English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Matt Эллен

17:00

anyway - must go!

user19161

@aediaλ I feel tingling when I touch smooth paper.

Mahnax

Bye all.

Kitḫ

@Martha ! smooch

user19161

@Mahnax Enjoy lunch!

aedia λ

@Marthaª Some of the things from my question seem to have gone, but Kmart is using it prominently

user19161

17:01

@MattЭллен Enjoy dinner!

aedia λ

It was a physical mailer that initially prompted the question... I think the Peapod one.

Marthaª

@Kitḫ Hi @Kitḫ!!!

aedia λ

> $6 & up Fleece Accessories, Was from $12.50

was from is another nonsensical thing (Lands End)

Cerberus

hands on hips What did I say about fleece?

Kitḫ

@aediaλ That is completely sensical.

Also, "Shop Kmart" = "Shop at KMart"

"shop appliances" = "shop for appliances"

So there must be something interesting going on with dropping prepositions.

Ha ha ha. I just read my comment on NoHat's answer.

It's funny because I was just thinking the same thing when I read his answer just now.

I completely forgot the entire interchange.

Marthaª

17:14

Kmart needs to work on their programming. Their animation is paging through the main pictures at a rate of one per second.

Kitḫ

Barf. So many of those big box store sites have just crap web sites.

aedia λ

@Martha And, I know this isn't what you're looking for at all, but the only other unique thing I can think of is this ridiculous See Something, Say Something security theater ad campaign we have on Metro down here.

@Cerberus Hey I didn't say I was going to buy it!

looks sheepish and sits on fleece scarf again

Marthaª

@aediaλ I'm not sure I understand why that's ridiculous. Grammatically, it looks unremarkable to me.

Cerberus

@aediaλ scowls

aedia λ

@Marthaª It's ridiculous for reasons other than the phrasing (which is why I said it wasn't what you're looking for). I can't find too many good pictures.

The weirdest ones are more like this.

On station walls and trash cans.

Cerberus

17:18

Hahaha wow.

aedia λ

There'll be a "suspicious" bag with fake googly eyes and mustache on it and a talk balloon.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@aediaλ The terrorists have already won.

Marthaª

@aediaλ Ah, ok, I see. That elephant is definitely, um, weird.

aedia λ

And it's not like you have time to take a picture of the QR code in the crush of your commute... which is also why I don't have any photos of the ones I see every day, because I am too busy trying to make the bus.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Clearly, terrorism found dominion.

Kitḫ

17:21

Come on, user! I know you had an error. You are supposed to send me an email!

aedia λ

One day they were even leafleting IN THE STATION where they don't allow normal people to leaflet and the useless brochures were littered everywhere and they were blocking the escalator trying to shove this brochure in my face and I almost lost it.

Kitḫ

Did you see the bit about the numbers? 185 reported unattended bags, none of them dangerous.

aedia λ

I know.

Kitḫ

What a useless campaign.

aedia λ

Most of the time the staff don't even want to hear it if you tell them about anything that might be a problem, either.

I hope some of those bags were the fake bags in the ads.

Kitḫ

17:23

Probably understaffed and underpaid.

aedia λ

That would serve them right.

Well, yeah.

Kitḫ

And overabused.

"See something strange?" "Yes, a weird elephant painted on the wall..."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ underabused

JSBᾶngs

i'm hungry. is it too early to eat lunch?

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs I ate mine already, or I'd share.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:24

@JSBᾶngs I was just thinking the same thing. rumble rumble goes my tummy

JSBᾶngs

i have lunch, i'm just reluctant to crack it open so early

well, it's close to 11:30. we'll call it even.

Kitḫ

Early? It's 12:30. Right on time!

aedia λ

But it's not like, improving your image to act like your poorly paid, untrained staff will magically be responsive to people's problems.

The customer service-oriented things I've seen have paid better, but measured quality and insisted staff perform to professional standards.

hippietrail

i believe i was summoned? (-:

aedia λ

I just want to throw these stupid elephants at our Metro's management.

/rant

Kitḫ

17:29

OK, so rather than crash, I handled that exception gracefully. But why hasn't my user emailed me to let me know there is a problem?

Why, user, why?

aedia λ

@Cerberus My actual winter hat is made from a real sheep, with soft leather outside and fuzzy bits inside. Is that better or worse than fleece?

user19161

@jsb Did you try my login method?

