English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

21:00

Good.

George Capote

still nothing compared to most large western European cities, but very good nonetheless.

the problem is, this is only the bigger, better cities. most places have nothing.

Cerberus

There is a village near our country house where there is literally no public transportation at all. If you try to plan a route through the public-transport website, it just says "impossible".

George Capote

even bigger problem is intercity rail. some big cities (though surprisingly not some, like SF doesn't have an Amtrak station) have an Amtrak station, which is the rail service company here.

Amtrak doesn't have its own train tracks. except for some few places in the northeast.

Cerberus

So who owns the tracks, then?

George Capote

so if you want to take a train from, say, SF, to Chicago... on top of the fact that it'll take several days since there's no high speed network, the trains work on cargo company-owned tracks, like BNSF and Union Pacific

Cerberus

21:01

The state?

George Capote

nope. private cargo lines.

CSX too is a big one

Cerberus

Ah OK.

George Capote

and Norfolk Southern

Cerberus

Well, those can work.

George Capote

barely.

they have agreements, but cargo trains have priority. so passenger trains have to pull on sidings all the time to let the cargo train by.

Cerberus

21:02

Of course it is more difficult to build a train network that covers all in a less densely populated area.

George Capote

the passenger trains are also very old, they haven't been replaced since the 60s. they have no money, and nobody uses them.

Cerberus

Ahh I see.

George Capote

also, for example, chicago -> new york has only one or two trains a day.

and it takes over 24 hours. the drive with a car is just under 12

isn't this absurd?

this is why nobody uses them, so they are a money drain. people usually take a plane, which gives money to the airlines, which lobby to further stop public transport.

skullpatrol

Obviously time is money

Cerberus

Hmm so why does it take so long? Non-high-speed trains should be able to go about as fast as cars, long distance?

George Capote

21:04

right, but if you look at something other than the immediate today, putting more money into public transport will eventually make our system better. so maybe one day there could be a high speed train from chicago to new york, so people wouldn't have to fly.

they can't. like I said, they have to pull over to let a cargo train by all the time.

Andrew Leach

And I thought we had it bad in the UK.

George Capote

and they are usually limited to around 50mph. with a car it's about 70

or even 80 if you're a bad ass like me and don't care about anyone's rules.

Cerberus

I see. That makes it considerably more difficult, yes.

George Capote

(at least we don't have speed cameras @AndrewLeach)

heehee

Andrew Leach

Speed cameras are fine. I haven't any points on my licence.

Now, anyway.

skullpatrol

21:07

They're whole country is under surveillance

George Capote

I have it on good authority that they aren't whole country is under surveillance.

Cerberus

So it is about 790 miles from NY to Chicago. That should take about 12 hours by train if you go 100 km/h on average.

George Capote

I think we should be able to develop a train that can go at least 200-300km/h though.

Cerberus

By high-speed train, it should be 4 hours, maybe 4.5.

George Capote

exactly!

this would be excellent.

Cerberus

21:08

Yes, they go 300 in France.

Andrew Leach

And Japan. Buy Japanese.

Cerberus

That should be faster than flying, depending on boarding times and such (flying is cumbersome here).

George Capote

even more so here.

we have the TSA.

Cerberus

Yes, Japan has the best trains! So they say.

Except that they are overstuffed.

George Capote

basically, we're in a public transport hell.

well, in my experience Swiss trains are marginally better than Japanese.

less stuffed, more luxurious.

and just as on-time and prevalent.

Cerberus

21:10

So how long does it take to go from NYC to Chicago by plane, including all the required rituals?

Yes, Swiss trains are good.

George Capote

around 4 hours.

3.5 if your plane isn't late, you cut it close at the airport, and have a ride.

Cerberus

Right! And a train is much more convenient.

George Capote

taking the words out of my hands(?)

Cerberus

No hassle, no check-in, and you can get some work done.

George Capote

yeah. and you can walk around, get a sandwich.

Cerberus

21:11

@GeorgeCapote Right, you should probably include the time it takes to get from the airport to the city, let's say by taxi.

George Capote

and it's just more... modern. I feel like everything here is so old.

Cerberus

Aeroplanes are modern!

George Capote

exactly. my house in Chicago is an hour from the airport.

I see shinkansen and TGV as much more modern.

Cerberus

Then again, you might not live next to the train station either.

It kind of depends on where you live.

George Capote

it's definitely closer to most people. airports have to be away from an urban center.

whereas train stations are generally right in the middle.

Cerberus

21:12

I live next to the central station, but the airport is about 20 minutes by train from there, so it matters little.

@GeorgeCapote True.

