English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

aedia λ

00:00

There are all sorts of crazy things like opposite day parking rules where you have to move your car so they can clean the street.

I've never tried to drive there.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Right, and we don't have a good subway network (it used to be impossible to dig tunnels here without destroying houses above it, so it wasn't done).

aedia λ

I have some friends there but they don't have cars anymore that I know of, for the most part. It's too hard.

@Cerberus Oh, so that's why you have aboveground trams?

Cerberus

@aediaλ Yup. And they're pretty slow. So bikes are the way to go.

Actually it depends on where you're going.

user19161

Are there a lot of thieves in Amsterdam as I heard?

Cerberus

And a tunnel for the new underground has just finished being dug, so we'll have a brand new lines right underneath the very centre in a few years.

@JasperLoy I don't know; there are thieves, but I don't know whether there are more or fewer than in other cities?

aedia λ

00:04

@JasperLoy I imagine there are a lot of thieves in any city. We have things like a rash of phone and iPod thefts reported here in DC in the metro system, but I don't worry about it.

user19161

@Cerberus OK. It seems there are a lot in China too. Even in a restaurant, you should not leave your handbag on another chair.

user19161

Well, just based on some stories I heard from friends.

aedia λ

Handbags seem like a stupid design in the first place.

It's like, just asking to get lost or stolen or have stuff fall out.

user19161

@aediaλ Ya I wonder why you girls carry them. They don't hold much and are hard to carry.

user19161

bans all handbags

aedia λ

00:06

Aug 1 at 22:12, by aedia

@Cerberus Whoever designed women's dress pants without useful pockets should... should... have to wear them forever. Blasted things.

user19161

bans all women's dress pants

aedia λ

I actually carry something a little less handbaggish and more like a very small shoulder satchel.

user19161

I know of this person (one of my arch enemies actually) who has 50 handbags.

aedia λ

like this only a bit smaller and less ugly

user19161

@aediaλ Of course. Aedia has good taste.

aedia λ

00:09

It stays attached to me nearly all the time I'm out and then I don't think about my stuff or have to burden my hands with some flowery bit of nonsense.

user19161

Good, practical yet aesthetically pleasing.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy I think that depends on the restaurant. If it is a crowded restaurant, and not too expensive, I'd not leave valuable stuff out of sight. Would you, in S?

aedia λ

@JasperLoy Those decorative ones are good for like, if you are the kind of person who changes your shoes to match every outfit too.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy You have several enemies?

aedia λ

I can see how it's interesting to dress up, I just can't be arsed.

user19161

00:12

@Cerberus It's actually pretty safe here. Of course not out of sight.

user19161

@Cerberus Well, I do hate a few people in the world. This girl actually did something nasty to me before, details omitted. I am not a saint who loves and forgives everyone.

user19161

@aediaλ I never bother to dress up, I'm a slacker when it comes to fashion.

user19161

Mandriva users note that Mandriva 2011 will be out soon.

Cerberus

Well, I hate to be discriminating or anything, but if you're in an upscale restaurant, you wouldn't worry about people passing close to your bag, unless they looked like the kind of people you would not expect in that restaurant, in which case you would pay attention to what they were doing. If people sit down and order things, they can hardly be thieves either.

@JasperLoy OK fair enough.

user19161

@Cerberus Perhaps that's the whole point of the story I heard: the thieves don't look like thieves, they are experts in what they do.

Cerberus

00:17

Hmm, well, I don't know.

Stealing low-value things like purses isn't worth the trouble for a criminal Dutchman who would be able to get close to my stuff without arousing my suspicion.

aedia λ

I don't know either, but I try to take reasonable steps like being aware of my surroundings on metro/bus, and beyond that not worrying too much about it.

Cerberus

Same here.

user19161

But anyway, thieves don't bother me. The most valuable stuff I carry are my mathematics books.

Cerberus

But leaving an expensive coat or jacket, or a purse/bag/phone/etc. out of sight in a bar is a very bad idea.

Those get stolen very quickly.

aedia λ

Exactly.

In a bar, if I need bring my bag, it just stays attached to me.

Cerberus

00:20

I once had a bag that only contained library books stolen. Took me lots of time and money to replace them, some were rare prints (though they would fetch the thief no more than a few euros, if he even bothered to sell them).

user19161

They probably would not target a fashion slacker like me either.

aedia λ

@Cerberus Oh, no!

Cerberus

So is what A and I are saying similar to your experience in S, Jasper?

