English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:15

-1

A: Old English instead of Latin in early Britain

French is a roman language called semis vulgaris and commonly used by the inhabitans of Gallia Liugdunensis, being the central part of todays France, commonly known as Celtae Gallia. SYRACRIUS established this language as OFFICIAL language in his realm. You might call it old french. THE FRANKS an...

-2

A: Old English instead of Latin in early Britain

Old English comes from Schleswig Holstein northern part of Germany. Its a germanic dialect. THE ROMANS NEVER seized lasting control of Britannia and thus the island was never romanized like Gaul. Saxons and Angles were two strong tribes which outnumbered the celtic people and romans in Britain. T...

And they wonder why we have so many protected questions here, sheesh!

Cerberus

00:52

Drunk?

Kit Z. Fox

How are you feeling today @tchrist?

tchrist

01:43

Ok. Got probably 8h, although not without help and not without waking up at 4:30 to pee. But I went back to bed and refused to get out or think, so fell back to sleep.

Trying to coordinate a funny thing with $job. Being full-time remote has disadvantages when they are trying to send you a 32G file. :)

They've tried 4 different ways so far. If all else fails, it may be USB stick time.

Kit Z. Fox

Wow

tchrist

Did you know that someone in this room turns 0x20 on Sunday?

Kit Z. Fox

Yes.

I think. My younger me.

Because Matty's birthday is today.

tchrist

This is silly.

Cerb's is Sunday, mine is tomorrow.

Kit Z. Fox

Oh!

Aedia's is this month too.

tchrist

01:47

Tight cluster though, us three.

Kit Z. Fox

She's my younger me.

tchrist

Gosh.

Kit Z. Fox

I can't remember which day. I think Washington's birthday, because today is Lincoln's birthday, innit?

Seems like it was something like that.

tchrist

Yes, Feb 12 is Lincoln.

brb.

Cerberus

Hello.

@tchrist You were wrong about my birthday: 32 is still a long way off.

But how would you even remember people's birthdays?

I don't even try, but kudos to you for trying...

Robusto

02:14

Weird, I'm getting authentication errors when trying to chat via the Chrome browser.

So I went to Firefox.

Cerberus

Better.

tchrist

@Cerberus I don’t consider being 5 days away a long ways.

Your birthday is therefore Wednesday.

Cerberus

It is 250% longer.

tchrist

Feb 13 '13 at 16:47, by Cerberus

It's funny how we are 20 years plus five days apart.

Cerberus

Ah.

tchrist

02:18

Which time did you misrepresent reality?

Cerberus

Never.

tchrist

Then you will turn 32 on Wednesday.

Cerberus

2 → 5 = 250%.

I shall.

I should have said "as long".

Robusto

@Cerberus No tienes cultura

Cerberus

Mais si!

tchrist

02:27

El habla culta means educated speech.

crl

que si! queso

Robusto

Mais non, mon petit chien.

crl

my AI can't beat 1024 jsfiddle.net/crl/hmthq78t

tchrist

@crl Casey Casem, the cheesemaster?

crl

:))

Robusto

02:30

@tchrist: It's curious how Spanish uses have and go as helper verbs the way English does: I have to go and *I'm going to be ___________"

crl

jsfiddle.net/crl/hmthq78t/41 with 5x5 grids, I get 2048!

tchrist

@Robusto Does your dualingua course explain why it has to be el habla culta despite its feminitity? :)

Cerberus

growls

tchrist

@Robusto Curious how or why?

Or how it should have come to coincide?

Robusto

Curious that.

@tchrist Not yet. It's long on practice and short on explanation. I think that actually may be a good thing.

Cerberus

02:32

Many modern languages use have + preposition of purpose to indicate an obligation or purpose.

Many modern languages use go + infinitive to indicate the future.

Including French, Dutch...

tchrist

Spanish is the closest in that regard of the Romance languages, in that it uses the same construction virtually identically. French, Portuguese, Catalan work sometimes close but sometimes very differently. So for French, you don't use à after to go the way you do in Spanish, but otherwise it does: tu vas dire qqch.

crl

je vais aller dormir

tchrist

Buena madrugada.

