English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Alraxite

00:02

As I had prophesied. Reg is no more.

In this room.

KitFox

And it was @Mr.Shiny, why you couldn't find it, @Reg.

Apr 16 '13 at 19:13, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> "In order to know how good you are at something requires exactly the same skills as it does to be good at that thing in the first place, which means that if you're absolutely no good at something at all then you lack exactly the skills which you need to know that you're no good at it. Which explains most of Hollywood and almost the entirety of Fox News." -- John Cleese

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt the toothpaste particles are actually really small, so they can theoretically sand the surface down to a shine. But in this case it didn't work as planned.

@KitFox lol, I forgot I posted that

KitFox

You are too brilliant.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt They launched the kit just in time for my birthday. But hey, at least you get AFOL days. There is no such there here, afaik

RegDwigнt

00:37

@KitFox precisely right. I knew I could count on you.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 K, guess I will try it then should the time come. Right now all my parts are in pristine condition, fingers crossed. Except for the ones I got from my brother.

KitFox

mind boggles Reg has a brother.

0

Q: Do we want to enable post limits?

The question of posting limitations was brought up several months ago, wherein we learned that there are post limits for some SE sites and not for others. We learned that the limitations are 6 questions per day and 50 questions per month, which everyone seemed to agree was quite reasonable. At ...

RegDwigнt

Actually when I'm in the mood to build something without knowing where I'm heading, I'll use those rubbish parts.

Cerberus

@Alraxite Is my last seen also 2 minutes ago when I'm in bed?

RegDwigнt

Total freedom to do as I please.

@KitFox oh but I am sure you knew it, just forgot.

chat.stackexchange.com/…

KitFox

I don't forget things about you.

RegDwigнt

00:39

Oct 30 '12 at 16:21, by RegDwighт

I'm channeling my brother ChrisDwight, or RedBurgh, I forget.

You were around at that exact moment!

KitFox

I thought you were joking.

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OIC happy belated, then!

Jan 17 '13 at 20:05, by RegDwighт

@Cerberus my brother goes in Irrecoverable Panic Mode as soon as there's any mention of a wasp having been seen in a radius of 1000 miles.

I've been giving away too much stuff in this room, it appears.

KitFox

I wasn't in the room at the time.

RegDwigнt

Yes yes it's okay.

KitFox

I was on the moon! In a Turkish prison! I was dead at the time!

@RegDwigнt Happy to be of use.

RegDwigнt

00:44

Stuff and nonsense, the Turkish lack the mad skillz to go to the moon.

Mitch

@kwak They asked for a history of linear programming? (it popped out of the head of Kantorovich in the 30's, and, because of politics, independently by Danzig in the 40's)

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt I see Mother Wisdom could not bless both siblings.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt They were brought there by the Estruscans, who certainly do have that ability.

RegDwigнt

Math checks out.

I concede.

KitFox

What is "wife-in-spe"?

Cerberus

00:45

IPM is required.

@KitFox Someone you hope will be your wife.

But the hyphens are hardly necessary.

KitFox

What's spe?

Cerberus

The ablative of spes, "hope, expectation".

RegDwigнt

In spe. To be.

Future.

KitFox

Oh, like fiancée.

RegDwigнt

Or whatever Cerberus ~~says~~ lies.

Cerberus

00:47

I'm sitting.

Like a good dog.

KitFox

betrothed.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus See, more lying.

Cerberus

@KitFox That implies the woman has committed herself. In spe implies no such thing...

Or at least not so strongly.

KitFox

intended?

Hmm. Desired?

RegDwigнt

So what's with the room description. I've been too lazy to check. And still am.

Cerberus

00:48

It is more like prospective. She might not know about your hope.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt Ask Rob.

RegDwigнt

I will point you right back to the lazy part.

Cerberus

Rob was being mean, so I made him change it. Or maybe it was Terdon.

RegDwigнt

Oh right, Rob changes things now that he's retired.

Cerberus

If you study history at university, you are an historian in spe.

RegDwigнt

00:49

Good thing I don't do such things.

Cerberus

You hope to be one.

@RegDwigнt It is all the moderation Rob can bear.

RegDwigнt

Hope is just loser talk for being.

KitFox

@Cerberus Don't let him see you write that.

RegDwigнt

I am not following. Thankfully I am drinking.

Cerberus

Then you need a leash.

RegDwigнt

00:51

Drink all things now.

Nov 22 '13 at 19:24, by RegDwigнt

Did you know that every second word in Russian is a euphemism for "drink all things now"? The rest being euphemisms for "your", "mother", or some combination thereof.

KitFox

Well, I told Rob I thought he was being mean and he's not speaking to me anymore.

RegDwigнt

Not that again.

Cerberus

That is unrelated.

KitFox

Again?

