English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2014-06-24 (page 3 of 10)

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7:21 AM

morning

Hi

Matt Эллен

8:01 AM

Some drama occurred last night, eh?

8:31 AM

what was it?

Matt Эллен

questioning the existence of friendship in an online forum and expelling of personal demons

I decided to catch up on the transcript

not something I usually do

ok, write cliff notes as you go?

Matt Эллен

Well, Robusto and Kit are having a tiff and Medica was curious why people didn't back either side in the argument and then told us of horrible experiences from her life

I won't repeat those

I got an earful :-(

TMI

Matt Эллен

oh yes, and Skullpatrol tried to stir things up :Þ

8:36 AM

Lol :D

8:48 AM

:)

Matt Эллен

9:16 AM

hi @Sudhir

ask your question again :)

Hi

We recommend you to buy a new car.
We recommend to you to buy a new car

Which one is better to your ear?

Matt Эллен

the second one is correct

also "we recommend that you buy a new car"

oh wait!

they're both fine

I was reading it wrong

no no

Okay.

Matt Эллен

it's the to buy

so the first one should be "we recommend you buy a new car"

no to

But I studied former sentence in OED.

Matt Эллен

9:18 AM

sorry, I'm a bit scatterbrain right now

ok take your time

Matt Эллен

my instinct is to remove the to

to seems to work as a preposition there, as in "we recommend him to the Queen"

you don't need it to mark the infinitive

although it's more typical to talk of such things in the past tense, e.g. "we recommended him to the Queen"

in other news: flag this spam

so the definition we're working with is "Without personal object. To counsel or advise (to do something, that something be done, etc.)"

"I recommend to go to spain"

or even "To advise (a person) to do a thing."

> Mr. Sipperly..recommended him to place his affairs in my hands.

So I guess that your first sentence is fine, too, @Sudhir

I wouldn't say it like that, but it seems that people do

9:43 AM

Literally the same question:

2

Q: "Recommend you [do something]" or "Recommend you to [do something]"?

Will anyone make a clear comparison between "recommend + subject + to infinitive" and "recommend + to + subject + to + infinitive"? As an example: We recommend you to buy a new car. We recommend to you to buy a new car. Are both sentences correct? Which one am I most likely to hear in a nati...

Matt Эллен

good find!

@MattЭллен no, no... I wasn't asking people to take sides! That is a huge misunderstanding! It was an inquiry into the differing perceptions of friendships in a (?) typical chat room. Does a chat room reflect real life in any way? If it does, how? If not, are there rules that apply? If there are, what are they, and how do they differ from real life?

Matt Эллен

Oh! OK. sorry for misunderstanding

no, no, please. Don't apologize. It's me who apologized and needs to own the drama.

But the question is really intriguing. Is a chat room like a common living room, a play ground, or a sand box? If so, what does one do about the person saying, oh, look, shit can sing?

Matt Эллен

I treat people in chat rooms as people in meat space.

or at least I try

9:51 AM

My experience was to say that my first experiences lead me to want to fight the bully (if there is one, of course.)

Matt Эллен

I do get affected by the "you can't actually hit me from there" thing

yes, the cloak is very protective.

I was shocked into (inappropriate) action towards a child who was bullying my little son.

Matt Эллен

but for me I think it's a good thing, due to my generally anxious nature. I get to see how things would play out if I were less wallflowery

I later realized this was an instinct I picked up from my own experiences in childhood, when I could not fight back.

But that's the thing.

In real life, we're much more wall flowery than when protected by a cloak of invisibility or distance.

Matt Эллен

also I find chat easier to follow because text is less ephemeral than speech

9:57 AM

I am very curious as to why actions of a reasonable person, of reasonably empathetic capacity, would be and are suspended in an internet space like a chat room.

Matt Эллен

suspended?

who?

For example, IRL, I could not really rip out that poor little kid's larynx.

yes, suspended.

Matt Эллен

I don't know what that word means in that position

Common courtesies are extended: Mornin' hey! bbl, bye.

