English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:26 AM

Just got back from a 25-mile bike ride. And I feel great.

Except for some complaints from my ulnar nerve where I was grasping the handlebars. I need to get better gloves.

@tchrist What mortals these fools be!

@tchrist So now I know what a Unix box looks like.

12:41 AM

@Arrowfar You posted a link, then the question "Can I ask something from here?". I implicitly answer that by asking you back for what your question is. So what is your question about that page of CGEL?

1:27 AM

Hello.

@tchrist So I was talking to my Brazilian friend just now.

@Robusto Well done!

That is like 3 hours?

Rajkumar R

2:02 AM

I have a rebarbative question..
But i dont have any other way to understand the nuances..

all of these words mean puke, but I dont understand the nuances of them..

Barf, Spew, chuck, Upchuck, disgorge, regorge, retch, regurgitate.

Can someone help me to understand please?

user116848

2:15 AM

@medica ?

@Arrowfar hi!

@Arrowfar what was your question?

user116848

@medica Yes Hi :) Someone said today here in these chat that I am blunt when asking questions. You think that? You noticed that recently?

I haven't seen any of your questions that were inappropriate.

user116848

F.E mentioned here chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/7227/english-language-learners

let me look...

user116848

2:18 AM

@medica At the very end of our chat? You see?

Yes, I do. I think it's fair to say there's a cultural difference - this is a common thing when someone from one culture meets one fro another.

user116848

Yeah exactly :p

user116848

But I am direct most of the time. But not in a rude sense.

For example, the British are more polite than Americans, so they tend to see us as brash.

Or simply as direct.

user116848

2:23 AM

Yeah and Brazilians are seen as the most polite.

yes, but some cultures don't prize directness. To me, it's fine up to a point (but different societies define that 'point' differently. :-)

user116848

And French as the ultimate direct (and rude)

user116848

:)

Nahh the French are not direct.

The Dutch are seen as direct.

user116848

But they are considered as rude though

2:25 AM

Just pay attention if you get too many 'corrections'. There may be a boundry you're not understanding.

user116848

I see :p

I'm starting a movie now! ttyl. :)

I don't know, I don't consider the French rude. Maybe a bit too proud.

user116848

'Proud' Yeah:)

@Arrowfar I think the only thing F.E. wanted to say is that you shouldn't use an imperative when you make a request.

There was nothing else wrong with your questions.

user116848

2:27 AM

@Cerberus But native people use imperative too. I have noticed.

So not "give me examples", but "could you give me examples?".

@Arrowfar But in requests?

user116848

You are right :)

As in, when you ask someone to do you a favour?

user116848

"Would/Could you blah blah" Right:)

Imperatives can be polite, and perhaps they are even possible in requests...but I can't think of any examples.

@Arrowfar Yes, just "could you [verb]?".

F.E. was exaggerating: you don't need to add any more fluff.

user116848

2:30 AM

Well I use imperatives too But usually my facial expressions and voice is pleasant

Haha.

In polite requests?

user116848

Which is missing in chat :)

user116848

yes

In speech, I would never say "give me examples" if I wanted to be polite. It is possible in an informal context, to someone you know well.

user116848

I see

2:32 AM

I'm talking about a situation where the other person really has to spend some time or effort to comply with your request.

user116848

Yeah in that I agree. I should be more polite may be by adding a few more words right?

No, just don't use an imperative and you'll be fine.

user116848

:D

See, I used an imperative there. But I wasn't asking you for a favour.

user116848

Nod

2:34 AM

Extra words are not necessary.

user116848

But like I said to FE some people are like: "Leave the formalities"

What that was about was that you shouldn't ask "may I ask a question?". You should just ask the question.

user116848

So I guess we should take the middle path :D

It is up to other people whether or not they are in the mood to answer you.

The middle road is always good!

user116848

Exactly :p

2:36 AM

But think about it. What is the effect if you ask people "may I ask a question?"?

user116848

They'll think of me as a Annoying Orange :D

user116848

lol

@Arrowfar One of the effects is that people have to spend time typing, "sure ask your question", and they have to then wait for you to come up with your actual question. If, instead, you just started right away with "is it correct to say she told me she had been a lawyer?", then people can simply answer, "yes, that is correct". It saves time and energy if you skip that first introduction.

user116848

user116848

Me?

2:38 AM

Haha.

user116848

You are right though

2:57 AM

OK.

3:16 AM

So I have a notification that says I've been invited to a chat.

when I click it, it takes me to the transcript for this room.

Anyone know what that's about?

3:29 AM

Hmm no?