RegDwigнt

You should be friends or something.

KitFox

00:51

Still.

Cerberus

This is not about you.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt You tell him that.

He doesn't want anything to do with me.

RegDwigнt

Well, as much as I'd like to knit friendship bonds, I do have an obligation to this bottle, so excuse me for another hour or so.

Cerberus

You are excused!

KitFox

@RegDwigнt Sounds good. I think I shall find me some.

RegDwigнt

00:53

@Robusto: you should be friends with Kit or something. No, really.

Cerberus

Again, this had nothing to do with Kit.

RegDwigнt

Now that Jasper is back again (surprise!), y'all'd be funneh not to bury the tomahawk.

Cerberus

I haven't buried it either.

KitFox

@Cerberus What are you talking about?

Cerberus

But it doesn't matter any more.

KitFox

00:57

The room subtitle? I know that didn't have anything to do with me.

But I'm missing a bottle opener.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Johan Gustafsson is injured! :(

Cerberus

Who?

Robusto

01:12

@Cerberus A UFC/MMA fighter.

mmafighting.com/2014/7/23/5931631/…

Mitch

Obviously

Robusto

Not to Cerberus.

Mitch

It's obvious if you know everything

Robusto

Cerberus doesn't know everything. QED

@RegDwigнt We only serve stuff or nonsense here. You can't have both.

@RegDwigнt Turns out it warn't me what said that particular thing. Here's the quote I quoted which precipitated mention of said effect on the very next line:

Oct 21 '12 at 14:33, by Robusto

"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision" — Bertrand Russell

You know the answer already, but I was curious to track this down. I get blamed for so much around here, and it's good to realize it's not my memory that's going this time. I really didn't say half the things I said.

RegDwigнt

01:44

@Cerberus I just had to look up inexceptionable, again. To learn that it's unexceptionable, again.

Really true.

@Robusto right on, that must be the bit I've been still missing.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt At least it wasn’t irremarkable.

RegDwigнt

That I wouldn't have to look up. Thankfully.

tchrist

Why are you not unconscious??

RegDwigнt

So what is it with the room description, I dare to ask you, @Rob?

@tchrist that is a loaded question and I refuse to accept the premise.

Mitch

@Robusto "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."

tchrist

01:48

You refuse to accept the premise is that you are conscious? Reasonable.

RegDwigнt

Coito ergo etc.

Damn it, I actually misspole coito QED.

tchrist

Don’t tell the wife.

RegDwigнt

She is not around to be told.

In Cuxhaven, I believe.

tchrist

I figured that explained this.

She’s in Cuxhaven? I had no idea she was a Saxophone.

RegDwigнt

It appears that the central station in Cuxhaven is many dozens of miles away from anything at all, and you have to take yet another train, privatized, to get from there to anywhere. Which is still the precise middle of nowhere, of course.

tchrist

01:50

A private train??

RegDwigнt

Yeah German Railways has been taking the American approach as of late.

tchrist

Let me guess: you married a saxophone so you could make beautiful music together.

RegDwigнt

"We will get you to the precincts of Berlin, which is to say somewhere around Frankfurt, but from there on you are on your own."

tchrist

I thought you could take public transportation everywhere there.

RegDwigнt

Well yes. Still a pain in the buttocks.

It used to be that the state tracks led to every home.

tchrist

01:53

Last time I was in Frankfurt, Berlin was nowhere to be seen. Have they moved it again?

RegDwigнt

Omnia mutantur.

tchrist

You don’t even know that language.

RegDwigнt

Nihil Internet.

Cerberus

@Robusto Is that wrestling or boxing or something?

sniffs

RegDwigнt

Jun 21 at 11:56, by RegDwigнt

Also, boxing is rigged. I prefer wrestling.

tchrist

01:55

You sure talk about your wife a lot.

Boxing in ringed, not rigged.

RegDwigнt

Could be. Or it could be that I'm just not around a lot anymore.

tchrist

Well, we all know about Lot’s wife.

RegDwigнt

I really only ever mention her when she's not here.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt When in doubt, it's usually un-, is what Fowler taught me.

RegDwigнt

Because then I'm posting drunk.

tchrist

01:56

When in doubt, it’s usually ummmmmm.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus go away with your fowler language.

tchrist

Yeah, definitely for the birds.

Cerberus

*foreing language

RegDwigнt

*foreeeeeing taal

Cerberus

Vreemde taal.

Just like fremdsprachig.

Right?

RegDwigнt

01:57

Still missing a couple eeeeees here and there.

Fremdsprache.

Cerberus

You scream like a girl.

RegDwigнt

No eeeees anywhere to be seeeeeen.

tchrist

Dvergatal?

Cerberus

I only know the adjective.

RegDwigнt

Really disrespectful of you to use it as an adjective. Compound would be nicer.

