English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Martha

14:00

See y'all later. Maybe.

Kit

Feel better @Martha! Sending you kisses and hugs!

Robusto

Laterz.

RegDwight

Mahlzeit.

Robusto

Here's something weird. I got an upvote on an old question earlier this morning, then a down vote on the same question. From like 3 months ago. I wonder why the sudden activity there.

0

A: Worshippers of the rising sun

It's possible your English teacher was confusing "sun" with "son": a "rising son" is a young man who is on his way up in the world. "Rising sun" on the other hand, refers to morning, and is usually used to refer to Japan (日本 nippon meaning "sun origin") whose term for "rising sun" is kyokujitsu ...

Jez

Is there a way to put URL links in chatroom topics but use custom link text?

RegDwight

14:03

@Robusto Because it got bumped to the front page?

Kit

@Jez You mean, like this?

Jez

yeah

RegDwight

There's a bounty and two new answers.

Kit

Use square brackets around the text and enclose the link in parentheses after the closing square bracket.

There might be a different way, but if so, I don't know it.

RegDwight

Mar 11 at 22:52, by RegDwight

@Billare [Link text](URL).

Jez

14:05

@Kit that works in a chat msg but apparently not in the room topic

RegDwight

Ah.

Kit

Oh. The room topic. Sorry, I wasn't paying attention, I guess.

I don't know.

RegDwight

@Jez I've tried out a few things in the sandbox, nothing seems to work.

Jez

mmm

RegDwight

Sandbox

Where you can play with chat features (except flagging) and ch...

2

Kit

14:11

@aedia Good morning, IPU!

aedia

Good morning!

Kit

I hope I don't offend you, but I've got to change this unicorn.

aedia

I'm barely awake. More coffee required.

Kit

It keeps staring at me.

RegDwight

Unicorns are not subject to change.

BTW, @Kit, it keeps staring at everyone else, too. You're not that special.

Kit

14:13

@RegDwight The hell they isn't.

aedia

@Kit It will still be staring. You just won't be able to see it.

Kit

@RegDwight Not that crazy.

@aedia Why? Why do you have to do that to me?

RegDwight

Somewhere in the universe a unicorn is staring.

Robusto

@RegDwight — It's not a sandbox on the order of, say, GTA4 or Just Cause 2 though.

RegDwight

It's not called UNIverse for no reason.

Kit

14:15

@RegDwight THWACK!

RegDwight

@Robusto I dunno, I haven't unlock that many features yet.

Kit

Quantum singularity.

RegDwight

@Kit How is THAT a thwack?

Kit

@RegDwight Terrible. Corny. Awful.

RegDwight

For little Buddha's sake, this is a language site. Surely mentioning morphemes must be allowed here?

Kit

14:15

@Robusto GTA4 has a sandbox?

Robusto

GTA4 is a sandbox.

That's a type of game. You know, first-person shooter, RPG, RTS, sandbox ...

Kit

@RegDwight The juxtaposition of two words with the same leading morpheme in order to produce a comic effect is strictly disallowed and imminently thwackable.

RegDwight

Says an UNIdentified UNIcorn?

Jez

"Focus: where the sons raise meat."

haha nice

Kit

@RegDwight Single toothed unicorn?

RegDwight

14:18

@Kit That was a carefully laid trap, to check whether you would thwack that even though it's not thwackable according to your own rule.

You pass the test.

Kit

@Robusto I didn't know that GTA4 was a sandbox game. So like Little Big Planet is a sandbox game, right?

RegDwight

Also, thwack!

Kit

@RegDwight Wha--?

aedia

@Kit I didn't even know sandbox was a game genre.

Robusto

Here's what all those unicorns really are:

►

Kit

14:19

@aedia Well, I don't think I would have used it this way, but I can see how it might be applied as a genre.

RegDwight

@Kit If you had thwacked it, I would have pointed out that it's not the same leading morpheme. But you haven't, so I haven't.

Kit

@RegDwight But you thwacked me?

RegDwight

Ah.

Yes.

According to your own rule.

Kit

Because I -- splutter, splutter. OK, you got me good.

Effin' rodentia.

