English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitΘδς

14:00

But I had never heard the word "conjugation" before French class.

Nor "declination" before German class.

Cerberus

Yeah, well, that isn't really a word you need.

But "ending" and "stem", those you need.

And "verb" and "passive".

KitΘδς

We did use that. Of course, I've forgotten everything but the very most basics, like noun and adjective.

Cerberus

I have to go for a bit. BRB!

KitΘδς

Still, it shocks me that kids aren't learning it these days.

Oh, yes. Lunchtime for me. TTFN.

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς good luck!

Kit leaves and @aedia enters. Coincidence?

aedia λ

14:03

I missed her again?

Grace Note

I think not!

aedia λ

We really have been here at the same time!

I swear.

Matt Ellen Д

@GraceNote have you ever seen them in the same room at the same time?

Grace Note

@MattEllenД Yes

Matt Ellen Д

oh

well, then nevermind

Grace Note

14:04

(Did I have z queued in there? What happened to my shift key?)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus When you study the "classics", what language are you reading? your modern language? a foreign (to you) language? Some older variant of your modern language?

Matt Ellen Д

@GraceNote sometimes magic just happens

aedia λ

@MattEllenД Kit taught me all kinds of new things.

Matt Ellen Д

@aediaλ oooo! do tell

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Latin and Greek.

Matt Ellen Д

14:06

hello @FallenAngelEyes!

FallenAngelEyes

@MattEllenД Hi! I'm in Germany!

Cerberus

Classics

Classics (sometimes encompassing Classical Studies or Classical Civilization) is the branch of the Humanities comprising the languages, literature, philosophy, history, art, archaeology and other culture of the ancient Mediterranean world (Bronze Age ca. BC 3000 – Late Antiquity ca. AD 300–600); especially Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome during Classical Antiquity (ca. BC 600 – AD 600). Initially, study of the Classics (the period's literature) was the principal study in the humanities. History of the Western Classics The word “classics” derives from the Latin adjective classicus: “be...

So you may interpret the word a bit less narrowly, but it is usually just Latin and Greek.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So, those are not your native languages, right? presumably you need to learn the grammar as well when you study it. When we studied English literature we almost never referred to grammar because we innately understood the grammar and it was almost never an issue, except where the grammar had changed.

@Cerberus yeah, that's what I thought. I'd think that most people, in order to read Latin, would have to study Latin grammar, because they are not native speakers. But the people of Rome in those days would not have had to take grammar lessons in order to understand their contemporary literature.

Matt Ellen Д

@FallenAngelEyes you're on Holiday?

Grace Note

@MattEllenД She's attending Gamescom

FallenAngelEyes

14:12

^What @Grace said

Matt Ellen Д

@GraceNote Oh yeah! I remember now! how's it going @Fallen?

FallenAngelEyes

General admission doesn't open til tomorrow, but we wanted to get here a day early so we could hit up opening tomorrow morning

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I was thinking of questions about a sentence like, "how shocking that you should have left him there!". 1. Is it a question? How can you tell? 2. Why "should"? Why "have"? — I couldn't answer those questions without resorting to grammar and analysis. I don't see how you could study literature without it.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I wasn't thinking of learning how to write yourself, but rather analyzing what others have written.

Matt Ellen Д

@FallenAngelEyes good thinking

Cerberus

3. What other things are there about this sentence that are unusual? Is there a main verb?

Matt Ellen Д

14:15

@Cerberus because most studying of English literature (in UK schools) doesn't go down to such minutia.

Cerberus

Well...

aedia λ

Sorry, for a moment I thought I might have to promptly produce some of that stuff they pay me for.

Cerberus

Then how can high school prepare you for university if you don't study literature that way? No offence...

Matt Ellen Д

:D

close shave, eh? @aedia

Cerberus

In Holland, it depends on your school type: 3/4 of the people go to schools that do not prepare for univerity, so they probably don't need this stuff.

aedia λ

14:17

Mmhmm. Now it turns out I needn't have a new idea all day. Phew.

Matt Ellen Д

@Cerberus :D I did a BSc so I don't know. But what the study of literature generally entails is reviewing the style. What kind of literary techniques are used. This doesn't require explicit understanding of what a verb is

Cerberus

Well, I think it does.

Matt Ellen Д

@Cerberus that's why our education systems differ

KitΘδς

But writing an exposition of a French poem in French requires a really good grasp of French and English grammar, which is why my essays in Poesie Francais always blew chunks.

Cerberus

Certain figures of speech are extraordinarily complicated when you think about them, like metonomy. You need to analyse grammar for that.

