English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

George Capote

16:00

also this Kyle guy is just a lunatic.

tchrist

He’ll get better: we’re just past the New Moon phase.

George Capote

he's obviously just picking on me in my answer's comments. claiming that you need to use "that" in "I cannot comprehend that it's red"

tchrist

Or he doesn’t know English.

George Capote

that too.

tchrist

Certainly the entire comment chain taken as a whole has hit the Not Constructive or Too Chatty stage, after which there is no return.

George Capote

16:03

that's why I deleted my angry reply to him. washing my hands of that.

tchrist

But I kinda no longer understand the question either.

George Capote

it is a stupid question.

tchrist

That’s not very polemically correct, now is it?

George Capote

not much more so than your comment about my potential question.

tchrist

I think this answer is right if you simply add the word "overall" or "holistic" to the question (which is what I assumed to mean anyway). Obviously, if you take it to mean "literally the precisely identical word-by-word meaning" you can only achieve that by replacing a word (or words) with synonyms, which its and it's are not, making it definitionally impossible, no? — Jaydles ♦ 22 hours ago

I think the user has asked exactly the wrong question.

If I understand his goal, which I probably do not.

@nneonneo I’ve been thinking about your question, and I have an idea I would like you to please consider. I believe that finding a sentence where swapping its/yours/theirs for it’s/your’s/their’s does not change its meaning is not what you need to prove that this problem is unsolvable by simple spellchecking software. Rather, I believe what you need is a sentence where that change produces a valid sentence whose meaning is different. After all, if the meaning doesn’t change, then it wouldn’t matter how it is spelled. Only spelling changes that change meaning matter. See? — tchrist 19 hours ago

Johan Larsson

16:06

in Lounge<C++> on Stack Overflow Chat, 7 mins ago, by sehe

A programmer left his rich parents to pursue his dream of creating orchestral music. He favored composition over inheritance.

Tweeted by JoeDotDeveloper on July 28, 2014 at 12:17 AM

Not pun but wordgame

tchrist

@JohanLarsson They don’t do limericks very well over there, do they?

Johan Larsson

dunno, come and see?

George Capote

in any case, I think my question about the meaning of same meaning could be a good one, because I think Jaydles is wrong in that quote.

you don't need to only replace words with synonyms to achieve same meaning. you can also change the order, make a sentence passive case, etc.

tchrist

Wordplay is the only form of humor that is achieved without making light of someone else’s misfortune.

George Capote

and it still has (sort of mathematically?) the same meaning.

aside from you thinking it's lame, will it get closed/held/permanently cast to the land of misery and despair?

Johan Larsson

16:08

@tchrist not sure, can't counter it on the spot though.

tchrist

Normally, “humor” is that form of comedy which derives from observing another’s tragedy. Wordplay alone is not.

Mitch

@GeorgeCapote What would your question actually be, and then would it be on topic for ELU (as opposed to philosophy.stackexchange.com)?

tchrist

@Mitch I think this is an X–Y problem.

He wants X but thinks Y is the way to get X so asks how to get Y.

Robusto

16 hours ago, by Robusto

Sorry, we don't open for ego-salving until 9:00 a.m. EST

George Capote

if I summarized it in a chat-friendly sentence or two, would you advise me on whether or not it's on topic?

Robusto

16:11

Shoulda got here sooner.

George Capote

@tchrist is totally right. but I think I can formulate it so that it works for the site.

Robusto

We close at 10:00.

George Capote

only an hour?

Mitch

@GeorgeCapote Often, mathematical meaning is just truth value. That is not what one usually expects when talking about language.

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote Except on the first Monday of the week, when the ego-salving service is suspended during the regularly scheduled fire drill.

George Capote

16:14

the following sentences: "This morning I asked a question on ELU", "I asked a question on ELU this morning", "This morning, a question was asked by me on ELU", "I asked a question on ELU today before it was noon." <-- do these sentences have the "same meaning" by a reasonably accepted definition thereof? By which common meanings of "same meaning" would those sentences not have the same meaning? Explain.

yes yes, but I am very angry and will be insistent.

my actual question would be better thought out.

is thought-out hyphenated usually?

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote Reply hazy try again.

But we are now up to 15 answers.

George Capote

oh no >.< now Hans Adler is back in.

Mitch

@GeorgeCapote They make the listener feel different things, all very similar but not identical. They have 'mostly the same meaning' but not identical meanings.

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote It is decidedly so.

George Capote

how does their meaning differ?

of course they make you feel different things

I could play Beethoven like a robot and you wouldn't feel anything. but I'm still playing the same notes!

they're said differently, they're not identical, but they are conveying the literal exact same idea.

user116848

16:19

@Mitch Can I say both had/have here: "We were wondering if you'd/have given any thought as to what we're gonna tell the crew of this ship."

George Capote

they're said differently, they're not identical, but they are conveying the literal exact same idea.

anyway, on-topic or should I just give up and actually do some jira tasks today...?