Cerberus

@crl Is it possible to say j'en vais à dormir?

Probably not?

Robusto

@tchrist todavia no es madrugada

tchrist

02:34

Is it s’aller or s’en aller?

crl

@Cerberus hmm no, "je m'en vais", "j'en viens à dormir"

tchrist

@Robusto Para nosotros, no la es, pero para él, me imagino que sí.

Cerberus

Thought so.

Robusto

@tchrist quizás

tchrist

French s'en aller should be just like like Spanish irse.

Cerberus

02:36

@tchrist I don't think s'aller alone is possible...

I meant je m'en vais.

crl

se laisser aller

Cerberus

@crl Right, I suspected as much.

My colleague bought Les Particules élémentaires and another book by Houellebecq in French yesterday.

I have only read Platform, but in English.

Robusto

> You can now read 67.1% of all real Spanish text.

crl

Never read Houellebecq yet

Robusto

I went to the outdoor power equipment store to get SEF today and they had a dozen snowblowers all marked with big SOLD stickers. Boom times for them.

Cerberus

02:49

@crl Not my favourite writer.

But he has some interesting bits.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The Oxygen OS team of developers (the new ROM for the One Plus One) looks like a Benneton ad:

It looks Photoshopped (they live all over the world), but I like it.

tchrist

@Cerberus The French use so many words! That’s simply Me voy in Spanish.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Weird.

Cerberus

@tchrist They love short little words!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How so?

Robusto

@Cerberus Let's see . . . a black guy, a white guy, a Latino guy, and an Asian chick. Check, check, check, check. The diversity bases are covered.

Cerberus

Ding!

Although I suspect the "Latino" guy to have no Indian blood, he's probably Libanese.

tchrist

02:59

I see three white folks and one black folk.

Cerberus

Maybe the black guy needs to be lesbian too.

Robusto

He's a swarthy-ish foreigner, so he can fill in for Latino, Indian, Arab, whatever.

He's a universal donor.

Cerberus

To a Westerner, yes.

Robusto

@Cerberus That is the target market here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's strange to try to make rock-stars out of the dev team for this OS, which they are basically cribbing from CM who cribs from Google.

Cerberus

03:00

@Robusto Quite possibly...although I'm actually not sure what their primary market is, it was never directly for sale here.

Robusto

In fact, the target market for that ad is probably overwhelmingly white male professionals.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, that. Well, Google was basically cribbing from Linus...

Who, in turn...

Robusto

Yeah, people act like Linus Torvalds invented Unix. He did not.

Cerberus

Exactly.

Which leads back to the Greek natural philosophers...

tchrist

Ken and Dennis invented Unix.

Cerberus

03:06

Which leads back to the first Egyptian mathematicians...

tchrist

Linus is fine, but he's no Ken or Dennis.

Cerberus

Although the Greek philosophers and Linus are relatively close together, compared with Egypt.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:19

@Cerberus Well, not really. Google adds tons on top of what Linus provides.

But OxygenOS is just some random phone vendor's in-house flavour of Android.

big whoop

Cerberus

03:40

Sure.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's just a custom ROM, not very interesting in itself.

And it will still have the Google applications.

What will your next phone be?

Mitch

Smoke signals

Cerberus

That's not very phonetic.

Mitch

Use your imagination

Cerberus

03:56

Which head's?

Mitch

Your choice

Wait...forget smoke signals. That's idiotic. just not convenient.

Whale song. That's it. Whale song

Phonetic, right?

Cerberus

Better!

Who will lay down the network, though?

Dig the canals, feed the whales at all the junction points?

I'm talking about the land part of the network.

Mitch

That's the beauty of my idea. Whales are smart, they'll figure it all out.

Cerberus

They will dig the canals?

With little shovels?

Mitch

Don't complicate all this with your 'land' and 'junction points'. You're holding back innovation

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

04:03

I'm on Team Kittens.

Ooh. Sorry, @Cerb!

Mitch

Please vote!

Cerberus

@Mitch Then how?!

Mitch

Cerb is a kitten lover too.

