English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

17:00

@KitSox Scary! I can't find anything about paralysis in humans, though.

@Robusto Can you disable Flash in Chrome?

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes. But read above for further information.

terdon

@Cerberus I don't think they cause it. Many animal venoms cause paralysis in their prey but the concentration and quantity is almost never enough to affect something our size.

Cerberus

@Robusto It was a bit confusing.

terdon

There's a reason why we're the top predator on the planet.

Cerberus

@terdon Right, makes sense. It is just that my friend told me they could and did.

He is an archaeologist.

terdon

17:02

Perhaps some of the really huge ones can.

Cerberus

His friend had some trouble using her hand for a day or so, was the story.

Perhaps she was exaggerating, no idea.

But I needs must run.

Later!

Robusto

George MacDonald Fraser, in his book Quartered Safe Out Here, describes encountering a yard-long centipede in the Burmese jungle.

He killed it with a bayonet and hacked it into four pieces. His fellow soldiers measured the pieces and they were about nine inches in length, on average.

terdon

@Cerberus Aaaa what is thaht syntax? I've been meaning to post a Q about it, what is it called?

Things like the Queen must needs relax.

Robusto

@terdon It's called an adverb. ^)^

terdon

pffft

The must needs?

Robusto

17:08

It means "necessarily" or "have to" or whatever.

@terdon You've got it backwards. It's needs must.

Well, I guess it could go in either place.

terdon

@Robusto Oh?

Robusto

It's an archaic construction. I wouldn't worry about it.

phrases.org.uk/meanings/needs-must.html

> The phrase is old. In earlier texts it is almost always given in its fuller form - needs must when the devil drives. that is, if the devil is driving you, you have no choice. This dates back to Middle English texts, for example Assembly of Gods, circa 1500:

terdon

@Robusto I know, I am aware of it just wondering where it comes from.

22

A: Explanation of "must needs"

Needs is an old-fashioned or even archaic adverb in modern English. It comes from the noun need and the Germanic masculine/neuter genitive ending -s, which at some point in time came to be used in older English and other Germanic languages to form adverbs. From the Oxford English Dictionary: ...

@Robusto Yes, that one I'd heard of, but only in the specific context of needs must when the devil drives.

Shakespeare, it's always Shakespeare, should have known.

Robusto

Most of the un- prefixed words were coined by Shakespeare, apparently.

terdon

@Robusto Ah, I recall reading that happiness was also coined by him.

tchrist

17:13

0

Q: Where does "my ass" come from?

The usage of my ass to mean me is now relatively common. My impression is that it originated from AAVE and has since been included in various other dialects. The NGram below implies it became popular in the 70s: However, that is only for the specific usage of save my ass and might not be repre...

terdon

This was in a list of such words in Bryson's Mother Tongue which as I understand is not very sounds linguistically though, so I'm not sure about it. Does it ring any bells?

Robusto

Hmm, maybe my interpretation of star-crossed may be wrong. I was thinking of it as involving fate, but most sources cite it as meaning "unlucky"; still, I wonder. Fate plays such a big part in Shakespeare.

terdon

@tchrist Yes?

tchrist

@terdon You made me guffaw audibly.

terdon

OK, the title could be improved :)

@tchrist That was part of my objective, cheap shots to get views :) It's an honest question though.

tchrist

17:16

@terdon Naw, nobody ever does that. :)

terdon

I know right?

tchrist

@terdon Those ones go both ways, you know.

terdon

@tchrist Red is needs must?

tchrist

books.google.com/ngrams/…

There, better.

terdon

Huh, so must needs is indeed more common. That's what I thought. Thanks.

tchrist

17:23

’Twas.

’Tisn’t now.

terdon

True

Robusto

Neither is used much these days.

Usually only when someone is affecting a stilted manner.

As @Cerberus is sometimes (well, all the time) wont to do.

tchrist

Exactly.

books.google.com/ngrams/…

terdon

I know they're not used, I was wondering about their origin, I had associated them with Victorian English and it seems I wasn't wrong.

