English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

As a moderator, I'm often staring at a list of the most offensive content currently available on the site. I keep seeing certain patterns emerge, and I think these patterns are potentially dangerous. At least once a day, I see a comment chain that looks like: User1: (unconstructive critici...

Not that you were wrong, just be nice.

I just came across that. It's good stuff.

I feel like I could have wrote it but to live it is another story.

Rathony

Yeap.

Mazura

8:14 AM

Also, one more thing ;p

Rathony

@Mitch Hi, Mitch

Mazura

Go easy on the bold comments unless you really need to drive it home for a specific user or circumstance. It's really 'grabby' and can steal the show from the questions, as questions seem to follow the formatting of each other sometimes.

I know i used\still do but it's like shouting at each other.

Just saying ;p

Rathony

I use far less bold comments than before. I got it.

Oh my God...

The OP deleted the answer.

Mazura

Hmm?

Rathony

The 64 time edited answer.

Mazura

8:20 AM

I was just reading that.

Rathony

I just wanted to ask him to stop editing.

Mazura

Was that the one with the 3 page answer?

Rathony

Yeap.

Mazura

Good.

Rathony

It is more than 3 pages

The OP should have stopped it when Mitch asked.

Mazura

8:21 AM

I was starting to wonder how SE... um. Deals with that sort of... thing.

Rathony

I thought it was not so bad when I posted my answer on Meta. But it is a problem.

Mazura

Their profile makes me wonder if they've ever asked any of those rhetorical (?) questions to an adult.

Rathony

Who is going to read that long answer anyway?

Mazura

I thought for sure it was one of the oldies. I've never caught one like that before, a new one.

Is it downvoted?

Rathony

As far as I understand, there were 2 upvotes (one mine) and I reversed my upvote and downvoted it when it was edited for 58th time or something.

When I last saw it, it was 0.

Mazura

8:25 AM

Need to show 'em the How to get rep fast on SE thing.

Rathony

I don't think anybody downvoted it before it was closed.

Mazura

Edit. But don't edit too much.

Rathony

I left a comment

Can you please stop editing your answer? It is too long and it will make it more difficult for current and future readers to read it fully.

I think it triggered it.

Mazura

Dude!

Woah, dude!

LOL

Rathony

Why?

Mazura

8:27 AM

That was in the comments.

@mitch's I think.

Rathony

Yeap, but it was made after 57 or 58th edit.

This is his 64th edit. Apparently the OP ignored Mitch's comment.

When young players come to Manchester United and then come to us, there’s a very strong message they get that they are representing themselves and the club, and that they should be a good role model. (...). It would be wrong for me to say that there is never any inappropriate behaviour, because boys will be boys, but that behaviour is challenged.

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/12184106/Marcus-Rashford-helped-Manchester-United-slay-Arsenal)

This is the last edit.

What additional value does this edit provide to the answer?

It was his 62nd edit. Congruent means "in accordance with, in harmony with".

Who cares about what Congruent means?

Mazura

There's got to be a meta... How to tell someone they're a chatter box. Where in the faq does it broach that at all, after asking for long answers? Don't be chatty is in there somewhere I think. Don't be chatty but we're looking for long answers.

Rathony

That's too much.

Mazura

The key word was tangential.

That needed to be in bold.

Rathony

I think we should differentiate long and extremely too long.

Mazura

8:31 AM

and capitalized.

Rathony

Editing what a word means doesn't seem to be a good idea. It is not on-topic.

Mazura

There's the longest-answer-ever around here somewhere, IIRC it's got some serious upvotes.

Rathony

But this question is about will and shall.

Mazura

Key component is probably relevance.

Rathony

It is apparently general reference.

Mazura

8:33 AM

Shall we dance?

Rathony

If we had closed this question, it would never have happened.

Mazura

Uh, I have a tough time that, that's GR.

Rathony

You don't think that's GR?

Mazura

ELL maybe but not GR.

But I haven't googled the title yet...

Rathony

Oops. I meant no context.

Sorry

and too broad.

Mazura

8:35 AM

Hmmm

It gets a pass on too broad.

Because it's an please explain this to me question.

Rathony

When should we use law and regulation?

The answer could be 10 pages.

That's too broad a question, I think.

Mazura

It only needs two examples of opposite ways to use both or either.

