English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Kit

00:16

5 hours ago, by Alain Pannetier

Do you watch your bed once you've made love on your TV?

@AlainPannetier Apparently not.

;)

Spare Oom

00:27

@Martha Not interesting enough? english.stackexchange.com/questions/30023/…

Martha

@SpareOom It's interesting, but I don't know the answer.

Spare Oom

lol ok

Spare Oom

00:43

Is it unusual for there to be nothing on the list for unanswered questions?

Martha

Not on EL&U. Other SE sites almost never go below a full page of unanswered questions. Stackoverflow, for example, has over 10,000 unanswered questions.

For EL&U, however, it's unusual to have more than a handful of unanswered questions.

Spare Oom

00:59

I have another question but I don't know if it's too stupid. XP Can I bounce it off you guys?

Regarding a couple of varieties of an idiom: getting on one's nerves and getting on one's last nerve, is one preferred over another in different locations? And which nerve is supposed to be the last one anyway? I had a friend who said getting on my third nerve.

Robusto

Heyaz.

Spare Oom

Hey

Robusto

@Cerberus: Wake up, little doggy[ies].

Martha

That sounds like it could be a good question for the site. (I like the "third nerve" variation, I'll have to try to remember it.)

Spare Oom

She's the only one I ever heard use it. Personally the third nerve seems like it would be way early in the chain of being irritated. :)

Robusto

01:12

@Martha: 3rd Nerve Variation? Sounds like a Scriabin piece ...

Spare Oom

Have we a room of musicians here?

Martha

@Robusto I'm laughing too hard to thwack you. :D

Robusto

Hehehe ... my secret strategy. It works!

Looks like the "neither ... nor" question got multi-collidered.

Martha

So did my küszöbgörcs question, but it's lower down - you need scroll to see it.

Robusto

I'm not even going to try to pretend I understand wtf küszöbgörcs is.

Martha

01:19

13

Q: Is there an English phrase for an inability to actually *leave* already?

There is a Hungarian expression, küszöbgörcs, which literally means "threshold-cramp", and is used to describe that long conversation you have in the entryway, with all the guests awkwardly holding their coats and purses, and every so often somebody says something like "Ok, we really have to leav...

Spare Oom

I think it was well explained. I wonder if it's a symptom of OCD.

The tendency, I mean.

Martha

If it is, then the entire nation of Hungary has mental health issues. (Well, ok, maybe we do, but anyway.)

Robusto

@Martha — Nah, not the entire nation. Just you and your sis.

Martha

More like my mom and dad. And all of their friends. And all of my aunts and uncles. Not so much my cousins, though.

Cerberus

Hai.

What, all Hungarians have mental-health problems?

Martha

01:23

My cousin Zsolti, for example, has the opposite of küszöbgörcs: if he announces he's leaving, you'd better not blink, because you'll miss him.

@Cerberus Well, yeah. We speak Hungarian, for heaven's sake. Isn't that a mental health issue all on its own? :D

Cerberus

Aww... no doubt it is a sane language, if one just takes the time to learn it.

The whole world is mad, and I'm an aeroplane.

Martha

It's a very sane language. Too sane. It's like whoever invented it was seriously compensating for something.

Robusto

@Martha: I added my own 2¢ to your question.

@Martha — Is Zsolti similar to Solti (in Georg Solti, the famous conductor)?

Cerberus

@Martha Is that like people who MUST have their house tidy and organized?

Spare Oom

Hi

Martha

01:28

Yes and no. The placename Solt derives from the same old personal name that was revived as Zsolt. However, the -i in Solti is the locative suffix, while the -i in Zsolti is a diminutive.

Cerberus

Hey!

An -i for locative?

Latin has it too!

Odd.

Robusto

@Cerberus — Dogs have an eye (or six) for the locative.

Martha

@Cerberus Does it? The only Latin locative I'm familiar with is de + placename.

Cerberus

Nah, the other five eyes are for nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, and ablative, the locative being the sixth case!

De is not locative in Latin?