Sometimes we get strange notifications here.

I've never seen that one before.

Smaug mosaic, in lego

Ah, c'est past mal.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 it is possible to invite users to rooms, still strange since you are a reg

also morning

Morning.

Well, it's evening here.

almost midnight.

I'm getting sleepy.

4:16 AM

ponders whether bowdlerizing words cements the word's meaning to something naughty

Rajkumar R

5:15 AM

in what context should I use latent and dormant?

is latent indicate "being active but not visible" and

dormant indicate "Capable but currently inactive"?

5:32 AM

Do this: traceroute 216.81.59.173

mathnetnumerics.codeplex.com/discussions/549301

Is Spatial a better name than Geometry?

6:43 AM

In my opinion, yes.

Rajkumar R

7:12 AM

Indian women wear a dot over forehead called as Bindi in hindi.

Here is a reference : https://www.google.com/search?q=bindi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=eIGmU92sLcPJuAS6iICQBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1317&bih=609&dpr=1

is there any English term for this?

7:23 AM

@RajkumarR Bindi is defined in the Oxford dictionary too. So it's an acceptable term in English.

8:51 AM

Would you say "run for moderator" or "run for moderatorship"?

I guess it's relatable to "run for president" and "run for presidency".

And I think the last two are both correct.

So, maybe both are correct for the moderator one too?

9:03 AM

!!define moderatorship

@skullpatrol moderatorship The position or office of a moderator.

fahdijbeli

9:45 AM

morning

Hi

@Cerberus No. About an hour and a half. I didn't push it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I wouldn't expect it to take you the transcript. that's weird. I'd expect it to take you to the room you were invited to.

@hichris123 you seem to be unaware: flagging as spam automatically downvotes.

10:08 AM

@MattЭллен @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Presumably this is simply a notification of an @-mention. It might go to the transcript if that post has scrolled off the top of the live chat.

if the notification said "you are invited to" then I'd think it's an invite, not just a ping

I suspect the "that time has now scrolled off the top" still applies though. The system is pointing you to what was going on at the time of the invite.

I think.

perhaps

there's no way to test it easily

Q: How come born bilingual people are always more proficient?

-1

I've been living or should I say lingering in Florida for quite some time now and what I've come to find ,by pure chance, lies in the rather god-damned frickin' phenomenal part o' the proverbial town which is that most born English/Spanish bilinguals, who have never learnt English on purpose, can...

history

> I know there's a lot of studies on bilingualism I've done some of them myself with The Ministry of Education and Science of the Russian

> learning for over 40 years on end

??

that doesn't sound right

10:16 AM

It is a said state of affairs when people doing studies with ministries of education and science don't even know or care that the white space goes after commas, not before.

indeed

that's civil servants for you.

Hi guys :-)

The rest of the question strikes me as someone trying to show off his English.

Would you say "run for moderator" or "run for moderatorship"?

> scientific a-holes who squander their lives on a wild goose chase of trying to make the pipe-dream of ever being able to achieve native-speaker fluency come true and ,well, kind of come up with nada.

10:18 AM

It doesn't belong here. It's about language acquisition.

Yeah.

But it's not exactly Linguistics, either.

CogSci, perhaps.

lulz, KongScience.

I doubt they'll have it without some serious revision though. There's a lot of rant in it.

:D

@Alraxite I would say "moderator."

Both are theoretically possible, but only one is really ever used in practice.

10:19 AM

@AndrewLeach yeah. it's mostly just him being angry at his colleagues

@skullpatrol Thanks for the input!

I wouldn't use run at all. I'd stand for moderator.

I would run away for moderator.

But the moderator must be very scary, or stink.

:D

moderator vs moderatorship

10:21 AM

Yeah no I've enough Rick Astley for today.

@AndrewLeach So, are you supporting "run for moderatorship" or that run shouldn't be used with both moderator and moderatorship?

Like, what about "running for president" and "running for presidency"?

@RegDwigнt moderating your Astley intake on doctor's orders?

There, both are theoretically possible, and both are really ever used in practice.

I think you run for the position, not the state, so it's moderator and president.

Just not at the same time.

Presidator

10:23 AM

@MattЭллен no, on Apple's orders. A day.

But in BrE we don't run. We stand.

We do

with a stiff upper lip and all

I never.

@AndrewLeach Ah, okay. Thanks.

@RegDwigнt fruity

10:25 AM

Somehow fruity looks like an expanded version of ftfy.

I suspect a conspiracy.

on that note, time to go!

But I'll say both are correct. Moderator and president being used more.

Then go!