Cerberus

@aediaλ Better!

hippietrail

hey there @Cerberus

user19161

@JSBᾶngs 11.30 is too early for lunch.

Cerberus

17:31

@hippietrail Hi! In fact you summoned me.

user19161

@Kitḫ 12.30 is a good time for lunch.

hippietrail

yeah i did but i found out you either weren't a demon or i mispronounced your name (-;

aedia λ

@Kitḫ Deer pogromer, ur app no wurk. But den it does. Kthxbai.

user19161

-2

Q: Difficulty with 'a' or 'an'

I have extreme difficulty to choose between a or an! E.g.: "I have a doubt." or "I have an doubt"... What's the right grammar? Is there a basic and easy-to-remember rule? I know it has to do with consonants or vowels.

grammar

user19161

Duplicate.

hippietrail

17:33

but yeah if there's anything else we should say about singular/plural/mass/countable/uncountable/blah blah it's better here than in long comment threads so they tell me

a/an must be close to the top of the faq right?

Cerberus

@hippietrail I suppose.

hippietrail

actually not. instead it's this infrequently asked question:

2

Q: What does "left for dead" mean?

I'm not a native speaker. Also, I play video games. :P When the video game Left 4 Dead came out I thought the phrase was just a cool but largely meaningless title that hinted at the game being about zombies. I, since then, found out it was a real phrase, but I'm still unsure as to what it really...

meaning phrases

Cerberus

I believe you objected to calling "water" singular in "water is transparent"?

hippietrail

it's not really an objection unless you're ranting and making threats

user19161

@mahnax You're back!

hippietrail

17:36

otherwise it's more of a clarification or disambiguation

Mahnax

@JasperLoy We're doing research in Science.

Cerberus

But, you see, calling "water" non-singular sounds strange to me.

user19161

@mahnax Read the last two comments on the bf/gf question after the question itself.

Cerberus

In fact I object to it, hah!

Mahnax

@JasperLoy I shall.

hippietrail

17:37

there's a thing where the number of forms or a word don't match the number of syntactic uses for them (which i can't seem to put into words well)

Cerberus

Eh...

hippietrail

no i'm not calling it singular or plural, in fact it depends on context

"some guys" is plural, "some water" is mass, "some data" is ambiguous, "some sheep" is ambiguous but in a different way

Cerberus

> "some water" is mass

Does that mean it is not singular?

hippietrail

it doesn't mean that it's singular or plural

Cerberus

Yes or no?

hippietrail

17:39

it refers to a different attribute

it's not a yes/no question

Cerberus

But I asked whether it was singular or plural.

Or neither.

user19161

@Mahnax You now have 5 stars on ctfd! The two comments are from me and Jon. I wonder what he was thinking.

Cerberus

Or both.

hippietrail

it's like me asking you is "walked" a past tense or past participle without giving you a context

Cerberus

Then the answer is "both".

So that is your answer: "water" can be non-singular?

hippietrail

17:40

no the answer is more like "it depends" or "it's not that simple"

no i'm saying it's not the right question to ask

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Oh wow! I didn't even realize it was starred.

I should pay more attention.

hippietrail

because there's not just one meaning for "singular"

Cerberus

Ah.

Mahnax

@hippietrail Or ctfd.

user19161

@Mahnax That comment was weird right? But since he mentioned it so I asked.

Mahnax

17:41

@JasperLoy It was odd.

Cerberus

And you were going to explain these meanings.

hippietrail

it's like saying is "were second person or third person?"

Cerberus

Because I know of only one meaning of "plural" as I explained in the comments.

user19161

@Mahnax At first I thought it's a joke on the question but it seems real. Maybe he was high.

hippietrail

well if you are talking about inflection then water is singular and waters is plural

Mahnax

17:42

@JasperLoy Hmm... He must have been purdy high.

Cerberus

What other kind of plural is there?

hippietrail

if you are talking about the stuff then you are talking semantically in which case it doesn't make sense to talk about singular or plural for mass nouns

Mahnax

I sent ten puns to friends, in hopes that one would make one laugh; avast, no pun in ten did.

user19161

@Mahnax Indeed! I wonder what he will say, or someone might even flag them or delete them.

Cerberus

Singular and plural are syntactic categories, nothing more.

Mahnax

17:43

@JasperLoy Flag the comments?