Spare Oom

@Martha: What tags do you think the "nerves" question needs other than idiom and phrase?

Cerberus

01:30

De = from

Robusto

@Cerberus Hey, what about vocative! Oh, I guess the mouths handle that one ...

Cerberus

Locative = in/at

Hmm vocative is generally not considered a separate case... it is a case, in a way, but it isn't in any place in the regular order of cases.

Robusto

@Cerberus — I thought it described motion towards something.

Martha

In onomastics, "locative" is used for any name phrase that stems from a placename.

Cerberus

@Robusto Nope.

@Martha Oh! I think we have a name for that too. But I forgot.

Robusto

01:32

Well, I don't remember my Latin very well then. I just remember I hated all the cases. With a passion.

Cerberus

Yes, toponym(ic).

Martha

That's used too.

Cerberus

@Robusto Aww... if you will just memorize these paradigms, it will all be easy!

@Martha Do those two mean different things in onomastics?

Robusto

@Cerberus — The paradigms ... they cover regular and irregular verbs, do they?

Cerberus

@Robusto Yes, or nouns or adjectives.

Martha

01:33

@Cerberus I don't actually know. That'd be a question for my sister, but she rarely comes by here anymore.

Cerberus

OK.

Martha

@SpareOom Those tags should be enough to get you started. Others can always edit to add other tags.

Spare Oom

@Martha thanks.

Cerberus

Hey, I have a question.

Martha

... which is?

Cerberus

01:38

If you read "historical injustice", what could it mean besides an event that involved unjust treatment of someone in the past?

Wow that was badly phrased.

Reading "historical injustice", all I can think of is something like the Armenian genocide; but Habermas uses it to mean "contrary to what actually happened in the past", as in "it doesn't do justice to history".

Martha

I'm with you on that one. I mean, I can sorta-kinda see where Habermas is coming from, but that's definitely not how I would interpret the phrase.

Spare Oom

as an injustice to the reporting of history as opposed to an injustice in history?

Cerberus

@SpareOom Exactly.

@Martha Okay, thanks, that means I might not be crazy!

Martha

@Cerberus But we've already established that I'm crazy, so my agreeing with you implies... well, you do the math.

Cerberus

Oh noes....

> “Every general theory of justification remains peculiarly abstract in relation to the historical forms of legitimate domination. … Is there an alternative to this historical injustice of general theories, on the one hand, and the standardlessness of mere historical understanding, on the other?”

Robusto

01:46

What's the problem with that?

Martha

Ew. Too many big words all piled together.

2

Cerberus

A friend asked how I would interpret this quote. I hate his language.

@Martha Agreed.

@Robusto Do you not find his usage of "historical injustice" odd?

It was probably triggered by "justification".

Robusto

@Cerberus — Careful, we're in a Habermasian public sphere here, so anything we say can and will effect change.

Cerberus

Oh God, that... I remember reading about that sphere thing. What was it again?

Robusto

[Whispering] Don't tell anybody!

Public sphere

The public sphere is an area in social life where individuals can come together to freely discuss and identify societal problems, and through that discussion influence political action. It is "a discursive space in which individuals and groups congregate to discuss matters of mutual interest and, where possible, to reach a common judgment." See also: G. T. Goodnight, "The Personal, Technical, and Public Spheres of Argument." Journal of the American Forensics Association. (1982) 18:214-227. The public sphere can be seen as "a theater in modern societies in which political participation is...

Cerberus

01:53

Hmm.

Is that all it is?

Test:

Robusto

What's your problem, Hündchen?

Cerberus

Too bad chat won't jump to sections in Wiki.

Robusto

@Cerberus — I never said it was anything special. Just not to tell anybody.

Cerberus

Right, right...

Martha

I think you're thinking of the monkeysphere, @Cerberus

Cerberus

01:56

So our discussions will change the world?

Robusto

@Cerberus — They already have.

Cerberus

@Martha Nice and true.