RegDwight

I am but one rodent.

aedia

14:23

@Robusto I am not! I've got two eyes. Or four, if you want to poke fun.

RegDwight

Pluralis majestatis should be reserved for special occasions.

Kit

@RegDwight Of order rodentia.

I was making a sweeping generalization.

Robusto

@aedia — Yet you're not denying you eat people.

Kit

@aedia Me too.

@Robusto Me neither.

aedia

@Robusto Purple people.

RegDwight

14:24

Feb 8 at 15:59, by Robusto

And remember: all generalizations are false.

aedia

@Robusto Haven't had a chance to test it.

Kit

@Robusto And we fly.

Robusto

@RegDwight — I made no generalization, though if I had it would have been false.

RegDwight

@Robusto Why is that video not not available in my country? I sure wish it was!

@Robusto Yeah, yeah, ABBA, yada yada.

Robusto

Well, you should move to a non-backward country, as we've discussed before.

RegDwight

14:27

We've only discussed moving to a country where all videos are available, not to one where other videos than the ones not available in my current country are not available.

Kit

Oh, avatar clash. Head hurts. Shape shifting sucks.

Robusto

@RegDwight — All videos are available in my backyard. All you need is a wifi-ready device and a password.

RegDwight

But I do not want that video to be available.

9 mins ago, by RegDwight

@Robusto Why is that video not not available in my country? I sure wish it was!

Robusto

@RegDwight — Then quit whining about it not being available.

RegDwight

Mar 7 at 18:22, by RegDwight

Back to reading comprehension class for you.

Kit

14:38

@Robusto He's using a double negative for emphasis.

Robusto

@RegDwight — At least some of the responsibility for clear communication is incumbent on the writer. And, sadly, you have failed.

@Kit — It's an old Commie trick. Pay him no mind.

RegDwight

Hahaha.

And not being able to admit own fault is an old US trick.

Robusto

@RegDwight — I think you misspelled USSR.

RegDwight

But hey, I sure can talk at you like at a three-year old.

I video see. I do not want.

Is that clear enough of a communication?

Robusto

You never try so hard as when you are losing an argument.

RegDwight

14:42

Same old US trick.

aedia

I come back from getting coffee and @RegDwight has turned into a toddler? What happened?

RegDwight

I write stuff. Robusto not understand.

He says my fault.

He clearly wrong.

Robusto

@aedia — He was always a toddler. He just hid it well sometimes.

RegDwight

We all were toddlers.

aedia

@RegDwight, @Robusto, play nice. You'll each get a turn to not watch the video.

RegDwight

14:50

Can't wait for mine.

Jez

to not watch = split infinitive

i wouldn't usually say but it is English...

RegDwight

Um, what?

aedia

@Jez To boldly split infinitives is my favorite hobby!

Jez

you need to carefully think about that

RegDwight

18

A: Are split infinitives grammatically incorrect, or are they valid constructs?

The only thing that should be avoided is awkwardness. Putting adverbial phrases between the infinitive complementizer to and the infinitive can sometimes be awkward, but it is certainly never ungrammatical or “invalid”. Even the most conservative and staunchest prescriptivist commenters admit tha...

Robusto

14:59

@RegDwight — Word.

Kit

15:21

There. That's better.

z7sg

2

Q: Suggestion for English phrase dictionary?

I am not native English guy. One of the problem when I learn English is that I don't understand phrases, the phrase used cannot be found in the dictionary, which only contains single word. Examples: - blow up - carry on - screw up Sometimes I encounter such phrase which I don't und...

This is just a user error. Not a CW. In my unhumble opinion.

@Kit Are you a dingo now?

Kit

Nope.

Close though. Vulpes, not Canis.

z7sg

Aww a sand fox

Vulpes rueppellii

Or maybe one of these:

Definitely won't pour water on that.

Kit

Closer. Vulpes zerda. Fennec fox.

Only because I liked it better than the Kit fox.

Yes, I think your picture is a fennec.

aedia

@z7sg AWWWWWWWWH!

@Kit Wasn't Fennec a Mozilla build?

