English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

17:31

@AndrewLeach You could allow hotlinking as long as you are below a certain monthly data usage.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus so could you

Cerberus

Indeed.

@Robusto Dag is only Dutch. It means day, and it can be short for goedendag "good day".

When preceding an address, it can be salutory or valedictory.

When it's just dag, it can be a greeting in passing or a valediction.

Matt E. Эллен

18:04

what a dag

Cerberus

Thank you.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

You like dags?

Dags, do you like dags?

SmokeDetector

18:23

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in title: FREE***Reading vs Derby County Live Games by Papri Love on english.stackexchange.com

Robusto

@Cerberus I suppose it's like "morning" in English, which can be a greeting (abbreviation of "Good morning").

One of the benefits of being a native speaker is that one has only to read the sentence carefully to understand it. No four-step procedure necessary (or if it is, it is transparent to the reader). Writings I still can't understand after reading through carefully I simply dismiss as not worth the trouble. — Robusto 1 min ago

Cerberus

@Robusto Yes. We have goedemorgen, shortened to morgen, pronounced sloppily like môgə.

Robusto

I agree with Prof. Lawler. It's nothing more than a way for educators to cover their asses with quantifiable results. I have seen plenty of high school graduates who could read "at grade level" but for all practical purposes were functionally illiterate. YouTube comments are full of them. — Robusto 44 secs ago

Cerberus

Then students picked up the term with a special connotation: the myth goes that students who were still drinking at 7 AM said "good morning" to the workers who arrived to work on the building; then "morning" because a kind of "to good health", to be said at any time of day before having a beer.

@Robusto You don't need to be a native speaker for that sentence. You just need to be able to read English well.

I'm sure many native speakers fail that test, and the other way around.

Robusto

@Cerberus Well, you probably read it with something like native-speaker alacrity. My point is that if a sentence is too complicated for me to parse even after I slow down and give it my full attention, it's probably not worth my time.

Mitch

18:39

@Cerberus So WTH is "Moin moin'?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

hey @Cerb I learned something about how Ara is handling their tricky driver situation. They're relying on class drivers. That is, the hardware will need to speak a special protocol that is already known to the OS. This is what USB does, so that every mouse works with every OS. It has some good advantages but also some major drawbacks, in that if your device doesn't fit into one of the existing classes, it can't be used.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The price we pay for plug and play.

Cerberus

@Robusto I know what you mean. But you know what I mean.

@Mitch It's English.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto well, yeah... but at least on PCs, there's the possibility of installing drivers to extend what the OS can do

Robusto

@Cerberus We know what we mean. But we know what we mean.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:40

not so on phones

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OK good to know. So do you know of any examples where this is a problem with USB?

And is there no way around that?

Mitch

@Cerberus If by English you mean Northern German.

Cerberus

@Robusto Quite so. We can be mean.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah. Phones are gimped computers. I really hate that I can't get into things with dev tools the way I can on a desktop PC.

Cerberus

@Mitch I'm not entirely sure what you mean, if you were serious.

@Robusto Why can't you?

Just root your phone.

Robusto

18:42

@Cerberus That just gives me more work to do.

Mitch

@Cerberus So seriously 'moin' is not English as far as I know, I've only ever heard people from northern Germany use it. I'm pretty sure it's not English at all. I don't know enough about Dutch to have any idea if maybe it's a Plattdeutsch thing.

Cerberus

@Robusto Short work.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Sure, look at touchpads. In order to be a "mouse" they translate touches into movement. But in order to be a modern touchpad they have to handle multi-touch gestures

Robusto

@Cerberus Still more.

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, I only know it as some semi-jocular thing in English. It is certainly not Dutch.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:45

That isn't part of the base protocol so you need the touchpad mfr's software, including a driver, to make it work

Cerberus

Plattdeutsch, could be.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

MoinMoin

MoinMoin is a wiki engine implemented in Python, initially based on the PikiPiki wiki engine. Its name is a play on the North German greeting Moin, repeated as in WikiWiki. The MoinMoin code is licensed under the GNU General Public License v2, or (at the user's option) any later version (except some 3rd party modules that are licensed under other Free Software licenses compatible with the GPL). Dozens of organizations use MoinMoin to run public wikis, including free software projects Ubuntu, Apache, Debian, FreeBSD. == Technical details == MoinMoin's storage mechanism is based on flat files and...

