English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

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Cerberus

18:00

Look how nicely the senate is divided.

The Brits and their stupid bipartisan system don't get how good this is.

Less cronyism, more actual debate and more serious options to vote for, more different perspectives.

Cerberus

18:37

> rakehelly

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:51

> gesundheit

Johan Larsson

19:12

@Rob if you have time flame with anger. Be nitty, I expect everything to be shit.

Cerberus

19:33

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Did you know that word?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus which, gesundheit? It's what you say when people sneeze

Cerberus

Rakehelly.

I know German.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus nope, never encountered it

Cerberus

OK.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's an English word.

Cerberus

19:34

Then I am not crazy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus now now, let's not say things we can't take back.

Cerberus

You know it is German word, right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus there IS a German word that is a homonym but it's not really the same word.

Cerberus

And you know I know German, right?

And English?

So what are the chances that I would not know it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Never said you wouldn't know it

Cerberus

19:36

And what are the chances of your not knowing a word that you have used yourself?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, as to that, lots of people use words they don't understand

Cerberus

I would not presume to accuse you of that.

Not now anyway.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I am careful, in this room especially, not to use a word unless I'm 99.999% certain of its meaning.

Cerberus

Good.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I've written stuff, then looked up definitions, then clicked "send"

Cerberus

19:38

Haha we all do that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

but sometimes I will use words I don't know the meaning of if it's not important.

Cerberus

People who never do that are...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

but I went almost my whole life using the word gesundheit without knowing its German meaning.

Cerberus

Odd.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm sure if you asked 100 English speakers most of them wouldn't know.

it's just a thing you say.

Cerberus

19:40

Probably related to sane.

It sounds rather German.

But now I must forage.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Oh, they'd know it was German. But not what it means in German.

Cerberus

That makes more sense.

Later!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

s/was/was from/

Cerberus

You lose.

Bye!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I lose?

Cerberus

20:00

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You admitted it is a German word.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:16

@Cerberus I admitted it was a German word :p

Much like the German word Handy is not the same as the English word handy

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hah, no, that was merely the past tense of subordination.

Mitch

20:52

@Cerberus I look up the word, say 'oh shit', then cancel. Just think of all the things I haven't sent

Cerberus

@Mitch Same here!

I was going to say pachycephalosaurus, but then...

Mitch

@Cerberus I've never heard that word before. But looking it up, it's the same as rake (the bro, not the lawn implement)

@Cerberus I've meant that word everytime I've used it. and correctly too

@Cerberus wait, I thought they were multiparty too, what with their liberal democrats and um some other two parties like maybe ... BNP? or is that India?

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, but I wouldn't have guessed that it was the same word, even though Dutch has rekel.

@Mitch You big lizard.

Mitch

@Cerberus well, when running from one.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, they are, but in practice they have two huge parties and a few tiny ones. Before the current government, they never had coalition governments: they always had absolute majorities.

@Mitch Mm I don't think a pachycephalosaurus would attack you. They eat plants.

Mitch

20:58

@Cerberus words can be almost identical sounding and they still aren't perceived as even similar.

Cerberus

Yes!

Mitch

like... thinking of examples

Cerberus

Especially if you perceive different morphemes.

Mitch

slag and slug

Cerberus

Mm in Dutch, both are slak (ish), so...

Mitch

21:00

you mean the snail without a shell and the leftovers from iron smelting?

Cerberus

Or, wait.

Yes, I did.

Metalworking residue is slakken, and snails+slugs are slakken.

Mitch

ok lay and lie are totally confused so that's an example of the opposite.

but back to the matter at hand...

Cerberus

It always surprises me how educated speakers confuse those in English.

In Dutch, they are just as confusing (liggen v. leggen), but it is typically lower class to confuse them.

Leg, legde, gelegd; lig, lag, gelegen.

Mitch

German the same (confusion). All we need now is a Scandinavian

Cerberus

Right.

Probably similar...

The only thing is that Dutch has no two forms that are the same from both paradigms, unlike English lay/lay.

Mitch

21:03

but here is my point about even subtle differences make things hard to know they are the same...

(assume copious examples already discussed)

Cerberus

OK OK.

I agree.

Mitch

even when the sound is identical, it can be hard to tell that two words are the same.

that is even when there is polysemy (lots of dictionary entries for the same 'word'), if they two 'words' (spelled and sounded the same) appear in two different contexts, then it's hard to tell that they are different.

rake and rake is an example (not the best one). at first hearing you want to make a pun. but after you get used to it, they are two totally different words (being cognate is not necessary for this situation)

Do you know what I mean? Or does that just sound too weird?

looking at the word/spelling, it is easy to see that they are identical, but when used in context, there is no question - the two different meanings would never be confused.

so they really are two different things altogether.

I need more slightly differently spelled words... to make the case

Cerberus

21:31

@Mitch Yes, I get it.

And I recognise it, although it depends on context.

Because I believe there is also always a contrary stream in your subconscious that makes it think of vaguely similar sounding words when we hear or utter a certain word.

Which is why you will often hear people use a similar word in a totally unrelated conversation when they are standing next to your conversation at a party or something.

You know what I mean?

They will also use it in a totally different sentence with a different meaning, even.

Related to the general phenomenon of priming, no doubt.

2 hours later…

Johan Larsson

23:09

Rob, you up for a noob question?

Johan Larsson

23:53

solved it