Kit

15:28

@aedia Maybe. Pre-firefox?

aedia

Maybe it's where Firefox got its name. Now I'll have to look that up.

Firefox for mobile

Firefox for mobile (codenamed Fennec) is the name of the build of the Mozilla Firefox web browser for devices such as mobile phones and personal digital assistants (PDAs). Firefox for mobile versions use the same Gecko layout engine as their Firefox counterparts. For example, version 1.0 used the same engine as Firefox 3.6, and the next release, 4.0, shared core code with Firefox 4.0. Its features include tabbed browsing, password manager, location-aware browsing, and the ability to synchronize with the user's computer Firefox browser using Firefox Sync. The user interface is complete...

I knew I'd heard it somewhere. Firefoxes are the red pandas, though. Duh. Need more coffee.

Jez

calling Fennec 'Firefox for Mobile' is like renaming Froogle to Google. decisions made by tedious lawyers in suits.

they probably suck the colour out of their lives. literally. their lives are like 1960s TV.

Kit

Fennec foxes are the smallest in the world. I think it makes sense to use it for a mobile app that has a "fox" in it.

z7sg

How many does it taek to make a hat?

Kit

@z7sg Depends on the size of your head.

Effing charts! I hate charts!

aedia

15:38

I've finished all my charts!

Now I have to work on a form. I hate forms too.

Kit

@aedia I'll take forms over charts any day.

I don't suppose you used Visual studio chart controls?

aedia

@Kit Not this one, you wouldn't. I have to use Adobe LiveCycle. I now despise it.

Kit

@aedia Barf.

aedia

@Kit Nope. My last charts were a one-time set I had to painstakingly tease out of Excel.

Kit

@aedia Also barf.

aedia

15:46

Indeed.

Robusto

0

Q: "if it were possible" vs "if it was possible"

" If it were possible, and it were possible to do..." that sounds wrong, shouldn't we have was after it?

grammar verbs

This is definitely a dupe, but it won't let me link the dupe in the close vote box.

There. Finally it let me link.

aedia

I found another one that had, like, 20 related questions. I guess people have this question a lot. We should disappear the subjunctive already and be done with it!

Kit

If we were to drop the subjunctive, what we would use instead?

aedia

Just past, I guess? If we dropped the subjunctive, I wouldn't miss it.

Kit

I was being sneaky there. You see? I'm in a mood today. Haha?

z7sg

16:03

LMFAO :D

aedia

@Kit groans

Jez

@aedia I think it's important that the subjunctive IS retained.

Kit

Lunch time!

TTFN.

z7sg

Bon appetit!

Jez

too often an English speaker fails to understand the importance that thon UNDERSTANDS the subjunctive

Robusto

16:05

I think it's important that the subjunctive be retained. ;=)

Jez

no. indicitave was intended there :-) it IS retained.

Robusto

The subjunctive puts me in an iffy mood.

Kit

@Robusto thwack

I haven't actually left yet.

z7sg

Subjunctive seems the correct mood there.

Kit

@Jez I thought thon was a generic gender-neutral pronoun. How does it work in that sentence?

Crap. Now I'm leaving.

Jez

16:10

@Kit thon, as in 'the speaker'

aedia

@Kit See ya!

►

z7sg

@aedia THWACK! @Jez THWACK! @Kit THWACK! @z7sg THWACK! @Robusto THWACK!

aedia

@z7sg You thwacked yourself? Masochistic today, huh.

z7sg

It didn't seem right thwacking all of you guys and just sitting there unthwacked

Maybe that makes me a masochist

Kit

17:45

@RegDwight english.stackexchange.com/questions/30102/does-it-sound-correct

It's a translation request, so I think it's off topic, but I thought you might be able to help since it's Russian to English.

Jez

trans requests should be ontopic.

Kit

@Jez But they aren't, are they? From the FAQ: But please, don’t ask any questions about these topics. They are out of scope for this site. ... Languages other than English (including translation)

Alenanno

It depends on the question

Questions like "Translate this for me" are off topic

but questions like "I translated this like this, is it correct?" aren't that clearly off topic in my opinion

Kit

0

Q: Does it sound correct?

