English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitFox

17:00

I was trying to figure it out. It's a noun phrase and not a verb, maybe? Which I think is what you are saying.

tchrist

All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.

Zoe

It's very hard to explain ain't it.

KitFox

Yes.

skullpatrol

7 mins ago, by skullpatrol

I don't like the sound of the second one

tchrist

samples COCA collocations

KitFox

17:01

You'd say "I need to go work." but that is "I need to go and work."

It's not "I need to go and walking."

Zoe

Haha, I need to go working.

KitFox

Or "I need to go and running."

I need to go working sounds like you are looking for a job.

Zoe

Oh my I have stars >

It does

treating working as an activity rather than an act

KitFox

So the constructions must be different.

Zoe

And yes I really regret buying a pack of purple yakults. Urgh.

KitFox

17:02

I don't know what those are.

Zoe

Grape Yakults or the rival, Vitagen

skullpatrol

To go walking everyday is apart of my exercise routine.

Zoe

@skullpatrol I can parse that.

KitFox

@Zoe I still don't know what those are.

@skullpatrol a part

Zoe

@KitFox Oh man!

@KitFox Yes

skullpatrol

17:04

To go for a walk everyday is a part of my exercise routine.

Zoe

A PART

I think

To go for a walk everyday is part of my exercise routine.

sounds nicer?

skullpatrol

sure

KitFox

Taking a walk every day is part of my exercise routine.

Zoe

Okay I get it

skullpatrol

we want "go walking"

Zoe

17:06

In English, it's best not to repeat words. So, if you have a infront, you don't need a at the back.

KitFox

Yeah. "Walking" is quasi-equal to "a walk" there.

Zoe

So, "To go for a walk" does not or should not have "a" at the back?

tchrist

Top 100 collocations for go + VERB.ing in COCA, ranked:

#  1. 625 / 2697 23.2% of  23.2% shopping
#  2. 344 / 2697 12.8% of  35.9% looking
#  3. 124 / 2697  4.6% of  40.5% running
#  4. 109 / 2697  4.0% of  44.6% swimming
#  5.  85 / 2697  3.2% of  47.7% hiking
#  6.  69 / 2697  2.6% of  50.3% marching
#  7.  66 / 2697  2.4% of  52.7% walking
#  8.  62 / 2697  2.3% of  55.0% flying
#  9.  52 / 2697  1.9% of  57.0% dancing
# 10.  51 / 2697  1.9% of  58.8% getting
# 11.  47 / 2697  1.7% of  60.6% missing
# 12.  44 / 2697  1.6% of  62.2% exploring
# 13.  42 / 2697  1.6% of  63.8% riding

skullpatrol

@KitFox quasi-equality is studied by graduate math students :)

Zoe

It's like sentences with three "that"s are not grammatically wrong. It's just, who would parse that? Not any good teachers that I know of, that's for sure.

KitFox

17:07

What were we doing with misheard questions?

tchrist

Closing as off-topic due to one-shots unlikely to help further visitors.

skullpatrol

# 7. 66 / 2697 2.4% of 52.7% walking

tchrist

For royal values of we.

KitFox

I had something I liked, but I can't remember what question it was on.

Zoe

lol VERB.ing

KitFox

17:09

What was the last didn't hear something right question? It was just a few days ago?

tchrist

At most.

@Zoe Why funny?

KitFox

"To go brrring"? That must be a telephone noise?

skullpatrol

@tchrist you really don't like "lol" do you?

tchrist

@skullpatrol You think its septimal placing significant, do you?

@skullpatrol I don’t understand the humor here.

It is not a matter of like or dislike. It is a matter of failing to understand.

skullpatrol

oh, pardon me

Zoe

17:11

@tchrist It's like trying to find the correct word to describe an action but for lack of vocabulary knowledge or lack of brain cells, we reduce our intended descriptive word to end with -ing or -ish, even if it may or may not be found in the dictionary.

tchrist

@Zoe I was actually using the technical term for these things.

KitFox

Oh Frank Lee. That was it

tchrist

KitFox

@tchrist That's why I thought it was funny. Because it was the technical lingo and the description of turning a noun into a verb.

skullpatrol

ESLs ask some of the toughest questions

26 mins ago, by Ice Girl

@skullpatrol what is the difference between "walking" and "go walking"?

almost a half hour and NO conclusion!

tchrist

17:16

Chew on the corpse a while.