Cerberus

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Don't worry I'm a kitten lover...oh.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I did. It was 3-2 Puppies when I got here.

Yessss.

Cerberus

04:04

Now it's 4–3 for team kittens!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

How are you gentlemen?

Cerberus

Very gentle.

And you?

Mitch

@Cerberus OK. For over land we can use the existing network of dragons. There'll obviously be some interoperability difficulties, and the interaction of the packet switching algorithms will have to be taken into account (the dynamic connection network of dragons is just so different from whales0.

@Cerberus 4-3 team stupid is what I say

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Cerberus Much the same.

Cerberus

@Mitch So...no whales on land? How is that practical??

@Mitch 4–3 team winners.

Mitch

04:07

Dragons, man. Dragons over land.

Cerberus

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I suppose that is good, isn't it?

Have you composed any new tunes of late?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

O_O

Cerberus

@Mitch I don't know.

Can't the dragons do GPS?

I will do SMS.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I was just fetching this video.

I suggest turning down the sound.

Cerberus

Funny.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

04:08

I wouldn't call that a tune per se.

Cerberus

Luckily, I turned it down in time.

Not quite.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I want to flash some LEDs at it.

Cerberus

Do it!

Mitch

@Cerberus Of course not. They know where they are. They also know where you are.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Cerberus I must wait until tomorrow.

Cerberus

04:21

@Mitch So then why can't they guide us, as your GPS network?

Mitch

04:32

@Cerberus They're doing it now. LTE is Leviathan Technology Exchange. The whale dragon tech is already in service.

You snooze, you lose.

Cerberus

Ahh lovely!

waves flag at dragon flying over

And how about peltranes? Are they involved?

*pelgranes

tchrist

Pelerines.

tchrist

04:57

Pelerines peregrinants.

Pelicans peregrinants.

Pettycoats pestiferous.

And pretty maids all in a row.

The pelagic argosy sights land.

infinitesimal

05:46

in Engineering, 2 hours ago, by Sam Weston

@hazzey As the saying goes, mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets

Robusto

10:59

@Mitch And if you snose do you looze?

A Beautiful Mind

12:14

Hey @MattE.Эллен you went to oxhack last night?

Matt E. Эллен

I did. It was relatively quiet for a Thursday, but good people, so I had a good night :)

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен Oxhack in Spanish is Oaxaca, right?

0

Q: 'Orthogonality' in words

The concept of the opposite of a word is well known, for example black/white, on/off. Is there a concept of 'orthogonal' (in Mathematics this means perpendicular), for example red/green, left/forward, wrong/left?

Kris is trolling again.

Matt E. Эллен

aye

@Kris, if you're upset about the question being put on hold, and you have the information and privileges necessary to correct that, it seems strange to demur (I mean, either you're not that upset, or you don't know how to clarify the question in a way that would lift the hold). I also don't know how you know you spent more time reading/considering the question than anyone else (nor why you would spend considerable time re-reading a question you understood the first time round), but that's incidental. — Dan Bron 27 mins ago

Robusto

I added my own comment.

Matt E. Эллен

I see :)

Robusto

12:26

In any case, the question qualifies as a dupe of the other orthogonality question someone commented on.

@Matt: bolshie means left-wing in BrE, right?

terdon

Surely it means communist!

Robusto

I think that's what it originally meant, from bolshevik.

terdon

Which is a far cry from left-wing.

Robusto

Maybe so, but that's the current dictionary definition.

terdon

@Robusto Wha?

Matt E. Эллен

12:30

@Robusto in day to day use it means pushy and argumentative, as far as I know.

terdon

I get "(dated) a Bolshevik or socialist."

Robusto

@terdon thefreedictionary.com/bolshie

terdon

Neither of which can be reduced to simply left wing.

Mitch

I've never dataed a Bolshevik

Robusto

That dates you.

Matt E. Эллен

12:31

@Robusto That's the first I've heard of it :D but it makes sense

I've never troubled to look it up

terdon

@Robusto Wow. I would submit that was written by an American where left wing means something very different than what the rest of the world understands.

Hell, you guys consider the Democrats to be leftish!

