English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

David M

00:03

Anybody home?

Cerberus

Hail.

David M

It's pretty quiet in here tonight.

Cerberus

Everyone is out borrelling, probably.

I just got home.

A borrel is a drink, or an occasion on which one has drinks.

David M

@Cerberus Interesting. Is that Dutch or Cerberusian?

Cerberus

00:18

@DavidM The two overlap, in this case.

David M

@Cerberus Ah. I will add it to my personal dictionary.

Cerberus

English lacks a proper word for "having drinks" or "party where one has drinks, either before or after dinner".

Great!

Hey @JSBձոգչ , I was going to say Romanian sounds so strange.

My mind cannot process a hybdrid of Slavic and Romance sounds.

Especially the codal occlusives are so strange!

user58869

@Cerberus how about "drinks"

Cerberus

@Alex That just...doesn't work as well!

How would you say "afscheidsborrel", for example?

"Having drinks on the occasion of someone's farewell" is what it would mean.

JSBձոգչ

00:39

@Cerberus interesting taht you think it sounds strange

what do you mean by "codal occlusives"?

Cerberus

Occlusives in the coda.

Haiduc.

Voinic.

JSBձոգչ

aha

i don't think that codal is a word in english

Cerberus

I made it up.

JSBձոգչ

well then

Cerberus

What's the adjective of coda?

JSBձոգչ

00:40

haiduc is a great word

Cerberus

Quite.

JSBձոգչ

i don't think there is an adjective of coda

mai voinicule...

Cerberus

Que?

@JSBձոգչ Then there hereby is!

David M

0

A: These vs those before nouns

The selection of these vs. those is the same as this vs. that. (These/those are the plurals of this/that respectively.) All four are demonstrative pronouns in English. Typically, the differentiation between this and that is related to the proximity to the speaker. This proximity can be either...

Robusto

@Cerberus You're the one who was talking about it. That's why.

David M

00:46

I always hesitate to answer questions like this for fear of Edwin or John popping up and disproving my theory.

Cerberus

@Robusto About Comodo? I didn't even know they had a browser?

I think you are confusing me with some other hellhound. Not that I mind.

David M

@Cerberus You're the one with 3 heads, right? ;-)

Robusto

Oct 6 '12 at 3:12, by Cerberus

I have installed Comodo on my mother's computer.

Cerberus

@Robusto Ahh haha, you had to look that far back?

Yeah that was their anti-virus software.

David M

@Cerberus Irish wake if they died. One for the road if they are merely leaving. Farewell drink if they are going on a journey.

Robusto

00:50

Well, who was talking about it just today then?

Cerberus

Not I?

I think I saw someone talking about Komodo.

Robusto

Naw.

Cerberus

@DavidM Yes! By brother Orthrus has only two.

@DavidM And if they leave the company?

David M

@Cerberus He must be such a disappointment.

Cerberus

Quite.

David M

00:51

@Cerberus Farewell drink is perfectly appropriate.

Cerberus

@DavidM Does that imply it is an organised party?

David M

@Cerberus Not implied.

Cerberus

Right.

David M

It can be, but it is not inherent to the word.

Cerberus

So it is implied in the Dutch word if that compound word.

David M

00:53

For example, if you get an invitation: Join us for a Farewell Drink . . .

Cerberus

Yeah that would be a party.

David M

Exactly.

I assume that Dutch is like German in its ability to string together smaller words?

Cerberus

Yes.

Although, really, English does the exact same thing, except that it adds some spaces.

David M

Sure.

It's all derived from the same proto-languages

Cerberus

The construction, including the accentuation, is the same.

Yes.

In fact, many Dutchmen add spaces. It is called the English Disease and frowned upon by those of a literary mind.

David M

00:58

That's why intelligent speakers of English can often suss out the meaning when reading Germanic and Scandanavian languages.

@Cerberus HA! Take that! Evolve your old language.

Cerberus

Sure. And Scandinavian is Germanic as well.

David M

I'm aware.

Cerberus

@DavidM Never!! The corruption of commercialese and pop culture!

