English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

7:04 PM

@Cerberus washboard abs are not tautological

Hugo

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 how'd you get the lightbulb?

Mitch

@skullpatrol A change is as good as a rest

Cerberus

@Mitch Pix or it didn't happen.

Mitch

... said some total idiot. I need to take a nap.

wait...that''s not a pic.

Eeeuuw. Some of the real pictures are gross

Jasper Loy

I have often thought that @hugo and @mitch are the same person.

No answer? That means it is true!

skullpatrol

7:13 PM

@Mitch sure, as long as it is a change for the better; in the sense that it makes you feel better.

Robusto

7:24 PM

@Mitch I have a tee shirt just like that.

Mitch

@JasperLoy Have you ever noticed we're never here at the same time?

gets sock puppet and second machine, just to fool everybody

@Robusto Your tee-shirt has an eight-pack.

Hugo

@JasperLoy Have you noticed we're never both here at the same time?

Mitch

!!jinx

!!jinx jinx

oops wrong keyboard

2

Jasper Loy

I don't know what happened, but this chat used to be way more interesting three years ago.

Mitch

bored bored bored

still bored?

Jasper Loy

7:31 PM

These days, I find the math chat more interesting.

It usually has twice the number of people talking.

skullpatrol

@Mitch :D

Mitch

Here it's half the people chatting because they're really one person writing from two avatars.

skullpatrol

the dynamics is different in here too

here we generate more heat, than light

imho

Jasper Loy

Only with evil people around.

skullpatrol

2 hours ago, by skullpatrol

Anyway, the world is full of evil people, that will never change.

Jasper Loy

7:36 PM

@skullpatrol The comma should be omitted.

skullpatrol

The world is full of evil people.

@JasperLoy how's that^

Jasper Loy

@skullpatrol I was referring to 'more heat, than light' but you are right about that comma splice there too.

skullpatrol

oh

Comma splice

A comma splice is the use of a comma to join two independent clauses. For example: It is nearly half past five, we cannot reach town before dark. Although acceptable in some languages and compulsory in others (e.g. Bulgarian), comma splices are usually considered style errors in English. Some English style guides consider comma splices appropriate in certain situations, such as when being poetic or with short, similar phrases. == Prescriptive view == Comma splices are condemned in The Elements of Style, a popular American English style guide by E.B. White and William Strunk, Jr. According to...

Jasper Loy

Next week is Christmas. I hope to get a Christmas miracle.

skullpatrol

Make your own miracle.

And then give it to yourself on Christmas day.

@JasperLoy :-)

Robusto

7:43 PM

@Mitch At least it doesn't have a thirty rack.

@skullpatrol Sailors are supposedly good at comma splicing.

skullpatrol

@Robusto so I've heard...

Robusto

Yar.

skullpatrol

me matty

Yo ho ho

Jasper Loy

I am going to eat some bananas now.

skullpatrol

enjoy

pal

Mitch

7:47 PM

@skullpatrol we get flag notices all the time from math. I don't see any from English.

@JasperLoy right...there are some people here who manage to stay just under the flaggable line.

skullpatrol

@Mitch I agree a lot of sparks fly in there...

Mitch

@Robusto I was expecting that to be NSFW, but I checked anyway and was disappointed

Robusto

@Jasper: try some exercise. You'd be surprised what it can do for you.

2

filthy minds . . .

Mitch

@skullpatrol but they alternate with integrals, so I guess it balances out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That sounds a bit dramatic. Is he just whining about the loss of the ticker?

Jasper Loy

8:52 PM

Why so many stars all of a sudden?

Johan Larsson

I starred the exercise one.

user116848

For hats maybe.

Robusto

Mos' def.

Jasper Loy

@Robusto Thanks. Anyway just by eating less, I lost 5 kg in 2 months.

Robusto

How much more do you need to lose?

Jasper Loy

8:59 PM

I don't need to lose any more actually. I am not exactly fat.

Robusto

Well, exercise has benefits beyond weight loss.

Jasper Loy

My BMI now is certainly under 25, even though BMI is BS.

Robusto

Maybe you're too thin then.