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What would happen if you used the USB mouse driver thingy and built in any required lower-level thingies into the module itself?

Robusto

Procol Harum - Still There'll Be More

►

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it isn't really possible

let's say the mouse driver has a notion called "x axis", "y axis", "button n1...nN"

then when someone adds a gesture, where does it go into those concepts?

Robusto

18:47

My son just came home from Japan with a brand-new sushi knife. His middle name is engraved in the blade.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's what she said.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't know: there needs to be a chip inside the touch pad that registers them and converts them into hotkeys to send to the OS?

@Robusto Is it sharp?

Robusto

@Cerberus Does the pope shit in the woods?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You can't just use hotkeys like that.

Cerberus

@Robusto That was in invitation for you to burst out in panegyrics.

Robusto

@Cerberus I will save my encomiums (or, for Cerb, encomia) until after I test it myself. All I have now is the picture.

Cerberus

18:50

*-a

Do test it on a tomato.

Slice it thin enough to see through.

Thank you.

Robusto

@Cerberus I have plenty of knives that will cut tomatoes that thin.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Also mice aren't keyboards, so they don't send keystrokes

Robusto

@Cerberus "plural en·co·mi·ums also -mia "

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I have a mouse that can be programmed to send keystrokes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto well, then the mouse must also implement the keyboard driver class

Robusto

I never liked it, though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:53

which, of course, any USB device can: you could plug in a network adapter that pretends it is a keyboard

Robusto

Yes. The point I'm making is that if you have to choose from among twelve keys with your thumb you might as well just hit the keyboard instead.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Still they can send other input than mere life and right clicks.

@Robusto Barbarous.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

of course, it might be that THAT mouse just sends mouse-button-1 through mouse-button-30 to the mouse driver, and it's the driver that turns that into keystrokes

@Cerberus My point is that the class drivers are always limited

Robusto

Elvis Costello - Big Tears

►

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

there is always hardware that wants to do something the software didn't think of

Cerberus

18:54

My question was, can't you work around that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I already answered that

you typically can't, unless you install more software

and that goes back to the basic problem that Ara faces: the difficulty in making the software work

people will want to buy new modules for old phones or old modules for new phones

Cerberus

Then install more software?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it's fiendishly difficult to keep all the software compatibility issues under control

Cerberus

shrugs

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's not that simple, as I've explained ad nauseum before.

Cerberus

18:56

*-am

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But people can always update software through the Play Store on old phones.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Not kernel drivers though

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 a wiki that says 'Good morning!' is not a wiki I'd be comfortable with.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I'm neither condoning nor condemning it. Just pointing it out.

Cerberus

Whatever software you need can probably in some way be updated.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

nope

Cerberus

18:59

If Google controls the central repository.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Then why can't Google release updated drivers for the Galaxy Nexus so that a proper KitKat kernel can be made for it?

Cerberus

It's not up to Google.

Module makers upload the software to Google's repository.

Google keeps a list of what module works with what software and tells you when you are trying to buy an incompatible module, etc.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

My point is, THAT is the kind of software we are talking about. low-level driver software that manufacturers don't support once they get bored with it.

Cerberus

Then people will see that their modules aren't compatible with their phone and won't buy them.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive body detected: How bad is the use of “n***er” today? by Rodrigo on english.stackexchange.com

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:04

@Cerberus What happens when your phone is only a year or two old, and you want to replace the camera, but all the new cameras require a newer OS than your phone supports? Then you have to replace EVERYTHING.

That's a big part of why build-your-own PC died off, except for high-end gaming. The integrated things are so much cheaper, and upgrading is a fool's game.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or you buy an older camera.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is indeed an issue.

But I still think accessibility is the biggest reason why most people don't replace parts: it takes some time and effort to research what is compatible, and it requires from technical skill to physically replace the part. Those two issues can easily be solved in Google's new project.

By the central repository of parts' telling you what's compatible and what's not.

And by the easy with which you can click in a new module.

That still leaves the issue you mentioned, of course.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It sure seems like either Ara will greatly limit what modules can do, or else they'll have major compatibility problems, unless they can fix the entire module/embedded industry's shitty approach to drivers.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think you have it backward. There's always software wanting to do something that hardware didn't think of. "Why didn't you numskulls expose that?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto Well, both situations are true.