Robusto

I would bet that a lot of the current usages are echoes (quotes) of past usages, including Shakespeare.

terdon

17:26

Though Shakespeare can be blamed, as usual.

I first saw it as a teenager in a Brian Talbot comic book, I blush to admit.

Robusto

BTW, here's more proof that Edward De Vere wasn't Shakespeare: An Oxford Edition of Oxford would have been redundant.

tchrist

macbook# grep -c 'needs must' */a
Martin/a:0
Tolkien/a:1
Wolfe/a:0
Zelazny/a:0
macbook# grep -c 'must needs' */a
Martin/a:50
Tolkien/a:2
Wolfe/a:0
Zelazny/a:0

@terdon These days it seems more the results of George Martin’s atrocious writing. :(

terdon

@tchrist What an eclectic mix! Very nice.

Robusto

@terdon I think you mean Bryan Talbot, and there's nothing wrong with that.

terdon

@Robusto I do indeed and no there isn't Talbot is great.

Robusto

17:28

@tchrist Martin is the outlier there. Hah!

tchrist

Indeed so.

terdon

I quite enjoy him, he does tend to ramble on but some of his scifi short stories are very good.

Robusto

Him and his Wardour Street English.

Feb 16 '13 at 16:37, by Robusto

@tchrist The single greatest grating upon my fastidious ear by George Martin: his use of wroth as a noun.

terdon

@Robusto He does that?

Robusto

He does that.

terdon

17:30

Ouch.

Robusto

Feb 16 '13 at 16:40, by tchrist

@Robusto Somewhere I have a posting where I exhaustively enumerate all these fuckups. In one place, he even said "to whence we go", or close to it. Clearly he has no editor with even a scintilla of testicular fortitude.

Feb 16 '13 at 16:42, by Robusto

@tchrist An editor? What is that? Must be an archaic term from the time of books.

tchrist

> Then Mablung was dismayed, but needs must tell to Túrin how Morwen was lost, and Nienor cast into a spell of dumb forgetfulness, and how she escaped them upon the borders of Doriath and fled northwards. [Silmarillion]
‘There is little need to tell of them,’ said Aragorn. ‘If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have.’ [Lord of the Rings]
‘Grievous is our loss,’ said Legolas. ‘Yet we must needs make up our minds without his aid.’ [Lord of the Rings]

So he used needs must in The Silmarillion, and must needs in The Lord of the Rings.

Martin the poseur doesn’t count.

Robusto

Evolution?

Mitch

@terdon That's wrong. All sorts of interesting conversations are people explaining and asking and then agreeing. No disagreement necessary.

tchrist

@Robusto Ancient versus modern voices?

Robusto

17:33

Hmm.

aedia λ

Happy Friday y'all!

terdon

@Mitch Conversations that end in agreement can indeed be interesting. Those that begin with it, less so.

Robusto

@terdon Stop making trouble.

terdon

Never!

Robusto

@aediaλ And to you as well.

tchrist

17:34

As though either were modern.

@Robusto Here’s something for ya: Mercy.

@Robusto I can probably find that for you.

It’s abominable.

terdon

@tchrist Sounds like a fun read.

Robusto

> “It shall go ill for any man who fails me,” he promised, a threat he borrowed from the speech Prince Garin gives on the eve of battle in Wroth of the Dragonlords, Phario Forel’s first play.

tchrist

Wrath, damn it.

terdon

Something like The Literary Offenses of Fenimore Cooper?

tchrist

I am quite wroth with him over using wroth as a substantive. It sounds fakey.

Mitch

17:38

@terdon I'm trying to come up with something that disagrees with that...wait for it...

Robusto

It is fakey.

terdon

@Mitch :)

Mitch

@Robusto that did not involve 'must' or 'needs'.

Robusto

@Mitch It involved wroth.