ELL

Rathony

To some yes, but some like the OP, a pretty big answer could be generated.

Mazura

But not off topic here, at least that I feel qualified to say so.

Rathony

It is debatable.

Mazura

8:39 AM

Spacecase was a special case.

Rathony

There could be millions of questions like that if we allow it.

Mazura

It's better than questions I can answer with a one liner.

That's why I'm not touching it.

I'm not willing to make all those dual examples to explain it.

Rathony

for example, we can easily find the difference on Google.

oxforddictionaries.com/words/shall-or-will

Mazura

And I'd have to re-learn all the stuff myself before I post it ;)

Yea but not the why.

Rathony

why is that? type of question is not very easy to be answered objectively.

Mazura

8:42 AM

That's SE greatest achievement I think. To seek the Why, not the reddit comment.

Rathony

There are so many on Google. blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2013/09/will-versus-shall

I agree. But that applies to questions on nuance and expression, idioms.

Mazura

But I do love me some one liners.

Rathony

One liners are not okay

It discourages other people who spend more time.

It encourages other one-liners.

Mazura

This gave me pause though:

Imagine you google for a question, and the first search result that comes up is a StackOverflow post for exactly the question you need. So you click on it, read the answer... and what does it say? “Just google for it!”

134

Q: How should we deal with Google questions?

I've seen a lot of questions that can be answered with a simple Google search. For these questions, an answer can be found by just cut'n'pasting the question directly into the Google search field and scanning the first few hits. Every new user wants to try out the feature and ask a question jus...

support faq

@Rathony Not answers, commenting like a boss ;)

Comment badges are the only ones I've ever wanted.

Check my latest CW and the comments.

That was my thinking, even though I hadn't read that meta, at least not in a while if I have.

Rathony

Sorry, I can't find it.

That's too long.

Mazura

8:49 AM

Oh not in there. Here.

-2

A: How many words are there in English if we don’t count duplicates?

1,025,109.8 The number of words in the English language is: 1,025,109.8. This is the estimate by the Global Language Monitor on January 1, 2014. The English Language passed the Million Word threshold on June 10, 2009 at 10:22 a.m. (GMT). The Millionth Word was the controversial 'Web 2.0′....

Rathony

A bit lost

Ah, I remember the answer. One out of two is mine.

BTW, how do you answer using community wiki? What is its benefit?

or advantage?

Mazura

That people with lower rep can edit it.

It says to the community: Go ahead. Edit me like this is a wiki article.

lower right corner of an answer box is a check box: Make this post a Community Wiki.

Rathony

I see.

I didn't know that.

But can I ask you a question?

Mazura

By all means.

Rathony

You are the second close-voter and why bother to answer it?

Mazura

8:53 AM

This discussion, and read the comments.

It's why I brought it up.

Rathony

But the question will be deleted by delete voting.

Mazura

I'm not entirely clear about auto delete, I've read the faqs and the metas though.

Rathony

No, we vote to delete.

When you have more than 10K reps.

I cast 503 delete votes and almost all of them have been deleted.

I am not sure how much % was deleted by voting and auto delete, but

Mazura

Oh, well then. Until then, it took me thirty seconds to LMGTFY for anyone who comes across it in the meantime.

Rathony

That means you know the question will be closed and possibly deleted.

But you don't like any question without any answer.

That's why you posted an answer?

Mazura

8:58 AM

Anyone who thinks it's not useful is delusional. The downvotes were to punish me, and perhaps rightfully so.

Rathony

I understand community wiki answer doesn't affect your reputation, right?

Mazura

Exactly. and correct.

Rathony

Let me use it when I expect a heavy downvote.

Mazura

But it would show in my profile with it's votes in my top w\e.

Rathony

Let me use it when I expect heavy downvotes.

I see.

Mazura

9:00 AM

That, or when I past a quote and add noting, I feel it's appropriate.

It got 2 ups 4 downs. so meh.

My nuke CW is my fav LMGTFY.

25

A: Word for destructive light from a nuclear explosion?

Nuclear weapons emit large amounts of thermal radiation as visible, infrared, and ultraviolet light, to which the atmosphere is largely transparent. This is known as "Flash". –Wikipedia

So it works both ways.

That was an easy 250 rep. But how many people said, ok w\e it's a CW.

Rathony

What does "2 revs, 2 users 86%" mean?