Cerberus

19:33

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm sure an acceptable compromise can be reached.

One that is heaps better than the way we can add and replace modules on our phones now.

Mitch

@Robusto usually the hardare is way ahead of the software. Usually its the case that years later the hardware people say "why didn't you write software to use that? It was available years ago"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:50

@Cerberus well, I guess that's what Google is betting on. I am extremely curious to see how it works out. It's not at all an easy problem.

Fully solving the problem involves, essentially, either convincing the entire Linux community to stabilize their interfaces to allow binary drivers (never gonna happen) OR convincing the entire hardware world to always provide open-source drivers (also never gonna happen)

Mitch

They should split the difference and together do something that's never gonna happen

Robusto

20:10

@Mitch Maybe them hardware guys should fully document what they make.

Mitch

That's a different story

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How about convincing all module manufacturers who want to put their modules up in the Play Store of those things?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it amounts to the same thing

any given "module" is made up of tons of components

not to mention that they then have to commit to maintaining that driver forever.

Mitch

I want the transporter module. It's a little buggy right now because it can transport you up to ten miles away but it it doesn't transport the phone itself. So when you get there you have to walk all the way back

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

just get two phones

I could put one phone at my house, and one at the Lego store near me, and just teleport to the pick-a-brick.

Cerberus

20:25

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not really: they can stop maintaining their driver, but then Google will simply mark it as incompatible with a growing number of other components/software.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

THAT would be dangerous for my wallet.

Cerberus

Living on the edge.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So in order to buy a module you'd have to consult a hardware compatibility list.

OR only buy modules from the Google-curated store.

and when they decide to delist a module, you're screwed.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The latter.

That is exactly what's going to happen: Google checks compatibility, and people buy almost all of their modules through the Play Store.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So, like, right now you can still buy Nexus 5's new in the wild, but not from Google, for some reason.

Cerberus

20:26

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So when Google decides some module is no longer to be sold, poof, it's effectively gone

It seems like a huge bottleneck on the market

Google will need an army of QA people

Cerberus

But, if Google delists as few modules as they delist applications now, that means access to a lot of modules.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I dunno. They've delisted TONS of hardware.

Cerberus

And you can always side-buy a module if you really want to.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Only their own hardware.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus what? no. almost every bit of hardware they've ever sold.

Cerberus

20:28

There never was much hardware to be bought in the Play Store anyway: only their own Nexus devices.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

including the Google Play Editions of various phones

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Which is a tiny number of items.

And, I repeat, only their own hardware.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The GPE phones were not theirs

Not to mention how badly they've managed that part of the business: most of the hardware they've ever offered has been US-only

Cerberus

They were theirsy enough.

Yes, they have managed all that badly.

But there is no reason why Google should delist third-party modules, is there, if they can simply mark them as incompatible when needed?

They would be very unwise to do so.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 or you could setup a delivery service, have the stuff teleported to you.

setting up business plan. technology will come later

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:33

@Cerberus Who knows? What reason did they have for not even offering the GPE devices outside of the US? What reason did they have for not allowing pre-orders of phones: you could only buy the phone if there was stock allocated. What reason did they have for delisting the older phones even though there is clearly stock available?

Their hardware store is one of the worst things they do

So I'm not filled with confidence that THAT is what makes Ara viable.

Cerberus

If they manage the selling of modules badly, then it is managed badly. Yes. Absolutely.

If they make a bad Ara frame, then Ara will be bad.

Etc.

But it can absolutely be done well.

skill patrol

20:59

Well we just had a visit from kit in the physics chat room...

...long time no see.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

gotta run, bye

skill patrol

Later pal

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

21:22

Wordnik needs help!

2

looks for thumbtack

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

21:52

Thank you!

Jez

22:05

Hey guys

what's the term for that phenomenon where you read a word over and over and over and it starts to seem weird, wrongly spelt?

skill patrol

Over-learning?

Jez

nah i dont think that was it

skill patrol

Over-saturated

Analysts paralysis

I just call it burnt out.

Jez

sensory overload

but im sure there's a better term

skill patrol

22:21

enwikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation

Jez

yes that seems to be it

cool

Cerberus

160

Q: Is there a word or phrase for the feeling you get after looking at a word for too long?

