedia λ

Everyone who's anyone is a political appointment here I think.

Where "I think" means I really have no idea what I'm talking about.

Kitḫ

I mean, sometimes "hiring" is a political appointment anyway.

It's pretty grey there, I'd say.

Cerberus

No politicians directly control who is appointed, except perhaps a few people at the top of the European Commission (not so for the highest Dutch judges: the judges themselves prepare a shortlist that cabinet has to follow; they normally pick the top choice). So in the EU case, there are too many layers between politicians and the officials that make most of the policies for democratic stimuli to trickle through.

@aediaλ Hmm really?

Kitḫ

Well, judges in Texas are elected...

But our judges, in my state, are selected by the state legislature based on input and recommendations from the other judges.

They are essentially appointed by the governor.

Cerberus

Ah.

That is pretty political.

Kitḫ

19:14

Meh. Sort of.

Cerberus

Isn't it?

Kitḫ

They are not usually discharged by the next governor though.

Only when there is an opening.

Cerberus

Even so, there is pressure on candidates to please the democratically elected governor.

Kitḫ

That's how it goes with the Supreme Court. The president can't appoint unless someone steps down or dies.

The choice has to be approved by Congress.

It was shocking the Dubya got to appoint two justices.

Two, or was it three?

Cerberus

Sure, a judge is less political than a directly appointed governor; but he is still more political than, say, the Pope.

Kitḫ

19:17

We have elected governors though.

aedia λ

@Kitḫ Uhh I've tried to forget those years...

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I thought all governors were elected?

Oh, that's what you mean.

Kitḫ

You were the one who said "directly appointed governor"

Cerberus

Yeah, a pleonasm.

To clarify the relevant bit about the governor.

Kitḫ

And there isn't that much pressure to please the governor.

Cerberus

19:19

No? Then why should he appoint someone?

Kitḫ

Once a judge receives the appointment, it would take an act of God to remove him.

So maybe before they are appointed, but certainly not after.

Cerberus

I mean please as in develop ideas before the appointment that the governor likes.

Kitḫ

Meh. I don't think it's like that. Judging is different than lawyering, and judges are usually lawyers before they become judges.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I agree that being totally free after the appointment is a big deal; but total freedom before it is even less democratic.

Then how does a governor decide whom to appoint?

Kitḫ

He appoints lawyers who have a reputation for being fair.

Or for other reasons.

Like money, friendship, blackmail, etc.

But the legislature still has to confirm the appointment.

Cerberus

19:22

Exactly. And how about supporting the same political party?

Kitḫ

It's usually a rubber-stamp unless there is something really wrong.

@Cerberus Possibly. Probably, since they would have the same ideals.

Cerberus

Exactly.

So democracy seeps through.

Kitḫ

But anyone too radical would be a non-starter.

Cerberus

Yes.

What would you say is the least democratic institution or functionary in America, while still having a public function?

Kitḫ

Well, I am glad I could help you prove whatever point you were trying to make just then.

MetaEd

19:25

@aediaλ I'm Quaker on my mother's side. Liberal Quaker of course. Shiny be thy hooves and horn.

Kitḫ

giggles

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I don't have a point. I'm trying to see whether this leftist phenomenon is anything close to universal, because I recently discovered it, and it interests me.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus I have no idea.

Cerberus

OK.

MetaEd

By the way, I just want to apologize on behalf of Texas. For everything.

Kitḫ

19:26

If judicial appointments are too political, I don't know what else you could have.

Cerberus

Hmm...

Kitḫ

@MetaEd I appreciate that. I really do.

There are plenty of public services, but most of them have a regular hiring process, just like everywhere else.

Heads of things are appointed.

Cerberus

I'll think about it some more. How about the middle-ranked departmental officials, like the people working in the health department?

Kitḫ

Probably promoted from within. Hired like usual.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ That sounds pretty undemocratic, just like here and in the EU.

But I guess you'd have to stumble upon a study on political orientation among government officials to know, if such exists.

I think it is interesting, and important, because those people make a lot of decisions.

I only know of this paper about Dutch judges, and anecdotal evidence about the EU; nothing else.

Oh, well.

