English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

simchona

9:04 PM

1 point away from rep cap

Jez

hey all

Bogdan Lataianu

hey dino

Jez

can someone explain to me what's going down in London? is there a reason for the riots?

up here in Northampton im not sure what the problem is. North London is as shitty as ever, innit?

Bogdan Lataianu

the police shot a fellow

Jez

yeah, i know that

but it hardly seems enough to spark these riots

it feels like there's some underlying reasons people aren't talking about. maybe political correctness.

is it mainly blacks?

muslims?

Bogdan Lataianu

9:06 PM

possible, it happened in France last years

the Arab uprisings started with one vendor's suicide

Matt Ellen Д

I think the riots are technically related to the police shooting, but in reality its just shits taking advantage of civil unrest.

The original protest was peaceful

Jez

but are you saying this is the only real opportunity we've had for civil unrest for 20 years?

we havent seen this for 20 years

surely there have been other chances.

Matt Ellen Д

no, I'm saying the people causing the violence are doing so for profit. The last civil unrest (civil servant strike) didn't have the right sort of crowd

civil servant strike was only a few months ago

there was violence then

but the shops were much better protected

Jez

hum

Matt Ellen Д

The people involved in the peaceful civil unrest at the beginning, just before the riots kicked off, were not about to start a fight and break into shops and steal things

also the civil servant strike was not held in a neighbour hood that has gun crime

Jez

9:14 PM

i'd be interested to know the racial percentages

are we talking about black/asian youths?

i would certainly expect the MSM to elide that fact, but i could be wrong

Matt Ellen Д

I don't know those stats

Jez

i was just watching this enormous fire on tv

biggest i've seen in a long time... looked a bit like the great fire of London

Matt Ellen Д

Yeah, the violence is senseless and out of control.

I guess there are a lot of people who are frustrated by their lot in life

frustration leads to anger and anger leads to the dark side

Cerberus

Paris has riots like that from time to time too.

Perhaps it is just what happens in big cities with semi-ghettos.

Jez

@MattEllen perhaps.

could multiculturalism be a factor?

Matt Ellen Д

9:26 PM

you can make stats prove anything. But in Birmingham there have been no riots and the same multiculturalism for years

yet now there are riots in Birmingham

this is opportunistic violence brought on by many factors, but I bet the main one is financial

the have-nots feeling the squeeze

Jez

"ChrisMasonBBC Chris Mason
Just accompanied a young woman to a bus stop; so frightened she couldnt get to work #londonriots"

GET to work?

??

on twitter

it's a crazy time

maybe she works night shift...

Matt Ellen Д

9:33 PM

aye

I do not work night shift, so I must sleep.

good night!

simchona

Since when does every word have to have a good antonym?

0

Q: what is the opposite of the word "prediction."

I thought of retrospect but it's not really a noun, referring to events that already happened. suggestions welcome.

single-word-requests

Bogdan Lataianu

@simchona possible that appears from translations

simchona

@BogdanLataianu Hmm?

Bogdan Lataianu

like few days ago I wanted to translate "a flower that was opposite of fragile". So I needed the antonym of fragile. It is possible such situations appear when you want to translate

Cerberus

I just don't get why people want single words.

Just use more words. That's how language works.

simchona

9:40 PM

@Cerberus I don't get why you need an opposite for something, as if there always is one good one

It's general reference in that respect: just make them Google for once in their lives

Marthaª

@Cerberus Sometimes, describing the concept in a whole bunch of words just doesn't have the desired impact. (E.g. küszöbgörcs.)

Cerberus

@simchona It's not always simple to find such things on Google, but, yes, they should at least try that.

@Marthaª Then so be it. Sentences can be recast...

Bogdan Lataianu

so while translations are not allowed, you may hide them as genuine questions about English words

Cerberus

Exactly.

simchona

> Here is the exact situation. I make a "prediction" of something I already know happened(for example, suggesting the close price of the market after it already closed). Another person responds "a nice prediction =)"... However it's really a prediction, but seemingly opposite of that. I'm looking for the term for that

Marthaª

9:45 PM

@Cerberus It's not a matter of one single sentence. Most of the time, when you're looking for a word for something, it's something you keep encountering, and you wish there were a way to concisely talk about that exact concept, without having to spend half an hour describing it every single time.

user19161

@simchona After reading everything there I don't know what he is asking.

Marthaª

There's also a certain amount of pleasure in discovering that other people experience the same things you do, to the point of having words for it. (Semantic satiation, for example.)

user19161

Given the context stated, how is it opposite in any good sense?

user19161

Closing as not a real question.