Robusto

Also, my dreams have already changed the world. Read Ursula K. LeGuin's The Lathe of Heaven for a description of "effective dreaming" ...

Cerberus

@Martha Though I must say we do care for a wounded stranger; just as long as there isn't a sea of them all at once. And even then we might care about the plight of whichever ones we happen to look at.

Effective dreaming... that sounds like a manager-like self-help book?

Robusto

The Lathe of Heaven

The Lathe of Heaven is a 1971 science fiction novel by Ursula K. Le Guin. The plot revolves around a character whose dreams alter reality. The story was first serialized in the American science fiction magazine Amazing Stories. The novel received nominations for the 1972 Hugo and the 1971 Nebula Award, and won the Locus Award for Best Novel in 1972. Two television film adaptations have been released: the acclaimed PBS production, The Lathe of Heaven (1980); and Lathe of Heaven (2002), a remake produced by the A&E Network. Title The title is taken from the writings of Chuang Tzu — spe...

Spare Oom

02:01

@Robusto I didn't remember that was a book, but there was a movie based on it years ago.

Robusto

The book is much better.

Spare Oom

I'll have to read it.

Robusto

"To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment. Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven." — Chuang Tzu

Spare Oom

Yes, they almost always are!

@Robusto I didn't realize she wrote sci-fi. I thought it was all fantasy.

Or would that be considered fantasy? There can be an overlap, I guess.

Though Hugo award would be for sci-fi.

Robusto

@SpareOom — There is a fine line, but yeah, she wrote science fiction. Possibly her best novel, The Dispossessed is straight sci-fi, and so is The Left Hand of Darkness.

Spare Oom

02:07

I practically gave up on sci-fi for years, when everything seemed to go the way of fantasy.

I was a Hal Clement fan, but he quit writing for a long time.

Martha

What's wrong with fantasy?

Spare Oom

Nothing if they're not all the same.

Robusto

Fantasy is the new reality.

Spare Oom

I got stuck on a series that never ended.

Robusto

@SpareOom — The Song of Ice and Fire?

Spare Oom

02:09

Ok, could you recommend some good fantasy books then?

Martha

My favorite book is Bujold's The Curse of Chalion. She usually writes science fiction (Vorkosigan), but Chalion is definitely fantasy.

@Robusto Ew!!! Gross!! (I hate Martin's writing. No, that's not strong enough. I despise, detest, and abhor everything he's ever written.)

Robusto

The last really good sci-fi novel I read was Vernor Vinge's A Fire On The Deep

Spare Oom

Thank you for the suggestions @Martha and @Robusto

@Robusto I read that one. It was great!

I couldn't put it down.

Robusto

@Martha — I kinda like it, myself.

Martha

And besides, @SpareOom, isn't your handle based on Narnia - a fantasy work if there ever was one?

Spare Oom

02:11

Indeed!

Robusto

@Martha — I kinda like it, myself.

WTF, I keep getting these double posts telling me to retry.

Spare Oom

I never said I didn't like fantasy, just the plethora of junk that came out when I was looking for sci-fi.

@Robusto I get the same thing.

Martha

Repeating yourself isn't going to make me like Martin any more, you know.

:þ

Robusto

I thought "Oom" was what MMORPG gamers said when they were "Out Of Mana" ...

Spare Oom

Who's Martin?

Cerberus

02:13

What's so bad about Martin? I think read a book or two by him long ago.

Martha

@SpareOom George R. R. Martin.

Spare Oom

C. S. Lewis tried his hand at Sci-fi as well, you may know @Martha

Robusto

amazon.com/George-Martins-Thrones-4-Book-Boxed/dp/0345529057/…

Cerberus

Oh, that.

Spare Oom

@Robusto Oh, you forgot to mention the author earlier. haha

Cerberus

02:15

Hey I got the "retry" too!

Martha

@SpareOom Yes, I tried to read those once, but the bad science was just too distracting.

Cerberus

@Martha: Why do you dislike Martin?

And does the comparison to Tolkien make sense?