David M

I'm not sure why I listed them separately.

@Cerberus You will be assimilated.

Cerberus

@DavidM Yeah I didn't think you didn't know.

Grrr...

David M

01:00

@Cerberus I'm glad that I've left an intelligent impression upon you.

Cerberus

Yes, well, it would have been rather absurd to bring up the similarities between English and other Germanic languages while thinking the Scandinavian languages were not Germanic. It would have been schizophrenic, like...my brother Orthrus with his two heads.

David M

Exactly.

Cerberus

Then again, I am not privy to your medical history.

David M

@Cerberus I've had a sigmoid colectomy for diverticulitis, I have chronic gastroesophageal reflux disorder. You're now privy to it.

Cerberus

@DavidM So many difficult words!

Sigmoid...names after a certain Sigmund?

Colectomy, cutting out guts?

Diverticulitis, a disease having to do with diverting...food?

David M

01:11

Sigmoid named after it's s-shape. And colectomy, cutting out a section of guts.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Chronic gastroesophageal reflux disorder is clear enough.

David M

Diverticula - out pouching of the wall of a tubular organ (the colon for example).

Diverticulitis - inflammation of said pouch.

Cerberus

Ah, I see. A diversion of the road down there.

Does gastroesophagal reflux mean that acid is flowing up from your stomach to your esophagus?

David M

Correct.

Cerberus

Does it happen a lot?

David M

01:13

It causes the condition commonly known as heartburn.

Cerberus

Hmm...

David M

@Cerberus It's one of the most common medical conditions.

Cerberus

I have heard that word, but never knew what it meant.

I mean, does the reflux happen often to you.

David M

Irritation of the esophagus causing pain behind the sternum.

Yes, but I take suppressive medication.

So, it rarely affects me.

Gastroesophageal reflux disease

Gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD), gastro-oesophageal reflux disease (GORD), gastric reflux disease, or acid reflux disease is a chronic symptom of mucosal damage caused by stomach acid coming up from the stomach into the esophagus. GERD is usually caused by changes in the barrier between the stomach and the esophagus, including abnormal relaxation of the lower esophageal sphincter, which normally holds the top of the stomach closed, impaired expulsion of gastric reflux from the esophagus, or a hiatal hernia. These changes may be permanent or temporary. Treatment is typically via ...

Cerberus

Ah, I see.

What is the pain like?

Does it sometimes appear to a layman sufferer to be a heart condition?

David M

01:15

Retrosternal burning. Occasional acid taste/feeling/burning in the rear of the throat.

@Cerberus On occasion yes.

Cerberus

OK.

That explains the strange name, I suppose.

David M

We refer to it as atypical chest pain. (Atypical to a heart attack.)

Cerberus

Ah, is that what atypical normally means in medical parlance?

David M

@Cerberus Only with regard to chest pain.

Cerberus

OK.

David M

01:17

Atypical cells are pre-cancerous or cancerous.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Atypical to a heart attack specifically, or to any heart condition or issue?

Robusto

@MattЭллен Do Brits think Ricky Gervaise is overrated?

Cerberus

I was wondering about some medical principle earlier today that I meant to ask you about. But I forgot what it was about.

David M

@Cerberus Too bad. I would happily have answered.

Cerberus

Wait, I remember.

There is this therapy against melanoma where they give you medication for a certain period of time, say two weeks, then stop for two weeks, then two weeks of medication again, etc.

The idea is that this helps against immunity.

David M

01:21

Hmmmmm . . . tachyphylaxis or just resistance to the therapy itself?

Cerberus

I read about thus study that said this alternation worked well against melanoma.

I don't know, how fast is tachy?

Or what do you mean by tachyphylaxis?

Quick prevention?

David M

!!define tachyphylaxis

Cerberus

Or quick protection of the cancerous cells against the medicine?

David M

She must be sleeping.

Cerberus

Hmm the bot is in bed.

Haha.

David M

01:23

dictionary.reference.com/browse/tachyphylaxis

It's the diminished sensitivity to a treatment over periods of exposure.