Which was the peeve in question.

tchrist

macbook# grep -wic wroth */a
Martin/a:51
Tolkien/a:3
Wolfe/a:0
Zelazny/a:1

Mitch

17:39

Wroth is a place name. You may live in Wrath but he lives in Wroth.

terdon

giggle:

> Secretary: "The Dean is furious. He's waxing wroth."
Quincy Adams Wagstaf [Groucho]: "Is Roth out there too? Tell Roth to wax the Dean for a while."
["Horse Feathers," 1932]

tchrist

> But all that they did was known to Manwë, and the Valar were wroth with the Kings of Númenor, and gave them counsel and protection no more; and the ships of Eressëa came never again out of the sunset, and the havens of Andúnië were forlorn.
He is wroth.
His knees shook, and he was wroth with himself.

Mitch

@Robusto You may have moved on but there are still unanswered peeves.

Robusto

@Mitch Alike as peeves in a pod.

tchrist

> “Fair enough,” says Madrak, “for know that our hackles have been raised by a recent battle and we have spent the past hours waxing wroth. Will a swig of good red wine convey our sentiments-coming from what is, doubtless, the only flask of the stuff on this world?”

I refuse to show Martin’s. Many are simply wrong.

Robusto

17:41

Yes. I find Tolkien's unexceptionable.

tchrist

Exactly.

Mitch

He should instead write like Stephanie Meyers, where words with more than one syllable are rare.

tchrist

He also used it in his alliterative poetry.

Mitch

wait...must, needs, wroth, ... hackles! aha 'hackles'

tchrist

> There the children of Men, chieftain and warrior,
fled and fought not, but the folk of the Elves
they betrayed with treason, save that true man only,
Thalion Erithamrod and his thanes like gods.
There in host on host the hill-fiend Orcs
overbore him at last in that battle terrible,
by the bidding of Bauglir bound him living,
and pulled down the proudest of the princes of Men.
To Bauglir's halls in the hills builded,
to the Hells of Iron and the hidden caverns
they haled the hero of Hithlum's land,

> Thalion Erithamrod, to their throned lord, / whose breast was burnt with a bitter hatred, / and wroth he was that the wrack of war / had not taken Turgon ten times a king, / even Finweg's heir; nor Fëanor's children, / makers of the magic and immortal gems.

Mitch

17:44

That's barely Saga fan fic. I bet it is plagiarized from some ancient library under tons of glacier ice in Iceland.

I want to hear Mongol poetry. No glorious battles, tragic misunderstandings...they all start and end with: "So we killed them all."

Cerberus

Hello.

@terdon Did my answer from 2011 answer your question?

terdon

@Cerberus yup, thanks :)

Cerberus

Good to know that the site is not entirely just a place where we entertain ourselves.

Matt Эллен

18:00

yeah, we also "upset" new users

that's got to be worth something

Mitch

@Cerberus What? other people have other intentions?

@MattЭллен Oh yeah. Bonus.

KitFox

We upset people? Where?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен That is worth at least -1!

Matt Эллен

@KitFox everywhere! apparently

12

Q: Bring back the Summer of Love (aka Make new users feel more welcome)

I'm a big fan of SE sites and spend an awful lot of time on StackOverflow. When I saw an English Language site, I pointed a few of my friends and family this way (one of whom is an English professor and another is a TEFL teacher). I thought they'd enjoy the site, expand their own knowledge and m...

discussion

Cerberus

@Mitch No, the world only exists to you in as much as you think you perceive sensory impulses from it. Intentions are a shortcut your mind ascribes to certain patterns in your received impulses.

Matt Эллен

18:03

I keep thinking of writing an answer, but I end up proving his point, so I stop

Cerberus

Haha.

Matt Эллен

But, really, we're not Customer Services for the English language.

12

Cerberus

Have you people heard of Villa Kennedy?

It is apparently a slum in Rio. Pretty funny.

Matt Эллен

I haven't

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Sometimes we seem to be...pull down your pants and let us pat you down, sir and lady!

Again!

KitFox

18:05

I will take that to mean that I should be more aggressive about suspending people who have strong opinions.

(That are contrary to my own.)

Matt Эллен

:D

Merd Aburse

/cartman accent

@Cerberus maybe. maybe a bit. mostly we're nice.

Cerberus

Uhuh.

Matt Эллен

Also, the complaint that there's no community is just hogwash

think of how often we entertain learners in here. For a while.