@aediaλ I know! Library books are a pain to lose.

aedia λ

I wouldn't worry about putting my stuff down in a nice restaurant, but a lot of times I eat places that are somewhere between bar/restaurant. So it kind of varies, I guess, depends how crowded it is and what I've had to carry with me.

Cerberus

I have been trying to find the exact same edition of a book that was burned to ashes, have been trying for a year now, still no luck. And the library is still waiting for it.

@aediaλ Same.

user19161

00:22

@Cerberus I guess so, pretty safe but just take precautions.

aedia λ

Some times I had to come straight from work and my work bag was the most important thing because it had a laptop (though it wasn't obvious), so I would always rest my foot on it while sitting at the bar or table.

user19161

Nowadays I go out without carrying anything except possibly an umbrella. Mobile and wallet go into pockets.

aedia λ

Now I don't have quite as long a commute so I usually at least get a chance to run home if I've got somewhere to go after.

@Cerberus Awwwh!

user19161

I'll never take a laptop to use outside, troublesome and spoils eyesight if used on train.

aedia λ

@Cerberus My heart goes out to you and that book and the library. Poor book.

user19161

00:25

I am glad I have walking shorts with big pockets for me to stuff stuff.

user19161

@Cerberus Poor Cerberus.

user19161

@aediaλ Poor Cerberus.

aedia λ

@JasperLoy I'm quite sure my eyesight is fine! Hmmph shoves big thick glasses up on nose

user19161

@aediaλ You wear glasses too?

aedia λ

Mmhmm.

Cerberus

00:28

@aediaλ It thanks you, from wherever it is now!

user19161

I never wear contacts, only my black plastic frame Spiderman specs.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy I usually carry everything in my pockets too (poor women and their pants!). But occasionally I need to carry more stuff. And what about coats/jackets?

user19161

I mean if you know what Peter Parker looks like.

user19161

@Cerberus None. Hot weather.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Right, that helps!

So how warm is it at 3 am?

user19161

00:31

It's more of the humidity. You still feel sticky and uncomfortable without fan or aircon.

user19161

Of course during the rainy seasons it gets pretty cold then.

Cerberus

So you won't need a coat at all walking outside for half an hour at 3 am at the coldest time of the year, if any?

Ah.

Right, and how about raincoats?

user19161

I still don't need a coat. And I use umbrellas, never raincoats. Nobody wears raincoats here.

user19161

I think raincoats are not common in Asia.

Cerberus

OK.

user19161

00:33

If you wear a raincoat here, everyone will stare at you.

Cerberus

I suppose you wouldn't need a raincoat if you don't need it for warmth too.

@JasperLoy Haha nice!

user19161

Do you wear specs too @cerb?

Cerberus

Glasses? No.

Contacts.

user19161

Vain...

Cerberus

Yes, and practical.

No apparatus sitting on your face.

user19161

00:35

True, but glasses can look nice and fun.

aedia λ

I wear contacts sometimes.

They're good for when you want to wear better sunglasses.

user19161

Matt wears both too.

aedia λ

And swimming or running or anything like that.

user19161

I never tried contacts. The thought of putting sth in your eye is scary.

user19161

And I simply don't wear anything when I did running in the past. The degree is not too high.

aedia λ

00:37

@JasperLoy They're not so bad. They're soft and they just suction onto there... hmm, I'm probably not helping, huh.

@JasperLoy You mean you can see without your glasses?

I would run into walls.

user19161

I think it is scary when you think of how you might not be able to get it out.

user19161

@aediaλ Yes, but not the bus numbers when I am waiting for buses.

aedia λ

Nonsense, they're easy to take out.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Same!

aedia λ

All those stories about stuff sliding behind people's eyes are urban legends.

user19161

00:39

Running into walls is drastic. I suppose you two have high degrees.

user19161

Mine is around 170 I think.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Yeah the first week or two they seem impossible to get in and you will never ever get used to them. Then suddenly it becomes easy and they don't trouble you any more. But make sure you use expensive ones: the cheaper, the more they irritate my eyes.

aedia λ

I can't use the computer without glasses.

user19161

And always take them out before sleep.

Cerberus

I can, but I need to bend over until the screen is a hand's length from my face.

user19161

00:40

@aediaλ I don't wear any at home.

Cerberus

Yes, the taking out and putting in is a bit annoying. But there are kinds that you can officially keep in for a week.

I don't know what 170 could be... I have -4.

user19161

My friend's degree was too high for Lasik, so he opted for surgical contacts.

user19161

@Cerberus Well, different ways of measuring I guess.

Cerberus

Oh!

@JasperLoy I didn't know they had those.