Mitch

@GeorgeCapote Then we need to specify a common exact meaning of 'meaning'. Because it is slippery, and you're choosing one side and others are choosing the other side.

George Capote

that seems to be a lot of good questions on this site though. people usually ask for what's most common or what most people mean.

I suppose that's how English works?

Mitch

@Arrowfar Yes, you can say '...if you'd given...' or '...you've given...' but they are not identical in meaning.

very close, just not identical.

user116848

@Mitch Okay. So with have, my sentence is still grammatical?

Mitch

16:38

The situation is you were asked what we're gonna tell the crew.
The difference is:
had - subtle expectation that something else relevant happened in the meantime.
have -without that expectation

both grammatical.

Depends on context which is best.

George Capote

17:13

sigh. I'm asking how to not use regex to parse html and some guy's comment is "Please don't use regex to parse html."

super constructive.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Some people don't read the questions carefully before answering.

George Capote

oh, great, he linked me to his brilliant 30 page post on why I shouldn't use regex to parse html.

yeah, I suppose I shouldn't fuss about it.

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote Where?

George Capote

here

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I posted a Q on SU about fonts not working and got answers ranging from "ask how to do html on SO" to "install the fonts" (I did, duh, and said so) to "just specify the font in the document" (I did, that part works, I said so in the Q, that isn't what I'm asking about)

George Capote

17:17

hahaha. tchrist swoops in

/ everyone stand back /

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 this is what happens when you aren't strict with noobs. noobs start running the shop

j/k

tchrist

You’re actually going through the DOM, not trying to parse HTML. There is no reason whatso<TMETIC EXPLETIVE>ever why not to use a pattern match on the content of the duly retrieved DOM elements, and in fact, every reason to do so.

@MattЭллен Aren’t noobs those things that victims of breast cancer who’ve had a mastectomy get put in as replacements for the excised tissue?

George Capote

yeah, I figured. the guy did suggest a thing though. I didn't think of xpath.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен My Q has 4 answers. 3 of them are wrong before they're posted, so I downvoted them. One is right, but doesn't solve the problem at all, so I didn't vote it up.

tchrist

And if you can parse that, you’re a better man than the Stanford Parser.

George Capote

17:22

but are the wrong ones... dangerously wrong?

(I read that in the help docs for this site. you should only downvote if they are dangerously wrong)

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote Why? And also, define dangerous?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgeCapote Well, they are wrong in that they completely and totally fail to address the question as asked, and instead address other, hypothetical questions I did not ask.

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote xpath is pretty darned popular. I in this case might hazard to presume this is some proxy measure of its usefulness, however unreasonable that would be as a generality.

George Capote

why what? I was being disingenuous with the dangerous comment.

kwak

i.imgur.com/qe2kV89.gif ...

Cerberus

17:26

@tchrist So have you looked up the etymologies yet?

Singe is from Latin simia, "ape".

George Capote

I wonder if that guy with the xpath answer downvoted Mr. Shiny's answer...

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote I was unaware that there was anything anywhere purporting that the sole justification for downvoting was peril.

Cerberus

Guenon appears to be from the germanic root water.

kwak

!!learn run "<>i.imgur.com/qe2kV89.gif"

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, I know. It’s the morphological sexual dimorphism that perplexes me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:27

@GeorgeCapote Must be. my witty comment seems to have caused him to undo his downvote.

George Capote

> When should I vote down?
Use your downvotes whenever you encounter an egregiously sloppy, no-effort-expended post, or an answer that is clearly and perhaps dangerously incorrect.

but once again, I was just messing around.

Matt Эллен

@kwak Jarvis is absent

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@kwak what? why!? Because having the rear tire hit your legs is fun?

Jez

yay, england 1-2-3 in the squash :-P

tchrist

@Cerberus I suppose guenon is closer to genau than to mais non. :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:29

@GeorgeCapote I consider it egregiously sloppy to answer questions that were not asked instead of the one that was asked. At least, without justification for why the OQ is wrongly formulated, or something.

tchrist

@MattЭллен Did anyway bring an athame for drawing the summoning matrix with?

Cerberus

@tchrist OK well, the etymologies do not explain how they came to be most frequently used for those sexes.

tchrist

Lamentably not.

George Capote

yes yes, Mr. Shiny. I don't even know which question/answers you were talking about. I just wanted to say something I thought was worth a chuckle.

Cerberus

Genau is from water as well?

I can hardly believe that...

tchrist

17:31

No no.

George Capote

I'm not one to talk about the proper reasons to downvote, with my obvious ego/anger issues.

Cerberus

OK.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist I don't know

tchrist

I meant that there is no /e/ in the first syllable.