Zoe

OKay let's try this one more time.

KitFox

@skullpatrol I thought we figured it out 15 minutes ago.

Zoe

@KitFox We figured out how to parse each word in a different sentence. Not the difference, per say.

skullpatrol

@tchrist my teeth hurt :)

tchrist

Then just masticate.

Zoe

17:19

@skullpatrol One obvious difference I guess - one is in present continuous tense while the other is in future continuous tense?

RegDwigнt

Only just noticed that the Inquisitve badge got implemented. So how the heck do I go about obtaining it?

skullpatrol

@Zoe Let's not forget that "Go." is the shortest English sentence.

RegDwigнt

I do have 30+ questions... and they are all upvoted.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Can you get a Spanish Inquisitive badge? Because nobody expects that.

Zoe

@skullpatrol Was the difference I stated correct or...?

KitFox

17:21

@Zoe I thought it was the difference between a verb and a noun phrase.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto Well I can't get any kind of Inquisitive badge, so.

Zoe

@KitFox Well, the tenses are slightly different, too? Slight different still means different :P

KitFox

@skullpatrol Oh. No. Um.

skullpatrol

@Zoe sounds right, but I'm not an "expert."

KitFox

@Zoe Nouns don't have tenses.

I [am walking]. I [am going] walking.

skullpatrol

17:23

If I was an "expert" I could do "anything."

Zoe

Well, this is weird, I do not have "go verb-ing" in the book I am referring to. But in a sentence, "is walking" is present continuous tense and "to go walking" is future continuous tense.

I guess it really depends if the asker wants the noun or verb comparison.

So, now we wait. Case closed. :D

KitFox

Hey, skully, ease up on the "expert" declaration.

skullpatrol

You're the one who introduced it to me with the video clip, remember?

KitFox

I do.

Zoe

I do have "is going to write" VS "is going to be written by", who wants to know the answer?

skullpatrol

17:27

@KitFox Now, you tell me to "ease up on it"?

Zoe

As in, the difference between the two. Just for fun.

KitFox

Well, in one, you are writing, in the other you are the thing being written.

RegDwigнt

Oh crap, so late already?

Now is the time of luncheh!

Zoe

I mean like "The famous author is going to write that book." VS "That book is going to be written by the famous author."

RegDwigнt

►

KitFox

17:29

@Zoe I don't see anything striking. So lay it on me.

Zoe

@KitFox Well, to everyone, the meaning is the same. The difference though, is that the former is a form of active text type while the latter is a form of passive text type.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt The SEDE query said you were supposed to have gotten it.

Zoe

This book is teaching me a lot which I have disregarded in the past.

KitFox

@Zoe Oh. Well, yes.

tchrist

I distinctly merember this.

RegDwigнt

17:31

Only got Curious.

tchrist

Oh, right.

Zoe

I have not read everything yet but in order for me to find "go verb-ing" in this book, I'll need to try very hard.

RegDwigнt

I can only guess the 34 questions are from less than 30 distinct days, but I can't be arsed to check every single question's timestamp, and I don't remember posting more than one question in a single day anyway.

tchrist

@Robusto That’s because of its length: el Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición is longer than you might imagine.

RegDwigнt

I dunno, doesn't that mean that by the time you're finished pronouncing it you absolutely should be expecting it? Law of large numbers and all.

skullpatrol

17:34

@Zoe what is the title of the book?

tchrist

So too its article.

Zoe

@skullpatrol "Everything you need to know about English, Upper Primary (Primary 4 to 6)" :D

Bought it to teach grammar to primary students.

skullpatrol

@Zoe nice

sounds like a classic

Zoe

@skullpatrol It has grammar, vocabulary, phrasal verbs, idioms and proverbs. Sample passages, explanations, rules, examples and practices.

Question: Without googling for answers, what does "go cap in hand to somebody" means?

Matt Эллен

it means to go to someone with you cap in your hand. figuratively that's usually in a contrite fashion

skullpatrol

17:38

go to somebody with your cap in your hand

RegDwigнt

Never heard that one.