Sida is French for aids, so presidator is a really interesting word.

@Alraxite because you do say run for office.

7 mins ago, by RegDwigнt

Both are theoretically possible, but only one is really ever used in practice.

10:28 AM

Yes, yes. Okay.

Amaranthine car is theoretically possible as well. Yet I'm not seeing myself using it.

MG made cars in a colour they called Amaranth.

12:23 PM

@AndrewLeach And what color was that, exactly?

Amaranth (color)

Amaranth is a reddish-rose color that is a representation of the color of the flower of the amaranth plant. The color shown is the color of the red amaranth flower (the color normally considered amaranth), but there are other varieties of amaranth that have other colors of amaranth flowers; these colors are also shown below. Amaranth The color amaranth is displayed at right. This color is also called amaranth red to distinguish it from the varying colors of other varieties of the amaranth flower. The color amaranth is similar to printer's magenta (pigment magenta) (but redder). It is t...

Not sure if that's what got translated by MG. I do notice that the top hits for "MG amaranth" show a clearly purple car.

The Wikipedia article shows #E52B50 as the RGB color value.

C&P the following into your console to see the color value here.

$('#main').css('background-color','#E52B50')

...to write well in English, you need to "think" in English...

True of any language.

agreed

also true if math is thought of as a language

which it is by physicists

@Robusto Yes. Purple. Nothing like E52B50. Reloads page to avoid eyeburn

Feynman once wrote: math is to physics as masturbation is to sex.

12:46 PM

@skullpatrol It is a language. The language of science, and of the universe in general.

*language of science

not "the science" . . . d'oh!

Having pineapple issues again?

1:03 PM

I have coconut issues.

@AndrewLeach In AmE, we fight for it.

Americans love to fight.

So run is completely wrong. At least we Brits can stand and fight :-)

Aww.

I have issues.

1:07 PM

!!Youtube you gotta fight for your right to party

►

@skullpatrol What are your issues? You like coconut toomuch?

@Cerberus nah, my skull is so hard sometimes I can't get anything into it.

Ahh haha.

Poor you.

Not very "plastic" I guess

1:09 PM

Goal!

:-O

who?

I'm watching a rerun. :D

Germany-Ghana.

Well, that was the highlight of that game.

The one goal.

I missed this match, but I heard that it was a tie.

Another Goal!

!!define vituperative

1:12 PM

@KitFox vituperative marked by harsh, spoken, or written abuse; abusive, often with ranting or railing

TIL

What's "TIL"?

@KitFox It's beyond my vocabulary obviously.

@skullpatrol Today I learned.

nice

1:16 PM

@DamkerngT. I know what happens!

Is anyone going to watch USA vs. Portugal match?

@skullpatrol TIL what "TIL" means

@Mitch Ahh... On my TV, it's 1-1.

Vituperare was in one of my first Latin lessons ever, about Grumio the cook who vituperated felix, the canis, for stealing his meat. Furcifer!, he said to Felix.

@DamkerngT. ha ha. No.

@Cerberus Oh you Latin!

1:17 PM

So looks like I missed more drama.

Is the election done yet?

Tragedy, comedy, history.

@KitFox You're not the only one who wishes it over.

Oh, I forgot farce.

What's with our sous-titre?

@Cerberus I thought Felix was a cat.

felis domesticus

1:19 PM

The subtitle got mentioned in the election chat. The transcript will only take a couple of hours to read.

I like the word vituperative. I like v-words anyway, and that one is a v-word that sounds like an operative.

Hmm, dictionary says felis catus. That sounds like dog-Latin.

@AndrewLeach Really? Good lord.

I'm pretty sure I had something else to do for relaxation today.

Actually "mentioned" is an understatement. It even spawned a Meta question.

Oh, Ghana took the lead! And they're dancing. :D

@KitFox You can watch football. USA's match is coming up soon 6:00 PM Eastern Time. :-)

1:22 PM

@AndrewLeach What?

Q: How can we improve the introduction of new chat users to EL&U chat "culture" and features?

6

When I recently first visited the English Language and Usage chat room, I arrived with many erroneous expectations. I presumed that the EL&U chat room would center on English language discussion, and that experienced users would be welcoming towards curious new users with similar interests. In re...

discussion user-interface chat new-users

@AndrewLeach I think hazing is the only way. If they don't survive, they weren't meant to be here.

@AndrewLeach "mentioned"! a tempest over the elephant missing from the mixed metaphor.

We could make a blog post and link to it, like the javascript room. Then the bot can greet visitors with the link.

@KitFox Can you do that?