I need to translate my thesis project theme from Russian to English. So I make the follow: "Development of the chair site of the methodological support with a detailed development of the storage subsystem". Is it right? Chair means my university department. Methodological support means that the...

translation correction

I wasn't sure about it, so I didn't vote to close it. There seems to be some word choice relevancy, maybe some grammatical structures...can't say for sure.

Alenanno

It's not that clear

I mean, the question

Jez

17:53

@Kit i mean the current policy is a shame.

Kit

@Alenanno I agree.

Alenanno

@Jez what do you mean?

Jez

translation to English should be ontopic

there's nowhere else for such questions to go

Alenanno

This site is not about translations

It's about discussing English and its usage

Certainly not to provide free translations to people that will ask that one question and then disappear :P

Jez

as someone who likes english i think that's a shame

i'd like somewhere for people to be able to get good translations to english

it would help learners if they could ask for translations of tricky phrases

Kit

18:01

Maybe you should support the StackExchange Translations site.

Alenanno

Not all questions about translations are off topic... If you find problem with something specific, you can ask it

Jez

yeah, that's way too general

i'd say translations to english are much more appropriate here

you already have English speakers hanging out

Kit

56

Translation

Proposed Q&A site for people trying to translate difficult words or expressions.

Currently in definition.

Jez

too general. many people who would potentially be able to translate something to English just won't visit there.

there will be a million languages to sift through that you don't know

I won't visit there

Alenanno

But you see, if they allowed questions about translations here, it would low the quality, that's my opinion...

Jez

18:04

not if it was only translations for particularly tricky phrases. subjective i suppose, but generally something that Google Translate can deal with would be offtopic

but i definitely see a place for tricky translations and i think they should be explicitly ontopic

Alenanno

Can you make an example of those tricky phrases you're referring to? Do you mean idiomatic expressions?

Jez

yes

like 'ça me fait grincer les dents'

Kit

Well, we do accept those, don't we?

Jez

i think it would get closed as translation/offtopic

it certainly isn't clear in the faq that those are accepted

Martha

@Jez That's what tags are for.

Alenanno

18:06

@Kit I guess so, but it's better to at least show that you did something... Most of those translation requests are like "do it for me", like we are here just for that :|

Kit

"There is a French phrase that is roughly 'It makes me grind my teeth.' It means to be really frustrated. Is there an equivalent idiomatic expression in English?"

Alenanno

That wouldn't be off topic, for me...

Jez

@Kit I don't like the approximate translation to English for asking the question

one should be able to give the phrase in the original language. it probably doesn't make sense translated literally into English which is why you'd ask

Kit

I included it only for people who didn't speak French.

Jez

so what would the actual question be?

Kit

18:10

I think asking for a translation of 'ça me fait grincer les dents' is off-topic, but asking for an equivalent English expression is on-topic. Similar to a word choice request.

Jez

it's the same thing, isn't it?

Kit

And you must therefore explain the use of the French idiom.

Jez

an English equivalent basically is a translation

Kit

No, it's not the same thing.

Jez

well a paraphrased translation

Kit

18:11

It's not paraphrased. I can translate the Chinese expression as "I know it by my little pinky," but the English equivalent is "I know it by heart."

Jez

translate - between languages

French language -> semantics -> English language

that's a form of translation

Alenanno

Guys, that's called interpretation... It's what interprets do. :)

Jez

sure you might be able to translate some literally explicitly to English and people can make a guess at the original phrase and give an English equivalent

Kit

Chinese has this expression "playing lute to the cattle." What is this in English? "Preaching to the choir" or "pearls before swine?"

Jez

but in some cases i predict the literal translation will be nonsense and people might struggle to figure out what the original foreign phrase even was

so just giving the literal foreign phrase for paraphrasing into English is better

Kit

18:13

Better yet, just give the context and ask for an appropriate word or phrase.

Martha

Something like "There is a phrase in language [x] that roughly translates to [y]; is there an equivalent English idiom?" is on-topic. However, "There is a phrase, [y], in language [x]; how would that be translated to English?" is off-topic.

Kit

@Martha This is what I'm saying.

Martha

Yes, and I'm agreeing with you. :)

Kit

@Martha (I know. Thanks.)