9:59 AM

@MattЭллен That is to say, as in a butcher shop?

(Butting in) Hmm. A suspiciously large number of my contributions on another site are being upvoted.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto meat is all around us. this is the meat dimension

Can I think of you as my meat shield?

but the more empathetic actions: hey, don't talk to me that way, stop that, that's really wrong. They don't seem to make it into chat room activity.

Matt Эллен

@medica I see what you mean now

10:01 AM

@AndrewLeach lucky you! such a burden is kinds nice.

@Rob I'm very happy to see you! :)

@JohanLarsson Thank you. Happy to see you too.

And I wonder, why?

@Matt You are happy right?

Matt Эллен

@Robusto depends on what's incoming.

10:02 AM

Am I missing some social cues that dictate this kind of retreat away from bad behavior?

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson I clap along, yes :D

@MattЭллен The usual. Zombie apocalypse, that sort of thing.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto oh, then sure! preserve the brain trust

@Robusto test it with us first imo

@JohanLarsson Me? Sure, why wouldn't I be?

10:03 AM

@medica As long as they don't get caught by the automatic vote-management script and removed.

@MattЭллен That was the mystery I was trying to unravel.

@AndrewLeach I enjoyed a couple of episodes of heavy upvoting. 3 days later, well... back to real life. ')

@AndrewLeach I found out that, yes, Virginia, the votes get reversed. :)

Matt Эллен

@medica I think that this chat room is difficult to navigate if one is trying to become part of the furniture. I.e. if you're looking for acceptance. If you just want a quick question answered then you're normally OK. I know there are times that that hasn't been true, but I think that's a small minority of them.

we've been here a while, so we have our understandings

@AndrewLeach what does that mean to a layman?

Hmm, the chat room. Ist das mit Frühstück?

@MattЭллен Yes, exactly. understandings. It's a mystery to me.

10:07 AM

Mahlzeit.

@MattЭллен Why is unkindness tolerated explicitly (or implicitly) in a chat room that would not be tolerated irl?

@medica if the system doesn't deem the votes suspicious enough to remove them.

Matt Эллен

that's why being a wallflower has its advantages. you sit back and watch and learn how people interact.

@MattЭллен the heart of the issue right there. That.

@medica There's a script which runs nightly and reverses abnormal voting patterns, particularly downvote vendettas, but it also cancels upvotes if there are too many from a single person (that is, it seeks out and destroys votes on a person rather than votes on content).

10:08 AM

@MattЭллен Have you ever heard of Kitty Genovese?

@AndrewLeach :-0

@AndrewLeach It removes up votes?!

Matt Эллен

@medica none. the problem with this chat room, which is something I often forget, is that the people chatting aren't the only people here. so Jez's comment about god (to take a concrete example) didn't bother me. But in hindsight, this is a place where people who believe come, so it's not actually an nice envorinment to come into.

@MattЭллен exactly.

Jez's quote was... something like... who gives a shit if those religious types are offented!

@medica Yes, because there might exist vote-rigging cartels (either a person voting for himself via a sockpuppet, or members of a team voting for each other).

Matt Эллен

@medica no

@MattЭллен no?

Matt Эллен

10:11 AM

I haven't heard of her

I look up about her. are you getting at the by-stander effect?

Oh, ok.

Yes, Kitty was attacked repeatedly while something like 35 - 45 people did nothing, though they could hear her screaming and in some cases, people watched from their windows.

@MattЭллен You haven't read The Watchmen?

Matt Эллен

@terdon I haven't

You should. It's a great book (and also mentions Kitty)

Chat seems to me, if I'm understanding it correctly (which I admit, it's possible I'm not), it seems like a lot of people (35-45) watching and listening from their windows while some unacceptable actions occur.

Matt Эллен

10:15 AM

@terdon Thanks for the recommendation :)

I'm not fond of hyperbole, so forgive the Kitty Genovese comparison per se.

@medica Very little can be truly "unacceptable" in an anonymous conversation between strangers that one can walk out of at will.