1:26 PM

The discussion and what it showed about candidates was enlightening. @KitFox: Good idea.

Should we have the other bots vote on it?

@AndrewLeach Very enlightening. Showed how people deal with .. uh .. what's the word?

Aphasia?

Gets out dictionary...

Conflict. I knew it all along.

@AndrewLeach What idea? I had no idea.

Auto-link to blog post.

1:28 PM

@KitFox The bot idea.

er.. those two ideas at the same time.

as one idea.

together.

Oh. Like what they do in javascript chat, you mean.

Yes, that, and the bot idea.

I suppose people might actually reply to the bot. (That came up in the other chat discussion, too)

Well, let me name her Jarvis the Bot then.

!!hi

@KitFox Hey.

There.

1:32 PM

Hello @Jarvis

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: We chat about things here, also stuff, sometimes in English. [chat] [fun] [incomprehensible]

makes subtitle more descriptive

@KitFox There's really no need to worry about something so minor. Look at all the other chat rooms. They're just as obscure bylines. Are people so dense as to choose the main chat room and get all confused because of the subtitle?

@KitFox Why did you make The Incomprehensible Groom go away?

"Holy crap, I'm in Japan, why don't they speak English here?"

She left the tag "incomprehensible". Does that count?

@Mitch Did you mean "Holy carp, I'm in Japan . . ."?

1:38 PM

Also, fun.

@Robusto I haven't gotten to that part of the transcript yet. I'm still working through the Meta question.

@Robusto No I didn't mean that. I don't read English, so that makes no sense at all.

@Mitch A pity. "Holy carp" would have been funny, given the esteem in which the Japanese hold carp (or koi).

@KitFox I kinda wanted to see an argument there about not arguing. But the parts about "Stop being rude to me you idiot" were good enough.

@Robusto "Holy koi Batman, I really have to take a carp"

@Mitch Are you serious?

Good lord.

1:41 PM

Um .. AFK BBL (GTAC) _failed attempt at potty humor)

@KitFox I exaggerate.

Also "@Somebody Stop pinging me!" I'm pretty sure that's in there.

OK, finished the Meta question. I think I'll shower before I start in on the transcript.

you always read the whole transcript?

@Mitch It's 2-2!

@JohanLarsson No, just trying to keep up on the election news.

Or was this argument in this room?

Anyway, bbl.

1:58 PM

And me. I play an organ on Sundays. BBL

2:12 PM

@DamkerngT. Who's playing?

And what are they playing?

@Alraxite I was watching Germany vs. Ghana, rerun.

@DamkerngT. Oh. What are they playing?

Football. (Umm... You probably call it soccer.) It's 2014 FIFA World Cup.

There's a World Cup?!

Nah, I call it football too.

@Alraxite Yes!

2:15 PM

Damn.

Korea vs. Algeria 3:00 PM Eastern Time today.

Who are you supporting?

United States vs. Portugal 6:00 PM.

OK. Thanks for the schedule.

I don't know. I haven't picked one yet. :D

The picture should become clearer after this round.

@Alraxite No problem. :-)

2:18 PM

I also wait until after the match's over to place my bets.

Hahaha!

Sure, you pick the bets and I pick the odds?

3:09 PM

@MattЭллен Yes, but some people downvoted too (it got down to -10 when it should have only been -6).

Q: How can we make First Posts review actually useful?

3:31 PM

88

I'm about fed up with the First Posts review queue. Oh, it was a nice enough idea in theory: give folks a chance to welcome new users to the site, without the heavy constraints that folks complained about with Low Quality review. The problem is, the review system was designed around the idea ...

discussion review new-users

4:18 PM

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: We chat about things here, also stuff, sometimes in English. Please familiarize yourself with the use-mention distinction before chatting. [chat] [fun] [incomprehensible]

Aww. No hyperlinks?

No me apetece.

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: We chat about things here, also stuff, sometimes in English. [chat] [fun] [incomprehensible]

Well, I guess it’s better than Chatty-chatty Bang-bang.

Maybe.

@hichris123 Then I don't see what the problem is. It can't be because "it'll go off the front page" because it will do that after the 4th flag and before the 6th anyway. Not that I downvote spam, but it seems an odd thing to request not happen when it happens mechanically anyway.

@KitFox It's a shame that the room topic doesn't support basic formatting. I liked that link about the "use-mention distinction". Plus, the topic accurately and concisely describes the room, which was what I was ~~ranting about~~ advocating earlier in the election chat room and EL&U meta.

4:25 PM

@MattЭллен It goes off the front page faster, though, as it could go off the front page with 1 or 2 flags.