Cerberus

You're never talking about stuff when you use those terms.

user19161

@Mahnax Avast is an antivirus you know? Together with Avira and AVG.

hippietrail

they are also the names of inflected forms

Cerberus

That is the same.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Hmm. For me, it's just a pirate term.

user19161

17:44

@Mahnax As not constructive or something like that.

user19161

@Mahnax But on Windows I recommend using MSE.

hippietrail

i think you need to ask a linguist because i just lack the way to explain it sorry

user19161

@hippietrail Cerb is an expert!

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Ah. Someone deleted my comment on that question about the non sexual, close-to-marriage single word request.

Okay, I'm leaving. This is too distracting.

Cerberus

Okay, well, I think you are trying to use "singular" for semantic features, while I contend that it is a syntactic feature only.

hippietrail

17:45

how many forms does "exist" have? how many forms does "be" have?

Cerberus

Forms?

hippietrail

it's also a feature of an inflected word

exist exists existed existing

Cerberus

Ah.

Well, just count those forms?

I don't see how that is relevant.

hippietrail

the third is both the past tense and the past participle. it does two jobs

Cerberus

So?

hippietrail

17:47

let's look at eat

eat eats ate eaten eating

Cerberus

Plural/singular aren't forms in that sense.

hippietrail

it has five forms

Cerberus

Yes.

hippietrail

different number of forms map to different numbers of uses. the same can happen with nouns

Cerberus

I still don't see the relation between forms and the plural/singular distinction here.

hippietrail

17:49

maybe "read" is a better example. if i say 'is "read" past yes or no' it's not a meaningful question

Cerberus

Sheep has one form, but it can be either singular or plural.

hippietrail

exactly

Cerberus

Water, however, has a form that is exclusively singular.

hippietrail

advice has one form but it can't be singular or plural because it's only a mass noun

Cerberus

I disagree.

It is singular because it agrees with singular verbs.

hippietrail

17:51

then somehow i'm just not able to find a way for you to see the other dimension

Cerberus

You are talking about semantics, but I don't think that has anything to do with singular/plural.

hippietrail

but it agrees with mass adverbs

Cerberus

What?

What are those?

hippietrail

like little, much, less not count adverbs like few, many, fewer

Cerberus

Yes, so?

How are those related to plural/singular?

hippietrail

17:52

it's another kind of agreement in english

Cerberus

A jar of pickles is singular, even though it contains lots of pickles.

hippietrail

it's another dimension apart from singular vs plural

Cerberus

Fine.

But then it should not interfere with the plural/singular distinction at all.

hippietrail

"a fish" = singular, "two fish" = plural, "some fish" = mass

user19161

Or two fishes.

Cerberus

17:54

Some fish = mass & singular in "there's still some fish left in the pan", but plural in "some fish escaped my nets".

hippietrail

yes indeed because fish has no plural form in some senses and has both mass and countable senses

Cerberus

But in the mass case, it is always singular.

hippietrail

no "some fish jumped out of the water" is singular, "some fish taste good" is plural, and "there's still some fish left in the can" is mass

it always take the singular form yes

Cerberus

I think we have a fundamental disagreement about the definition of "singular".

To me, it is a word that agrees with singular verbs and does not have a marker of plurality.

hippietrail

i think there is more than one definition of "singular"

user19161

17:57

Many arguments are but about definitions.

Cerberus

@hippietrail I don't think there ought to be.

hippietrail

to me all of this stuff is not intrinsic to words or languages, but concepts invented by people to aid thinking and talking about them

Cerberus

Of course.

But this one definition has been established for millennia.

hippietrail

can you quote it for me so we can analyse it?

Cerberus

I can't.

But I told you what it is: a noun that agrees with singular verbs.

It should also have a singular ending if available.

hippietrail

18:00

well singular and plural also apply to verbs and to pronouns

Cerberus

Yes.

For verbs, the definition is the reverse: a verb that agrees with a singular noun.

hippietrail

it can also describe words in other languages than english that may have fewer or different forms

Cerberus

Yes.

hippietrail

so how would you define count or mass in the grammatical or linguistic sense?

it's just a trait of the english language that it packs more than one kind of attribute into some inflectional endings (and leaves a lot more out)

Cerberus

You could define a countable noun morpho-syntactically: "can have an indefinite article and can be pluralized".

hippietrail

18:03

hey i'm really hungry i'm going to run out and grab a hot snack but i'll be back

Cerberus

An uncountable/mass noun, the opposite.