Spare Oom

@Martha When I read them, science wasn't as advanced as it is now, I'm sure.

Martha

He seems to revel in tricking his readers. He'll start off making a character likeable, and then just as you start getting interested/invested, he'll totally change the character to make him utterly detestable. Or the other way around.

Robusto

@Martha — I disagree. I think his characters are simply more complicated. Also they have libidos, which Tolkien's characters never did.

Martha

02:19

And it's not character development, either: it's simply that he decides, "Ok, time to make you like [insert name here]", and then said character will start acting completely differently than he had been - as if Martin had substituted actors halfway along.

Robusto

@Martha — Again, I disagree.

Martha

Also, he never finishes storylines within a book. (Another symptom of the "let's trick the reader" problem.)

Robusto

@Martha — Well, I will give you that. Also, sometimes it seems too much of the action happens off stage.

Cerberus

@Martha Hmm that doesn't sound good. But Robusto appears to discern proper development from good to bad character...

How does he not finish it?

Robusto

But I think the characters are interesting and weirdly complicated. But I totally dig the character of the dwarf, Tyrion Lannister.

Cerberus

02:21

The story ends while the two nemeses are still ogling one another from their castles?

Robusto

@Cerberus — He wants you to read the next book, so he leaves cliffhangers.

Spare Oom

I got hooked on Piers Anthony's Xanth Series jimloy.com/books/xanth.htm in college partly for the puns, but they eventually started getting old.

Cerberus

Ohh... I do hate that.

Well, it's ok as long as the next book is within grabbing distance.

Even so, it is a cheap ploy.

Martha

His main purpose seems to be to play with your expectations. He will do anything to achieve that. Including totally breaking the narrative. "Here, lemme get this character to a life-and-death moment, and then end the chapter. And then forget about this storyline until the next book."

Cerberus

Even so, it is a cheap ploy.

Man, this "try again" thing is annoying as hell.

2

Man, this "try again" thing is annoying as hell.

Robusto

02:23

But it's really not bad. Fun reading about fantasy characters who behave like real people: weird, twisted, over-sexed, evil-for-the-hell-of-it, violent and weak-willed — all of that. Just like reality, only with the added advantage of being able to put it down when it's too much.

Martha

@Cerberus Just hit "cancel".

Spare Oom

@Martha He leaves threads unfinished? That's a major no-no in writing, isn't it?

Cerberus

@Martha Oh that is really annoying. Like soap-operas.

@Martha Eh, most of the time when I see it twice it appears only once when I click "retry", but not always. Weird.

Martha

@Robusto In my experience, real people are not evil for the hell of it.

Cerberus

@Martha Eh, most of the time when I see it twice it appears only once when I click "retry", but not always. Weird.

Robusto

02:24

@Cerberus — It is the way of the world. I just finished Season 3 of Breaking Bad and it leaves you dangling over an enormous cliff. But I have to say it is the best TV series I have ever seen. Evah.

Crap. I hit cancel and this time it deleted my post!

Spare Oom

@Robusto Tolkien did the same with his trilogy, didn't he?

Robusto

Crap. I hit cancel and this time it deleted my post!

Cerberus

@Robusto I see that that can be good, yeah. Jack Vance is good at that too, though his evil characters aren't meant to be realistic, but just fun.

Robusto

@SpareOom — Of course.

Haha, now it brought both of those posts back! Raised from the dead! As twins!

Spare Oom

@Robusto However, I heard that he intended it as one book, but the publisher made him split it up. Too lazy to check the facts though.

Cerberus

02:27

Yeah, the evil fantasies of our cliff-hanging chat...

@SpareOom Sounds likely.

Robusto

@SpareOom — Wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

Martha

A cliffhanger is one thing. Leaving every plot thread unresolved is not a cliffhanger, it's just bad writing.

Robusto

Gotta go to bed. TTYL.

@SpareOom — Wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

Spare Oom

@Robusto ciao

@Martha Definitely!

Martha

Good night!

Cerberus

02:29

Bye Rob!