Kitḫ

19:32

Eh. I think most people think like me. I'm usually wrong.

JSBᾶngs

'round these parts, it's common knowledge that the EU is pretty much entirely undemocratic, and is liberal as a consequence

Cerberus

@Kitḫ You just think you're wrong.

@JSBᾶngs Hmm not liberal in the European sense.

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs That's because most liberals are smart.

2

JSBᾶngs

across the whole populace, america is actually not much further to the right than europe, but the right wing in europe has much less power in the government b/c the european gov't is much less democratic overall

Cerberus

Hmm, part of that is no doubt true, but I'm not entirely convinced that the American populace as a whole is no more conservative.

Polls have shown that people here are more socially progressive, I believe.

JSBᾶngs

19:35

@Cerberus it's probably somewhat more conservative

Cerberus

OK.

But I agree that the effect is amplified by the degree of democracy.

JSBᾶngs

i specifically remember one poll showing that public opposition/disbelief in global warming is almost exactly the same in europe and america, but the european elites just basically ignore the proles on this issue

Kitḫ

hahaha

Ah, to have smart people in charge.

JSBᾶngs

i'm pretty meh about both democracy and liberalism, so i'm a little conflicted about this finding

Kitḫ

Democracy does have rather that glaring flaw.

Cerberus

19:37

@JSBᾶngs Could be; but people are more progressive here in certain other social areas, like the acceptance of homosexuality, and irreligion.

@JSBᾶngs I think you should define liberalism first. People here are probably less economically liberal than in America, but socially more so.

Kitḫ

I'm listening to my project lead talk on the phone. He's doing the high school girl thing? Where you end every sentence like a question? It's making me crazy?

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus true. i should define liberalism.

Cerberus

Of course it also depends on what you count as Europe.

@Kitḫ Oh, no??

aedia λ

@Kitḫ You mean? Like? Uptalk?

JSBᾶngs

for the purposes of this conversation i think "europe" is mostly western europe

obviously if you include eastern europe things change drastically

since it's much more religious and conservative

Cerberus

19:39

Yes.

But much of it is part of the EU now.

Kitḫ

@aediaλ Yeah, like that thing?

Cerberus

Although it must be said that Eastern Europe has changed at a very rapid pace, socially, in the past decade.

Then again, you know that.

Kitḫ

Ack. I am so bored. :P

Cerberus

I'm not thinking about Romania so much, but rather Poland and the Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovenia, Estonia.

@Kitḫ I would propose a game, but I need to shower.

We're supposedly going out later tonight.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus You and me? Is it a date?

Cerberus

19:43

Haven't you heard?

Kitḫ

No.

Tell me.

Cerberus

If you can catch the Concorde that leaves in 15 minutes, you can be here by midnight, ish. The perfect hour.

Kitḫ

Hmm.

Well, I'm sure my husband made the arrangements...

Cerberus

You still have time to think about it, depending on how close you live to the airport.

Oh, how good of him.

Kitḫ

Well, I assume you talked to him about a double date?

Cerberus

19:47

He was going to call J.

So anything might happen.

Kitḫ

Oh, I see.

I am cursing division by zero right now, so I think perhaps we shall have to go some other time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ cursing? or causing

Kitḫ

Both.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

excellent

Kitḫ

Not so much. I hate handling div0!

Cerberus

19:51

Aww.

I will curse it too, then.

Kitḫ

Plus, why is this g-deasley thing not coming through as a proper float?

I can't take it. I am getting some CheezIts.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

btw @Matt I did like that story you posted the other day about the boy and his brother buying "girly" games. It gave me a bit of hope for this species.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 What story is this?

MetaEd

25 mins ago, by Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs That's because most liberals are smart.

Can I just repost that from time to time?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yesterday, by Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew you might like this story and cya :)

Kitḫ

20:02

That makes me feel so bad.

@MetaEd Sure, if you want.

Hey, have you ever noticed that people don't use the phrase "conservative elite"?

Cerberus

Don't they?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ what does, that story?

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm putting my faith in the younger generation to shed the chains of the older one.

MetaEd

books.google.com/ngrams/…

@Kitḫ Really?

Kitḫ

20:06

@MrShinyandNew安宇 A boy shouldn't have to protect his brother from his dad.