And yes, I did read the transcript.

If I said to you, you, terdon: F u (I dunno what more, but some bad stuff).

What happens is that some people are more easily offended or otherwise bothered than others.

To me, that's not acceptable anywhere!

10:17 AM

@medica I can live with it. It might affect my opinion of you but not my day.

Profanity and blasphemy are non issues for me for example. Overly religious references bother me a lot.

@terdon To me, perhaps because of my childhood, it does affect me.

To each their own.

True enough.

@medica I can understand that but as I said, different things take different people in different ways.

But see, that's kinda like saying,

@terdon "Hey, I hear someone getting abused. Oh, well, to each their own."

10:20 AM

@medica No. It's more like "I hear someone being spoken to". You hear someone being abused. The Kitty incident is much more clear cut.

@terdon Or even worse: Hey, I hear my friend being abused. Oh, well, to each their own."

If you hear someone being abused you should react to it. Just don't assume that what you consider abuse is considered so by others. It might not be.

@terdon It wasn't clear cut at all to those 35-45 people. Not at all.

@medica Please don't compare a brutal rape with verbal insults.

Their boundaries were influenced by brick walls

10:21 AM

That I do find offensive actually.

There is a whole world of difference here.

When I first read about Genovese I was shocked to my very core. That is a sign of a sick society and no mistake.

@terdon I refer to it because it's a classic case of bystanders knowing what was going on and doing nothing whatsoever to stop it, that's all. It is a well studied case.

It is, in fact, among the worst stories I can tell about humanity.

@terdon We are sickly.

Belittling it by comparing it to a heated conversation is, quite frankly, absurd.

@terdon But we behave with less indifference in real life that when our only connection to what's happening is a keyboard and a screen.

10:23 AM

There's also a difference between rape / childhood abuse (where the victim has no choice but to suffer it) and a heated exchange online which can be ended at the click of a button. (Oh; terdon used heated too)

^^

@AndrewLeach Clearly.

The two are not even in the same category. There is both a qualitative and a quantitative difference. They cannot be compared. It's apples and shotguns.

@AndrewLeach But the bystander effect is at work on the internet. That's all that I'm saying.

I just don't see how it applies to the conversations here in the past 24 hours or so which is where I think you are trying to apply it.

10:25 AM

I think different people's experiences mould them differently. I suffered in my childhood too, but I'm happy that adults on the internet can take control of what's happening to them.

@AndrewLeach Can they always?

They can try.

And they can always log off.

That's the point. They can remove themselves from the situation. There is a choice.

That's the main difference. Nobody is forced to stay here and take abuse even if such is actually being doled out. Which I have never seen here.

@terdon What if, to them, it's not just a room in some, i dunno, site; what if it's like their second home.

10:26 AM

@medica They can still leave. This is a shared home after all.

And actually, online chat being a second home is arguably its own -- different -- problem.

When someone acts badly, then, tough luck to the person that has to leave to avoid abuse (though certainly not physical)?

@medica That's just it. Who gets to decide what is defined as bad in this context?

@AndrewLeach It's a HUGE problem!

From what I've seen, you @medica, and I have very different threshold for bad behavior.

10:28 AM

@terdon Exactly. That. Either everyone in the room, someone in the room, or no one in the room.

Which is fine of course, but that means that things that I find fine might bother you.

@terdon That's probably true.

The thing is, it depends.

@terdon It comes from my childhood, my experiences parenting, my chosen profession of helping the ill...

There are some things that I find it absurd to be offended/bothered by (I am not referring to anything that has happened here or in any way referencing you). I refuse to modify my behavior because some small minded idiot might be offended by it.

Other things I may not find offensive but can understand why someone might so I will gladly avoid doing/saying them so as not to give offense.

10:30 AM

@terdon Ah, see? I don't think that would really fly in real life, would it?

@medica We all have our baggage.

@medica Of course.

@terdon of course it would fly or it wouldn't?