Jasper Loy

I am definitely fatter than ten years ago.

Robusto

Oh, wait. I was thinking percentile. 25 is the "norm" . . .

Jasper Loy

9:02 PM

Yeah.

I actually haven't done any exercise, other than walking, for the past ten years.

But on some days, I walk for a few hours.

skullpatrol

Do you go for a walk everyday?

Jasper Loy

Nope. Some days I just stay at home the whole day.

Robusto

Walking is good, but aerobic exercise is better.

skullpatrol

How many times per week, on average do you go?

Jasper Loy

I am now trying to get exempted from further military service. They can still call me for 2 weeks a year for the next 7 years.

@skullpatrol About 3.

skullpatrol

9:06 PM

Every other day is a good routine.

Robusto

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

Jasper Loy

I got downgraded for my military service recently because of my mental illness. But it seems I still have to serve, even though I need to do fewer things.

user116848

I like to run. It is kinda fun too. It takes all the worries sometimes.

Jasper Loy

I did about 4 km a day every day ten years ago.

user116848

But it is no fun running in summers here.

user116848

9:09 PM

Nice!

Jasper Loy

I like to run topless in the hot sun and get a tan.

user116848

heh

Jasper Loy

It's going to be Christmas, then New Year, then Chinese New Year.

skullpatrol

Which animal is coming?

Jasper Loy

I don't even know, lol. I never keep track.

skullpatrol

9:13 PM

I think their calendar is about 7000 years old

Jasper Loy

As you know, I am not interested in anything Chinese.

I dropped so much hair the last 2 years. Hope it grows back! All due to stress.

@skullpatrol That is a huge hat you are wearing, lol.

I am going to have a shit and a shower now.

skullpatrol

The year of the goat is coming. "Chinese Year" 4712, 4711, or 4651.

So about 5,000 years

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, about the new notifications, so, yes, indirectly about the ticker.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I've been using L for a while now and I like it a lot. I haven't had a problem with notifications.

Cerberus

Whatsapp messages are constantly blocking the upper quarter of his screen that he needs to interact with. So he basically can't use the phone when he is getting lots of messages.

I imagine.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Odd.

Stack Exchange

9:27 PM

Limerick Machine: If Santa is nice once a year Is that guy someone to fear? The rest of the time He’s committ…

posted on December 16, 2014 by sgdi

If Santa is nice once a year Is that guy someone to fear? The rest of the time He’s committing crime Backed up by some magic reindeer

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Not sure why you find it odd? I mean, I assume they didn't just shove this update out the door without even the tiniest bit of testing. So I'm not surprised when it works properly.

Maybe Whatsapp should just stop showing notifications if there are unread notifications

Anyway you can touch anywhere on the screen and the notification disappears.

Cerberus

I find it odd because I, as a layman, cannot imagine how this could work without majorly annoying people, and yet here you are.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I would want to see WA notifications immediately.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus All you know of this feature is what this one dissatisfied customer writes.

Cerberus

He is just one out of a great many from the issue tracker.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus All of them? Even if you're under constant bombardment of group messaging?

@Cerberus Confirmation bias. Anyone who likes the change doesn't post to the tracker.

Cerberus

9:30 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, I didn't know that. So it disappears, but will the icon still be in the top bar? And is the tap still registered by the active application?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm not sure if the icon remains. I think so? But the app doesn't register the tap.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That depends on things that Android can never know, so, yes, in practice I want to see all messages as they arrive.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus And yet every UI expert everywhere agrees that constantly bombarding users with notifications doesn't actually achieve a good user experience.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So you thought you had pressed a button, but it turns out you haven't, because it was consumed by the space outside the notification?

Very strange UI/UX decision...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, I didn't think I pressed a button, because I thought I dismissed a notification from the screen, which is what I did.

Honestly just TRY it.

Actually don't bother. You've already decided it's shit.

Cerberus

9:33 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The problem is that neither WA nor Android can predict which message I want to see immediately and which I don't. So the choice is all or nothing.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But you were already moving your finger to the button just when the notification arrived?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 When all my essential applications work on L, I will certainly try it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No. I was looking at the screen and a notification arrived. I touched outside it and it went away.