Then again noöne at all wears caps.

JSBձոգչ

@skullpatrol it means you're asking for a handout or charity

marantou

@Zoe Hi..means to go asking for money or help...(begging for it)

KitFox

cap in hand means humbly.

RegDwigнt

I've seen sentences in caps, but never people.

marantou

17:39

Also hat in hand...

Zoe

Well almost there. It means to ask someone politely and sincerely for something.

KitFox

Because you took your cap off to address the person.

skullpatrol

like taking your hat off as a gesture of respect

marantou

Seriously?

KitFox

Yes.

Zoe

17:40

Going cap in hand is not begging.

Okay, for example, those englishmen you see in movies. They bow and take off their hats at the same time as a sign of manners

KitFox

"I don't understand why we let someone else rule our land, cap in hand."

It's like no one listens to the Proclaimers.

Zoe

It's like saying, "No offence but..."

Johan Larsson

Acting submissively in general imo.

marantou

Well, beggars holding out their cap for some change...that's the image I get

skullpatrol

1 min ago, by skullpatrol

like taking your hat off as a gesture of respect

Zoe

17:42

"James went cap in hand to his uncle to ask for a loan." or "She will probably forgive me if I go cap in hand to her."

It's a phrase I learnt from this primary school book!

RegDwigнt

Freedom goes cap in hand with mutual respect.

skullpatrol

ask respectfully or politely

marantou

And still...I can see the humility first and foremost...but where are you teachnig actually?

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Hand in handshoe.

Zoe

Next one: Without searching the internet, what does "a feather in your cap" mean?

Side note, it'll be nice if my students can use theses phrases :/

tchrist

17:43

@Zoe macaroni

KitFox

An accomplishment to be proud of.

RegDwigнt

Mmmmh... macaroni.

Zoe

@tchrist Are you trolling? Wahaha

KitFox

I am kind of hungry.

tchrist

@Zoe I’m singing.

RegDwigнt

17:44

It is the time of lunche.

Zoe

@KitFox That's correct! At what age did you learn this phrase?

tchrist

6.

skullpatrol

4

KitFox

@Zoe I don't know. Probably Yankee Doodle time.

Zoe

@marantou In a group tuition centre for subsidised children in Singapore.

RegDwigнt

17:44

OVER 9000

skullpatrol

master^

tchrist

25 or 6 to 4.

RegDwigнt

Seven-eleven.

tchrist

Your choice.

skullpatrol

:D

Zoe

17:45

Next: How about "With a fine-tooth comb"?

skullpatrol

carefully

tchrist

Ab ovo.

Matt Эллен

meticulously

RegDwigнt

Well. There's a question?

tchrist

Is there?

Matt Эллен

17:45

There is?

You have a question?

Zoe

I think that meaning of phrases should be precise and not one worded

tchrist

Where O where?

RegDwigнt

It explains itself in the most intrusive manner imaginable.

Zoe

That's what I would tell my students, anyways.

RegDwigнt

@Zoe and now is one word not more precise than many words?

tchrist

17:46

@Zoe “Worded”? “Phrases”?

skullpatrol

@Zoe one word is ok

Zoe

If not, they would start answering comprehension with one word for meaning of phrases.

One word is precise but does not precisely explain the meaning of the phrase.

RegDwigнt

If a phrase can be explained with a single word, find a better phrase that can't. If your goal is to get them talkin.

tchrist

@Zoe Are you saying phrases with the weight of opaque idiomatic expressions?

KitFox

Meticulously is about as precise as you can get for that.

skullpatrol

17:48

@Zoe conciseness needs to be taught also

but leave it to math

imo

tchrist

@skullpatrol And concision.

Zoe

@KitFox I do think meticulously is more precise than careful.

RegDwigнt

Brevity = wit.

tchrist

No, its soul.

RegDwigнt

That's wishy-washy weasel wording.

To fill gaping holes in your metrum.

A rookie poet's move.

tchrist

17:49

A stoat by any other name will still ravish the henhouse.

skullpatrol

@Zoe I would ask them to use as few words as possible, but not less than some number you pick

KitFox

Goodness. fans self

RegDwigнt

Everything should be made as simple as possible, just not simpler.