And then less people see it.

meh

doesn't really sound like an issue

Q: Why shouldn't I downvote spam that I've already flagged?

33

One of the responses to the question about the mass of football spam said: The proper course of action is to flag the post as spam. Three spam flags will remove it from the front page, six will delete it. Don't edit it, don't downvote it, don't use another flag. Flag as spam and move on. As...

discussion down-votes spam

sure. I've read meta posts. I don't think it's that big of a deal

... then how do you explain it taking an hour to nuke one question that was spam, and it had 4 extra downvotes?

on EL&U?

4:27 PM

Yeah.

english.stackexchange.com/questions/179026/…

Today I learned that mean dispersal time of micturient terrestrial animals weighing in at over 2 pounds is invariant despite the volume of said dispersant varying by four orders of magnitude.

But if I could point to 10 spams at -10 that got deleted in under half an hour, would that prove it wasn't a problem?

I can't be cause I can't find deleted questions

but one question isn't an epidemic

@MattЭллен Yes, you can.

can I? How?

@tchrist You learned something new? I assumed that you were omniscient.

4:29 PM

Using at least three wholly different mechanisms, no less.

@hichris123 anyway. I'll take it under advisement that it could be an issue.

1. Through the 10k-tools deletion page.
2. Through your own flag history.
3. Via Google.

oh! dang! good points

@TheodoreBroda I know everything about nothing, and vice versa.

^ Nothing above -10

@MattЭллен "could be" - no. It is an issue.

4:31 PM

@tchrist Does Google really index them that fast? Spam posts generally disappear quickly.

@TheodoreBroda Absolutely. I proved that several days ago.

@TheodoreBroda It's a non-issue. What is talked about in chat is what is talked about in chat. Read it and find out. The subtitle is mere entertainment and should be treated that way. You getting upset about it is like walking into the Japanese subway and complaining that it's all in Japanese.

@tchrist your cats peed on your carpet?

@Mitch It's not just that the subway signs are in Japanese, it's that they are in that unintelligible kanji/hiragana blend. Can't they have them in romaji or something?

@tchrist Nothing knows everything about you? thinks about the consequences

Nope, that's inscrutable.

@TheodoreBroda Exactly. Consistency please, but in an inconsistent way that supports my lack of understanding.

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/169997/inter-cast-love-marriage-love-back-specialist
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/169281/vashikaran-specialist-917597388038
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/168953/mobile-cone-crushing-plant-to-lower-the-yield-of-limestone-tends-to-make-our-pro
(a little over half an hour) http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/168063/black-magic-spam

I'm bored of looking through now, but these are the first few I found

so, yeah, it could be an issue, but doesn't seem to be

4:37 PM

> For land mammals over 1 kilogram, the duration of urination does not
vary with body mass, being dispersed around an average of 21 seconds
(standard deviation 13 seconds), despite a 4 order of magnitude (1000×)
difference in bladder volume. This is due to increased urethra length of large
animals, which amplifies gravitational force (hence flow rate), and increased
urethra width, which increases flow rate. For smaller mammals a different
phenomenon occurs, where urine is discharged as droplets, and urination in

On Micturition.

@tchrist So the lesson is... "if you have a big urethra you can pee as long as you want. Also you're a predator then." ?

@tchrist So humans (being larger mammals) pee for an average of twenty-one seconds? Interesting, I never really considered the duration of my urination.

> The odor of cheetah urine (unlike that of other large felids) cannot be easily detected by humans.

@tchrist What if the cheetah ingests asparagus?

Spam anyone? chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/8430/…

4:44 PM

Hence the cheetah’s regal place by the side of pharaohs and other potentates.

If you don’t like cat-pee, you need a cheetah.

It will take care of both problems.

@TheodoreBroda And which part of “obligate carnivore” is giving you trouble?

@tchrist What if the herbivores that it predates on are asparagus-fed?

I see you’ve found your doctoral thesis.

> Both male and female maned wolves use their urine to communicate, e.g. to mark their hunting paths, or the places where they have buried hunted prey.[124] The urine has a very distinctive smell, which some people liken to hops or cannabis. The responsible substance is very likely a pyrazine, which occurs in both plants.[125] (At the Rotterdam Zoo, this smell once set the police on a hunt for cannabis smokers.[125][126])

@tchrist I had no idea that wolves had piss that smells like weed.

Nor that weed smells like wolves’ piss?

fahdijbeli

hi

4:52 PM

@tchrist Police hunting for pot smokers in Rotterdam? I thought that the Netherlands was cannabis-friendly.