Cerberus

@Marthaª Well, if people know what you are talking about because you have already explained it, as above, you can use an inaccurate but short description the next time, such as "false prediction" in this case.

user19161

9:52 PM

If he was talking about looking back to the past, I would go for "recollection".

Cerberus

Normally that wouldn't be clear; but in context it can be. This was just off the top of my head, not a pretty term.

user19161

But that's not what he's asking, recollection.

simchona

I think he doesn't understand that a "good prediction" is still a prediction

user19161

@simchona Then he should not use the word "opposite".

simchona

@JasperLoy Nope. I put that in a comment.

user19161

9:54 PM

Notice how I put my periods outside quotes; I use BrE. :)

Cerberus

I mean, I can see why people might want synonyms and antonyms, but I think many are focusing on them too much.

user19161

@Cerberus I'm confused whether it is focusing or focussing, both both are correct.

Cerberus

I always forget the rules about double consonants, but I know that single s is generally most common.

Double l is British, but not double s, I think.

user19161

Same for focused and focussed; both are used.

user19161

But foci sounds pretentious in a non-scientific context.

Bogdan Lataianu

10:02 PM

@Jasper spelling is a pain. Did you notice you have pronounce, but pronunciation

user19161

@BogdanLataianu Indeed, I was the one who edited all the pronounciations out from this site!

simchona

7

Q: Why is the spelling of pronounce and pronunciation different?

Why is the spelling of 'pronounce' and 'pronunciation' different? One would expect, if he or she originally did not know the spelling of pronunciation, when hearing it verbally, deduce that it would be spelled as "pronounciation", which is the incorrect spelling. Why is he difference in spelling...

etymology american-english british-english

user19161

@simchona Of course, I left the pronounciation in that one since that is what is meant to be.

user19161

Can you imagine the boss saying "the foci of the meeting"?

simchona

I just ran a check on that :p

user19161

10:04 PM

But new ones might pop up now and then.

user19161

And most of the pronounciations cam e from thurs.

user19161

And a lot of the occurences came from thurs and FF.

Jez

What is a 'haler'? that's the second time i've heard that word.

it must be London slang for something.

something to do with riots?

FallenAngelEyes

@simchona @Robusto's comment there reminds me of the same problem I have with "utterly"

simchona

@Jez One who hales.

FallenAngelEyes

10:07 PM

Often when I go to type it, I type "utterfly" instead because my muscle memory tends to recognize that sequence of letters as "butterfly."

user19161

@Jez I only know hale and hearty means strong and healthy.

Jez

@simchona it's being used as a noun meaning something rather than someone: twitter.com/#!/bbc5live/status/100683117827850241

they keep saying "haler" and i dont know what the fuck they're talking about

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Yes, I think it's called procedural memory.

user19161

@Jez Need to bowdlerize; Matt and I got suspended.

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy I guess I apparently type "butterfly" more often than "utterly." I'm not sure what that says about me.

user19161

10:09 PM

I only ever used ventolin inhaler for my asthma.

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy Wait, really? There's a language restriction here?

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes It probably says you are a girl who likes butterflies.

Jez

you can't say the word f**k here without getting suspended?

pfft

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy wrinkles nose

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Well, just avoid anything too extreme!

Jez

10:10 PM

too late to edit anyway

@ops that isn't worthy of suspension, it's regular language and this is a casual chatroom.

user19161

@Jez We were suspended from chat for 30 min.

Jez

ludicrous.

FallenAngelEyes

That's only if someone actually flags it as offensive though, neh?

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Sort of.

Jez

what are they worried about? kids getting bad words in their heads?

user19161

10:11 PM

@Jez not really.

user19161

@Jez maybe.

user19161

@Jez nvm then.

Jez

i was unaware this room was for kids

i thought it was for adults discussing english casually

user19161

@Jez and mostly other topics of course.

Jez

heh

they just switched over to Ken Livingstone on BBC News 24

time to turn off. :-)

user19161

10:14 PM

@FallenAngelEyes don't wrinkle your nose too much, or you might become fallen angel nose.

user19161

But I hope you become the risen angel soon.

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy Haha

user19161

@Jez And probably time to sleep too.

Jez

yeah

im gonna ask that haler question though.

simchona

@Jez I was being facetious earlier with "one whos hales"

FallenAngelEyes

10:16 PM

Gonna afk for the evening I think, g'night all. :)

Cerberus

Hi and bye!