Cerberus

How is that different from resistance to the therapy?

The definitions are a bit confusing.

David M

When speaking of infection or cancer, you worry that the cells will develop resistance in the form of mutation, etc. When you give a drug that is cytotoxic, you are selecting for the cells that are resistant to that therapy.

Robusto

That's what happens with addictive drugs, right? People build up tolerance over time?

David M

@Robusto Yes, similar to tolerance

Tachyphylaxis is more it stops working . . .

Cerberus

How do you mean "in the form of mutation"?

But I know how resistance in general works, about selecting for resistant cells and such.

David M

01:27

@Cerberus If you take an antibiotic that attacks the cell walls of bacteria, then if there are cells that have a mutation which makes them resistant . . . those cells will be selected for.

Cerberus

Yes.

David M

In the case of chemotherapeutic agents and rapidly dividing cells, you can actually push the cells toward mutation.

Cerberus

So that sounds like what this study was about; but what's the difference between this and tachyphylaxis?

David M

Tachyphylaxis is different.

Say I inject a local anesthetic over and over again.

Over time, the body will just become resistant to its effect.

Cerberus

Right.

Like Robusto's tolerance to drugs.

David M

01:29

Something about the modulation of sodium channels, etc.

Cerberus

But that is not about killing evil beasties or viruses?

David M

Tolerance is due to the up regulation of receptors.

Cerberus

Up regulation?

David M

For example: Opioids work on the Mu receptor.

If you block the Mu receptor, people feel high.

(This is the very simple version . . . )

Cerberus

Naturally.

David M

01:31

Eventually, the body gets wise to the fact that its receptors are blocked and makes more.

Now, you have to add more drug to block the receptors.

Eventually the body gets wise again . . .

Makes more.

And so on . . .

Cerberus

Right.

But does this apply to combating bacteria, viruses, cancerous cells, or fungi?

David M

Compare to tachyphylaxis which is more of a sodium channel that stops responding to the signals from the drug.

@Cerberus Bacteria, viruses, fungi, no.

Cancer cells, maybe because they have similar receptors to natural cells.

It depends upon what the mechanism of effect is for the drug in question.

Cerberus

Could melanoma therapy affect receptors in cancerous cells?

David M

@Cerberus Potentially. If it is a drug that signals them to "self-destruct".

Cerberus

Hmm.

David M

01:35

Apoptosis.

Cerberus

So the difference is between medication that instructs cells on the one hand, and medication that simply poisons cells in a more simple, crude way?

David M

@Cerberus Yes.

Cerberus

OK.

David M

The ones that instruct cells would be more prone to tachyphylaxis.

Cerberus

More?

It's not yes/no?

RegDwigнt

01:37

0

A: What is [tag:senses]?

Isn't sense a grammar category like 'voice' or 'tense'. Google wasn't a lot of help in finding a definite answer.

slowly raises eyebrow

loses monocle

David M

@Cerberus Correct.

RegDwigнt

I'm a bit surprised that a 3k user would ask that.

David M

@RegDwigнt I must say I understand it context, but wouldn't give a good definition myself.

RegDwigнt

Not because a 3k user must be knowledgeable about the subject, mind you.

Jul 21 '11 at 15:45, by RegDwight

3k does not mean "expert on the subject matter". 3k only means "expert on how to get to 3k".

But rather because a 3k user must be knowledgeable about the site to the extent of not posting a question as an answer...

Oh well, what do I know.

David M

@RegDwigнt That I agree with.

Even in Meta that seems . . . out of place.

Cerberus

01:40

@RegDwigнt Yeah that's really weird.

RegDwigнt

This sentence is in present tense, active voice, and many sense.

@Cerberus that would be the chat. I thought you knew. Though I guess you forgot.

Cerberus

@DavidM Okay, so either way, apparently, in some contexts, it pays off to apply medication in alternating waves and pauses. However, there is also the phenomenon that you need to carry through something like antibiotic therapy until the end, because, if you stop too early or do not take the antibiotics consistently, they will develop resistance and come out stronger, or something. This seems to be the opposite of the alternating therapy. A paradox.

