mmmm lunch

hi @Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, see, but what I think would be the most "just" model is if you paid exactly what you used: a flat rate per MB, including calls.

And how much do you pay?

@MattEllenД Morning!

@Cerberus Calls are separate from data - they aren't measured in bytes or MB

@Waggers Yes, but they shouldn't be separate!

Calls are just data to phone companies, aren't they?

Why not? They aren't comparable, it would be like adding apples to pears

@Cerberus I pay $45/month. Wind Mobile.

Why are they not comparable?

No, calls are not data

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ah OK. Well, wouldn't it be better if you paid nothing if you didn't use it, and just a flat rate/MB if you did?

@Waggers Then what are they?

But with Wind the "all you can eat" part is only in the coverage area, which is small, because they're a recent startup in the cell market here. Luckily, that suits me just fine, and it's like half the cost (over 3 years) of a comparable plan from a bigger carrier.

@Cerberus Yes, if the rate was fair, which it never is.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Exactly.

Calls involve the use of a phone line, and networking to the telephone exchange etc. Data requires a connection to an internet server - different kettle of fish

We had a big brouhaha in Canada about metered Internet (from trad. ISPs), because the prices are already so high, and everyone is convinced that (despite what the ISPs say) metering will actually RAISE prices.

If they were the same you'd be able to access the internet from a landline (without the use of a modem)

@Waggers Phone line? We're talking mobile phones here: do they use phone lines?

@Waggers Or, on cell networks, they require different cellular protocols AND different networking protocols

@Cerberus Yes. That's why they have a phone number. And you can call a landline from a mobile phone and vice versa, can't you?

@Cerberus Once the call reaches the base station it goes onto the traditional phone network, which is a data network of a sort, but completely different than the Internet

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Then what are you paying for your home internet?

@MrShinyandNew Grrr Different FROM not different THAN!

:)

@Cerberus $60/month for up to 5Mbps, plus there's a download cap

@Waggers Hm, I never noticed that. I'll have to pay closer attention to my writing.

@Waggers Well, OK, but those calls are still data, aren't they? If the phone company uses different protocols (my home internet goes through my phone line), they are being horribly inefficient. Why can't they just treat all data the same way and convey them through the same means, calls or internet or text messages?

@Cer

@Cerberus Because you can't measure data in terms of call minutes, and you can't measure calls in terms of megabytes

@Cerberus Because of network evolution

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Wowsers that's expensive. I pay € 25 for 20 Mbps unlimited.

@Cerberus Yeah Canada sucks for internet and cell prices.

(Unless using voice-over-IP but let's not confuse this any more than it needs to be)

@Waggers Why not? You could, say, route all calls through some sort of Skype-like protocol?

@Waggers you can measure both in terms of power consumption. that would be a lot easier.

@Cerberus You could, but that's a very different protocol from the traditional phone system

The phone network is a huge installed system, it is precisely engineered to certain specifications and has lots and lots of features that are completely different from the Interent.

@Waggers Besides, if they use actual phone lines for calls, shouldn't those be cheaper than internet data, instead of the other way around by a factor 6? And, if not, why don't they use Skype-like thingies for calls?

@Cerberus Voip is still nowhere near as good as the traditional phone network for calls.

@Waggers Skype can call my home phone. So why can't a mobile operator do the same?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Is it? Then why does Skype work perfectly?

It's true that you could theoretically combine the two using some kind of conversion criteria, in the same way that volumes of gas are converted to kWh for billing (in the UK at least)

That, or just switch over to the internet/Skype protocol for everything?

@Waggers well, phone bandwidth is essentially fixed, because the packet size conforms to a certain compression protocol. So you could measure it in bytes and convert it to minutes for billing if needed.

Exactly.

Besides, it is poor quality.

@Cerberus You are talking about a huge, huge, change.

So it is a low-bandwidth stream.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Is it? But I can already use Skype on my phone?

Skype is not very reliable where I live.

It just doesn't work well. But no doubt that could be fixed.

@KitΘδς Not on your home computer?