Jez

@Martha and you're having to make a rough literal translation of the phrase to ask the question

i just think that's inferior to quoting it in the original language

maybe you could do both, but i wouldn't omit the original language phrase

Kit

18:15

@Jez So quote it in the original language. You'll still have to explain how it is used in context.

Jez

well if you're saying that wouldn't be closed it might be worth a test question

Kit

@Alain Salut! Ça va?

Jez

but it should be the faq that you're allowed to write in a foreign language in this circumstance

Kit

0

Q: Does it sound correct?

I need to translate my thesis project theme from Russian to English. I have the following sentence: Development of the chair site of the methodological support with a detailed development of the storage subsystem. Is it correct? Chair means my university department. Methodological support ...

translation correction

So is this on topic or off?

@Jez Does the FAQ say you can't?

Jez

"But please, don’t ask any questions about these topics. They are out of scope for this site. "

"Languages other than English (including translation)"

that's too broad

i'd say maybe 'basic translation'

and then expand on how other languages are allowed for tricky paraphrasing or something

Kit

18:18

No, it says don't ask question about languages other than English.

Jez

it's too broad and I interpret it as basically 'dont speak other languages at all'

Alenanno

Paraphrasing is not a synonym of translation, it's something else

Jez

paraphrasing from one language into another is a form of translation

Alenanno

When you read some Dante's Divina Commedia in vulgar and you write the same piece in current italian, that's paraphrasing

it means "rewording" not "translating"

Jez

so? that's not even what's being discussed

that would probably be a good example of offtopic

Alenanno

18:22

I was just saying you were using the wrong expression, it wasn't strictly related to the other discussion

Jez

again, i say that taking meaning from one language and expressing it in another is a form of translation

you can have literal translation (offtopic) and paraphrasing (apparently ontopic), but 'no translation' is too broad

Alenanno

Ok, but that is not called paraphrasing, it's called interpretation

Jez

ok then, interpretation

Alenanno

That FAQ thing refers to questions like "translate something directly from/to another language" but, although I can't recall some example, I think you can write something in another language in your question... You can ask @RegDwight to be sure :D

Jez

well then the FAQ should be changed to emphasize that

because right now, coming at it fresh, it just looks to me like 'no other languages'

Alenanno

18:29

Guys, are you all in the Top users?

Martha

Here, I posted a question I'd been thinking about for a while. I believe this is an on-topic way to ask for a translation.

0

Q: Is there an English phrase for an inability to actually *leave* already?

There is a Hungarian expression, küszöbgörcs, which literally means "threshold-cramp", and is used to describe that long conversation you have in the entryway, with all the guests awkwardly holding their coats and purses, and every so often somebody says something like "Ok, we really have to leav...

single-word-requests idioms phrase-requests

Jez

just asked?

Martha

Yes.

Jez

we'll see what happens

but if i were interpreting the FAQ literally i'd proably at least say "translation, offtopic"

Kit

@Martha Hey, you're almost 10K. Pretty cool!

Martha

18:33

@Jez I'm pretty certain it's on-topic, actually. Because I've already done the translation, so what I'm asking for is an English idiom or phrase. You don't need to know any Hungarian to answer the question.

@Kit I've been at almost 10K for the last month. Sometimes, there just aren't any interesting questions to answer.

Jez

i still say the FAQ could do with amending :-)

Alenanno

@Martha Agreed with what you just said to Kit

Jez

what's the English equivalent of messieurs-dames? what's the English equivalent of une file indienne?

Kit

@Martha Well, I'll think of some eventually.

Jez

those are the kinds of questions I'd be happy to see

maybe slightly more complex

but stuff that just doesn't translate literally and isn't all that obvious

Martha

18:37

@Jez If you provide an English translation, however rough, then they might be good questions. The key is, you cannot expect anyone here to speak French.

Kit

@Jez Ladies and gentlemen? Indian file?

Alenanno

@Jez Sometimes it's not what you ask that counts, but how you ask it... Some questions out there qould be off topic if asked in another way :D

Kit

@Martha Agreed.