George Capote

what I notice too is the thought that goes into it.

here, say I'm at home in Chicago. and I want to go visit my cousin in New York.

Cerberus

I love going to Paris by train, even though it takes slightly longer than by plane.

George Capote

I have to start planning a week ahead.

two weeks, hell even a month.

to get a good deal on a plane ticket.

Cerberus

Hmm, well, the same can happen with high-speed train tickets.

George Capote

if I'm at my house in Zürich, I just go to Hauptbahnhof by streetcar, and ask for a ticket to London.

Cerberus

21:14

Where you get a bad deal, or the train is just full.

George Capote

I'm exaggerating.

but it's certainly easier to get around.

and certainly cheaper than airplanes, I believe.

Cerberus

The train to Paris.

George Capote

from?

Cerberus

It's very expensive if I want to book a ticket now. From Amsterdam.

Normally it's €40 or so.

If you book early.

George Capote

that's very good. compare it to flying the equivalent distance in the US, and I bet it's cheaper in either case.

but, look. part of the mentality is also this:

here, you ask someone what comes to mind as options if you want to travel Chicago -> New York?

they'll answer you either fly, or you drive.

or if you're dirt poor, you take a bus.

there, I'll bet the first thing to come to mind is the train, with maybe flying as second

it would be to me, at least.

Cerberus

21:20

Okay, it's € 200 by plane on July 30, and it takes 5 hours, including one transfer. So the train is definitely better, even at the last moment.

George Capote

yep.

Cerberus

@GeorgeCapote Yes, well, kind of. It depends. People will often think of both plane and train at the same time.

George Capote

that's still better than plane and car, to me.

Cerberus

Probably.

George Capote

everything I say is obviously super biased from the standpoint of someone who really likes trains and public transport.

Cerberus

21:22

A direct flight to Paris would take 1.15 hours, but it's €500...

George Capote

also, here's another thing

can you think of a place in NL to which you could not get by public transport?

Cerberus

Here, people who have to commute to a different city will usually think of both car and train. It depends on their exact location. Besides that, each has its advantages and disadvantages.

George Capote

is there anywhere you'd need to go to which you'd have to drive?

Cerberus

@GeorgeCapote Yes, the village of Haarle, which is where our country house is.

I could probably take a "public-transport taxi", which is a cheap kind of taxi that you have to book in advance.

George Capote

I also just found a bus stop there on google maps.

Cerberus

21:24

Really?

George Capote

> Haarle gem Hellendoorn, t Kruuspunt
Netherlands

Cerberus

Whenever I fill in the destination on the public-transport website, it has "no rout found"..

Hmm let me try that...

skullpatrol

So much for impossible :D

George Capote

in any case it's possible. on the other hand, this summer, my girlfriend went home to her place in southern Virginia. and I'm here in upstate New York. I drove there to visit her, it took 12 hours. she took the bus to come visit me, it took (I'm not kidding) 26 hours.

skullpatrol

I'm possible

Cerberus

21:27

Wow, you are right! That bus line is new.

It used to be impossible.

George Capote

the plane would take 5 hours, have one connection, and cost $600 round trip.

Cerberus

Ouch, 26 hours.

George Capote

and we're lucky that the place where she lives is accessible by bus. airport is about an hour away.

there are many places here to which you flat out cannot get without a car.

Cerberus

But it makes sense that public transport is worse in places where people live farther apart: there is less of a tax base for the network.

George Capote

and I mean common places, not some guy's farm in the desert.

Cerberus

21:28

I guess it kind of makes sense if a town is very far away from the nearest other town?

George Capote

that's not necessarily true. there are plans, funding, technology to solve the problem, but big corporations stop it. they wouldn't sell as much gas to airlines and people.

Cerberus

Do you really think lobbying is the real cause behind it?

George Capote

yes!

Cerberus

I mean, it also costs the government money, which they really hate spending.

George Capote

like the Texas thing I mentioned earlier. the people of Texas supported a high speed rail network connecting the three biggest cities in Texas.

Cerberus

21:29

That's pretty awful...

George Capote

they wanted it because it would be more convenient, cheaper, and just better in every way.

Cerberus

But how much did it cost, and was the government prepared to bear the costs?

George Capote

I don't know how much it cost, and yes.

it was in its final planning stages.

Cerberus

New train lines are cancelled here when they turn out to be too expensive for the results.

George Capote

it would've made a profit too

since everyone wanted it.

Cerberus

21:30

That doesn't have to be true?

George Capote

the three biggest cities in Texas have a huge market for travel between them.

a market that Southwest Airlines serves.