@MetaEd Funny, I don't think I've heard it before. Maybe that's because I'm not in that camp.

MetaEd

@Kitḫ You just put your finger on it. The problem is party polarization.

Kitḫ

And a dad shouldn't want to hit his son for picking a purple controller.

He made his son cry in public!

What a bastard!

That would devastate me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah the dad is a bastard

Here is a longer version of the same story: sweetupndown.tumblr.com/post/15242399360/…

Kitḫ

I mean, I am really glad that kid stuck up for his brother, but I am really sad that he had to.

MetaEd

@Kitḫ And there are a lot of him. I'd be willing to guess at least 1/10 of the US population of dads are that asshole.

Matt Эллен

20:08

@Kitḫ Indeed. I can't think why you would treat a person so.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But the part that makes me happy is that those kids are already winning in the big picture. Of course, they will have an unfortunate challenge ahead of them. Like, what happens when the older brother moves out. etc. But their minds are already in the right place, and the father is eventually going to die and his shitty ideas with him.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 glad you liked it :)

Kitḫ

It does make me feel better for trying to get my son to pick navy blue snow pants instead of pink ones though.

Because I gave in when he said no, pink was his favorite. And I didn't make him cry or feel weird.

Even though I felt weird.

And I'm sure it never occurred to him that I might disapprove of him for his choice.

So I am not as crappy a parent as that guy.

Matt Эллен

:D

Kitḫ

Who probably loves his sons, and is worried for their safety if they are perceived as wusses.

And probably has a very good reason to feel that worried.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:14

@Kitḫ Sadly, the other kids might not be so understanding. THAT's my biggest fear at this age.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah. Probably if he were going to daycare, I would worry about it more.

I haven't seen those kinds of behaviors yet.

I think he would be more bewildered than anything.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ I think it goes more deeply than that. Because your kid's choice in video games is hardly a badge they wear. I mean, purple controller? FFS, the N64 came with purple controllers! Oh Noes, Nintendo is trying to make your sons gay! Now it wants them to play with their wees!

@Kitḫ I dunno. 3 year olds in my daughter's daycare are already forming cliques and excluding people for arbitrary reasons.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 OK, so he's panicking at the thought of his son being gay or transgender. Still has good reason to.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, that's what I am saying. He hasn't experienced it. I think it would confuse him.

Robusto

16

Q: Colorful term for someone with a long-overdue library book

I'm trying to find a humorous term for someone who still has an overdue library book after a number of years. I first came up with "delinquent lendee", but I'm sure there's something more apropos or alliterative.

Over a thousand views. Geezis. I used to think it was only Beavis & Butthead speech or programming-related questions that whacked the meters that hard.

MetaEd

@Kitḫ Right, but only because the similar parents of other kids have taught their kids by example that different = gross. We should probably put the homophobes on their own island.

JSBᾶngs

20:18

@MetaEd yes! imprisoning people who believe differently is totally awesome

can we make them do hard labor? manufacture our iphones or something?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ He has reason to be worried for his son's happiness and safety, I suppose, since lgbtetc people get bullied, commit suicide, are discriminated against, etc. But threatening violence against his son(s) in a store because the son is buying a game with a female protagonist and a purple controller is completely inexcusable... his "fear", even if that is all it is, is making him act like a rabid dog.

MetaEd

@JSBᾶngs Implied smiley.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Which is what makes me a better parent.

Duh. Aren't we talking about me?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs How about imprisoning people who believe differently and act violently towards their children because of those beliefs?

MetaEd

The point is that people fear for their kids' safety because other adults just like them teach their kids to be intolerant.

Kitḫ

20:20

I plan to teach my sons to be shining beacons of light.

Robusto

@JSBᾶngs We've outsourced that task to China already.

MetaEd

Also, I don't think it is possible to end intolerance. I think it's built in.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 it's not. which is why i don't put up with either of them.

MetaEd

Just as I think kindness is built in. We are two-faced. Homo janus, or something.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto That question sucks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:22

@Kitḫ like fireflies? I wonder if it would be possible to feed them something to me them bioluminant.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 I disagree. I say it blows. Who's right?