Cerberus

By that time, there will no doubt be an Xposed module to fix the notifications. In fact, I think there already is one—it's just that Xposed won't work on L any time soon.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The thing is that WA knows that when you have a steady stream of notifications it is bad for usability to be constantly pinging. Just stop notifying if the user isn't reading them.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What happens when it arrives just when you are tapping the screen?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The same thing that happens on any computer when something appears the instant before you click and then you click on it.

Cerberus

9:35 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What if the first message is from someone I don't want to read immediately, but the third one is?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But honestly, that can happen with ANY change to any position of anything on the screen.

Cerberus

With the ticker, you can see all that at a glance without interfering with your workflow at all.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Which is generally bad.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus What if two messages arrive at once, one you wanted to read, and one you don't, and the ticker doesn't have time to show both? You can't get perfect results.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Certainly. But it is to be avoided when possible, isn't it?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It shows them in succession.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yeah, so in this case the notification will flash and then you'll miss the popup, but your app won't take unwanted action.

Cerberus

9:37 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Takes about 1 second per line, at most 5 per message, probably.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus And it always shows the full content of all the notifications? Even if there are lots coming in at once?

I mean, frankly, the whatsapp group messaging thing seems like a red herring. I know I don't want constant notifications.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So your expected action will have been disrupted, and at the same time you will have been unable to read the notification. Someone said on the Internet that the icon disappears too, if you dismiss the pop-up. Or is that only when you swipe the pop-up to the right?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I believe so? In practice, it works very, very well, don't you agree?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If people are messaging me every 10 seconds, I will gladly get a notification each time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm not sure exactly what happens. All I know is that I was not surprised by it and didn't feel like the world was ending.

Cerberus

The apocalypse!

I think we are in some ways opposites.

I only like new things when I have picked them myself.

You like most new things.

I love installing new Xposed modules with new functionality, but with the guarantee that I can uninstall them if I don't like them.

Only yesterday I installed a module that shows me the passwords of all my saved Wifi SSIDs.

Which Android inexplicably cannot.

Not even protected by a password or whatever.

Jasper Loy

I am back from the shit, but I decided not to shower.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:45 PM

okay I've retested the notification feature

it doesn't dismiss if you touch outside it

the app gets the touch

but it dismisses instantly if you swipe it

there's no need to wait

Jasper Loy

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Your hat is huge, lol.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

and the notification is still in the notification area

Cerberus

Huh?

That makes it slightly better, I guess.

People said it would disappear from the top bar.

I would still hate having to swipe away notifications when I am actually using my phone one-handedly in a busy street trying to navigate.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

ok strangely I just tried again and it disappeared

Cerberus

Well, well.

They said waiting makes only the pop-up disappear, but swiping also makes the icon disappear from the top bar.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:50 PM

Anyway, whatever. It's fine. It'd be nice to have a toggle to bring back the ticker, but meh.

Jasper Loy

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I saw that there was almost nobody in the writers room today.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy I was feeling sick so I went to take a nap

Probably my phone made me sick, some new feature in Lollipop.

Jasper Loy

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Are you working from home?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy always

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am glad at least you agree with me about that. I imagine I would like to be able to pick per application whether I wanted the ticker, a pop-up (phone, alarm), or both.

In that same screen, they should have options to toggle notifications per app, LED colour and frequency, etc.—all the things from the most popular applications that people have been downloading en masse since Android version -1.

Not to mention the things that IOS has, like the privacy settings. Which they already have, but...have decided not to give to use an an optional feature. It might be confusing!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:55 PM

@Cerberus Well, I sorta disagree. In the past there was no setting, it was only the ticker. Android doesn't have to provide settings for everything. In this case it'd be nice to allow it for the people who can't get used to the new ways.

Cerberus

I think you know what I am going to say to that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus As usual, you underestimate the cost to the ecosystem and the users when extra settings are provided.

Did you know that on Windows you can put the taskbar at the top of the screen?