KitFox

That's a frequent complaint from people who aren't part of the community.

Yeah, and it always bites us in the ... bum.

Always.

Matt Эллен

yeah :(

KitFox

18:09

Well, except for all the times it didn't.

Matt Эллен

:D

@Cerberus a pacifying police unit. interesting. sounds heavy handed

MrHen

18:25

I'm tired of massive Meta conversations that focus on complaining about problems without proposing solutions.

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: Juicy

posted on March 28, 2014 by sgdi

Something was starting to rot The smell was a viscous onslaught It made your eyes weep It made your skin creep It made your nose fill up with snot

KitFox

@MrHen Welcome back.

MrHen

People are more than willing to bitch together but if anyone suggests improvements, Meta gets distracted by debating the definition of irrelevant words.

@KitFox Hello.

And that's my final quip on that subject.

(For at least an hour.)

@KitFox How's your catalog coming along?

KitFox

It's old news, man. That's what it can be so hard to stomach.

Everyone thinks that they're saying something new, when if they only looked they would see at least six prior iterations, including my own, I believe.

@MrHen Oh great!

MrHen

@KitFox It is. People are more willing to find things to change in others than in themselves.

@KitFox Sarcastic great or truly great?

How'd you end up going about it?

KitFox

18:32

In addition to the qa link on production, I found a link to a dead server, two invisible links to our CMS login page, and two links that "invoked" a resource that didn't exist and returned a bare error page.

MrHen

Unanswered is hovering between 190 and 210. Not too bad. This would be easier if we had more people upvoting answers on old questions...

Matt Эллен

mmm, bare errors! so alluring

KitFox

I know, right?

All of which make a good case for why we need a webmaster.

MrHen

@KitFox Fun.

KitFox

Which isn't exactly what I was after.

But whatever.

MrHen

18:34

@KitFox Or at least area owners so you can defer the "annoying" decisions to others. :P

KitFox

Well, it's actually surprisingly good considering how much static content we have.

Matt Эллен

@MrHen one down

MrHen

@KitFox Good!

KitFox

I crawled the site with Powermapper, then imported one of the outputs into Oracle and regex'd it.

MrHen

@MattЭллен If you really want to help, I've created a nifty query: data.stackexchange.com/english/query/171130/…

Matt Эллен

18:35

the thing is, if I look at an answer, I can't upvote it unless I know it's correct, and that means figuring it out. there's a reason I haven't answered the question!

MrHen

@KitFox Cool. Glad you didn't have to roll your own :)

KitFox

Me too.

MrHen

@MattЭллен That's fine. Go through that query and hit the easy stuff. There are still some easy to resolve Unanswered questions out there.

(The query updates on Monday, btw, so it won't immediately reflect your efforts.

KitFox

Now I have to figure out how to schlep through this metadata.

Johan Larsson

> And the shark has pretty teeth

KitFox

18:37

smiles brightly

Johan Larsson

are you the shark?

KitFox

blinks innocently

Jasper Loy

I don't have pretty teeth, so I am not the shark.

KitFox

Well the shark has pretty teeth, dear, and she shows them, pearly white.

Johan Larsson

correct

KitFox

18:39

Just a knife has old Macheath, dear, and he keeps it way out of sight.

Now I'm singing at my desk.

Johan Larsson

german original Ma??e Messer

KitFox

But I'm not sure if I have the words right.

Jasper Loy

I have a confession to make. Are you ready?

Johan Larsson

think you are right

#ready

Jasper Loy

I brush my teeth about once a week only.

Johan Larsson

18:40

why?

Matt Эллен

ewwww

KitFox

shocked and dismayed

Jasper Loy

But they are in perfect condition, except for the colour.

MετάEd

@JohanLarsson So he can shock and dismay us.

Johan Larsson

brushing teeth and showering is quality of life for no cost ime. And sauna on top of that.

@MετάEd could be

Jasper Loy

18:41

I have a theory as to why my teeth are alright still.

Johan Larsson

lets hearit

Jasper Loy

Perhaps the dirt has hardened and forms a protective covering over the teeth, so they don't decay.