For example, in Greece, a lot of people find it offensive that the Muslim community want to build a mosque in Athens. My reply to this, and excuse my French, is fuck 'em.

Of course it would fly.

I see no reason to change the way I act to accommodate small minded bigots.

Granted, this is a particularly clear cut example, but I hope you get the idea.

The fact that somebody finds an action offensive is not, by definition, reason enough to avoid said action.

@terdon So, if your boss was Greek, and he expressed that opinion (that he didn't want a mosque in Athens), you'd say to your boss, Fuck you if you don't like it,?

Homosexuality is another good example. A lot of people find that offensive. As far as I'm concerned, it is they who have the problem and need to learn to deal with it.

10:34 AM

Hi @medica how are you pal :-)

@medica Not saying I'm an idiot :)

But in a casual conversation with someone I do not depend on, yes.

One example at a time is all I can process... sry

I would say that and not bother about giving offense.

Hell, whoever said that already offended me in the first place.

@terdon Right, because in real life, there are consequences to asinine behavior.

So, money would prevent you from telling your boss to fuck off, right?

But that's just it. My behavior in suggesting they fornicate off is not asinine as far as I'm concerned. Their bigotry is.

@medica No, a sense of self preservation I hope. I have been known to tell my boss (well, PhD advisor actually) off though.

10:36 AM

@terdon I'm talking about behavior and attitude.

I know, but my point is that it always depends on your own views and you cannot assume that they are shared by all (or any).

Anything can be offensive to someone or other.

@terdon right. because 1) you have to face him the next day, and 2) you know, you don't want to ruin your career, and 3) it would be uncomfortable.

@medica Depends on what he'd said. There are some opinions that, if held by my boss, would give me all the reason I'd need to find a new job.

@terdon So, there you have internal and external motives to contain yourself.

Right. When I was in grad school, one of my profs kept hitting on me.

Why should I contain myself? Why is the onus on me?

10:39 AM

@terdon because it's your job, your paycheck, and your career.

@terdon that's why.

Yes. OK. There are cases where other considerations come into play. An online chat room is not one of them. I don't depend on anyone here and neither does anyone else.

@medica I hope you're feeling better? I apologize for being so unsympathetic, that's the way I am. On the internet

We are, therefore, free to speak our minds as we see fit and reap the consequences, if any.

Point is that the fact that X finds what Y said "offensive" is not, by definition, evidence that X was out of line.

@terdon the onus to (no no no, skull, you were kind.) behave in a socially acceptable fashion is always on somebody.

@terdon That's a good point.

@medica But that's just it. I always behave in what I consider to be a socially acceptable fashion (or apologize if I don't). That does not mean that everyone around me shares that opinion and in fact they often don't.

10:42 AM

@terdon thinking...

Especially here where we have people from various societies, each of which has different norms, interacting.

That's at the heart of what I'm saying.

The classic example is the difference between US and most European countries. Americans tend to take offense at things that a European wouldn't blink at.

Lots of people don't behave on the internet as they would in real life.

I have seen people take offense at what I considered completely innocuous statements.

10:43 AM

I'm sure that's happened to everyone.

@medica Dunno. Yes, anonymity helps, but they're still the same person.

@medica Precisely. Offensive is very subjective.

@terdon that speaks to the heart of what I'm thinking... I don't see the realness coming through in an electronic setting.

There can be real friendships, don't get me wrong.

There can be real comraderie.

But when the i dunno, when the shit starts flying, it's easy to just step back.

Am I completely wrong?

@medica Of course not. I'm just not sure that's always a bad thing.

OK. we can agree on at least that.

Sometimes, stepping in to an argument only intensifies it. Especially if you take sides.

@medica Oh, we can agree on all sorts of things I should hope!

10:47 AM

when the shit starts flying online, it's easy to step back and let it hit someone else.

Actually, I would guess a lot of people would find it easier to step up and be assertive, precisely because of the aforementioned anonymity.

that's all I'm saying.

no, i don't believe you.

I'm sorry, but I don't.