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It takes two components to create bioluminescence.

ponders

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It gets all the applause now, but two weeks down the line people will whine on meta how single-word-requests must be killed with fire because of shit like this.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 I voted not-constructive

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 — Well, you're a fire-breathing moderator. Do something.

Kitḫ

20:23

I voted too localized.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I am doing something. Namely trying to educate my folk here in chat.

Kitḫ

What? Where?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That, here.

Kitḫ

Oh.

I already did.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 — You misspelled whinging.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:25

So? Cry me a river.

Kitḫ

But the other thing, should I be doing that?

Fighting the wars that is.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

You should always be doing other things. Always.

Never do not other things.

Kitḫ

OK.

More specifically, which, then?

Matt Эллен

all of them now

Robusto

@Kitḫ How much more specific can he get?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:26

@Kitḫ KILL KING.

Kitḫ

Wilco.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto Seven. I can get seven more specific. Sometimes even eight.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 I wasn't asking you.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

At no point in my tirade did I imply, or wished to imply, that you did.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 — I guess you must have been educating me then.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:28

Goes without saying.

Robusto

He says, without going.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That's what they go when the saying gets tough.

Robusto

Whose sayings are tough? Kierkegaard's?

JSBᾶngs

DEAR CODEZ: WHY ARE YOU SO BORKN?

(sorry, i keep having to do actual work today)

BenjaminHarris

scary the way that works :D

Robusto

20:31

@JSBᾶngs — CUZ UR BAD CODEZ MAN

JSBᾶngs

@Robusto SHUT UP U R

Robusto

@JSBᾶngs NOES UR!!!!

Kitḫ

oh noes! codez bokn?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs It must be a conspiracy. My codez is borkn too

Robusto

Codez is alluz borkn

JSBᾶngs

20:32

QUICK SOMEBODY FIND A SCAPEGOAT

it's probably Reg's fault

Robusto

@JSBᾶngs — MICROSOFT

I win.

JSBᾶngs

@Robusto OH NOES

Kitḫ

rofl

MetaEd

Bill Gates. That's one more specific.

JSBᾶngs

THE BILL GATES HE IS BAD HE BOKN EVERYTHNIG

MetaEd

20:33

I win.

Robusto

@MetaEd — Unquote.

Kitḫ

haz u tryd jQry?

4

hth upvote pls

Robusto

@Kitḫ jQry dunt works in MFC

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ akshully i wish iz uzng jqury rite now. i is usn JSP and is pain.

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 — U NO LIEK JSTL?

Kitḫ

20:35

i wuz thikn i shud uze jqry. or figger out linq

MetaEd

Do it in Perl. Everything should be written in Perl.

Or Lisp.

Robusto

@MetaEd — You pronounced Perl with a Lisp.

JSBᾶngs

@Kitḫ linq iz AWESUM

so is Perl

MetaEd

Perl is LISP mixed with SNOBOL and made to look like it's BASIC.

It is the shit.

Matt Эллен

it's like line noise. Python's where it's at

MetaEd

20:38

You're thinking of TECO.

Robusto

I'm waiting for Wuby on Wails.

JSBᾶngs

@MattЭллен that's what makes it beautiful

MetaEd

TECO is actually much better than Perl. Any random string is valid TECO code.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JSBᾶngs NICE TO SEE U TALKIN IN ALL CAPS AGAIN

MetaEd

The only thing better than TECO is Intercal.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:39

yesterday, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

We must do that again some time. Forcing @jsbngs to use capitals, that is.

MetaEd

It's more write-only than TECO or APL, but mostly illegal.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto You are so yesterday. Wuby on Nawailes is the flavour du jour.

►

MetaEd

I hate the flavor du jour.

Kitḫ

Wubby on Narwhals is in alpha.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MetaEd Be like that.

MetaEd

20:41

I have a professor whose, what, 30 year old SNOBOL4 code basically runs unmodified on a current, supported, SNOBOL4 compiler.

Matt Эллен

depends wut tha flvr iz

MetaEd

Now there's a language standard.