RegDwigнt

goes back to not interfering

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt I rather thought it was the entire site.

RegDwigнt

You shall not interfere with paradoxen.

David M

01:43

@Cerberus Yes. That's why I was confused, myself.

Cerberus

Why would we have a site if not to entertain us?

RegDwigнt

Well, technically we do not have it.

David M

It's at least two doxes.

Cerberus

If we stop doing what we do, the site ends.

So we kind of have it.

RegDwigнt

We did not inherit ELU from our ancestors, we but borrowed it from our children.

Cerberus

01:44

@DavidM So I was wondering about what factors determine which paradigm is more effective.

David M

@Cerberus That's not true. It would grow weeds in the form of people asking off-topic questions.

Cerberus

Heh.

David M

@Cerberus I cannot say.

Cerberus

And what happens to castles that grow weeds, eventually?

RegDwigнt

They turn into the Netherlands.

David M

01:45

It's outside of my field of knowledge.

RegDwigнt

Luckily my field of knowledge is amazingly vast.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Bah. But we would take our children with us. Like...David.

We are "we" in the broad sense.

RegDwigнt

No, only you are we. I is I.

Cerberus

@DavidM Hm OK. It just seemed strange.

David M

@Cerberus To me, too.

Cerberus

01:46

@RegDwigнt No, my we is as all-inclusive as a resort in Antalya.

David M

8 hours ago, by Matt Эллен

But, really, we're not Customer Services for the English language.

I've been laughing at that all night.

Cerberus

That's ELL.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus this is English, not Russian. Our we is exclusive.

Cerberus

You are mistaken. This is the Dutch room.

At some point, we were 3 v. 2 Dutch here.

We captured the flag.

David M

@RegDwigнt We beg to differ. (Me and my royal subjects.)

Cerberus

01:48

That's not a real pluralis maiestatis.

David M

Well, I'm relatively new at being a monarch.

RegDwigнt

02:04

I see I've been missing quite some fun on Meta again.

Cerberus

Oh?

RegDwigнt

13

Q: Bring back the Summer of Love (aka Make new users feel more welcome)

I'm a big fan of SE sites and spend an awful lot of time on StackOverflow. When I saw an English Language site, I pointed a few of my friends and family this way (one of whom is an English professor and another is a TEFL teacher). I thought they'd enjoy the site, expand their own knowledge and m...

discussion

As chance would have it, I for one sort of have been running just that in the last few weeks, barely even looking at the site at all. I don't even know what questions have been asked, apart from some dupes I merged.

Stats sez, I barely made 60 edits this month. I'd normally do that many on a single day.

Anyway, I find phenry's answer particularly relevant: we are victims of our own popularity.

We can't stop the tide. And we haven't even seen the tide yet.

I can hear Cerberus dancing with delight right now.

@MrHen if there's a solution, even SO hasn't figured it out yet — and they have have been figuring it out for much longer, and with three gazillion orders of magnitude more outfigurers, too.

We have like a couple dozen people tops who care at all this way or the other. All the while the page views keep skyrocketing.

So perhaps the solution is to give in and give up and become just another SO, with that Futurama quote plastered over the entrance: "the Internet has a place for everyone... and here it is!" (paraphrasing).

Cerberus

02:47

@RegDwigнt Yay! I guess?

Cerberus

03:15

> 30.504

Robusto

04:03

Hey, @Reg, how're things?

David M

04:18

@Robusto U around? I'm rather bored.

Robusto

I'm around.

David M

I was actually bored enough to write a meta answer to the question above

Robusto

Just having a nightcap, heading to bed presently.

David M

The last few days on ELU have been a dry hole.

Robusto

Ah. I thought about it, then decided to stay out of it.

David M

04:19

I'm a new enough user that I can write about my experience a bit.

Robusto

Yeah. I'm just painfully bored with the whole thing.

David M

I hear you.

I basically said be kind, rewind.