Vreemdtaal.

Cerberus

01:58

Why?

tchrist

Compoundadjective?

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus that is the question I am asking you.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt That sounds German. We do not combine adjectives and substantives that way.

RegDwigнt

Q to the E to the D.

Cerberus

Like Großstadt.

RegDwigнt

01:59

Total disrespect.

Cerberus

Or how do you spell that?

We do say het grootkapitaal, but that is probably a word from Marx.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus precisely my point. Große Stadt is a completely different thing from a Großstadt.

Cerberus

In Dutch, we only have große Städte, no Großstädte.

RegDwigнt

And none of them are really groß, who are you even lying to.

Cerberus

The Randstad is pretty big.

RegDwigнt

02:00

But I must be off um mich zu betanken.

Cerberus

Like 7 million people? 10 million?

RegDwigнt

Isn't that a verscheekering?

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Haha. We say tanken in Dutch too.

@RegDwigнt What?

I can't make a word out of that hutspot.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus randstad.de

tchrist

Dogkettle?

Cerberus

02:02

That's a company.

RegDwigнt

Somehow I thought it was Dutch. Turns out it is Deutsch.

Cerberus

It is a Dutch company.

RegDwigнt

Same sameness.

Cerberus

Didn't know they had expanded to Germany.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus well then what the heck are you even asking about.

Cerberus

02:02

@tchrist Hotchpotch. Which is a Batavism.

@RegDwigнt The "word" verscheekering.

RegDwigнt

There is a BBL waiting for me.

@Cerberus that's how we pretend the Dutch call Versicherungen. Which is actually pretty much how they call them indeed.

Cerberus

Oooh. Verzekering.

RegDwigнt

See.

Cerberus

But the company Randstad is not about verzekeringen.

RegDwigнt

There is no limit to understanding if there's no limit to willingness.

Cerberus

02:04

Randstad

The Randstad (Dutch: Randstad, pronounced [ˈrɑntstɑt]) is a conurbation in the Netherlands. It consists of the four largest Dutch cities (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht), and the surrounding areas. With a population of 7,100,000 it is one of the largest conurbations in Europe,[b] comparable in size to Milan or the San Francisco Bay Area and covers an area of approximately 8287 km² [a]. It contains the largest European seaport in Rotterdam and one of the largest European Airports near Amsterdam. The Randstad's main cities are Almere, Amersfoort, Amsterdam, Delft, Dordrecht, Gouda, Haarlem...

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus it sure sounds like it is. Everything Dutch is a verzekering or a bloemen or a weeeeeindmueeeeehle.

Cerberus

RegDwigнt

> is a conurbation

Is a what?

Cerberus

A conurbation.

Tother-city-ation.

RegDwigнt

I am learning a new word as we speak.

Cerberus

02:05

In any other country, Amsterdam and The Hague and Rotterdam etc. would belong to one and the same city.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Cattown.

RegDwigнt

And I just looked up another word just for you. Windmolen.

Cerberus

But we do not allow cities to grow together, you can't build anywhere in the Randstad.

RegDwigнt

So windmills are wind moles in Dutch.

Cerberus

Nooo.

Molen is singular.

RegDwigнt

02:06

Yeeeeaaah.

Cerberus

And the plural of mol is mollen.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus Your language continues to make even less sense by the second.

@Cerberus yes yes lullen.

tchrist

They should be voles not moles.

RegDwigнt

Molare, oh-oh, cantare, oh-oh-oh-oh.

Cerberus

A short vowel in singular needs to remain short in plural, so you need a closed syllable in plural, so you need two consonants.

One ton, two tonnen.

One pot, two potten.

RegDwigнt

02:07

As I said, lullen.

Cerberus

However, one poot, two poten. Because it's a long vowel.

One lul, two lullen.

RegDwigнt

Don't forget to mention all your apostrophe's. Always good for a laugh.

But I did mention a BBL waiting for me.

tchrist

'tsure is.

RegDwigнt

So. BBL.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt They serve to distinguish between pronunciations, not functions, our apostropae's.

@RegDwigнt People are speaking German underneath my window now: "wer kommen Sie?".

"German".

tchrist

02:14

@Cerberus That’s just a Japanese tourist saying Welcomes he.

Cerberus

Haha.

tchrist

Verba deleta sunt.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Cerb told me to change it.

10 hours ago, by Cerberus

This room should be relabelled the Meanie Room's!

I added the (sic) to show I was only following orders (under duress).

He might have bitten me.

Mahnax

〖〗

tchrist

Stop wearing dresses.

Mahnax

02:28

Use those for the (sic) instead.

Robusto

10 hours ago, by Robusto

@Cerberus I am not Reg. But you are one (sic) puppy!