@Jez Perhaps it something like "hailer", one who hails?

I was thinking plunderer, but that didn't fit the context of that Twitter message.

Jez

yeah

and "with a loud haler" sounds like an object

again, my best guess is megaphone but if so it's bizarre Estuary English slang

not even most Brits seem to understand it, and BBC made no attempt to clarify it

Megaphone

A megaphone, speaking-trumpet, bullhorn, blowhorn, or loud hailer is a portable, usually hand-held, cone-shaped horn used to amplify a person’s voice towards a targeted direction. This is accomplished by channelling the sound through the megaphone, which also serves to match the acoustic impedance of the voice cords to the air. The natural human voice tends to spread evenly in all directions, whereas when it is sent through a megaphone, the sound is concentrated in a given direction and the coupling of its energy to the air optimised. The trade-off is that if a listener is to the side...

> A megaphone, speaking-trumpet, bullhorn, blowhorn, or loud hailer

haha

well there ya go, not heard of that.

Cerberus

@Jez Yeah that must be it. Odd people, them Englishmen.

Jez

im english and ive never heard of that phrase. it ought to be hyphenated

loud-hailer would at least look like it was a specific term, rather than an adjective-noun

Cerberus

Agreed.

I know you're English, and it's your people who are using "haler"!

Jez

10:28 PM

no, it's semiliterate Estuary English Tweeters

they're far from what I consider to be 'my people'

;-)

Cerberus

Hehe.

Fair enough.

I am all for England in general.

z7sg Ѫ

This is deffo gen ref:

0

Q: What's the meaning of 'haler'?

This doesn't seem to be general reference, because in the context I've seen it used tonight (the London riots), it certainly isn't referring to a coin, or 'a person who hails'. I've heard it used several times now by mainstream media reporters; they saw someone with a "loud haler". Here's an ex...

meaning meaning-in-context slang

simchona

@z7sgѪ We tried. It was a decent conversation

z7sg Ѫ

Oh hai you've discussing it already. Well as a Brit I can say this is a common word.

simchona

@z7sgѪ But it was spelled wrong or something? "hailer" not "haler"

z7sg Ѫ

10:35 PM

Sure but it was obvious what it was, I mean really guys! Come on!

Maybe it is some kind of revolutionary new communication tool yes?

Sorry I have been drinking beer and watching rolling news...

user19161

@z7sgѪ Didn't know unicorns drink beer. I thought they only drank water from the river.

Cerberus

@z7sgѪ Jez is as British as you are.

z7sg Ѫ

15 mins ago, by Jez

they're far from what I consider to be 'my people'

Cerberus

He was talking about the looters...

z7sg Ѫ

must be a immagrent yeh a forriner innit

"I've heard it used several times now by mainstream media reporters; they saw someone with a "loud haler""

user19161

10:54 PM

2

Q: Meaning of "sweaty pastries"

In the New York Times, An adjacent lounge, called Collage, looks like a modern airport bistro. It serves breakfast by day (a continental spread of sweaty pastries), and drinks and bar food by night. Does sweaty pastries sound correct to you? Could it be a typo for sweet pastries?

phrases meaning-in-context

user19161

Interesting question and answer.

user19161

There is another possibility: baker's sweat dropped onto pastries, so don't buy.

Cerberus

@z7sgѪ Is that a looter? At least he is stealing food, not luxury products. He might be hungry.

z7sg Ѫ

@Cerberus He's taking it home to his mum!

Cerberus

See?

user19161

11:05 PM

I see. I think, therefore I am.

Cerberus

You're just dreaming that.

user19161

Indeed. One hour ago, I said: Life is a dream.

trg787

We ruined. At spring $1 cost 3000 local roubles, now it's 7000. Don't know what to to do, guys. Prices boosted to the sky

user19161

@trg787 Then do nothing, seriously. There is a Chinese proverb yi jing wei dong: let silence be movement.

Cerberus

Wise.

user19161

11:18 PM

@jez You are back!

Cerberus

He was hungry so he ate a few looters.

Jez

yup, just watching bbc news too

it's really London burning

user19161

I gave you a +1 for the question since I wanna know the answer too.

Cerberus

Is it spreading? Or just in a few bad neighbourhoods?

user19161

It might not be a typo.

user19161

11:19 PM

Let's see who knows.

Cerberus

Hmm hailer seems quite likely.