They'd be a normal center-right party in Europe.

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен Well, the reason I ask is that in The Economist (latest edition) in a review of Edith Pearlman's latest book of short stories, the reviewer says it is "characterised by prose that is bolshie yet nuanced, elegant but not fussy, stylish without being vain." I surmise that bolshie has to mean more than the dictionary is telling me.

@terdon Not I.

terdon

@Robusto Could be the argumentative meaning.

Matt E. Эллен

@Robusto aye. it seems to be political rather than anything else, there

terdon

@Robusto I was sure you wouldn't.

Since it's being contrasted with nuanced, I think that difficult to manage; rebellious might fit the bill too.

Robusto

12:39

@terdon Well, but that's not really a contrast with nuanced. Nuances can be difficult to manage, maybe even rebellious. Fractious wouldn't necessarily work either. Nuanced doesn't mean serene or compliant.

Perhaps I'll ask this on ELU. Get some BrE maven some rep.

Mitch

@Robusto ooh ooh I have an answer!

Robusto

Go for it.

Mitch

At first I thought this was all GR. But the dictionary doesn't agree so it can go to hell.

Matt E. Эллен

you answer is orthoganal to the door

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен That depends on whether the door is ajar or not. Or maybe on whether it is a jar or not.

Mitch

12:47

People use 'orthogonal' all the time (outside of mathematics) metaphorically to mean 'independent, unrelated'.

Matt E. Эллен

they do

Robusto

@Mitch That's not really the issue. People use words to mean a lot of different things unrelated to strict mathematical definitions.

Mitch

eg "Security and configuration of software systems is orthogonal; they may both be involved with the other but neither is dependent on the other."

Matt E. Эллен

He could just go ahead and use the word and see how people react, that way he'd know for sure

Mitch

@Robusto and that's what the OP is asking (in a very vague way)

Matt E. Эллен

12:49

4 reopen votes...

terdon

Yay! Now we have a full house!

Let me yell aloud what +kris says: NOT HAVING the INTELLECTUAL ABILITY to UNDERSTAND the QUESTION DOES NOT WARRANT CLOSING IT. — Blessed Geek 19 mins ago

Robusto

Well, but even if you use a dictionary definition like "very different or unrelated; sharply divergent," the list of words that qualifies in relation to any other word should be nearly infinite and, therefore, unproductive.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon well, he's wrong. If only one person can understand the question, then by definition everyone else doens't have the intellectual capability to understand it, so it should be closed.

Mitch

the OP really wants to know if 'orthogonal' is used outside of mathematics. It is, but just not as in the examples he gave (lexical semantics have lots of words for subset and related relations, but none for 'kinda related but kinda not')

@Robusto sadly the dictionar(y|ies) don't have the explicit definition I gave (yet!)

Robusto

I'm sure they are sad about that, yes.

Mitch

12:52

people are crying in the streets and you're mocking them. Their mom's are giving you a dirty look.

@Robusto also, sausage lozenge. There, that's al I could come up with.

Robusto

@Mitch That reminds me of a sci-fi short story I read a long time ago.

Mitch

@Robusto Yeah, there's very little affordance for a word to describe the infinity of possibilities like that. So yes, people do use 'orthogonal' but not for the relation between 'straight-left' or 'child-brother'

@Robusto one involving lozenges of sausages?

Sausage flavored breath mints?

OK, that puppy-kitten thing has been beaten to death.

That didn't come out the way I expected.

Matt E. Эллен

that's better. I'd only deleted 2 comments up to then. need my daily fix!

Mitch

Anyway, new controversy: sausage flavored lozenges or lozenge flavored sausages?

Matt E. Эллен

what flavour is a lozenge?

Mitch

12:59

I'd guess minty?

Matt E. Эллен

sausage flavoured lozenge flavoured sausages

Mitch

wintergreen? (whatever that is. probably orthogonal to minty)

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен I like the cartouche-flavored lozenges.

Matt E. Эллен

mmmm. straight liney

Mitch

in cartridge shaped cartouches

Matt E. Эллен

13:00

@Mitch mondegreen?