Matt Ellen Д

14:21

@Cerberus but at the secondary school level most of the stuff we learn doesn't

Cerberus

@KitΘδς Yeah we only had really good grammar for Dutch, Greek, and Latin. That is why my German, French, and English education sort of sucked. Though German was better than the others.

Matt Ellen Д

or maybe it does now. I've not been to school in a long time

Cerberus

Good for you! Hehe.

aedia λ

@Cerberus This, AP is the last English coursework we have in a lot of schools if you're preparing for college, and it doesn't require any grammar analysis.

KitΘδς

@Cerberus I wouldn't have thought your English education was poor. Your English skill is exceptionally high.

Cerberus

14:24

@aediaλ You know what's funny? It doesn't say what AP stands for, neither on the title page nor in the introduction.

KitΘδς

AP Advanced Placement, College-level courses for high school.

I was just looking to see if I needed to explain it.

aedia λ

@Cerberus Advanced Placement is what it used to stand for.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Without further context, sometimes these questions can be hard to answer based on grammar alone. But 1. It has an exclamation mark, so, it's not a question. 2. in my english literature classes we would not have analyzed that. Or maybe we would have discussed "should have" but it doesn't need to go into a full explanation of auxiliary verbs, a simple explanation about what is meant would have sufficed.

@Cerberus 3. Here you are still discussing grammar, but we would have been discussing why leaving him there was shocking.

aedia λ

It totally doesn't even say on their webpage... it uses AP with the (R) trademark symbol!

KitΘδς

Most AP final exams will gain you college credit and waive pre-requisites, depending on your score.

Cerberus

14:25

@KitΘδς Nah I understood that, and it is mentioned under "College Board". It was just some random odd thing that struck me.

KitΘδς

disappointed face

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If we were studying grammar we would have used a sentence like that as an example, but grammar instruction was the exception, not the norm.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, see, but that's what I find strange. How is it possible that you wouldn't analyse literature that way? I mean, not all the time, and it is just one of the many things you can do with literature. But it should be part of the deal.

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 So did you ever diagram a sentence?

Cerberus

"Studying" literature is not just reading it and understanding what the author means.

It is also form.

KitΘδς

14:28

Oh the beauty in the form and structure of language!

Cerberus

Exactly!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς Yeah, when doing things like "subject + predicate". But I'm sure the analysis was simplistic.

KitΘδς

@Cer You really must study Chinese.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

For example, I don't recall ever learning what an object was. (as in verb-object)

Cerberus

They wanted to kick out the hardcore part from Greek and Latin exams in high school here too, because children find those "difficult". But they have been saved, for now.

@KitΘδς It might be fun! But there's so many languages...

KitΘδς

14:30

Makes me want to home-school.

aedia λ

@Cerberus I barely remember AP English from those years ago; I think it was my first class of the morning senior year. I remember lots of memorizing and learning definitions the way the test designers wanted them to be learned, and sometimes arguing over it with my teacher.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No object, really?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus There's so much to study in any given work of literature. Discussing the grammar is only one aspect and I'd argue not most important one.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Yuck, yeah, learning for the test is always a problem.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, I don't claim perfect recall. But so much of what I know from grammar I had to learn or re-learn later on.

Cerberus

14:31

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I think it is essential, if only as a basis.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 "Had to learn": so later you felt it might be useful?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus so you're arguing that the medium is as important as the message?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes!

Absolutely!

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I'd argue that.

aedia λ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I never diagrammed a sentence. In sixth grade or so I remember circling parts of speech. We missed a lot of these classical things in my age group, so I didn't learn what an object was either.

Cerberus

Literature is about the balance between form and meaning.

If one is lacking, it is incomplete.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:32

@Cerberus Well, it is useful, but then, I am not a typical person when it comes to language. If I were going back to university I'd probably study linguistics.

instead of computer engineering.

Cerberus

Cool.

KitΘδς

It's not even balance; it's form as an expression of meaning. It's like saying there's a balance between paint and art.

Cerberus

@KitΘδς Right!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς Wow. I'd say that the message is foremost. There might be a subtext in the medium, but if you can't even understand the main text, forget about it.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You need both.

It isn't either-or.

KitΘδς

14:34

Nah. Think about it. How would you appreciate Starry Night if it were painted in watercolors?

Cerberus

Is that Van Gogh?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Really? So if I can't draw, and instead use photography to express an idea, that somehow matters? It isn't a coincidence that that's where my skills lie?

KitΘδς

@Cerberus Yes. Brilliant man. Genius. I would've had sexual relations with him as well, if he hadn't've offed himself.

aedia λ

@KitΘδς I got the book Artful Sentences: Syntax as Style for xmas. It makes me so happy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς That hasn't stopped you with other dead-before-you-were-born people!