Sometimes after looking at a word for a while, I become convinced that it can't possibly be spelled correctly. Even after looking it up, sounding it out, and realizing that there's simply no other way to spell the word, it still looks wrong. Is there a shorthand way to describe this feeling ...

tchrist

Why does no one know what a gerund is anymore?

-1

A: "Demolishing and rebuilding of house." -- are the -ing words gerunds?

A gerund functions as a noun. To use the gerunds correctly you would have to say "The demolishing and rebuilding of the house." I think this is really an abbreviation of the future continuous tense of the verbs - "[The proposal is that we will be] demolishing and rebuilding [the] house". or "....

Robusto

@tchrist Knowing what a gerund is is apparently harder than we thought.

Jez

hmm

"the house's being demolished and rebuilt"

tchrist

22:36

Good luck with that.

Jez

?

tchrist

I don’t reckon a house makes a suitable owner. :)

skill patrol

The house is...

tchrist

@skillpatrol That would be completely different, and no longer a gerund.

Jez

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 It's called Wiktionary, isn't it?

tchrist

22:39

My calling her that night set off a cascade of effects.

That one is a gerund. It has a nice little determiner.

I thought house’s was a possessive.

Jez

gerund is possessive + present continuous

tchrist

I predict sympathy upvotes for the wrong answer.

@Jez Not so much.

A gerund is an untensed verbal inflection.

It can head a clause with subjects, objects, and adverbs, but differs from a finite verb in that it has no tense.

Jez

hmm

then what is the term for the likes of "my being happy..."

tchrist

It’s a gerund clause.

Jez

right

that's possessive + continuous

or something

and i thought pretty much any noun could be possessive

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

22:44

@Jez they're not the same.

tchrist

Call it an -ing inflection and be done with it.

Jez

"Russia's being big is its strength"

tchrist

I don't think people say that sort of thing very often.

Robusto

Me getting my way is what I chiefly need.

Jez

seems grammatically ok though

@Robusto nasty replacement of the possessive with the pronoun

Robusto

22:51

Why nasty?

tchrist

Hardly.

Jez

dunno, i just prefer the possessive

my preferring the possessive is subjective

somehow it just marks off a gerund phrase better

tchrist

We really need people creating new ideas.
People creating new ideas is what we really need.
NOT: *People’s creating new ideas is what we really need.

Jez

well gerund phrases usually describe what's happened

his creating new ideas was helpful

Robusto

Dupe

0

Q: "There are myriad ways" or "there are a myriad of ways"?

The dictionary says both are correct. Which is better?

nouns adjectives

One more vote closes it.

tchrist

22:54

And that’s my twenty-fourth for today.

Robusto

You are a model for us all.

Anonymous

23:22

Hello room.

Anonymous

23:37

Is there any word or phrase that describes a person who uses words of little to no value, only to feel gaps in speech? I don't mean an actual conjunction. But I hear people (often less articulate) who overuse words such as: "like, thing ..".

Anonymous

> I know like some people who like will like use the word "Like" like a hundred times in like an hour. Duhh

Robusto

Small talk

Small talk is an informal type of discourse that does not cover any functional topics of conversation or any transactions that need to be addressed. Small talk is conversation for its own sake. The phenomenon of small talk was initially studied in 1923 by Bronisław Malinowski, who coined the term "phatic communication" to describe it. The ability to conduct small talk is a social skill; hence, small talk is some type of social communication. Early publications assume networked work positions as suitable for social communication. == Purpose == In spite of seeming to have little useful purpose, small...

Read the part about "phatic communication" . . .

Anonymous

Sounds more like an "icebreaker" than what I have mentioned though.

Robusto

23:52

Read the whole thing.

Cerberus

@samayo Filler words?

Filler (linguistics)

In linguistics, a filler is a sound or word that is spoken in conversation by one participant to signal to others that he/she has paused to think but has not yet finished speaking. These are not to be confused with placeholder names, such as thingamajig, whatsamacallit, whosawhatsa and whats'isface, which refer to objects or people whose names are temporarily forgotten, irrelevant, or unknown. Different languages have different characteristic filler sounds; in English, the most common filler sounds are uh /ʌ/, er /ɜː/, and um /ʌm/. Among youths, the fillers "like", "y'know", "I mean", "so", "actually...

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…