Heh OK.

hippietrail

i wonder if it's a more fun debate to have in the linguistics chat room. maybe more people there than here will have insights. or maybe the other's will voice theirs while i'm getting food (-:

Cerberus

Heh good idea.

Cerberus

18:22

@MrShinyandNew: If you can come up with regex that does what you need, I can easily make an AHK script for you that auto-applies the regex as you type.

myregexp.com

You can test it here.

hippietrail

18:34

well i was too late for hot food but i found a cheap authentic local restaurant for next time

user19161

18:51

@Cerberus I did not know you are so good at programming.

user19161

@hippietrail Hot as in chilli?

hippietrail

hot as in straight out of the oven

got a sandwich instead

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Wel it's not very hard with AHK!

user19161

@Cerberus So you are still nocturnal these days?

user19161

@hippietrail Some food is nicer when cold, like salad.

Kitḫ

19:07

Warm salads are nice.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I think I agree with @hippietrail that mass nouns are neither singular nor plural.

Kitḫ

Like plaar nur, for example.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'd say it'd be clearer to think of the verbs having singular, plural, and mass agreement, and mass is usually the same as singular.

And "Singular" means "there is one of it", "plural" means "there is more than one of it" and mass means "you can't count it, there is some or none of it"

But I'm not a linguist so I can't say what the linguists think about all this.

hippietrail

i'm not a linguist either which is probably what makes putting it in words so difficult

to me you think of one or multiple or "some" things or stuff and then when you want to say or write it you have to fit it into the exact rules of the grammar when is when you switch from semantic concepts to english grammar and hence inflections and agreement

(but i also don't believe too strongly in linguistic universals or chomskyism deep vs surface stuff)

"discrete" is a good way to think of things can have plural/singular distinction at the semantic level. can't think of a good opposite though

(or is it discreet? spellcheck lets both go)

if it's discre(e)t(e) at the semantic level it will be subject to the rules of singular/plural at the morphological level; if not it will not be subject to those rules, so the unmarked forms will be used. in english singular and mass are not marked but plural is marked

aedia λ

19:30

@hippietrail You want discrete. I remember them sort of this way: discrete is separate distinguishable things, like how Crete is an island, and discreet is all double letter-y 'cause, well, shhhhhh it's a seeeecret and you don't want to be indiscreet and make someone say eek.

My brain too asleep is to mass count noun plural singular discussion entangle myself in.

runs away to coffee machine again

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@aediaλ that reminds me, I put some coffee on...

mmm mostly-warm coffee

kiamlaluno

Is there anybody for a quick question about a phrase meaning?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@kiamlaluno may as well ask :)

kiamlaluno

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Do you have a question about a phrase meaning too? Is there a queue for that? :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:45

@kiamlaluno No, I meant you may as well ask, and if there is someone, they will answer

Unless you meant "I feel like answering a quick phrase meaning question, anyone got one?"

kiamlaluno

If somebody says, "it's two months that we are fighting," does that mean, "we keep fighting every day, from two months"?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 So if I say "Is there anybody for a hot dog?" I am really asking if somebody has a hot dog to offer me.

(It's too much time that I don't use the chat.)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@kiamlaluno "It's two months that we are fighting" is not grammatical to me if referring to past /continuing events.

It should be "we have been fighting for two months"

Or "it has been two months since we started fighting"

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Then when is "mass" not the same as singular?

kiamlaluno

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't recall the used sentence. I should check it. :-)

Cerberus

@MrS and @Hipp: I don't mean to be rude, but I think your definitions of "singular" and "plural" are vague intuitions, a bit naïve.

Is "a jar of pickles" plural?

Kitḫ

19:53

There is a man just outside my window kindly sharing his harmonica playing with all of us.

Cerberus

A flock or birds?

A trio?

Is the USA plural?

You are running into great trouble with naïve definitions.

Linguistics works with concrete, predictable tests.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I didn't say it ever has different verb agreement. But it has different adjective agreement.

Cerberus

That is not really agreement.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus My definitions, however, are not based purely on grammatical features.

Cerberus

Then what are they based on?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:56

These concepts are more than just grammar

Cerberus

But I have no objections to using little v. few to define these things. But then do so.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I disagree.

Just a morpho-syntactic category.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm saying that philosophically, something which is uncountable can never be singular or plural.

Cerberus

Why?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

because those imply counting it.

Cerberus

I don't see why.

There is only one Earth. Is it countable?

I'd say no, because there is only one.

Just like love.

You might disagree, and we are in an inextricable mess.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…