How are the surgical contacts working for him?

user19161

@Cerberus I didn't know too, but I might have heard or remembered wrongly.

user19161

00:43

@Cerberus Good.

Cerberus

Perhaps I should get my eyes lasered too...

OK.

But I should go to bed.

user19161

@Cerberus Be aware of the risks though. Goodnight!

Cerberus

@JasperLoy I thought those were negligible?

user19161

@Cerberus Ya just saying.

aedia λ

@Cerberus I don't know what 170 is either, but I think mine is worse than -4 if that's on the same system. -5 or something.

Cerberus

00:44

@aediaλ Cool!

aedia λ

Not like we need to compete for most blindestest.

Cerberus

Ehh no, of course not. Right.

-10 means you have to wear very thick glasses.

aedia λ

@Cerberus Sleep well!

Cerberus

And contacts are impossible when you get around -10 I think.

-1 means you can still read most signs but things just aren't always as clear as they should be.

Same system?

Dioptrics or something.

user19161

Maybe I will look up the different ways of measuring...

Cerberus

00:47

Dioptre is the word.

Well, bye!

aedia λ

Have a good night!

Cerberus

Sank yoo!

user19161

01:19

I thought a question or answer edited 10 times becomes community wiki. Seems not to be the case. Maybe only applies to 10 times by the owner.

FallenAngelEyes

01:48

@Cerberus My eyes used to be -12 and -13

Then I had LASIK done!

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Any side effects?

user19161

Raining heavily here @chaos!

FallenAngelEyes

Other than having awesome eyesight now, nay

I had my right eye done twice and my left only once, so my right regressed a little, but not much, only to like -1.25 or so.

user19161

Maybe I will get it done too one day.

FallenAngelEyes

Either way, my life was way more functional after that.

user19161

02:00

Well it would make things more convenient but I would not go so far as to use functional.

FallenAngelEyes

I couldn't go to school if my glasses broke

I literally could not safely function without them

KitΘδς

I was told that I am not a candidate for Lasik. I was very disappointed.

user19161

Try surgical contacts.

KitΘδς

What are surgical contacts?

user19161

Contact lenses implanted surgically, think there's no need to change them, but I may have forgotten what my friend told me.

FallenAngelEyes

02:10

@KitΘδς That sucks. It really made a huge difference in my QoL.

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes QoL?

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy Quality of Life

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes This place is full of nonstandard abbreviations.

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy Lower your standards :D?

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes I have no standards here, just find it incomprehensible!

FallenAngelEyes

02:16

Hehe.

Well, sleeptime for me, g'night all!

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Night!

user19161

Yo @MrShiny Your avatar always appears blurred here. Probably bigger file size.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy I never recognize when you're in the room because your avatar changes so often

You mean the tiny version next to the chat text?

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It changes to reflect my moods, but only in a vague manner which I don't understand myself.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well I was looking at the big one on the right, bit it seems OK now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:19

@JasperLoy hm, odd. It's clear to me. I haven't changed it since I first set it up. It's the same as my blogger avatar.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The same thing does not happen to other people, you are unique.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy Well, I am unique.

user19161

But there were mysterious pixellations a few weeks ago that affected random people.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That is true, we all are unique, but not everyone is special. They say unique is more special than special. I say special is more special than unique.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy That's one way to look at it. Or two ways, I guess.

user19161

02:22

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ya that's the other way. Looking at things too differently is not good in many situations, but it happens naturally to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy Well, there's no right way or wrong way to look at things. Except upside down. That's never right.

user19161

@mrshiny I was thinking about your wares become soft joke and concluded that there were two kinds of things which could become soft, one in the man and one in the woman.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy That wasn't the sort of joke you were supposed to think too hard about. :)

Just an off-the cuff innuendo.

Not even that funny.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Exactly, I have difficulty understanding most jokes, while coming up with ones others don't understand myself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But @Kit had said something like "a software problem" for relationships, which I took as "someone isn't right in the head". So I just made the requisite dirty joke.

@JasperLoy Is English your native language?

user19161

02:30

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I would say yes, since that is not well-defined.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I thought of the head thing too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy Well, I mean a language that you learned as a child and can speak fluently, as opposed to a language that you were taught.

by a teacher.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I would say yes then. You see, that is the thing that is not so well-defined here, since people here speak a bit of both Chinese and English.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The reason I ask is because it's curious that you say you don't get jokes and that others don't get yours.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Probably because I am weird anyway.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:35

Maybe humour is different in your country. I don't always get Chinese humour, when I can understand it.

user19161

True, cultural background also plays a part here.