Cerberus

But anyway, you now know how to look up the etymologies of French words.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:32

8

Q: Some Unicode fonts not working in Windows 7

My use-case is that I want to display Egyptian Hieroglyphics: 𓀀 𓀁 𓀂 𓀃 𓀄 𓀅 𓀆 𓀇 𓀈 𓀉 𓀊 𓀋 𓀌 𓀍 𓀎 𓀏 𓀐 𓀑 𓀒 𓀓 𓀔 𓀕 𓀖 𓀗 𓀘 𓀙 𓀚 𓀛 𓀜 𓀝 𓀞 𓀟 𓀠 𓀡 𓀢 𓀣 These are part of Unicode 5.2. I tried installing the Aegyptus font, as well as the Google Noto fonts. The result is t...

tchrist

Thanks.

Cerberus

@tchrist E is often /ə/.

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, of course.

George Capote

that's hilarious

am I supposed to see the hieroglyphics?

Andrew Leach

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh well, there's your problem, right there, mate, in the question. I mean, Windows 7, innit! Sixty quid, please.

George Capote

17:35

is there a /me in this chat? or am I going to look like an idiot?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇: 𓀇 𓀈 𓀉 𓀊 𓀋 𓀌 𓀍 𓀎 𓀏 𓀐 𓀑 𓀒 𓀓 𓀔 𓀕 𓀖 𓀗 𓀘 𓀙 𓀚 𓀛 𓀜!! — Cerberus 13 secs ago

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@AndrewLeach -1 reading comprehension. It works in other windows 7s

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Something smells very wrong about the Chrome notion.

Cerberus

Ouch!

I didn't know Chrome was that bad.

@GeorgeCapote Yes. I see them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist The Chrome answer? I tried the plugin. It doesn't work.

tchrist

17:36

I see dead characters.

George Capote

I feel so left out...

tchrist

I call it the seventh sense.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgeCapote You would see them, if you had the right fonts installed, and were using FF, and don't have whatever it is that is preventing my workstation from doing the right thing.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not having a fontsub algo unless both those hold true seems broken by misdesign.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Yeah but I can verify that Chrome doesn't work at all on any of my test machines, real or virtual, for automatically showing the hieroglyphs.

George Capote

17:38

I'm going to install them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Also it seems that the font-sub isn't fully broken in Chrome. I think the problem only happens on SMP characters. frickin' SMP.

tchrist

Furthermore, there seems to be a superserious misunderstanding about what a language is, what a script is, and what a font is.

George Capote

I think the exchange between you and Artjom could be constructive to leave.

tchrist

makes his saving throw against epilepsy

George Capote

even though one is a nonsensical rant and the other is an interesting read.

tchrist

17:41

I would like a linkban against Zalgo.

And pie.

à la mode.

Cerberus

@tchrist Dead?

tchrist

@Cerberus Holy.

Cerberus

Not quite the same thing.

tchrist

Hieroglyphics are dead characters. And holy ones.

Not to mention wholly dead.

Cerberus

They are holy glyphs.

tchrist

17:45

I said that already.

Twice even.

Mitch

You forgot the clicking — Artjom B. 24 mins ago

tchrist

Poor Martha. She has a sticky keyboard.

George Capote

I see that this is the beginning of the end of the its/it's question. if you guys tell me that it's completely non-constructive and useless to post my "same meaning" question, I won't post it. otherwise I will, as otherwise all will be lost.

awkward dual 'otherwise' please ignore it.

Mitch

@GeorgeCapote post it on philosophy, not here.

George Capote

I'm not quite confident enough for that.

tchrist

17:48

She is clamatorially stuttering, the poor dear.

ANYTHING CAN BE GOOGLED!!!!!!!!!! That doesn't make the results authoritative, reliable, or correct. This is not a general reference question, and anyone who voted to close it as such needs to have their close-voting privileges revoked. Enough already! — Marthaª Jul 24 at 20:32

George Capote

you know how those philosophers can get.

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote I would not bother if it were up to me.

George Capote

okay, it's scrapped. I need to metaphorically take a chill pill.

kwak

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 hitting the rear tire while using it? nah I don't think you do, it would be like walking on a line, unnatural

George Capote

how is that rant saying regular expressions isn't sophisticated? this isn't a matter of sophistication...

I just took a literal entire class on regular expressions

actually, this is probably just a moot point

lalala.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:56

@GeorgeCapote are you referring to the "don't-parse-html-with-regex" rant? The point is that you cannot express arbitrary html parsing with a single regex, because regex isn't capable of doing that.

George Capote

I'm just picking on the word choice.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not true for most people.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist The key word is "arbitrary"

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote Yes, we’ve all had automata theory.

George Capote

maybe if the rant explained better, it just seems to repeat itself though.

I got an A in it ^.^

tchrist

17:58

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is difficult to write a pattern for matching arbitrary HTML, and nearly foolish to try. But that does not mean it cannot be done.

George Capote

I'm not sure how though... I think the professor was very nice to us.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist A single pattern?

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 As I said.

Johan Larsson

@Matt Please come and lurk

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…