Cerberus

Even if the tickets are expensive?

George Capote

well, now they buy plane tickets.

which, yes, are expensive.

Cerberus

Of course I have no idea, but it is theoretically possible that very long tracks through the desert would make the train tickets so expensive that they couldn't compete with planes?

George Capote

I doubt it.

besides, the big Texas cities aren't too far apart.

and it's not desert

skullpatrol

21:34

Have you been there?

George Capote

it's no conspiracy theory that the interest of big oil companies comes before convenient public transport here.

there are many situations where it's difficult, I'll admit.

for example, a Chicago -> west coast high speed line would be nearly impossible

but I'm not asking for that. I'm asking for baby steps.

Cerberus

Right, I know there is a lobbying problem.

George Capote

some development. but it's the opposite. they've been tearing it down since the 60s

Chicago used to have all electric tramways. until they were bought by a gas company and they tore down the electric cables and put in diesel buses.

that's going backwards in my opinion.

Cerberus

But it's funny that companies actually lobby against public infrastructures, I don't think we have that here. Shell lobbying against a new train line?

A gas company, being an oil company?

George Capote

yeah.

gas = petrol in American english.

Mitch

21:36

@GeorgeCapote Think of it as a leisure trip.

Cerberus

That's pretty evil...

What do you call a gas company, then?

George Capote

I think it was like Exxon or something similar.

Cerberus

I mean, a company that produces/distributes actual gas?

George Capote

they drill for it, refine it, and sell it.

BP, Shell, Exxon, etc. I call them gas companies. is this unusual?

maybe.

I suppose I should say oil companies.

skullpatrol

Oil=gas

Cerberus

21:38

Gasunie

N.V. Nederlandse Gasunie (short form: Gasunie) is a Dutch natural gas infrastructure and transportation company operating in the Netherlands and Germany. Gasunie owns the Netherlands gas transmission network with a total length of over 12,000 kilometres (7,500 mi) and 3,100 kilometres (1,900 mi) long network in Germany. == History == Gasunie was founded in 1963 as a public-private partnership of Royal Dutch Shell (25%), ExxonMobil (25%) and the state of the Netherlands (50%) to sell and distribute natural gas from the then recently discovered gasfield in the province of Groningen. In 2005...

What would you call this?

Apparently, Exxon participates in it...

So they sell actual gas.

George Capote

an oil company or gas company.

Mitch

@Cerberus Ugh, why go by plane? That's two extra modes of transport to deal with, getting to and from the airport. On the train you're there.

George Capote

I think you're right that oil company is a more common term.

Cerberus

But the Gasunie has nothing to do with oil.

So what would you call it?

George Capote

now that I'm thinking about it I don't know what I would say in normal conversation.

skullpatrol

21:39

Gas comes from oil

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, well, it depends on where you live and where your destination is. The airport is only 20 minutes by train from here. But I guess the airport is farther away in Paris, so, yes, it might take somewhat longer.

@skullpatrol I am talking about actual gas here, not the stuff used in cars.

Mitch

I wouldn't need to use it in normal conversation.

Cerberus

How do you mean?

@GeorgeCapote Hmm...maybe "natural-gas company"?

skullpatrol

Like natural gas?

George Capote

to me, the bottom line is, I was much happier living in Zürich than anywhere in the US. so I'm going to try my best to move back there after I graduate!

Mitch

21:41

"Hey honey, can you pass the ketchup and by the way what do you think about them gas/oil companies?"

George Capote

or somewhere in Germany. NL and DK work too. hell, even Norway.

but I can't really speak any of their languages.

skullpatrol

Then you're stuck.

George Capote

:D

Cerberus

If you managed to get around in Zúrich, you will be able to do the same in other German areas.

George Capote

I meant the other languages. my German is decent

Cerberus

21:44

And you can get around in Holland and Scandinavia with just English.

Ah OK.

George Capote

or should I say, my schwitzerdütsch

and my French and Italian even better.

Cerberus

It will be relatively easy for you to learn a Scandinavian language, and Dutch even more so, which is in between English and German.

Yay!

George Capote

I spoke French before English, actually.

Cerberus

Oh!

George Capote

because my parents are cultural lunatics.

Cerberus

21:45

Where were you born?

Great!

I wish my French were better.

George Capote

Chicago. I learnt Romanian first and went to an all French school.

Cerberus

Cool.

And you parents spoke French with you?

George Capote

my father did.

I heard Dutch is similar to German.

it sounds nice to me. I've liked German more than any other language I've experienced. I'm even minoring in German language in school.

Schwiizertüütsch

Schwyzerdütsch

hilarious.