Mazura

I also do it for ones I'm tried of being bothered by +1 every 5 mins.

It can be retroactive.

Rathony

Since you are happier when you are not bothered than when you receive 10 points?

Mazura

@Rathony That, I forget. After 4 people edit it, it takes away the avatar.

I don't like it for clunkers.

crl

what does the 86% correspond to?

Mazura

9:05 AM

86% of the content is the displayed user's work I think.

Rathony

@crl Hi, crl

crl

Do we know each other?

Hi

Rathony

I don't think I saw your user name before.

Mazura

There's only so much dopamine I can handle at a time. Asking questions is rough. Comment this. Comment that. Edit this. Edit that. You suck. Be nice. - I'd much rather stir the pot.

crl

oh, sometimes I come, to ask some English questions to the sages here

Rathony

9:09 AM

I see. Not active on ELU?

crl

not really much, more a programmer:) but both aren't incompatible

Rathony

@Mazura I should have used wiki for this answer

This one english.stackexchange.com/questions/311528/…

Can you change it to wiki?

Mazura

In edit, yes. But why that one?

Rathony

many downvotes

Mazura

It's fairly good. The Q sucks.

Rathony

9:14 AM

The OP is one of the most popular questioner on ELU. Believe it or not.

Mazura

I declined to vote because I TL:DR all of that.

I remember that answer though.

Rathony

what answer? mine?

Mazura

That's when you use the wrong idiom "nip it in the BUTT".

"cut that shit out"

Rathony

Ha ha ha

cut that shit out

indeed.

There could be many more.

Mazura

That's why. too broad.

Rathony

9:17 AM

Yeap.

Now I understand why some users hate word or idiom request questions.

When I edited this question, I didn't expect it to survive english.stackexchange.com/questions/310780/…

180 upvotes for the answer. Wow

Mazura

I refused to stop and sound out what they're talking about. I guess it's something to look into?

Rathony

I meant the question is too broad and the answer is not relevant to the question, actually.

Mazura

Hey, there's a time limit before you can protect a question? How long?

Rathony

I am not sure, 24 hours?

I was chided for protecting too many questions.

@ValentinTihomirov Hi, Valentin

I recognize your name.

@Mazura Any reason to ask?

Mazura

Did @crl have a question?

Rathony

9:29 AM

Nope. didn't ask any question.

Valentin Tihomirov

@Rathony I am flattered

Rathony

Ha ha ha. Nice to see you here @ValentinTihomirov

Mazura

@Rathony 24hs. That's what Mitch guessed when I asked him to do one and couldn't.

Rathony

I see.

Maybe it is a different privilege.

between moderators, special members and users like me or Mitch.

What question is that?

@ValentinTihomirov Regarding your Meta question, I think you misunderstood how ELU works.

Mazura

@Rathony No idea by now. Somewhere just above my first @ at you today?

Valentin Tihomirov

9:32 AM

I understand quite well. You need to provide meaningless copy-paste from OED if you want your questions to survive.

This consituates the 'research'.

Mazura

That's what we're here for. To be pedantic about it.

Valentin Tihomirov

Sounds like OED affiliation.

Mazura

I hate OED.

Use TFD.

Unless you want to look up stuff in British...

Valentin Tihomirov

I want to look up for Etymology.

Mazura

I don't really know how to look those up either. you have a point.

Rathony

9:36 AM

@ValentinTihomirov You can ask any etymology question on ELU, but you need to show us some research.

chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/27994869#27994869 here? @Mazura

Valentin Tihomirov

Stop trolling. I have demonsrated you what constituates your 'research'. You are bunch of dirty formalists.

Mazura

When I search etos it's hit or miss and reverse dictionaries don't work for crap.

@Rathony Nope it's way after that. might not be ready anyway.

Rathony

@ValentinTihomirov I was suspended using those kind of words. Better be careful.

Valentin Tihomirov

As an average person learning English and a bit of Greek/Latin, I realize suddenly that some words might be related. I go to internet and the best that I can find about their etymology is OED. But, it stops somewhare, without demonstrating me the connection. I resort to other, more informed people at ELU. But, they close my questions because OED does not contain the answer and they need it to let informed people to answer. That is absurd.

Rathony

@ValentinTihomirov What makes you think ELU can answer better than OED?

I think that's the start of your misunderstanding.