@SpareOom Sounds likely.

I gotta go to bed as well.

Spare Oom

@Cerberus Still? lol

Martha

Ok, these doubled posts are chasing me away, too.

See y'all later!

Spare Oom

Good night then.

Aw.

Cerberus

@SpareOom "Try again"!

Sorry, OOm.

Happy trying again!

Spare Oom

@Cerberus Just once is fine. Thanks. ;)

Cerberus

02:31

Bye Martha!

Heh.

Spare Oom

Good night @Martha

Cerberus

Bai!

Spare Oom

I think I repeated myself without the prompt.

You can always delete the repeated line, can't you?

Oh, I think I'm talking to myself....

Sarawut Positwinyu

03:28

What we talk here, this is my first time posting message on this.

Jez

08:16

morning

Alenanno

09:52

0

Q: Identifying the literary technique

I was wondering if there is a literary technique in the following quote: "Let us be sacrificers but not butchers"

literary-techniques

@RegDwight should I vote to migrate it?

to me it belongs there

RegDwight

I have no idea if it belongs there any more than it belongs here.

I mean, the question is rather vague.

It's not clear what the OP is getting at.

At all.

Alenanno

Uhm

RegDwight

You can't just post a random sentence and ask, is there something in there. For me, that's a NARQ.

Robusto

@Cerberus: Doggy is still up?

Alenanno

NARQ?

RegDwight

10:06

Not a real question.

Robusto

Not A Real Question.

Jinx!

RegDwight

Jinx.

Meta-jinx.

Robusto

Double Jinx

RegDwight

Meta-double jinx.

Robusto

Double-meta jinx.

Double-meta inverse jinx.

RegDwight

10:07

Okay, okay, here's your cokefee.

Robusto

Double-meta chiastic jinx transposed.

RegDwight

Anyhows, back to that question.

You can always ask, "what is this literary technique called", but then it should be obvious from your description or examples what literary technique you actually mean.

But you can't just ask, is there any literary technique in this random sentence?

Robusto

The obvious snarky answer would be to comment, "Here's a link to a compendium of literary techniques. You'll find it in there somewhere."

RegDwight

Right, and that link would be http://chat.stackexchange.com/users/1460/.

Robusto

But I am too far above sarcasm and snarkiness to make such a reply.

@RegDwight Why does that link have my number of badges wrong?

Jez

10:12

meta-jinx-infinity-plus-however-many-you-add-plus-one

ahem

Robusto

Oh, that's for SO, not EL&U.

But why would they aggregate rep scores from all over, yet show only badges from one?

I mean, we're talking apples and oranges here:

Or at least silvers and bronzes, etc.

Jez

People's SEN accounts are held together with a combination of elastic bands, superglue, and stickytape.

Robusto

@RegDwight — You will notice even I steadfastly abstained from answering that question.

RegDwight

Stupid Ubuntu, had to relog.

Sup?

Ah, I see.

@Robusto Those are your badges on SO.

It only shows badges from your "main" account.

Robusto

11 mins ago, by Robusto

Oh, that's for SO, not EL&U.

RegDwight

10:25

Still catching up.

Robusto

10 mins ago, by Robusto

But why would they aggregate rep scores from all over, yet show only badges from one?

RegDwight

To confuse you!

Robusto

Job well done!

RegDwight

Mission accomplished!

I was wondering if there is a literary technique in the following quote: "Mission accomplished!"

Robusto

They have not yet begun to confuse me!

@RegDwight — In the case of the George W. Bush banner on the aircraft carrier, i would call it prolepsis. Also hubris.

RegDwight

10:26

Okay, thanks.

Just one more question, then.

2 mins ago, by Robusto

11 mins ago, by Robusto

Oh, that's for SO, not EL&U.

Is that a correctio or a restrictio?

Robusto

It's a connectio.

RegDwight

Haha, wrong, gotcha.

It's a litotes!

Robusto

No, it's an anagram. You meant to say "toilets" ...

RegDwight

Wow. Get out of my head.