Jez

it's actually a 'single file queue'

but it's not obvious

Kit

@Jez That's the same thing as Indian file.

Jez

18:38

not in my dialect :-)

Alenanno

@Jez we say that in italian too... "in fila indiana"

Kit

And you wouldn't use "single file queue" in the US.

Martha

You wouldn't use queue in the US.

Jez

must be an American thing. i've never once heard of 'Indian file'. :-)

guess that would be a good English question

wouldn't use queue? ha

of course you would, people use it all the time

Martha

Yeah, in 'Merica, we line up, thankyouveddymuch.

Kit

18:40

I don't know any Americans who use "queue."

Jez

why's it called Indian file? Indians are likely to be in a single file??

Kit

It's a dead giveaway.

Martha

(Or stand in line, or sometimes on line, but never in a queue.)

Jez

@Kit take a look at some English-based programming languages, for one thing

Kit

@Jez Now that's a good topic.

Alenanno

18:40

@Martha in US airports, what do you have written in those signs that you see in the place where you wait for your ticket to be checked before going on the plane?

Kit

@Jez For the only thing. And probably most Americans wouldn't know why it's called a queue.

Jez

@Kit well maybe they should take literacy 101. :-)

Kit

You might as well say "tally ho, chum."

Or call soccer "football."

Martha

Usually something like "Check In" or "Security" or whatever the purpose of it is; the fact that you're supposed to line up is made obvious by the rat maze.

Jez

come to think of it, the guy saying 'file indienne' was from Quebec.

Kit

18:42

Maybe "Please wait here."

Jez

i reckon it's a North American thing

Kit

Probably. Given the prevalence of Indians here.

Feather, not dot.

Jez

Amerindians or India Indians?

Kit

Ibid.

Martha

24 secs ago, by Kit

Feather, not dot.

Kit

18:42

Thanks, Martha.

Jez

ah

again though why Indian file?

Martha

I like that "feather, not dot". I'll have to remember that.

Kit

3 mins ago, by Kit

@Jez Now that's a good topic.

@Martha Works the other way too. ;-)

☺

Forgot I knew how to do that.

Martha

☺ = Alt + Num 1.

☻♥♦♣♠•◘○◙♂♀♪♫☼►◄↕‼¶§▬↨↑↓→←∟↔▲▼

(That's 2 – 31)

Kit

I ♥ @Martha!

Are you feeling better, sweetie?

Martha

18:47

The boss has left, so yes. ☺

Alenanno

lol

Kit

Want that literal video now?

Martha

Actually, I just looked at the time. I need to call my sis.

Be back shortly.

Kit

Son. Of. A. B*TCH! Four hours of frigging with this thing, and all I had to do was write ApplyPaletteColors() in the appropriate place.

Alain Pannetier

Hi all, Hi @Kit,
Still pointy ears, I reckon.

Kit

18:50

I HATE YOU MICROSOFT!

@AlainPannetier The unicorn made me a bit crazy. Toutes folles? Is that right?

Alain Pannetier

Yes, that's right.

I logged in a few hours ago and there were 2 unicorns...

Kit

@Jez Nice question! We'd say "single file" though, just not "single file queue."

@AlainPannetier Well, @z7sg was a unicorn recently too. As well as @aedia.

Jez

@Kit ah

Robusto

@AlainPannetier — We had narwhals for a while but they swam away.

Kit

The narwhals were fun.

Jez

18:53

is 'Indian file' common even in North America?

regional?

Kit

@Jez Dunno if it's regional. Martha knows it, so at least it's Eastern Seaboard.

Less regional than g-deasley, I bet.

Alain Pannetier

I've seen that one as well actually. There were 3 of them.
A whole **blessing** I'd say.
Other forums also have some but they don't venture in EL&U. @z7sg is on SO.
Narwhal seem to be a reference to Ubuntu these days... I prefer mint but that's not so easy to identify in an avatar.

Jez

tally ho, mates. let's queue up on the pavement for these shops. put that rubbish in the bin!

@Alain have you heard of a 'queue'?

Kit

Of course he has. He's French!

Jez

they have 'file' too

Kit

18:59

You might as well ask him if he's heard of "croissants."

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