Cerberus

14:35

KitΘδς

That's the one.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Look, think about Hemingway. He used intensely basic grammatical constructions to express a wealth of implied emotionality in his characters and situations.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I'm not sure the metaphor can be carried over to other forms of art. Form is very important in literature, that's all I know. But you could argue that photography uses different means to "form" its content: lighting, angle, etc. etc. I don't know enough about it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς I admit to knowing fairly little about art. But I submit that someone could make a similar painting in watercolour that would be just as moving. Just like someone can write poetry in German OR in Chinese. There are tricks when using a particular tool, it's true, and the use of those tricks can be interesting to study. But I don't think it's an important distinction.

Cerberus

Besides, the separation between form and content isn't absolute!

One flows over into the other.

KitΘδς

Compare that to Eco, who uses intricate grammar to construct intriguing plots.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:38

@Cerberus I'm not saying that grammar can't be used as an effective tool in writing. Obviously, there are things like passive-voice vs active voice.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Oh cool! That looks very interesting.

aedia λ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 When I write short, plain, text for user interfaces, or help text, it is the message that I'm trying to make foremost; but the style, the medium, the way it's expressed: that is what lets people get the message. A different way of saying it just doesn't work. More text doesn't work. Flowerier prose doesn't work. Even if we can agree they should all have the same message, they don't.

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Just as moving, perhaps, but this subject would not be this moving in any other medium.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But each language, or medium, makes the poem completely different. That's why most translations are awful compared to the original.

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς but you don't have to necessarily explicitly know about grammar to be able to do that, you can do that by simply knowing what feels good to write.

you can learn that simply through exposure

KitΘδς

14:41

@MattEllenД You can be an artist without understanding your media of choice, I agree.

Cerberus

@MattEllenД That is true; but you need to able to use its form the right way. And if you want to analyse it, you need to know stuff about this form.

KitΘδς

@Cerberus And I agree with that too.

Cerberus

An artist doesn't need to know why he's doing what he's doing; but an art historian does.

KitΘδς

You will poorly improve your skill if you don't understand it.

Matt Ellen Д

@Cerberus and a secondary school child doesn't (I'd argue)

aedia λ

14:42

And it's more fun to understand conventions, so you know what you're doing when you break them.

Cerberus

The sunset doesn't need to know why it's pretty. That metaphor doesn't really hold, but it is nice, no?

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД pish posh If they are capable of calculus, they are capable of grammar.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If Van Gogh had been sitting somewhere with only a set of watercolours and he decided to paint starry night, I'm sure he would have pulled it off. It would have looked different. But I don't think there are ideas that simply can't be expressed in watercolour but can in oils, or whatever.

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς Aye, but you'd need to find a teacher to teach them!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

(barring 3D use of thick paints, etc)

Cerberus

14:43

@MattEllenД If you want to prepare a child for the serious study of literature at university, then high school would be a good place to start.

Matt Ellen Д

I don't know what my English teachers knew of linguistics

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Watercolors express beauty, oils express passion.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I think you are making an artificial distinction between form and content. Form shapes content: without form, there is no content.

Matt Ellen Д

@Cerberus I don't think you can do that, given that a lot of people don't go on to university and you have to cater to the lowest common denominator, else they won't learn nuthin

KitΘδς

That too.

I'm being poetical.

I'm avoiding fixing data validation.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:44

brb

Cerberus

So if you change from oil paint to water colours, you change the part of the essence of the painting. There is more than just the paint, of course; but there's also more than just the objects that the painting tries to depict.

@MattEllenД I suppose that's what makes your school system different, then.

Matt Ellen Д

@Cerberus yeah, our kids are just stupider ;)

Cerberus

Kids who don't go to university probably don't analyze literature here either.

@MattEllenД They just start to specialize later, perhaps?

Matt Ellen Д

@Cerberus probably. I was just being flippant

Cerberus

But I wonder: isn't it boring for intelligent children to have to do the same things as the others, at the same speed?

KitΘδς

14:46

All children should learn all things that Kit deems are important.

@Cerberus Yes. Incredibly.

Cerberus

@MattEllenД I know, hehe.

Matt Ellen Д

@Cerberus yes it is

Cerberus

@KitΘδς As long as those are the right things, I agree!

KitΘδς

But that's why they make gifted & talented classes.

Cerberus

@KitΘδς But if you're still in the regular class most of the day...

I hated elementary school, at least I found it profoundly boring.

We had to repeat the same stupid things time and again.

I just never did anything.

I hated it so much.

KitΘδς

14:48

I remember getting sent to the back of the room in kindergarten. I thought I was being punished, but it was just because I could already read.

3

Matt Ellen Д

:D

aedia λ

@KitΘδς Mine were canceled after a few years. We didn't have funding or something and they claimed we could be educated fine with the normal kids and extracurriculars would suffice.