Matt Эллен

@MrHen I might get in trouble: I keep upvoting your answers

KitFox

Want me to check?

MrHen

@MattЭллен I just noticed that. :/

Matt Эллен

18:42

@KitFox not yet. it's only been 4 so far :D

KitFox

Stop there, then.

MrHen

Unfortunately, at this point, running that query for anyone else will just show a whole bunch of answers I've posted because I didn't like the other answers.

Jasper Loy

I will try to brush my teeth more often, sorry to disappoint everyone.

MrHen

Anything I could have just upvoted to get the question off the list I already voted on

When I run the query, I see 67 and a large chunk of them I dealt with this week or are the actual hard Unanswered questions. :P

But you can save the query for future use.

I find it quite helpful

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy clearing your mouth of debris is important so that you don't get cavities and your breath isn't honking

MrHen

18:44

It automatically filters out questions you've already answered.

Jasper Loy

@MattЭллен I have no cavities and my breath is alright I think.

Johan Larsson

@JasperLoy just apply a pinch of ocd on 'em but not to much morning & evening > profit

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy do you get regular dental check up?

Jasper Loy

@MattЭллен Not checked for many years, but no problems whatsoever.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy then you don't know! No pain != no cavities. but anyway. do as you please. it's no skin off my nose.

Johan Larsson

18:46

►

never going to stop spamming it on fridays

MrHen

@MattЭллен Unless he breathes on you.

Matt Эллен

@MrHen well, yeah ... :D

Jasper Loy

Has @Kit run away from my teeth?

Matt Эллен

I must run away! but I'll be back

KitFox

No, I'm just doing stuff until quitting time.

Jasper Loy

18:49

It's Friesday!

MrHen

@KitFox I'm stuck installing a bunch of crap on this machine. :(

KitFox

Awww.

I'm trying to figure out how to mash this crazy metadata into Oracle.

And thinking maybe I ought to mash it into Mongo instead.

MrHen

@KitFox Meh. db details are details. :)

CSV for the win!

(I am totally kidding.)

KitFox

Well, it's all funky weirdness. Something that actually would be suited to a non-relational db, except that it was collected in this way.

MrHen

@KitFox Well, that's part of why I kept pestering you with "how are you going to use this?"

;)

KitFox

18:55

Well, I didn't know until I got here.

Which should have been obvious.

MrHen

Yeah, it's the curse of this kind of task.

But if the crawler didn't take too long to run, you can always run it again.

KitFox

So I would like to put all the page metadata into a format I can regex.

Or something.

How shall I do that, O wise one?

MrHen

What's some example metadata?

KitFox

Actual or field names?

aedia λ

If you were me, where would you have left your fingerless gloves?

Johan Larsson

18:57

in the fridge

aedia λ

I thought I last wore them up here or down on the couch playing xbox but they are missing

KitFox

They are under the couch.

The cat got to them.

Johan Larsson

I put my calculator in the fridge once while at uni, took a while to find it

aedia λ

@KitFox Roomba, maybe.

MrHen

@KitFox Field names is a start.

KitFox

18:58

Wait, maybe you took them off in the bathroom.

MrHen

I'm still not entirely sure what this data looks like

aedia λ

I do put things in the fridge unexpectedly...

@KitFox Oh that's a really good guess. Lemme look.

KitFox

@MrHen URL,Title,"","abstract","access","Access","apple-itunes-app","apple-mobile-web-a‌pp-capable","apple-mobile-web-app-status-bar-style","author","AUTHOR","bepress_ci‌tation_abstract_html_url","bepress_citation_author","bepress_citation_date","bepr‌ess_citation_firstpage","bepress_citation_online_date","bepress_citation_publishe‌r",

MrHen

lol, ""

tsk tsk

KitFox

I know.

aedia λ

18:59

On my way down to check the downstairs bathroom I took another look by the couch just in case and I found them!

KitFox

It wasn't me.

@aediaλ Told you.

aedia λ

I left black gloves on the black tv stand and it was like they vanished.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…