I've been doing that since 1995

I'm the only person I know who does it

It always seemed like the most logical place for it

As a consequence I am plagued with bugs from shitty apps, including MS's own, that don't know that the taskbar might be somewhere other than bottom-left

I get notification bubbles all over the place.

And other weirdness.

Jasper Loy

OMG, I just heard that there are 6 hour long exams. The longest I did was 3 hours.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Programs that assume where the taskbar is, then draw a window that covers the rest of the screen, leaving me with a covered-up taskbar and a blank space at the bottom of the screen.

And that's just ONE setting.

Because that setting exists, either every app developer has to anticipate it and test for it, or just provide a product that doesn't work well for the users.

And when multiple monitors were rare, having one was a surefire way to screw up some app that assumed you had only one screen.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Of course, I move it every time I pivot my screen, between bottom and left position.

Very often.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

10:00 PM

you "pivot" your screen?

anyway, it's just one example.

The privacy settings are probably worth the cost, but in general each setting in the OS makes it harder for app developers to properly test their apps.

You wouldn't believe the hassle I had with a simple little app, trying to get it to work on a variety of samsung phones.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You can always change the setting if you find that it doesn't work well enough with programmes. That is the beauty of it. By the way, I have never, ever experienced any problems with this feature in any position. I have my task bar on the left side normally, at the bottom when I pivot my screen, i.e. when I move it such that it is vertical.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I noticed a problem just today; I press "caps lock" and a little window floats up at the bottom right of my screen, where it has no business being.

@Cerberus And what's the point in having a setting if it doesn't work well enough to use?

Example: I like to auto-hide the taskbar.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Xposed modules show that this isn't such a bit issue, they almost always work well. And I agree that you should always make such things optional.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But I had to stop using it because SO MANY APPS broke

Jasper Loy

Your use of CAPS is unique.

Cerberus

10:04 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The point is that "well enough" depends on various factors. For you, it doesn't work well, but well enough to be worth it, right? For me, it works perfectly, never noticed any problems with the taskbar position.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Xposed modules don't prove anything. They are even harder to predict than regular settings. If your app relies on a particular feature, but this tiny handful of users have an Xposed module that breaks that feature, then your app won't work and you have no way of knowing about it.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I have never used that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's just one example. Obviously I don't bother using the settings that can't be flipped, because they can't be flipped.

@Cerberus I don't know why it isn't default... especially in the old days when screens were smaller.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And yet countless numbers of people happily use Xposed modules, and I rarely ever hear people complain about their breaking applications.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus There's a good chance they won't even know why the app is malfunctioning.

Cerberus

10:06 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I want to see what applications I have active. Auto-hiding makes the interface less predictable. The gain in usable screen space may or may not be worth it. That is for YOU to decide, not Microsoft.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I installed a firewall. Some app wasn't working. The app couldn't tell me what was wrong: it didn't know that firewalls were a possible thing.

@Cerberus Nah, it's totally predictable. just mouse to the bar and it appears. When it works it feels really natural.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You don't know in advance where which app button will be.

By that I mean the app's rectangle on the task bar.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus See, I'd've made it auto-hide by default, but maybe for branding reasons they wanted the start button always visible? Or maybe users are too dumb to remember where to go to find the start bar? And you could have a setting to leave it showing.

Cerberus

As long as you have a setting to change it, I don't care.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's not like the apps move around or something.

Cerberus

10:09 PM

Sure they do.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, it's a setting. But I had to stop using it because it didn't work well because every setting is a new test case for app developers and too many of them didn't care to do the work.

Cerberus

Only programmes that you have running have full tiles on the task bar.

Others either have only icons or are absent.

This exists.

I am even considering installing it.

I also used a task bar on my Windows mobile screen, which had a tiny screen, because seeing what programmes I have running without having to press any button is a serious advantage to me.

But of course I understand that for you it may not be worth it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus For me my running apps stay the same all day. So there's no benefit to it.

Avis

hello

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, time to go.

cya

Cerberus

10:11 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps you also have app grouping in the task bar, where all Word documents you have open are under one tile? I hate that, I want to see everything I have open at once.

Bye!

@Avis Ave!