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Really? That was what you thought of first?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς I think so? I forget. I'd have to go back and re-read it. Did I misinterpret you?

KitΘδς

I meant to imply that the wares were soft.

wink wink nudge nudge

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς dammit! So my dirty joke was neither funny NOR clever.

KitΘδς

02:39

Well, let's look again, shall we?

BRB

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And now that I re-read the transcript, I see that it could also be taken literally, in that a relationship could fall apart because one person had a literal software problem that needed resolving so badly that they neglected their real relationship.

Starts here

2 days ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy wouldn't be the first time a couple broke up because someone worked too hard on something.

KitΘδς

I was just getting there...

2 days ago, by KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Or had a software issue.

user19161

Reading and rereading the transcript has become my hobby lately. I am surprised at the stuff it forces me to rethink.

KitΘδς

Yes, I was perhaps a bit too vague. I should have used air quotes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy Don't RE-read the EL&U transcript! You'll go blind!

@KitΘδς You should have Eric Idle'ed it. knowwhatImean, saynomore, say no more!

KitΘδς

02:42

I thought I was being exceptional clever, too.

What with the juxtaposition of hard and soft. And the double entendre.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

man, it was like a quadruple entendre.

KitΘδς

That's what I get for slumming it with the cretins.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Exactly, I am still trying to figure out some very important things, not this one of course.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy Aren't we all :)

KitΘδς

I mean, I thought you were making some innuendo with the "working too hard on something."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:44

@KitΘδς whoops! Nope.

KitΘδς

Well, that would have been funny too. I laughed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'll have to remember that one for next time.

KitΘδς

And hell, this code isn't writing itself, so I'll get back to it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There needs to be a way to put the subtle inflections on certain words in writing.

@KitΘδς you're STILL writing code? and at this hour?

KitΘδς

It's T minus 9 days, sir.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:46

I was going to ask you how it was going but I guess that answers that.

KitΘδς

Code doesn't write itself, although I tried creating a class for that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Haven't we all :)

KitΘδς

At least I got the launch date pushed back.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Oh, good

simchona

I hope your code isn't like this:

user19161

02:47

@KitΘδς Yes, no skiving!

simchona

thedailywtf.com/Articles/Double-Line.aspx

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I know. Total n00b move. Like in Psych 101, when all the students think they are manic-depressive, right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς Listen. I once worked for a company whose entire product line was supposed to be a thing that generated code. You'd just think about the business problems and poof! enterprise apps.

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 ROFL. Are you serious? Was it named Microsoft?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς No. But needless to say the practice was much harder than the theory.

KitΘδς

02:51

@MrShinyandNew安宇 "I know the server-side delay is longer than anticipated, but the monkeys just can't type any faster."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I kept pointing out problems, like the fact that nobody had addressed the fact that changing the data model through a GUI meant squat if you still had to get out a java compiler to write the code for that model. Sigh.

@KitΘδς Man, if only I had monkeys that could type. Instead I simulate it.

simchona

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Isomorphic?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@simchona Is that the safe-word?

simchona

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Only if we both agree

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No, the safe word is mistlethwaite, I thought.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:53

@KitΘδς I thought it was apotheosis. That could have been embarrassing to yell out.

KitΘδς

yesterday, by aedia λ

Mistlethwaite! I said mistlethwaite!

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But you are right, I did say apotheosis. Aedia has a different safe word.

I'm positively pleased that you remember.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς It's important to remember the safe word. I even looked it up in wikipedia.

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Why wikipedia?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς First hit in google that looked reputable.

KitΘδς

Oh, you're of that generation, aren't you?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:55

I don't, uh, use a dictionary anymore.

KitΘδς

Yeah. Yeah. I get that.

Kids these days.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

teehee cuz you're sooooo much older than me.

Anyway, I must be going. It's bedtime for those of us who have to get the kids to daycare by 7am.

Good night all, or good day, or whatever it is wherever you all are.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Really?

user19161

Quick poll again: What dictionaries do you use normally (in paper and online)?

simchona

OED

user19161

03:02

@simchona But what if you have no access to it?

simchona

@JasperLoy I like the OALD now

user19161

@simchona Good! I think Aedia uses it too.

user19161

I currently have a hardcopy of CALD.

user19161

2

A: Is “knife-in-one’s-teeth (woman)” frequently used English? Can we use it for a man as well?