Anonymity rarely breeds empathy.

In the specific conversation that I think serves as backdrop to this one, I would not have stepped in. Not in real life and not here. It did not seem in any way extreme to me or out of line or in need of my help.

@medica It often breeds courage though.

One can step away out of indifference or cowardice.

@terdon still tryin gto think straight

@medica Good luck with that, I've been trying for decades now :)

10:49 AM

:D

the deepest kind of courage is between strangers.

when there is no prior bond.

Often, yes.

No one to judge if you don't step up.

Yes, but the opposite also stands for anonymous online interactions. No one to judge if you do step up. No bully to hit you. Nobody knows who you are, you cna say what you like.

I don't buy your argument that online discussions make it harder to step up.

The deepest kind of cowardice is when there is a true bond (say mother/son) which does not result in the right behavior.

I disagree. By the same argument, the deepest cowardice is also that between strangers.

10:53 AM

@terdon It's the effect of being in a room when the shit is flying (even if they are just small pieces...

If the deepest courage is where you step in to help someone you don't know, then the deepest cowardice is when you don't.

@medica Yes. But since you're not actually in the room, it is far easier to get in the line of fire.

perhaps, but is it more cowardly to not

right!

no, wrong!

:)

lol

Whiplash

10:54 AM

yeah, I feel it...

if my son was drowning

and me and a stranger were watching,

who has the greater moral responsibility to risk their life to save hom?

Neither.

Both.

You have the greater moral responsibility for failure but no greater one to act as such.

Ideally it would be both, but in reality, I'm the one who has the greatest reason to give up my life for him.

@terdon exactly.

@terdon I don't think that necessarily follows. The greatest cowardice is not to step in to help someone who matters to you, to whom you owe some form of protection.

Else morality is pointless. Any ass would step in to save their own child. Doing so for a stranger is a far better act.

my failure is greater.

@terdon agreed 100%

10:57 AM

@Robusto That was based on the previous premise. If we accept that the deepest courage is helping a stranger, the flip side is that the deepest cowardice is not to.

the failure is mine, the heroism is the stranger's

@terdon I understand your point. I just don't happen to agree with it.

@Robusto Fair enough :)

@Robusto am I still on ignore?

No.

10:58 AM

I actually saw something like that once. I must have been about 12 and swimming with the son of a friend of my parents'. He was about 6 or so and fell into the water face down. The mother just stood there, screaming.

I stepped into the (two feet of water) where the kid had fallen and fished him out.

@terdon oh my gosh

The mother was not a coward, she just freaked out.

@terdon yes, clearly, but most mothers (and I know I'm one of them) would take a bullet for their kid.

And I was not brave, I was just more clear headed, probably precisely because he wasn't my son. I didn't even like the little shit at the time (he was cuter than I and got all the adult attention :)

@terdon :D

11:00 AM

@medica So would she. She'd lost a kid to cancer 10 years before and I guess that just affected everything down the line. She freaked out. There was no danger, this was literally two feet of water.

@terdon well, if you didn't perceive danger to yourself, it wasn't too big an act of heroism, though(although it was mighty nice of you to save a little boy).

@terdon I can buy that.

@medica There was no danger involved, no. No heroism either. Hell of a lot of altruism though. I really disliked that kid. I'd actually promised myself that I'd punch him when he turned 18 and was big enough to defend himself :)

All I am saying, is that when little electronic (lol!!!)

I don't type and laugh well

I did too! Though by that time he was a great kid so there was no force to the punch, just symbolic. I had promised after all.

And a good thing too, the little bugger is twice my size these days :)

when little electronic turds start flying, it's easier to duck than to absorb the crap for an internet aquaintence.

11:03 AM

@medica That's the one I'm not sure about. Since the turds will only stick to your avatar and not you, for many people it is actually easier to step up.

For others it is easier to step away, yes, but both are true.