Mitch

'Lizard conditions coming again to North-east US'

@MattE.Эллен He ladied her there.

Matt E. Эллен

lizards falling from the sky. it's a plague!

Robusto

Ha, I found my bug. I typed remaingTime instead of remainingTime into the editor, and for the life of me my eyes kept parsing the typo as the correct word. Stupid eyes!

Mitch

I know! Makes one nostalgic for the apocalyptic blizzard conditions.

Robusto

@Mitch What, it's going to be the second coming of Jim Morrison?

Mitch

13:02

@Robusto Oh? YOu have the latest version of autocorrect-eyes?

'Local man cupertinoed in a compiler error'

Robusto

►

Mitch

@Robusto 'I can do anything' OK, then paint my house.

Robusto

Pfft, you would ask the Lizard King to paint your house?

He has more important obligations.

Mitch

I think it means he would, despite it being below his station, do an outstanding job.

Matt E. Эллен

constructing a lizard round table and knighting some lizard knights and forming a new world order... OMG David Icke was right!

Mitch

13:06

You're saying that like it's fiction.

Matt E. Эллен

it's all fiction unless it's real

Mitch

WTH is David Icke? I could look it up but that would be saving you time.

Matt E. Эллен

David Icke was a footballer, who turned his attention to politics and the for some reason started to believe that the world was ruled by lizard people

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен You could say that about a lot of things, like the hot cup of tea that is in my hand, or rather not in my hand goddammit.

Matt E. Эллен

there are books by him on the subject

Mitch

13:07

@MattE.Эллен You lost me at footballer

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch that's OK. just drink your tea and everything will be fine

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен My auto-wacky parser read that as 'there are books by the subject on him', which didn't make sense. So I'm blaming you.

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен You mean it's not?

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен It would be fine if it weren't fiction. Or rather it's all fine and good fiction but terrible reality.

Matt E. Эллен

@Robusto if I confirm it, the lizard people will kill me

Robusto

13:09

Reality is all fun and games until someone gets an eye poked out. By lizard people.

Mitch

resents reality, goes to make tea anyway

Matt E. Эллен

davidicke.com/headlines/…

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен If you deny it, the lizard people will worry that people wil understand that you meant the opposite, and so also kill you.

If you say that you neither confirm nor deny it, they see that you brought up the issue into peoples heads, and so will kill you.

Matt E. Эллен

we all gotta die som

Robusto

But these lizard people seem quite inefficient. They've let Matt escape their wrath for years now.

Mitch

13:13

If you say 'no comment', they'll continue funding your political career.

@Robusto Or very efficient. He's their man on the inside.

Robusto

I'm envisioning a race of lizard people who do nothing but crawl into the sun to warm up in the morning, then spend the rest of their day catching flies or sunning themselves. Hardly Matt-catching behavior, IMO.

Mitch

enacting legislature that will encourage profits.

mmm...flies. with tea off to catch flies

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch they've been funding that?

Robusto

I'm quite sure Matt doesn't do much to encourage profits.

Matt E. Эллен

no wonder I'm doing so badly in the polls

Robusto

13:15

We were wondering exactly that.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен I mean they're lizards. I didn't say they were perfect.

Matt E. Эллен

time to commute. to my flying lizard!

Mitch

jealous

or envious?

Robusto

When do we get flying lizards?

Mitch

When you vote to reopen the 'orthogonal' question.

tchrist

13:22

Heh, CPR (NPR) just said that the State may have to return the pot taxes, which were like $180m last year. Seems the legislators screwed up and voted to tax it.

However, in Colorado, our State Constitution says that all new taxes require a majority vote of the people not the legislature.

Oops.

Mitch

so who exactly gets the money back? The pot sellers?

tchrist

Probably not. It's not their money.

And you can't return it to the buyers because there is no record kept.

kdvr.com/2014/03/12/…

> Lawmakers have the option of simply lowering the sales and excise tax rates on recreational marijuana to bring the final revenue total in line with the $67 million Blue Book projection.

It's something of a mess.