Jez

@Cerberus it seems very widespread

user19161

Then the media is really messed up.

simchona

z7sg says its "gen ref"

Jez

luckily i'm no longer in London, not for several years

trg787

11:20 PM

@Jasper, it's my politics But I think to myself: living in the 21-th century like a slave Where is THE PROGRESS?

simchona

Well, I'm getting out of this conversation before it gets depressing.

z7sg Ѫ

@Jez It's widespread on twitter.

user19161

@trg787 A few days ago I said: I've given up on politics. This world will be full of shit until I take over!

Jez

@z7sg well... and in London

i'm monitoring #londonriots on twitter

how do you find out other hashtags to monitor?

z7sg Ѫ

no idea i have my sources following people like this: twitter.com/#!/PaulLewis

i cba myself though

simchona

11:25 PM

Dupe?

0

Q: Correct usage of quotation marks in conjunction with question marks

If I'm quoting something some when said, but I want to end it with a question mark, would it be: Are you sure she said "Spicy?" or Are you sure she said "Spicy"? When the original quote does not have a question mark.

grammar question-mark quotations

Cerberus

@Jez So are the riots still limited to bad neighbourhoods? And how many rioters are there, very roughly?

Jez

hard to say. a few thousand?

in groups of hundreds spread around london

rioters/arsonists/looters

Cerberus

Especially arsonists are horrible.

Will they call in the army?

Perhaps it is time.

Jez

no idea

Cerberus

No talk of that?

Jez

11:29 PM

im just thinking i used to live in Walthamstow

and i dont now, heh. i jumped ship years ago

there have been a bunch of ppl emailing the BBC about bringing the army in

Cerberus

Good.

Jez

there's going to be a COBRA meeting

Cerberus

Cobra?

Jez

but ultimately you've got an underlying class of poor, uneducated, bitter people

and i have my doubts about multiculturalism

Cabinet Office Briefing Room A

Cerberus

Yes, and something should be done about that. Ghettoes are bad.

Ah OK.

Jez

11:30 PM

some thing they convene for big security threats

Cerberus

Cool.

Jez

usually terrorism actually

ha, the police say tonight's events are "simply unexcusable"

they sure know how to tell the bleedin obvious

Cerberus

Actually that sounds familiar (I was first thinking of the painters CoBrA).

How long has that term COBRA existed?

z7sg Ѫ

@Cerberus Sounds like they are all over... Hackney Woolwich Camden Ealing Clapham Croydon Deptford Chalk Farm. A few hundred in one place then they disappear and more appear somehwere else. It's unbelievable. Sounds like the police can't keep up with it.

Jez

@Cerberus qutie a while...

Cerberus

11:32 PM

@z7sgѪ Yeah I read that the police were simply outnumbered too, though perhaps only locally so. Are those all bad neighbourhoods?

trg787

After Tchernobyl I hate my land It was tremendous forests, lynxs, mushrooms, berryis of any sort

Cerberus

@Jez Then I might have heard it in Yes Minister (best comedy ever!).

Jez

i cant find a recorded vid of it

but there's a building in Croydon which was just a bonfire

biggest fire ive seen in a long time

amazing to watch tbh, the smoke was everywhere

Cerberus

channel4.com/news/london-riots-interactive-timeline-map

Jez

like all over the floor

Cerberus

11:34 PM

A map.

The floor?

Jez

►

z7sg Ѫ

@Cerberus They were all bad at one point but some have recently become a more civilised. I just don't think police can respond in sufficient numbers quickly enough. When they do the looters are already running away, setting stuff on fire.

Jez

and that is after the main fire i'd say

at one point it was white hot almost

user19161

@simchona I don't know but I've answered already to get some rep on my miserable rep. I'll leave the more diff questions to you. :)

Jez

►

Cerberus

11:37 PM

@Jez Wowie, looks pretty bad.

Jez

apparently 3 fire engines turned up and turned back again

Cerberus

@z7sgѪ I thought they had cameras everywhere in England? Don't those help?

Jez

lol @Cerberus

yeah, Livingstone's Big Brother cameras will probably be used over time

the ones that aren't burnt

maps.google.co.uk/maps/…

i wonder whether the Sharia police are doing a good job stopping this in those Sharia Law zones.

Cerberus

Heh.

Jez

apparently there was looting in Walthamstow. Where is the Caliphate when you need it?

Cerberus

11:41 PM

Is it mostly whites or foreigners?

The rioters.

user19161

foreigners can be whites too.

Cerberus

Yeah, but probably not there.

user19161

Maybe Cerberus was there?