Avis

What is past tense of birth

Jasper Loy

Birth is a noun.

Avis

then how could i use it something like"you birth on earth is useless"

Jasper Loy

Your birth on earth is useless.

That would use the noun.

Avis

i want to convey something like.."process of person coming on earth is useless or waste"

Jasper Loy

10:16 PM

You being born on earth is useless.

That would use the verb.

Avis

i mean he already came, But i would like to say why the hell did you came(something like this).

KitFox

Why the hell did you come?

Jasper Loy

Good evening @KitFox. How is your fiction coming along?

KitFox

@JasperLoy Slowly.

Avis

you being born on earth is useless. is this present tense or past tense.?

Jasper Loy

10:17 PM

@KitFox I came when I saw Maria, lol. Double meaning, lol.

Avis

cause he was already born, how can we say being born?

please help me, @JasperLoy.

Jasper Loy

@Avis I think maybe you can say 'You having been born on earth is useless'. But you can just stick to the simple 'Your birth is useless' like I said.

KitFox

@Avis Is it specifically his birth you wish to insult?

Jasper Loy

@Avis Or you can say something like 'You should not have been born'.

Avis

not birth, something like he is burden to earth. its waste of time for him to come on earth

you birth is useless. sounds good. thanks

KitFox

10:20 PM

Something like "Your mother should have spit you out" or is that excessively vulgar?

Jasper Loy

@Avis No, I think 'You should not have been born' is better.

Avis

yes.its excessively vulgar!

KitFox

What about "You are a waste of flesh"? Is that about right?

Avis

i know this statement"'You should not have been born' is better." but i would like to compare his birth to garbage.

that's nice.@KitFox. thanks for new one.

Jasper Loy

@Avis Just say 'You are garbage', lol.

Cerberus

10:22 PM

You might consider a more...decent reply.

Avis

lol.

Cerberus

One that doesn't drag you down to his level.

Avis

exactly @Cerberus

Cerberus

If you value etiquette...

So you might consider simply ignoring him.

Avis

it should not drag me down. when i say that. he should realize his mistake. why am i saying like that

Jasper Loy

10:24 PM

I think 'You should not have been born' is strong and stays within certain boundaries.

Cerberus

It does drag you down.

And people rarely "realise their mistakes" when being treated with a personal attack.

Jasper Loy

But then again, I can also say I should not have been born, because this life has gone so wrong for me.

Avis

it's way classic. i need bit more impact on dialogue.

Jasper Loy

@avis I think exactly what you should say very much depends on exactly what you want to say, and we cannot guess that.

Cerberus

bows out

Avis

10:26 PM

okay..thanks guys!

Jasper Loy

@KitFox Do you know that simchona has finally returned to the site? She came to chat for a while too.

KitFox

Hat dash.

Jasper Loy

Unfortunately, Carlo has disappeared forever, lol.

I actually liked talking to Carlo, even though he had problems with some others in here.

I am not sure if he is still alive. He seems to be an old grandfather.

KitFox

He hasn't.

He just goes by a different name.

Jasper Loy

Oh, OK. I have his email in my contacts.

He said I could stay with him if I went to Italy.

But I doubt I would be going to Italy this life.

I will be in this chat for another hour, so we can talk.

KitFox

10:37 PM

Talk with me?

Jasper Loy

Yes, if you are bored.

KitFox

I'm working on something with Andrew.

Jasper Loy

Is it ELU related, or programming?

KitFox

EL&U. We're working on the revised close reason.

Jasper Loy

That sounds not too hard.

KitFox

10:43 PM

Just requires some focus.

And I'm tired and hungry.

Jasper Loy

I am tired and hungry too, but in different ways. I am tired of my problems and hungry for a life free of these problems.

Mahnax

Hola.

Jasper Loy

@Mahnax I hear you have been drinking.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Sì!

Jasper Loy

@Mahnax Will you consider changing your pic?

Mahnax

10:54 PM

@JasperLoy Nope! :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

11:40 PM

@Cerberus I used to turn that off. But on windows 7 you can't.

Johan Larsson

11:51 PM

so

The hat renders all ver the place :)

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…