Cerberus

@KitΘδς Haha, in kindegraten, really?

KitΘδς

They were working on letter recognition and I kept interrupting.

Because I knew the answers and was too young to realize that the other kids didn't.

Cerberus

@KitΘδς Haha now I have an incredibly cute picture of little Kitty being smart to the teacher in my mind.

Then where did you learn to read?

aedia λ

14:50

I remember in first or second grade those few of us who could already read everything provided got to go read to the younger kids because we didn't have anything else to do.

KitΘδς

@Cerberus At home. We read books all the time and I have two older brothers.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Aww that sucks. But your parents gave you some interesting things to read, I hope?

KitΘδς

My oldest son is on the verge of reading now and he's three and a half.

aedia λ

In first grade I remember being bored to death of some poem they made us read line by line in a circle and I had already read the whole thing several times.

Cerberus

@KitΘδς Ah, older brothers. That must have helped.

@aediaλ Sounds familiar!

KitΘδς

14:51

@Cerberus Well, probably. I have always liked reading more than they did.

Cerberus

OK that too, then.

KitΘδς

And my mom got a job as school librarian when I was in second grade, so it kind of snowballed after that.

Cerberus

They say that separating children at an early age based on intelligence works against egalitarianism; but the alternative drags the smart kids down. There is no win–win situation, I think.

Matt Ellen Д

kill all the smart kids

that way they don't suiffer

KitΘδς

Egalitarianism is so bogus. Smart people should be allowed to run the world.

Cerberus

14:52

Hehe.

Put them to sleep?

Matt Ellen Д

and the dumb kids don't feel bad

Cerberus

@KitΘδς They already sort of do.

Matt Ellen Д

yeah, depends on how you define smart

Cerberus

@MattEllenД Would you propose chemicals, or the electric chair?

KitΘδς

No, they don't. They spend their time in EL&U chat and playing War Metal Tyrant.

Matt Ellen Д

14:53

@Cerberus just take them out back and shoot them

KitΘδς

And bitching about stupid people.

Cerberus

Ugh.

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД Quick and painless. Good thinking.

Cerberus

You put the finger on the sore spot.

Matt Ellen Д

or behead them

@Cerberus WMT?

@KitΘδς It's how I'd like it

Cerberus

14:54

@MattEllenД Ah, I see. You have interesting views on a humane society!

@MattEllenД Well I'm actually a bit bored with that...

Matt Ellen Д

@Cerberus I'm not so much humane as practical. ;-)

Cerberus

Just like Stalin, huh?

KitΘδς

Funny, this conversation has elicited a surprising amount of anxiety for me. Do you mind if we change topics?

Matt Ellen Д

That don't call me Stalin for nothing! Oh, wait, they don't call me Stalin at all.

Cerberus

Not at all.

Matt Ellen Д

14:56

@KitΘδς I like kittens. they are cute and fluffy

Cerberus

@MattEllenД Yeah you didn't resemble him when I first met you.

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД Yes. Kittens are fluffy. And cute.

aedia λ

I like kittens. And goldfish. I had a goldfish.

KitΘδς

So are baby ducks.

Cerberus

I want kittens.

Matt Ellen Д

14:57

awwww, especially when they're following their mum

KitΘδς

My friend had a samurai fighting fish.

aedia λ

Is that like a betta fish?

KitΘδς

@Cerberus You should always have cats in pairs.

aedia λ

@Cerberus You can only produce puppies, though! :)

KitΘδς

@aediaλ I think so. Looks like a red or blue goldfish? Puffs up its fins when threatened?

Cerberus

14:58

@KitΘδς I know! We've always taken two when we did.

KitΘδς

Sweet.

aedia λ

Siamese fighting fish

The Siamese fighting fish (Betta splendens, ), also known as the betta (particularly in the US), is a popular species of freshwater aquarium fish. The name of the genus is derived from ikan bettah, taken from a local dialect of Malay. The wild ancestors of this fish are native to the rice paddies of Thailand, Malaysia and Cambodia and are called pla-kad in Thai or trey krem in Khmer. Description B. splendens usually grow to an overall length of about 5 cm. Although known for their brilliant colors and large, flowing fins, the natural coloration of B. splendens is a dull green and br...

Cerberus

@aediaλ I'll adopt!

aedia λ

@Kit like these guys?

Cerberus

Wow the orange one looks cool.

KitΘδς

14:59

@aediaλ Funny how I morphed Siamese to samurai.

@aediaλ Yes.

aedia λ

I had some once, in my dorm room. A male and a female. And once I petsat a friend's cat that was illicitly in the dorm and had to keep the fish in the top of the loft. That was fun.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…