Having a "knife in one's teeth" is not a common phrase, although it is a common TV Trope. As the page for cutlass between one's teeth writes, Taking disregard for the old saying "Don't run with scissors" to a whole new level, the Cutlass Between The Teeth is the tendency for usually Badass c...

user19161

Why the use of single quotes and double quotes in the same answer? What style are you using?

simchona

03:13

@JasperLoy probably a mistake. Hold on

ok

user19161

03:31

@kit I have a feeling you just did something with your votes.

KitΘδς

What gives you that impression?

user19161

@KitΘδς Was that you?

KitΘδς

<—Is this my avatar?

user19161

@KitΘδς A cryptic answer usually means yes. See how I tricked you?

KitΘδς

It is a small man who spends his time tricking others for sport.

user19161

03:51

Lately there haven't been any "pronounciation(s)".

simchona

07:10

OT/too localized?

0

Q: Writing proper warning messages

Here is the situation: User clicks on a button. A list of meeting names with checkbox before each name is shown in pop up. If user doesn't select any check box and closes box then I have to show a warning message. So what message I should show to user? Currently I'm showing: "Are you sure you...

simchona

07:39

Hi @Matt!

Matt Ellen Д

I'd say, given the answer, it might belong on UX. It doesn't seem a question about English Language

Hi @simchona :)

simchona

@MattEllenД I don't use UX, so I wouldn't know. Want to suggest that in a comment?

Oh wait

You already did

Matt Ellen Д

:D yup

I wrote my chat message, but forgot to send it!

simchona

Haha. I'll keep UX in mind when other people come in going, "write my error message"

Matt Ellen Д

Yeah. I'm not 100% sure it's where they should go. It is a sort of "word choice" question

If it turns out we get a lot that would be better off at UX we can get a new migration path!

simchona

07:45

Hmm...I don't think it belongs here because it doesn't relate to English in general

but I'll have to check out UX to see what they have

Matt Ellen Д

yeah. The fact that the message is just not a parsable English sentence is confusing me.

simchona

Are you sure you want live with no meeting?

Matt Ellen Д

do I want live? I'm not sure. I mean, I like live, but prerecorded has production value to its benefit. :p

simchona

I think it's OT like this is OT:

1

Q: Word-order and meaning - which is correct for this notice?

I'm creating some signs for the office car park, and one of these signs is to control access. What I'm trying to get it to indicate is that cars aren't permitted between 10 am and 4pm except for access. Which of the below mean what I want to say above? Except for access 10 am - 4 pm 10 am - ...

meaning grammar word-order ambiguity grammatical-structure

@MattEllenД What about dead with no attached meeting? I can live with that

Matt Ellen Д

@simchona Yes. This is a similar case.

@simchona you can live with being dead?! guards his brain

simchona

07:51

@MattEllenД om nom nom

Matt Ellen Д

I think an anti-zombie hat would be a big seller

simchona

Is it foil?

Matt Ellen Д

That would be a good material

eating foil is a vile sensation

puts my teeth on edge just thinking about it

simchona

Like chewing on a filling

Matt Ellen Д

I wouldn't know. Probably

I guess chewing on a filling would be painful too, though, if it's come out of its hole?

simchona

07:58

I would guess so

user19161

08:25

Hello!

simchona

ello!

user19161

This is the first time I have seen the version without the h.

simchona

noting wrong wit tat

user19161

H is the most difficult letter to pronounce. Most people do it wrongly with the h sound in front, when it should be "aitch".

user19161

I hope you choose the right time to fly off. Avoid the hurricane if possible.

user19161

08:37

Note that there is a difference between use and mention of a word or phrase. If it is mentioned and not used as usual, it should be formatted in some way. I usually italicise in the body and use quote marks in the title. For example, I just edited the title of this question.

user19161

4

Q: Difference between "without" and "with no"

What is the difference between the usage of without and with no? For example, without sound and with no sound.

differences

user19161

I have also been trimming question titles, which I believe should be succinct, avoiding the question mark if possible while retaining information. Note that the body should be self-contained and the title should be a reflection of the meat of it.

user19161

A lot of questions here have the question split into the body and title, which should not be the case.

user19161

The title should also be made more descriptive. For example, I just edited this one.

user19161

1

Q: Word or phrase to describe banging finger downwards to demand something

I'm trying to find a short and sweet phrase to describe the following action. A man is upset. He is demanding for something to be done. He reaches his hand forward, his finger pointing downwards, and he bangs his finger on the table several times, indicating he wants that something now. Or mayb...

phrases description

user19161

08:45

The original one is too generic.

user19161

I see that sim has rep capped again today.

user19161

Enjoy your public holiday Matt.

Matt Ellen Д

hi @Jasper!

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…