@Cerberus Nope. Signal quality varies pretty dramatically.

I wouldn't want to rely on it.

Well, I mean, my regular mobile calls are just digital data too, aren't they, between my phone and the antenna?

@KitΘδς Hmm that's odd. The voice part I've never experienced problems with. The video part, yeah.

We still have quite a few analog lines out here in the country. Hell, some folks don't even have access to cable and have to use satellite instead.

My parents don't have television cable either.

@KitΘδς so you're also out in the country? so am i, but i get good internet service

and skype has always worked fine for me

But you're in the Midwest; they're much more modern there.

:)

At any rate, I have these facts: 1.) calling through regular land phone line is cheap. 2.) Calling over landline internet is cheap, like Skype. 3.) Using the internet on a mobile phone is cheap.

How come mobile calls are extremely expensive?

I don't buy it.

mobile calls in the US are not extremely expensive. when i lived in seattle i just had a cell phone and not a land line

but i know that in romania the system is very different, and i believe that it's the same throughout europe

Huh?

What's the difference?

Cell phone ≠ mobile phone?

(edited. what i originally wrote made no sense.)

Ah! Haha.

I have just a cell. No point in having a home phone just so telemarketers can reach me.

I don't have a home phone line either.

@KitΘδς Haha, yeah. I ignore my landline when it rings because no one I know knows the number.

@Cerberus The other crazy thing is that carriers charge for texts at all since texts are far lower priority and are only sent when the network is idle, so essentially cost nothing.

Oh, another set of facts: 1.) a mobile subscription with a very low limit is very cheap per minute, usually about 2 cents. 2.) Higher limits are usually about four times as expensive per minute. 3.) Going over the limit is even twice or thrice that rate.

@Cerberus When you say "Couldn't the cell companies just use voip for everything", you are essentially saying that their entire investment in the cell network and related voice technologies has to be discarded and replaced with a competing technology that doesn't (yet) provide as good a service. Oh, and you have to replace all the phones out there. And in the US you have to provide provisions for wire-tapping, as per the CALEA law.

@MattEllenД Exactly!

consider the difference in cost between sending an e'mail over 3G or a text over regular mobile.

Yeah, SMS pricing is the biggest scam EVER. But that's another story.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But what do you mean replace phones? Skype is already compatible with regular phones, that is, you can call and be called by regular phones on Skype?

No, I mean replace all the cell phones on the carrier's network, that don't have voip

@Cerberus By the way, Jasper quit.

and voip still needs to interface with the existing landline network the same way that cells do.

I just sent an email to him asking him to come back.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Besides, the landline phone, home internet, and mobile internet/calls all go through the same company. They all provide all services. And the landline internet + landline phone both go through the phone line.

or I'm trying to send an email. 3G isn't working so well!

@KitΘδς Oh, Jesus!

@Cerberus landline phone and landline internet go over the same wire, but it's a different NETWORK.

@KitΘδς i see lots of messages about this in the sidebar and i looked through the transcript, but i couldn't find the place where he actually said why

In case you want to email him.

is this something having to do with his crush on Lauren?

@JSBᾶngs I gather. And he had comments deleted.

@KitΘδς why were the comments deleted? and why did it upset him so much?

@JSBᾶngs Someone flagged some of the stuff he said about contacting Lauren. He said he was embarrassed.

@KitΘδς But why? It's weird.

I agree.

@KitΘδς He didn't seem embarrassed when we told him it was a bad idea, so why be embarrassed now? Odd.

@KitΘδς it makes sense that he was embarrased. i'm just surprised that he thought he needed to quit over it

I'd hazard a guess that he thought that Lauren did it, or found out about it.

@Cerberus Anyway, eventually these networks will all converge and there will only be "interent" underlying everything. But for now there is a HUGE installed phone network that still provides better voice quality and reliability, and it will take a long time for it to get switched off.

no one would even have remembered this in another week, seriously

@JSBᾶngs He's not exactly in a stable frame of mind.