Robusto

Yeah. That may be the third or fourth time such a question has come up. Maybe more.

David M

56th probably.

Duplicates are good for the soul? Or some such nonsense.

Robusto

Not for my soul.

David M

04:22

Ha

Robusto

I get bored easily.

David M

I didn't win the bounty on the balls question ...

Robusto

I doni't know that one.

David M

Even though my answer was the most up voted.

13

Q: Why place a hand on the Bible instead of the Judge's genitals when taking an oath?

Etymonline gives the etymology of testify as ...from testis "a witness".. + root of facere "to make"... Biblical sense of "openly profess one's faith and devotion" is attested from 1520s. Related: Testified; testifying; testification. (also, testament, intestate, etc.) In Biblical times, to...

meaning etymology

Robusto

Well, I don't think I've ever won a bounty.

David M

04:24

Me neither.

Robusto

You're only here a few months. I retired long before you ever arrived.

David M

@Robusto I see your point.

Robusto

Except for the Christmas nonsense, to help the team get hats, I haven't answered a question for over a year.

David M

Really? So, you just hang on the chat for visiting with friends?

Robusto

Pretty much. I make comments from time to time. Check my activity log.

I can't be arsed to actually answer a question.

David M

04:29

I get that.

I try to answer the questions I find interesting. But, then we get into dry days and I answer any crap that comes down the pipe.

Robusto

Very few are ever interesting. Back when the system was new maybe they were a little better, I dunno.

But as any system matures it clusters toward the mean.

David M

18

Q: How would you describe the semantic phenomenon that allows this joke?

Groucho Marx had a joke that's long been a favorite of mine: I've had a wonderful time; this wasn't it. I assume he's using the present perfect to say I've had a wonderful time. But, when he tacks on this wasn't it does it change to past perfect? Or was it past perfect all along because o...

grammar past-tense

One of mine . . .

Robusto

+1: There is no equivalent word in English. Most cultures don't match idiom for idiom, but this is especially true when you are talking about a culture in which position relative to any specific individual determines, literally, what nouns, pronouns (if at all), and verb forms you use to address them (Japanese) and one that finds such a notion not only strange but downright baffling (American, Western, etc.) Not every word has a translation. How would you render 大和魂 in English: Patriotism? National pride? No English term even comes close. You'd need a paragraph at least. — Robusto Mar 19 at 14:44

See, I commented on one of your answers.

David M

@Robusto Yes, I forgot. I liked your comment.

Robusto

107

A: Is there a name for this type of sentence structure: "She looks as though she's been poured into her clothes, and forgot to say 'when'"?

This is called paraprosdokian. A paraprosdokian (from Greek "παρα-", meaning "beyond" and "προσδοκία", meaning "expectation") is a figure of speech in which the latter part of a sentence or phrase is surprising or unexpected in a way that causes the reader or listener to reframe or reinterpre...

Asked and answered, kind of.

Ah, so I did win a bounty after all. I didn't even know.

David M

04:34

Ha!

No one even gave the same answer!

Although, technically, I was looking for the grammatical sense.

So, I could translate it.

Robusto

Which is why I didn't mark it as a dupe. But I didn't even notice it till you linked it here.

David M

Great answer BTW.

Robusto

TY.

32

A: "Oriented" vs. "orientated"

People say orientated because they hear the word orientation and think that's the verb made from it. It's called a "back-formation". (See Why are "colleagues" becoming "work colleagues"?). Orientated is accepted as an alternate by most dictionaries I've seen. To orient something comes from the m...

Maybe my favorite answer.

David M

That is a good one.

Dilated vs. dilitated.

Same issue.

Robusto

I thought of that joke in an art history class in college. Took me 30 years to use it.

David M

04:40

@Robusto Ha!

Robusto

I never throw anything away, obviously.

So you're in some kind of medical job?

David M

Anesthesiologist

Robusto

Hence the defendant joke.

David M

Yup

It's actually a racist joke that fits any group if used properly

Robusto

When I had my first knee surgery (I played basketball until it wrecked my knees), the anesthesiologist came in and asked me what kind of anesthesia I would like. I said, "Can I see a menu?"