@terdon there's the rub...

little electronic turds, they have real, actual power.

even though they are only little electronic turds, and you always have the option to click the tab and leave

or stand by and stare :-0

they actually hurt.

sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me

@medica They can. If you let them, yes. But still, less so than being looked in the eye and called an ugly name.

right. they can. and they do.

and because of who I am, because I was abused

because I know what it felt like for me

I don't tolerate people throwing turds at each other very well.

especially if the thrower of the turds is in the wrong.

because of who I am

I step in front of the turd.

especially if it's someone I care about

but even if it's not.

short story:

Which is all laudable. The thing is that some of what you consider turds, I consider flowers.

Or not turds in any case.

Matt Эллен

and sometimes stepping in makes a situation worse, not better

11:10 AM

I was waiting for an appointment in a psychiatric facility, my husband and I

and because I work in the ER, I know the law

some cop is interviewing a kid

maybe 12 years old

in front of everybody in the waiting room

nobody was

...

everyone averted their eyes

to this intensely personal psychiatric interview the cop was doing in front of everyone.

I couldn't take it.

@medica And you shouldn't. But, again, like the Genovese comparison, you are comparing apples to shotguns.

I walked up to the cop and said, you are breaking the law, and if you don't stop it right now, I will file a complaint against you for violation of this child's HIPPA rights.

and he said to me

Good for you!

"Who the fuck are you"

Yeah, sounds like a normal cop.

11:14 AM

So did you report him?

and I answered, I am doctor so-and-so, and again, I am telling you that your in violation of the HIPPA act.

he stopped

everybody was watching

to see what would happen

and the cop led the boy to the secretary's desk and asked if there was a private room.

And our doctor saw this, the tail end of it.

and he said, I've never seen anybody do that before.

well, I didn't do it for him

I did it foir the kid.

I did it for me.

And had I been there, I very much hope I would have at least come up and shaken your hand if I'd not reacted earlier. I just don't see how this blatant case of abuse is in any way relevant to the kind of thing that goes on here.

because in that moment, I was the kid, being mistreated.

It does happen here.

You are using a general feeling of needing to defend people to apply to what I consider minor tiffs. You are extrapolating from 0 to infinity.

not nearly as nlatantly, but it does.

11:18 AM

That's where we disagree. Not on the basic principle of defending the put upon.

that's where we differ.

you're right.

when I see turds fly, I try to stop them, because that's who I am.

Exactly. I've often seen you take offense/find things offensive, that I don't. You seem to be particularly sensitive basically. Which is, presumably, down to our personal histories but the fact remains that you appear (to me) as over sensitive.

That is probably true!

I probably am oversensitive.

So you will react and try to stop what you perceive as turds and that often results in simply escalating the situation until what I also perceive as turds start flying.

Fair, fair enough.

11:20 AM

@medica It's all a matter of perception. You are to me, and I'm probably callous to you. That's how it goes.

fair enough.

:) hug?

and who cares for the wounded?

aww, that's sweet.

@medica You do, it's your job!

right.

I probably chose that job because of who I am

(well, that and research grants were a bitch for women)

although, there again, I was doing cancer research

cancer.

the wounded.

I wanted to help.

anyway, thanks for everything.

11:23 AM

@medica Hah! I was collaborating with a group of 5 women working on prostate cancer. I was the only man at the meetings. The sexism did sure fly. :)

lol!

@medica The pleasure's all mine.

thanks again.

You're very welcome.

I appreciate it, very much.

11:24 AM

Any time.

I hope! :-)

bonne chance

je m'en vais.

(I don't write French, I spoke it when I was a little girl, before I learned to write

so I do it phonetically.

au revoir, j'espere.

@medica I do too, my French spelling is atrocious, despite speaking it daily.

Which is why I fall back on hacks like "A +" (a plus => a plus tard)

@Matt I ran a performance test that is perhaps interesting:
Angle implemented as Class and struct. Then ran:

for (int i = 0; i < 1000000; i++)
{
    sum += Angle.FromRadians(1);
}

doubles took: 3 ms
Class took: 1880 ms
struct took: 28 ms

#somewhat interesting :)

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