Cerberus

Hehe.

Küchenkästlein is what we learned as a Schwyzerdütsch word that shows the weird pronunciation.

George Capote

the trouble learning German in Switzerland was that whenever I'd try to compose some sentence for some guy they'd be like 'oh no no, it's okay; I speak English!'

Cerberus

21:51

Heh yes.

It is the same here.

George Capote

and they'd look so excited and proud... I couldn't snap back that I don't want to speak English.

Cerberus

But even Parisians do that when I start in French, so...

George Capote

haha! so the French aren't as France-oriented as they used to be I suppose.

Cerberus

Yeah, you're more likely to learn German in a private setting with a group of friend, something like that.

George Capote

in university here it's hard, since they teach you too much literature/culture/grammar/etc and not enough just plain and simple conversation.

Cerberus

21:52

In my experience, they have become fairly liberal and welcoming, at least in Paris. But other people experience different things...

tchrist

What, this crap is still here?!

Cerberus

Yeah, we never got enough practice actually conversing in French/German in high school, it's mainly about reading. Which makes sense, but still.

@tchrist Hello. What crap?

George Capote

it does make sense. I'm not saying we should learn it in a busted way.

tchrist

@GeorgeCapote You are being as foolish as a spoiled little rich kid. The simple reason that trains won't work in America is basic arithmetic and simple economics. Europe is a tiny place; America is not. Read this article, do the numbers, and cease and desist with your whining based on ignorance not reality.

George Capote

we're over trains already.

tchrist

21:53

I have to take a one-day trip this week and it would be sheer madness to turn that into a five-day nightmare. I simply would not put up with that nonsense. Pay me $4,000 and I'll consider it; otherwise, it's pure crap and everybody over the age of 2 knows this.

Please, by all means, move back to Europe -- and put us out of your misery. And yes, I have lived there before on multiple occasions and travelled and worked in nearly every country south of Hadrian's Wall. I do know what I'm talking about. You don't. Please educate yourself.

George Capote

now we're talking about languages.

relax.

tchrist

Bah.

Children.

Cerberus

@tchrist Umm where did that come from? Manners!

tchrist

Right.

George Capote

also, back me up here @Cerberus. I wasn't whining or bitching.

he was asking me questions

and I was answering them.

tchrist

21:54

Yes, you were.

Cerberus

@tchrist Just because you disagree, doesn't mean you have to be like that.

tchrist

I would be glad to quote your whining.

And prove you are wrong.

George Capote

and giving my opinion on what I think would work. sure, I'm wrong if you say so.

tchrist

When you say you were not whining.

Because you were absolutely complaining.

Cerberus

@GeorgeCapote You were fine. But apparently it is a sensitive topic to some people.

George Capote

21:55

I was for a bit, but it was mainly part of a conversation

tchrist

I challenge you to deny this.

Cerberus

There is nothing wrong with complaining.

George Capote

I'm not denying. it was conversational. I was giving my opinion.

skullpatrol

I told him to move long time ago

Cerberus

We all do it.

tchrist

21:55

Go read the article.

I will be damned if I am going to give up a week of my life for a four-hour meeting.

George Capote

sure, but I'm not arguing or complaining anymore.

tchrist

Even a six-hour one.

And I am certainly not going to pay 5x what it should cost for the privilege, either.

Cerberus

@GeorgeCapote Ignore it. It has to do with people's moods rather than anything else.

tchrist

It’s economics, kid.

It has to do with money.

Who pays for what, and how.

Cerberus

If you don't like the topic, why do you bring it up again?

George Capote

21:57

I prefer socialism.

tchrist

That’s nice.

George Capote

yep.

Cerberus

We already switched to a different topic.

tchrist

Go read the article.

George Capote

anyway, sorry tchrist, I'm not trying to piss you off.

I really am not.

we were talking about trains for a bit, then about languages. fairly reasonable.

tchrist

21:58

Then please read the article so you get some actual numbers behind you before you spout off again.

Cerberus

@tchrist If you are willing to be nice and friendly, I will read your article.

skullpatrol

Distance distance distance

tchrist

It is embarrassing to watch.

Cerberus

How's that for a deal?

George Capote

@tchrist I completely agree with the guy in the article.

tchrist

21:59

Then you see that you are not being reasonable.

George Capote

my argument/whining was more of a wishing for a fantasy-land, where we had already developed a good infrastructure and it was cheaper to go by train.

of course I'm not being reasonable. I have no expectation of the US to become the way I want it.

tchrist

Trains have a sweet spot.

And you refuse to recognize that.

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