JSBᾶngs

`@s=qw/the and of to a i it in or is/;$c{$_}++foreach grep{!($_~~@s)}map{lc=~/[a-z]+/g}<>;@s=sort{$c{$b}<=>$c{$a}}keys%c;$f=76-length$s[0];say" "."_"x$f;say"|"."_"x($c{$_}/$c{$s[0]}*$f)."| $_ "foreach@s[0..21];
`

how can you not call that a thing of beauty?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MetaEd So what? SNOBOL still sounds gay.

Matt Эллен

barf

JSBᾶngs

20:42

@RegDwightѬſ道 NO UR GAY

MetaEd

@JSBᾶngs My eyes just glazed over.

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Oh what? What? Uh. head explodes

MetaEd

This is what I love about Perl.

Kitḫ

Fsck. I'm out. Going home. Later.

JSBᾶngs

seriously, now: most perl doesn't look like that. that was my entry into a code golf contest

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:43

Well rewrite the same code in C and put it in one line. It won't look too comprehensible either.

JSBᾶngs

@RegDwightѬſ道 meh. not enough $

MetaEd

@JSBᾶngs Damn you. You know I'm going to have to figure that out.

JSBᾶngs

@MetaEd (hint: look at my Stackoverflow user profile)

Robusto

They even made it into a game:

Das Glasperlenspiel

Das Glasperlenspiel. Versuch einer Lebensbeschreibung des Magister Ludi Josef Knecht samt Knechts hinterlassenen Schriften ist ein Roman von Hermann Hesse, der 1931 begonnen und 1943 im Verlag Fretz & Wasmuth, Zürich, veröffentlicht wurde und das Streben nach Wahrheit beschreibt. 1946, drei Jahre nach Erscheinen des Glasperlenspiels, wurde Hesse der Nobelpreis für Literatur verliehen. Inhalt Der eigentlichen Handlung voran geht ein Kapitel, das in Form einer historischen Abhandlung abgefasst ist und die Entwicklung der von Hesse entworfenen Welt darstellt. Nach der Handlung folgen klein...

Matt Эллен

@JSBᾶngs true beauty can only be found in Haskell

Robusto

20:44

Except it should be spelled Das GlasPERLenspiel.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

JSBᾶngs, United States

19.4k 4 27 78

c# c++ c .net perl java windows

Too much C.

Verdict: gay.

JSBᾶngs

@MattЭллен to this i must concur

MetaEd

@JSBᾶngs "vi rules" eh.

Robusto

@MattЭллен — Hacksell?

Matt Эллен

@Robusto if you are so accentally inclined

MetaEd

20:46

@JSBᾶngs The backquotes are a chat screwup, right? You were trying to use the code markdown?

Robusto

I heard you the first time.

MetaEd

Surely you're not backquoting the entire expression.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto I just had to make sure

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MetaEd Noob. It's a super secret Perl operator that makes you rich.

Like, Midas rich, you know.

JSBᾶngs

@MetaEd yeah, i don't know why it didn't work

Robusto

20:47

@RegDwightѬſ道 — C# is pronounced C-hash, or chash.

JSBᾶngs

@RegDwightѬſ道 OH NOES YOU TOL/D TEH N00B

MetaEd

@RegDwightѬſ道 Watch it. I still have my VT220 Gold key.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JSBᾶngs HE WONT FIND TEH TICK KEY ANYWAY.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto is JSTL that cause my brokn codz

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 JSTL IZ CODZ FOR PEPUL WHO SUK

<c:if test="${you}">
U SUK
</c:if>

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:50

@Robusto Y U MISPEL BLOW?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto Your code doesn't work because your test condition is not an EL expression. sorry

Matt Эллен

ELegular expression?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Expression Language expression

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 O YA?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I am afraid in the last thirty minutes this room has degenerated into something way too compehensible to the outside world.

Robusto

20:51

I fixed it.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Thank you, Chris Martin.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto "${you}" doesn't evaluate to a boolean

This just isn't your day, is it?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Robusto fixing things.

Matt Эллен

Doesn't Freya own Friday?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Or maybe Venus

Robusto

20:53

@MrShinyandNew安宇 — Well, you have to set that in your cuntroller, dummee.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto yeah I iz a dummies todays

Cerberus

@MetaEd Wow! Interesting.

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