Valentin Tihomirov

9:42 AM

Nothing. Once you deny informed people to answer at ELU, ELU cannot answer better.

Mazura

Don't use OED for etymology. There's better sites for that. Somewhere there's a meta with some site links but like I said I don't do those.

Rathony

Exactly. Then, why do you bother to ask such a question on ELU Meta?

Most of etymology questions are answered by OED or Wikipedia or etymonline.com/… @ValentinTihomirov

Mazura

That's prob the one.

Rathony

Some native speakers know Latin, Greek, Hebrew, etc. and they can add more value.

Some know French, German, Italian, and so on. They can also help you

But what's the point of criticizing ELU for not being able to help you when we can't?

Valentin Tihomirov

I would not bother if you put that explicitly at the welcome page of ELU. Just tell that you deny the research going deeper than EOL and Wikipedia and I will be fine. The problem is that I must presume this by trial-and-punish.

Normal person would use english language community exactly to go deeper.

Rathony

9:46 AM

But you won't get as much quality answer as ELU at Yahoo answer.

ELU Help Center clearly states all the rules and guidelines of ELU.

english.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask

Have you thoroughly searched for an answer before asking your question? Sharing your research helps everyone. Tell us what you found and why it didn’t meet your needs. This demonstrates that you’ve taken the time to try to help yourself, it saves us from reiterating obvious answers, and above all, it helps you get a more specific and relevant answer!

Mazura

The question has been deleted?

Rathony

What question? About will and shall?

Valentin Tihomirov

If I can get the answer at OED, I won't go to the language community. Now, you control the community to ban such and only appropriate etymology questions. That is total absurd.

Mazura

@Rathony @ValentinTihomirov'S

Rathony

What question are you talking about?

Mazura

9:49 AM

Valentin's.

Rathony

Was any of your question deleted? @ValentinTihomirov

Valentin Tihomirov

what is the point of asking that if you say that site policy is all right?

Rathony

@ValentinTihomirov I asked about the etymology of virginity like this. english.stackexchange.com/questions/290692/…

It is not a model question, but it was well received with an excellent answer.

Mazura

That's not protected?

Rathony

You mean my question?

Mazura

9:51 AM

pfffft Re: my keyword list

That word'd be on it.

Rathony

@Mazura I don't get it. sorry

Mazura

For auto protect.

Rathony

There is no auto-protection mechanism as far as I understand.

Mazura

These people can script anything.

It's SE yo.

Rathony

@ValentinTihomirov You can ask any etymology question and they are welcome.

Valentin Tihomirov

9:53 AM

@Rathony One of my 3 questions has also received an excellent answer, where informed person supplied the material that I could not find in the OED, but it did not preclude the policy standard closing it afterwards.

Rathony

But you have to do your own research first.

@ValentinTihomirov Closing the question doesn't necessarily mean the community doesn't like your question.

Closing the question means your question is not up to the guidelines of this community.

0

Q: Is 'breadth' related to 'broad'?

Recently, I was informed that introverts look for depth of knowledge whereas extorverts are about breadth of knowledge. This positions horizontal breadth or width as orthogonal direction to the vertical depth so that I started to think that broadness and breadth are not only semantically but etym...

etymology

This question, you need to include your own research.

etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=breadth

Valentin Tihomirov

I asked you to stop trolling.

Rathony

etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=broad

Then, what is it you don't understand?

You can edit your question and we will vote to reopen it.

Valentin Tihomirov

Otherwise, you could explain why including some non-informative garbage in my question makes it better.

Rathony

This will be my last comment to you @ValentinTihomirov

Spend more time on ELU. That's it.

Mazura

9:58 AM

He's not trolling. He's explaining how ELU works. well actually... it's the good kind.

10

A: What do you call someone who is addicted to a Q&A website?

New and Improved; Made-Up Definitions: Altruistic Vampire -one who subsists on the dopamine released when they help another; for whatever personal motivation: an addict of altruism; someone addicted to answering questions online. -Similar and often found in conjunction, though not to be confu...

mmmm dopamine.

Valentin Tihomirov

I do not understand why do you call the copy-paste from EOD, which does not answer the question, 'a research'. I could include a piece of some inappropriate article from Wikipedia with the same success. I refuse to add meanengless garbage, to clutter my question to make it formally better.

Mazura

Take this one for example.