@KitΘδς I thought Grace Note explained that they didn't even know if L. was aware of the messages?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, and unfortunately that solidified his resolve to pursue her, because of something Grace said about it, too.

@KitΘδς sigh

I thought you were pretty clear when you said "don't do it"

@MrShinyandNew Considering most domestic internet access actually uses the old network (again, maybe this is just the UK) you can't switch off the old phone network without hordes of people losing their access to the new one

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Okay, I will accept that they cannot easily convert one thing into another. But I still don't see how landline phones can be cheap, landline internet is cheap, mobile internet is cheap, and mobile calls are outrageous. And the fact that phone companies have huge profit margins.

@JSBᾶngs Exactly.

that's too bad. jasper will be missed

@Cerberus In Canada it's the total opposite: mobile internet is the most expensive data you can buy (ignoring SMS) and mobile voice is relatively cheap (comparable to landlines). Landline voice is cheapest, everyone always has flat-rate per month for local calls on landlines (unlike, I've heard, many European nations)

@KitΘδς Yeah it's weird. How can he be so embarrassed that he feels he must quit, and yet keep trying to contact this random girl?

@Cerberus well, in the UK landline calls are only cheap for the minority of users - which is home to home. Business to business and home to business is expensive.

@Cerberus I think it's partly down to infrastructure (it's more expensive to run a mobile network, with all the cell towers etc) and partly down to good old economics - there's more demand for mobile and the price reflects that

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ah, so how much do you pay for mobile internet a month, and what do you get? And how much for mobile calls?

@Cerberus Probably because he thinks that we think he's crazy for doing it.

Yes, and time of day comes into it too - calling at evenings or weekends is cheap (often free) while a daytime call can be extortionate

Again, down to supply and demand

@MattEllenД See? That looks extremely arbitrary. I don't believe for one second that business to business actually costs the phone company more.

@MattEllenД now that is weird. in RO mobile-to-mobile is cheap, and so is landline-to-landline, but landline-to-mobile or vice-versa is very expensive

@Cerberus my $45/month bill is unlimited voice + unlimited data. but it's a fairly unique plan in Canada, with some other limitations, and most comparable plans would cost 2x as much

@Cerberus indeed. It's just supply and demand, as Waggers says

@Waggers My theory is that there is no competition, because each company owns its own physical network, and new players are bullied. Hence the huge profits and endless commercials for cell phones.

Basically, world-wide, each country has their own conventions and practices about billing. In Canada, landlines are billed per month (local calls) and per minute (long-distance). I don't think it matters home/business but business phones cost more per month. It doesn't matter who you are calling. for LD the caller pays.

@KitΘδς But he already knew that when we told him, and it didn't bother him then?

@Cerberus Except that someone was bothered enough to flag the comments.

Which he didn't find out about until later.

@Waggers That would be reasonable. But, see that isn't the case here: we pay a flat rate. So most of those rates just seem totally random.

For cell phones you pay air time PLUS there is the local/LD distinction, and you pay air time whether you make or receive the call. and if you're not in your home area you pay LD to receive the call.

Data laws also come into it. Mobile phone signals are radio waves, and in the UK you need a licence to use a particular slice of the radio spectrum. Those licences cost money

@JSBᾶngs We have that too: land to mobile is outrageous.

@JSBᾶngs in terms of mobile to landline, that depends on the line you're calling - if it is a call centre then the price per minute is astronomical. Mobile to mobile is usually included in most call plans, as are mobile to non-national numbers.

@MattEllenД It's not! Whether I call from work to another company or from home to home, it costs the phone company the same, and yet they charge you double for one!

@Cerberus really? in Canada, when I dial a number from a phone, it makes no difference what kind of number I am calling. I pay for my own airtime (if I'm on a cell) and long distance fees (if the number is not in my area). that's it.

hence this website: say no to 0870

In my contract I get 100 minutes of talk time - to any non premium number (ie landlines and mobiles are included) per month for free

(I could get more but chose unlimited SMS messages instead0

@Cerberus yes, but people want to call businesses more than each other, so the demand is higher. That's what I meant

@KitΘδς Yeah I suppose that must be it. But Grace explained very well that it was just not something that should remain permanently visible, not that people were really offended.