> It’s still unclear whether all taxpayers or just those who bought recreational marijuana would be eligible for refunds, should the legislature simply decide to go that route.

Plus it isn't just State taxes.

Counties and even municipalities have some too. However, I'm pretty sure at least some of those were put to the popular vote in accordance with the Constitution, so should stand.

Isn't that hilarious though?

I'm not sure I follow, I confess.

If it has to do with $107M exceeding expected the $67M, but the taxes are otherwise legal, I'm not sure what the dealio is.

Robusto

13:51

@Mitch You got your wish. Now let's see what gem you've come up with.

Kit Z. Fox

I'm so excited for another two feet of snow. It's supposed to be the worst one yet. Thank Jesus that climate change is a false theory perpetuated by money-grubbing "scientists".

tchrist

As a child, we always had sledding parties for my birthday. Today it is going to be like 70 so I will be cutting capers in the foothills.

Hurray for climate change!

Kit Z. Fox

Happy birthday.

I should just say that every day in February.

tchrist

But this weather means nothing. Last year we got SEVEN FEET between March 1st and May Day.

Thanks.

Again, unless you count snow in feet, it doesn't count. You do, so yours does.

Mitch

@Robusto the gem is coming out pretty dusky.

@KitZ.Fox what do scientists know? Charlatans.

Kit Z. Fox

14:05

Two more feet means a total of six for us this year, since January, not counting the whole snow season.

@Mitch Follow the money.

tchrist

Yeah, we had had only six feet before the snow season hit and we got seven more.

Kit Z. Fox

I am reading an article and adoring that this woman uses "esta" for "this".

Mitch

@tchrist Hey, you can just harvest capers like that from native bushes?

Kit Z. Fox

@tchrist Yeah, but adjusting for altitude and ... clears throat, stares off into the distance

tchrist

@KitZ.Fox ¡Qué preciosa, esa mujer!

Kit Z. Fox

14:07

> I do look like the kind of person who, según TV or movies, does not exercise, you've never been to a gym, and does not, as They Say, "take care of themselves."

Her writing is really engaging and I can hear her accent. It's making me feel cuddly.

terdon

@MattE.Эллен spoilsport

Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. — Matt E. Эллен ♦ 1 hour ago

:) I would have done the same of course.

Robusto

@Mitch I don't see it coming out at all, dusky or brilliant.

Mitch

@Robusto haha. now it's there

Robusto

@Mitch Against my better judgment I +1'ed you.

Robusto

14:33

So it looks like Bing's strategy may be to ally with browsers like Firefox, and to look so much like Google results that people don't notice that they're not using Google.

Cerberus

Yeah.

And it will probably work.

Since Bing is good enough for most searches for most people.

Robusto

Yup.

I don't mind spreading my business around. No point in granting Google an absolute monopoly in searching.

Cerberus

I would use Duck Duck Go, but...

Agreed.

Not to mention giving all your private data to Google.

I really should never have opened that Gmail address...

Switching e-mails is so hard.

Robusto

Funny, but I always think of Greece when I see Ellas in Spanish.

Matt E. Эллен

2 hours ago, by Matt E. Эллен

that's better. I'd only deleted 2 comments up to then. need my daily fix!

Robusto

14:43

Duolingo keeps putting me strongly in touch with the implied dissonance of the phrase "going to return."

> You can now read 67% of all real Spanish text

12 hours ago, by Robusto

> You can now read 67.1% of all real Spanish text.

Either there's a bug in Duolingo's algorithm or I'm losing ground.

Mitch

@Robusto me too. it's like playing music. it sounds so great when it's in your head, but then when I hear what I play it's all clunkers.

crl

@tchrist lequipe.fr/explore-video/anton-krupicka-ultra-pur It's in French sorry, but it's in Boulder, about one of the best ultra-trailer runner, a sort of Forest Gump, nah joking because he's cultivated and living like this, in simplicity, is great

click "lancer la video"

Mitch

@Robusto Like Soviet Russia, Duolingo is playing you

Robusto

Or maybe it's a very sophisticated algorithm that has the ability to make sardonic comments.

¡Pero ellos van a perder!

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…