"What's good today?"

David M

04:42

Propofol stew.

Robusto

They wound up giving me an epidural and some kind of narcotics to make me somnolent.

Second time was a general.

David M

@Robusto That's a good way of doing things.

@Robusto As is that.

Robusto

Third time (knee replacement) they gave me a spinal block and general anesthesia.

David M

Interesting. I usually just do the spinal unless it fails.

Robusto

But the funny one was when I had eye surgery a few decades ago. The doctor asked me if I wanted general anesthesia or a local. I asked what happens in the local. He said they freeze the nerve. I said how did they freeze it? He said they apply a blocking agent to the nerve. I said how did they apply it. Finally he admitted that they stick a big honking needle in your eye. I said I'd take the general.

@DavidM I think they really don't want you to wake up to the sound of your bones being sawed through.

David M

04:46

@Robusto Myeh . . . that's what the sedation is for.

Robusto

And I have to say, the recovery from that was the most painful thing I've ever experienced — and I've had kidney stones.

David M

They just found a creative way to bill more.

Robusto

Not surprising.

David M

Really? I've not heard that.

Robusto

Well, I'm here to tell you it's true. What hurt was the PT, and their stinginess with medication. I passed out from the pain the day after the surgery when they were trying to get me to flex and extend.

David M

04:49

OK, now I have to post it. The difference between dilation and dilatation.

@Robusto That shouldn't happen. They should give you meds when you're in pain.

Robusto

They went from giving me Oxycodone to Dilaudid. And the Dilaudid didn't even help. I'm not sure what it even is. But it's supposed to be strong stuff.

David M

@Robusto Oxy vs Dilaudid is Coke vs Pepsi

Works for some works for others.

It's giving enough that makes the difference.

Robusto

What should they have given me?

David M

More of either.

Robusto

Anyway, I tell you this: I could never get addicted to opiates. I just hate they way they make me feel. All dull and lifeless, like you're living in a sock.

David M

04:51

I agree.

Robusto

I don't know how people could find that pleasurable.

David M

Although dilaudid didn't make me that high or sick. Just made my pain go away.

Oxycodone made me want to curl up and die.

Robusto

What did you have it for?

David M

Sigmoid colon resection.

Robusto

Ouch.

David M

04:52

It wasn't pleasant. I had an ileostomy for 3 months afterwards.

Robusto

I tell you what, I really hope I never get cancer, because I have no confidence that they will be able to manage that pain.

David M

I hear that!

Robusto

And all that these drug laws do is make it hard for people with legitimate pain to get it treated.

What a fucked-up society.

David M

Hmmmmmm . . . I want to ask this question: What is the difference between dilation and dilatation. It seems the answer is they're the same thing. But, I want to ask why did it migrate from dilatation to dilation? Is that on-topic?

@Robusto Agreed

Robusto

Now people are dying from heroin overdoses. The solution will no doubt be to put more people in jail.

Isn't dilatation a term of art in the medical field?

David M

04:55

@Robusto We use both.

Robusto

As in dilatation and curettage?

David M

And, some use them interchangeably.

@Robusto Yes.

But, the question is why did dilation become an acceptable form?

Pupils dilated.

Robusto

Yeah. You could ask that. I would recommend looking up the etymologies and posting those with your question, to show you are in a legitimate quandary.

David M

I may do that.

Of course, John Lawler will probably scold me for daring to post a question because my speaking of English doesn't qualify me to ask questions about it

Robusto

What's wrong with your English?

David M

04:58

IDK I'm a native speaker.

He just hates people who speak English.

What benefit is derived from encouraging participants with questions? Is there any way to encourage participants with answers? We can't even answer the questions we get now, and they're most of them the same questions anyway, with the same false presuppositions. – John Lawler yesterday

Robusto

@DavidM Nah. He's just a retired professor of linguistics who figures he has a line on everything. He doesn't brook differences with his opinions lightly.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…