-3

Q: Germination of Hermeneutics

I see that both germination and Hermineutics tell me about the origin. They also sound similar. Can you prove that that this is a coincidence and they are not relative words.

etymology

Valentin Tihomirov

Explaining how the flawed system works and insisting of following the wrong rule is not good.

Rathony

@ValentinTihomirov If you don't want to follow the rule, why bother to stay here? Go somewhere else where it is not required.

There are hundreds of English sites. Why do you bother?

Mazura

@ValentinTihomirov You're supposed to have supplied us with the links or quotes to both those words, showing that they don't both originate from Latin (they do right?) so why would they sound the same, otherwise wouldn't they?

Valentin Tihomirov

10:03 AM

There are thouthands of unkonwn football championships. Why to bother about World Chempion Cup that we own? Go for a community which attracts 1 view per 10 days. This is basically what you say.

Mazura

Either way I'd have to look them both up so...

Rathony

@ValentinTihomirov How much do you have to pay to watch UEFA championship games compared with your local football game?

If you want to watch UEFA league game, there is a price you have to pay. Why is it so difficult to include your own research?

Valentin Tihomirov

@Mazura I do not know. Linguists dislike when some linguistics-illiterate boys, like me, ask to check some two words for relationship. Linguists often say that these words are not related PERIOD. I ask for a proof. How do you know that they are unrelated?

Rathony

How do you know they are related? Are fuck and buck related?

Do you have any evidence they are related?

Is Saddam Hussein and Barak Hussein Obama related?

What is your question?

Valentin Tihomirov

@Rathony You must be slow. I explained you why. I told you that I do not want to clutter my question with meaningless garbage. It is very strange 'price', especially when it is supposed to raise the quality.

Rathony

10:07 AM

Then, go to other sites.

Your question will be closed.

It's simple as that.

Valentin Tihomirov

When you compare fuck with buck or saying that it is impossible to reduce 'Hussein' to one root, you are trolling again.

Rathony

OK. As I said, I will stop trolling or whatever. Actually I feel like I am wasting my time. You do whatever you want.

Don't troll the site.

Valentin Tihomirov

Is fault and default etymologically related? -- You should not ask such questions, it is like asking if fuck is etymologically related to buck. Go to another site.

Rathony

You will never be able to change the policy or guidelines of this community.

Even if they are absurd or a bunch of garbage to you.

Valentin Tihomirov

Sure. Rules exist to fullfill them. Mere mortals are not allowed to discuss them.

There are special men to establish the rules.

Mazura

10:14 AM

They're called manuals of style. I don't use 'em.

Valentin Tihomirov

Yes, they come from Gods. We, as scientists, must obey them.

Mazura

Well... that's enough dope for me. Did we all have fun? (and learn something?) - Laters all.

Rathony

@Mazura Nice talking to you. See you around.

@ValentinTihomirov Nice talking to you, too. Good luck.

Rathony

10:28 AM

I didn't close-vote it as I didn't have any vote left. Please review this question for close-voting for unclear or lack of research. english.stackexchange.com/questions/311278/…

user66288

12:28 PM

Hi everyone

IͶΔ

2:38 PM

Hi everyone

. . . or not

@Mazura That takes some digging. :/

It must be in one of those proposals I linked to, or in one of the links in the proposals I linked.

Leuchte

3:42 PM

Hi

How would you finish this sentence?:

A design that appeals to my...

IͶΔ

. . . toes?

Leuchte

:)

e.g.:

sense of style?

IͶΔ

Just style.

Mitch

@IͶΔ not. it's 'not'. I'm not here either.

IͶΔ

Or nut

Mitch

3:50 PM

@Leuchte or "a design that appeals to me'

@IͶΔ nut if you're allergic

Leuchte

Ok thank you :)

Mitch

It's demonstrably provable that all distinct words in all the words lexica eventually derive, through semantic and phonological drift, through one single utterance 'om', the transcendental breath of universal life. The sun at noon is the sun declining, the creature born is the creature dying. — Mitch 15 hours ago

words -> world's

IͶΔ

@ValentinTihomirov Whoa there.

@ValentinTihomirov Yeah sure.

@ValentinTihomirov Yes they are. That's why Stack Overflow is Stack Overflow.

@Rathony If three answers get deleted as VLQ, the bot will protect the question instantly.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…