@MattEllenД Sweet ginger chicken it must be annoying to make calls in the UK

@KitΘδς what do you mean, precisely, by "not... stable"?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 very.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Does that strike you as odd? Do you think they lose money on your subscription? If so, then how come we have small companies here that offter € 25 for unlimited data + calls? And can you see why I think they make huge profits on other plans than yours? Their entire plan / rate structure is just one big marketing scheme: it has little to do with what costs them how much, I think.

@MattEllenД I thought it was annoying when I'm in a different city, with my wife, and to call her we BOTH pay long distance.

@Cerberus Cell prices in Canada are widely known to be relatively overpriced. That's why I went with this smaller carrier, which offered a much cheaper package.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that's quite ridiculous. I'm glad we don't have that

You can never make a direct comparison between countries, though, because there are lots of governmental and geographical differences which affect costs.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That sounds extremely arbitrary as well, which is corroborated by the fact that we don't have that kind os payment structure. I pay € 30 a month for about 400 minutes, no matter where in my country I am. If I go over 400, I pay 8 cents extra per minute (but that is unique here: usually 25 cents over limit). Mobile data is 2 GB for € 15.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I mean he is in dire need of a good therapist to help him through his emotional crisis.

@MattEllenД The idea is simple, once you know of it: my call is LD because I'm calling my home city from a different one. Her call is LD because she's receiving a call while in a different city. But honestly, the phone system should try the local area first.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I prefer the system where the person calling carries the cost. The person answering shouldn't have to

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I suppose that is true; but the differences within my country alone, which is tiny, are huge. I am keeping this plan I have had since 2003 because I'd pay twice as much if I were to change plans now.

@Cerberus well, local vs long-distance is actually not that arbitrary. there are different phone networks for that too, and they are operated by different companies.

@KitΘδς He was seeing a therapist, wasn't he?

@Cerberus I don't think so. He has a friend who is a therapist.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I can see the logic in that; but how much more do you think a long-distance call costs them?

@KitΘδς Oh, was that it? He said things like "my therapist says ...".

@MattEllen I'm with you there. I changed mobile operator a little while ago and I hate the fact I now have to pay to retrieve my voicemail when I never used to.

@Cerberus Oh, well, I might be wrong then. Maybe his therapist advised him to stop hanging out in chat.

@Waggers that's a tad annoying

@KitΘδς Hah well I'm not sure either. And I don't think it was this therapist that told him...

@KitΘδς Are you going to send him an e-mail?

@Cerberus I don't know.

I understand.

Maybe I could write it and you could send it.

Hah, why?

I think he'd take it better from you.

Why do you think so? He didn't listen to me either.

@Cerberus LD costs are a different kettle of fish altogether. It's actually really complicated because not only do you have the normal "using a network" cost, but since it's a different company you have billing issues and peering issues and the overhead of two businesses working together

@Cerberus Big brother syndrome.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I'm sure that's true, but I still suspect that they make huge profits on that...

@KitΘδς Oh, does that really work? Does it also work that way with women, big sister and all?

@Cerberus I don't know. Women are funny creatures, and I'm not a typical woman.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't know about long distance specifically, but I do know that prices here looks terribly inconsistent. And why do you think those companies spend so much on advertisements and goodies and whatnot? Because they make huge profits. And they do, if you look at how big they are and how fast they've grown.

Honestly this sounds like the kind of thing where we would be great to have one of those cards signed by like everyone here.

@KitΘδς Aww.

Unfortunately email doesn't work that way.

@KitΘδς But I'd have to tell him it came from you anyway.

@GraceNote Exactly!

@Cerberus Also, I think it arises from the innate male need for competitiveness.

Too bad we didn't have private messaging.

@KitΘδς Huh? How?

@Cerberus The big brother thing, I mean. Respect and admiration for the strongest, smartest, most attractive, etc. along with a constant desire to challenge those very same men.