Jez

predominantly black altho in some areas more mixed

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Nah we have enough fires down here.

Jez

11:42 PM

poor areas (surprise...)

Cerberus

@Jez So it isn't the BNP electorate.

user19161

@Cerberus Ya, considering you always cook eggplants and what have you.

Cerberus

Those usually come from white trash, I imagine?

@JasperLoy Courgette today.

Jez

@Cerberus i rather doubt most BNP would do this

believe it or not most of them want to preserve England

sure, they tend to think blacks pollute it but they're not anarchists

Cerberus

The last really bad riots we had here were by squatters, who were mostly extreme left, but also many skinheads, I believe.

@Jez Most probably aren't anarchists. But certain sub-groups—what about skinheads?

Jez

11:45 PM

i dunno about them

Cerberus

Perhaps that is a thing of the eighties.

I don't know either.

user19161

Zucchini

The zucchini (or courgette) is a popularly cultivated summer squash which often grows to nearly a meter in length, but which is usually harvested at half that size or less. Along with certain other squashes, it belongs to the species Cucurbita pepo. Zucchini can be dark or light green, and generally have a similar shape to a ridged cucumber, although some round varieties are also available. A related hybrid, the golden zucchini is a deep yellow or orange color. In a culinary context, the zucchini is treated as a vegetable, which means it is usually cooked and presented as a savory dis...

Cerberus

I say call in the army. Station 5k men in the rioting quarters.

Jez

i'd call my brother (he lives in London) but he's prob asleep

z7sg Ѫ

They will probably track down and arrest some people over the coming weeks and months with the camera images but right now.. I don't know I am a bit shocked they can't keep any control. As for the 'foreigners' thing, no colour of your skin doesn't make you non-British. They're probably mostly kids who have spent their whole lives in the UK, living in relative poverty. That's not meant to excuse their behaviour and people in their own communities are pissed off as well. Stupid kids.

user19161

11:47 PM

I say ask Cerberus to call Medusa and turn the rioters into stone.

user19161

It's National Day to day here. There will be lots of fireworks tonight. But I won't be watching any, nothing special really.

Cerberus

@z7sgѪ Foreigner is often used short for "of foreign descent"; while this isn't negative or positive in itself, it can be a useful term.

@JasperLoy What are they celebrating? Independence?

user19161

@Cerberus Yes, since 1965.

Cerberus

OK cool. From Malaysia, if I remember correctly.

user19161

@Cerberus Yes, and tonight it's hard to go out because you will be squashed in the crowd.

user19161

11:53 PM

So not a good day.

Cerberus

Ah, yes.

I went out yesterday and a flock of tourists was packed so densely and so closely to my door that I couldn't get out until they managed to shuffle aside.

user19161

I wonder why Jeff sometimes pops in here to edit questions. He's here now.

Jez

twitter.com/#!/search/%23prayforlondon

HAHAHAhahaha

yes yes. prayer helping Texas much right now.

user19161

@Cerberus They were probably trying to take a picture of your handsome face, not knowing that I have a few.

z7sg Ѫ

@Cerberus Yeah I just don't think it is really a helpful word to be using here.

Jez

11:56 PM

BBC turned Livingstone on again, I turned off again.

Cerberus

@Jez Texas?

Jez

god help London if they elect him again.

trg787

I'm drunken again

user19161

@Jez Do you know why I don't see anything when I click? Must I have an account there?

Jez

he's a far-left extremist who likes Muslims who want to turn London into an emirate

z7sg Ѫ

11:56 PM

@Jez He was way better than Boris.

No Jez that's insane.

Jez

@JasperLoy the Twitter link? works for me

better than boris? lol

he was utterly atrocious. he was the one who sanctioned that Orwellian ad.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy sticks out tongue Half of my house is from the 17th century, and it has a nice old gable stone with inscription, so they were probably having that explained by their guide...

@z7sgѪ Well, why not? I'd like to know which ethnic groups participate in the riots.

Jez

That is Ken Livingstone.

I HATE Ken Livingstone.

combine that with a far-left Muslim lovefest and, well...

Cerberus

@z7sgѪ I know Jez is usually rather... outspoken.

user19161

@Jez I know him not. I only know that he is not a living stone.

Cerberus

11:59 PM

@Jez Wow that is well funny.

z7sg Ѫ

@Cerberus I heard for example that the Turks in Haringey are out on the streets trying to protect their shops and businesses from looters. They are relatively recent immigrants and more 'foreign' than black kids from Tottenham who ime identify as British.

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