Robusto

OK. Laterz.

RegDwight

10:28

You even got the language and the grammatical number right.

Kit

11:26

Morning!

RegDwight

Hello fennec.

Kit

Hello viscacha.

What excitement have I missed this morning?

RegDwight

You have missed The Exciting Robusto excitingly compare apples to oranges. Again.

Kit

Right. I saw that. It caught my eye, it was so exciting.

Now I'm excited.

Perhaps I should immediately return home and self-flagellate.

@Robusto Ham and Eggs has thrown down his mitten. You better get in there.

1

Q: Rhetorical device in Julius Caesar

I thrice presented him a kingly crown/ which he did thrice refuse" Just wondering what the rhetorical technique is in that phrase.

rhetoric

RegDwight

11:42

@Kit Wait, when did you say "data is"?

Kit

@RegDwight You remembered. How sweet.

RegDwight

I looked up in the 415692nd tab. How salty.

Kit

Tab much?

RegDwight

Many, even.

Kit

Is "throwing down his mitten" insulting enough?

RegDwight

11:44

It depends.

Kit

@RegDwight "Tab" as a verb in this case.

RegDwight

@Kit I know.

I was just making conversation.

Kit

Yes. Ok. Sorry. I think I may have become more contentious of late.

RegDwight

Unpossible.

Kit

Um. You think I'm MAX(contentious) already?

RegDwight

11:46

2 mins ago, by RegDwight

It depends.

Gosh, those Turing tests are sure hard to pass.

Kit

Or that it is not possible to reach that limit?

RegDwight

Why do you ask whether it is not possible to reach that limit?

Kit

Frig. Turing. Yup.

@RegDwight You're right, that does not compute.

RegDwight

So you're saying that that does not compute.

Interesting.

The weather here is nice.

Kit

I think you're supposed to follow it with "Tell me how you feel about your mother."

RegDwight

11:48

Why do you think I am supposed to follow it... ah, screw it.

Kit

I've had two users in the last two days get on my third nerve.

RegDwight

Wow, that's quite a number of nerves you got.

Kit

@RegDwight I thought you were using Freudian technique. Or were you going to ask me about a turtle on its back?

RegDwight

May 13 at 19:44, by RegDwight

It's turtles all the way down.

Kit

Yeah, it's a new one, courtesy of SpareOom.

RegDwight

11:50

May 13 at 19:50, by Alain Pannetier

Kit

Look, turtles!

Or is that a tortoise?

RegDwight

Aaaaall the way down, no less.

Kit

Frig. What is wrong with me, Reg?

RegDwight

10

A: Do Americans use the world 'turtle' as a generic word to mean 'tortoise'?

It all depends on how technical you want to be. (I am writing as the spouse of a nationally recognized expert on wild turtles, tortoises and terrapins in the US) In the US there are 50 species of "chelonians" excluding sea turtles. Among experts they are identified by strict Latin taxonimic na...

Kit

There's a reference to Alice in Wonderland in that thread. I love that book.

I don't want to work today.

RegDwight

11:54

Whaddayamean, today?

Kit

OK, especially today.

I could be giving a nice answer to the baseball metaphors for sex question.

RegDwight

But aren't you with Fennec Industries today? And ain't that a nice place to work? It sure sounds like a nice place to work!

Kit

☺ Maybe it's not that bad.

You are a very cheery viscacha.

Uh oh. Do foxes and viscacha get along?

RegDwight

Yo viscacha so fat, ain't afraid of no tiny fennecs.

Kit

Sweet.

Fennec is such a funny looking word. I keep thinking of pfennig when I see it.

RegDwight

11:58

And I keep thinking of Eldros' avatar when I see pfennig.

Eldros, Bretten, Germany

2k 2 17

single-word-requests word-choice grammar meaning verbs etymology sentence

Kit

Is that what a pfennig looks like?

RegDwight

Kit

Huh. Interesting.

RegDwight

So, kinda like, absolutely not, but I still can't help but think of it.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…