Thought I'd get a little love for that one, but it was not to be.

Cerberus

Well, you did.

@Mahnax What are those?

@tchrist Deleta sunt indicantia locum domus meae.

Mahnax

White lenticular brackets.

Cerberus

Oh.

Mahnax

fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/3017/index.htm

fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/3016/index.htm

Cerberus

02:40

What are they for?

Mahnax

Japanese and Chinese punctuation, apparently.

tchrist

‭ 〖 3016       LEFT WHITE LENTICULAR BRACKET
‭ 〗 3017       RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRACKET
‭ ︗ FE17        PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL LEFT WHITE LENTICULAR BRACKET
        # <vertical> 3016
‭ ︘ FE18        PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET
        % PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRACKET
        * misspelling of "BRACKET" in character name is a known defect
        # <vertical> 3017

Cerberus

Why not correct it?

tchrist

@Cerberus They fucked up the spelling for U+FE18, the sideways version, and because the Unicode name character property associated with a code point is immutable, such things cannot be fixed. Ever. You can only make an alias. Which they did.

Cerberus

Then mutate it.

tchrist

02:44

Once a code point is assigned a name, that name can never be changed.

It’s one of the earliest of the stability guarantees.

So they had to invent a whole new way of dealing with this.

# The Type labels used are: correction, control, alternate, figment, abbreviation
01A2;LATIN CAPITAL LETTER GHA;correction
01A3;LATIN SMALL LETTER GHA;correction
0709;SYRIAC SUBLINEAR COLON SKEWED LEFT;correction
0CDE;KANNADA LETTER LLLA;correction
0E9D;LAO LETTER FO FON;correction
0E9F;LAO LETTER FO FAY;correction
0EA3;LAO LETTER RO;correction
0EA5;LAO LETTER LO;correction
0FD0;TIBETAN MARK BKA- SHOG GI MGO RGYAN;correction
2118;WEIERSTRASS ELLIPTIC FUNCTION;correction
2448;MICR ON US SYMBOL;correction

Those are the name corrections.

It’s in a different file.

The control characters never had an assigned name.

So now they have an alternate name in the NameAliases.txt file. An alternate for nothing. Isn’t that dumb?

0007;BEL;abbreviation
0008;BS;abbreviation
0009;HT;abbreviation
0009;TAB;abbreviation
000A;LF;abbreviation
000A;NL;abbreviation
000A;EOL;abbreviation
000B;VT;abbreviation
000C;FF;abbreviation
000D;CR;abbreviation

Cerberus

What if you change it anyway?

tchrist

It cannot be done.

It’s like trying to write data to ROM.

The Unicode Standard has a set of “stability guarantees”.

And the exact spelling of an assigned name is one that can never change.

There are a bunch of different guarantees, like with certain character properties being closed sets.

For example, I believe that there is some whitespace property that is closed now.

It has to do with parsing stuff.

Unicode Character Encoding Stability Policy

Name Stability was established in Unicode v2.0.

As I said, it was a super-early one.

> Name Stability

Applicable Version: Unicode 2.0+

The Unicode Name property value for any non-reserved code point will not be changed. In particular, once a character is encoded, its name will not be changed.

Together with the limitations in name syntax, this policy allows implementations to create unique identifiers from character names. The character names are used to distinguish between characters and do not always express the full meaning of each character. They are designed to be used programmatically and, therefore, must be stable.

But get this....

> Formal Name Alias Stability

Applicable Version: Unicode 5.0+

Formal aliases, once assigned to a character, will not be changed or removed.

Formal aliases are defined in the file NameAliases.txt in the Unicode Character Database and listed in the character code charts.

So if you screw up a name, you can make an alias.

But that alias is also frozen.

In case you screwed it up, too. :(

> Name Uniqueness

Applicable Version: Unicode 2.0+

The names of characters, formal aliases, and named character sequences are unique within a shared namespace.

The names of characters, named character sequences, and formal aliases for characters share a single namespace in which each name uniquely identifies either a single character or a single named character sequence. The definition of uniqueness is not just a simple comparison of the characters—instead, the loose matching rules from UAX #44, Unicode Character Database are used.

That’s another important one.

There are a bunch of properties that are closed, too. There’s a table there.

Like Control characters.

Those are frozen. Never will there be new ones added or old ones removed.

Here’s the newest guarantee:

> 6.3.0+ Characters that have a Bidi_Paired_Bracket_Type property value of Open or Close also have the Bidi_Class property value Other_Neutral (ON) and the Bidi_Mirrored property value Yes.

Well, the newest character property guarantee.

Cerberus

Anything can be done!

tchrist

No, you would break existing code.

Because if somebody writes a program that says "Give me the code point for PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET", and compiles it, then you can’t remove that name from the lookup database.

See the problem now?

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