KitFox

Are you in the US right now, @Reg?

Zoe

@skullpatrol That could work. It would help in summary writing as well.

RegDwigнt

17:51

Like these macaroni I've been dreaming about for the last couple minutes.

skullpatrol

@Zoe Exactly

RegDwigнt

@KitFox I am not in the US right ever.

Zoe

How about this proverb: "There is a trick in every trade."

KitFox

@RegDwigнt Why is you eating schedule aligned with mine then?

RegDwigнt

Because I spent the night drinking and the forenoon sleeping.

Zoe

17:52

When I first saw it, I thought it meant that every business has it's own disadvantages or sleazy tricks. But it's actually not.

skullpatrol

accept tricks

or short cuts

Zoe

It means, "There is an established way of doing things."

tchrist

@skullpatrol As a flourish of strumpets.

RegDwigнt

There is a one-trick pony in every trade.

Life is a one-trick pony farm.

tchrist

Or ranch, even.

RegDwigнt

17:54

BBL

skullpatrol

@Zoe established "short-cuts" are important to accept

you don't wanna was your time on re-inventing the wheel

Zoe

Next, which is better? "the devil makes work for idle hands" or "the devil makes work of idle hands"? I feel like I hear the second one more often but the book writes the firt.

@skullpatrol That works.

skullpatrol

"the devil makes work for idle hands" sounds like the original version

switching "for" with "of" makes a difference in meaning imo

KitFox

Idle hands are the Devil's playground.

Is the only one I've heard.

marantou

Or workshop

KitFox

17:59

I haven't heard 'workshop' in that phrase before.

skullpatrol

@Zoe the devil is going to make work for you if you have idle hands

KitFox

Makes sense though.

Johan Larsson

@skullpatrol that is how regions were added to C#

marantou

@KitFox: Neither have I....just found out ;)

Zoe

I guess the first one denotes a choice/temptation while the second doesn't.

skullpatrol

18:01

"for" is a very important word for kids to be comfortable with

@Zoe start them with "For Sale"

Zoe

@skullpatrol True that.

skullpatrol

discuss what it really means

dig into the OED

it is an interesting search :-)

share your findings with them, and let them participate in the exploration

Zoe

Yea

tchrist

I gave her my ring for her hand. I gave her my ring for her necklace. For even though I gave her my ring, she did not accept my entreaty.

There are more completely different sense of for beyond those three.

This is not good.

GnomeSlice

@KitFox You were just flagged, in case you aren't aware.

KitFox

18:16

@GnomeSlice Thank you.

No, I'm sure it wasn't that. But thank you all the same.

GnomeSlice

@KitFox Hey you're not a fox any more.

KitFox

Ouch.

tchrist

Yes she is!

GnomeSlice

I mean a literal one. :P

Obviously still a fox

Man I suck at this chatroom

I have been away too long. I am out of practice.

etc.

tchrist

Take care: it can be a firehose that you would suckle.

skullpatrol

18:20

lol

GnomeSlice

►

KitFox

That took forever. I had to wait through a choppy commercial I couldn't skip.

GnomeSlice

Really? Mine was ad-free.

Weird.

At least my internet is great, now that I've moved out.

KitFox

Nobody sucking up your bandwidth?

GnomeSlice

Well I have a roomate I'm renting from, but my home internet is very rural. Barely works any more.

KitFox

18:30

Oh. That sucks for gaming.

GnomeSlice

Heh.

KitFox

I think I need more coffee. The days have been so grey lately.

Mahnax

Agreed.

tchrist

@KitFox Metaphor?

KitFox

Yes.

By the way, I noticed that you had edited some choice Meta posts recently. It cheered me.

tchrist

18:38

I had?

I can’t keep track, but didn’t remember doing so for meta. I don’t doubt it though. I edit so much.

There really is no need for “QUOTES” and “BOLD” and “ITALIC” when making the use–mention distinction. Italic alone suffices; the rest is mere distraction that messes up the page-look and comes across as yelling. Less is more. — tchrist 2 mins ago

GnomeSlice

18:56

Finding a job is stupid

I don't even want to do any of this

Who wants to be a security guard? Nobody.

Gotta get that paper

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…