English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Kosmonaut

15:01

0

Q: What is a word for a question asked that has no answer because it is seemingly invalid

A friend of mine posted a riddle on facebook involving adding money and then subtracting money. It ended with a question asking where $1 went, but the trick was that their was no descrepency, so the $1 didn't exist. The question: Three guys walk into a hotel, and they're going to split the ...

single-word-requests

Nohat would probably have something to say about this question...

Jez

nonsenscal? :-)

Vitaly

trick question? …don't think so

RegDwight

Rubbish.

You subtract 3 but add 2.

You should either subtract both or add both.

In Soviet Russia, this "riddle" was in every single children's book.

Vitaly

True.

RegDwight

@Jez Huh, I thought I was following all French-related proposals already.

Looks like a bunch of them got killed.

Jez

15:13

mine got renamed

didn't get killed though. i think one did.

they renamed it to put it into line with the rest of em, ... '& usage'

Kit

@RegDwight Paltry tricks to keep the marks amused.

Vitaly

I am tempted to propose Latin Language & Usage unless there is already one.

Kit

@Vitaly There is.

Vitaly

@Kit Wow…

RegDwight

52

Latin Language & Usage

Proposed Q&A site for students, teachers and lovers of the Latin language

Currently in definition.

Jez

15:15

and the '& usage' is under dispute

:-P

z7sg

Latin? Nobody speaks Latin yet it has more followers than Russian. :(

Kit

@Vitaly Um, well, let's just say that Reg pointed it out to me in one of our early interactions.

@z7sg Is there a Klingon Language & Usage? That'd probably have more followers than Latin.

Hmm..

Vitaly

What about Linear B & Usage?

(I know it's not a language strictly speaking.)

Robusto

@Kit — Are you kidding? It would be second only to SO itself for user base.

z7sg

@Kit For all your Klingon, lojban, toki pona needs: area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/12409/planned-languages

Jez

15:19

@z7sg one could make the argument that most of the world speaks Latin. Well, Latin-derived.

much more than Russian.

Kit

@Robusto There are supposedly more Klingon speakers than Navajo speakers.

@z7sg I don't think you can call Klingon a planned language.

z7sg

If this chat room is incomprehensible, what would that be like?

Kit

@z7sg Lick this toad, then ask again.

z7sg

:D

@Kit Some people are saying 'constructed' is a better word.

Kit

@z7sg Meh.

RegDwight

15:24

RegDwight ♦, Europe, GMT+1

432 11

grammar perfect-participle letter formality single-word-request prepositions learning

z7sg

Yeah I've heard about those toads. If you think Klingon is a natural language you really have been licking them though.

RegDwight

I would like to boast while it lasts.

Kit

@Vitaly You use corpuses (corpi?), right?

@RegDwight Yay!

Jez

i dont get it

boast about what?

z7sg

@Jez Innit, what is to boast about a little blue diamond?

Jez

15:26

what does the diamond mean? :-)

beta user?

RegDwight

RegDwight ♦, Europe, GMT+1

26.3k 5 65 114

etymology word-choice meaning single-word-requests grammar phrases grammatical-number

Guess again.

Or just click it.

Jez

ah right so do you mod all the sites?

Kit

@Jez Only the things he's particularly good at.

@Jez Not just the things he's good at.

RegDwight

Jan 28 at 15:27, by RegDwight

@kiamlaluno: just visit my user profile, click on "accounts", and you'll be surprised to learn how many StackExchanges are out there.

Jez

not that surprised; i've seen that list before

funny how they ran out of unique logos

do you support people asking for a PM system to be added to SO, reg?

RegDwight

15:31

@Jez Nah, the non-unique ones are beta.

Only graduated sites get proper logos.

Jez

seems mad that there isn't one. they say people should add contact info to their 'about'

RegDwight

And a design and all.

Robusto

@Jez — It's what they use instead of a hammer and sickle around here.

Jez

apart from me, i havent seen one user with contact info in 'about'

so... that's kind of unrealistic

RegDwight

@Jez Well, this is not Facebook.

We are supposed to obsess over questions and answers, not over ourselves.

Jez

15:33

no but it's pretty much impossible for people involved in organizing area51 proposals to talk amongst each other

RegDwight

@Jez Um, Discussion Zone? Chat?

Jez

you can post 'discussion questions' but they'll be off topic

RegDwight

discuss.area51.stackexchange.com

Jez

chat is only for established sites

RegDwight

@Jez You can create a new chat room anytime.

Jez

15:34

and invite all those following a given proposal how?

the discussion zone is not for people trying to organize a proposal, it's for discussion about proposals in general

Martha

@Jez Contact info is private. They want you to put it in your profile so the mods can contact you, but they don't publish it for all the world to see.

Jez

a PM system would avoid that problem, really.

RegDwight

@Jez Yeah well. [Status-declined] over and over and over again.

Jez

it would only allow you to be contacted on SE sites, and you could block users or turn it off.

yeah well. sucks. :-)

RegDwight

@Jez Put it up in a comment on the proposal. Or in a question in the discussion zone.

Jez

15:36

put what up?

RegDwight

You can also invite people to chat directly, but I'm not sure if you can invite more than one.

@Jez The invitation.

Jez

you mean, 'create new discussion'?

that's not really a comment

@RegDwight how do you invote them to chat?

RegDwight

@Jez chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/new

I know that I got invited by someone just the other day.

I have never invited anyone myself.

Jez

that just creates a room.

RegDwight

I suppose I should just check out the help or MSO or something.

Jez

15:47

don't see how you invite someone :-)

French Language and Usage

General discussion for French Language and Usage - PLEASE USE ...

Vitaly

@Kit Only as an amateur. You'd better ask an actual linguist like Kosmonaut or JSBangs if the question cannot be answered by Wikipedia or help files.

Kit

@Vitaly Oh. I actually just wanted some practice. I've not used them before. Is there a sort of "quick brown fox" phrase to use to get the mechanics down?

RegDwight

K pipls gotta go. CUlaterz.

Vitaly

Well, the COCA and BNC list a few examples of their query syntax.

CU @Reg

corpus.byu.edu/coca/help/syntax_e.asp

Martha

@Jez, click on someone's icon/name in the chat. You get a popup menu with links to the user's profile, the other rooms the user is currently participating in, and a list of Actions. Under Actions, the first thing is "start a new room with this user".

Jez

16:03

yeah

what i had been discussing with Reg, though, was being able to have a discussion with those who were following your aera51 proposal

their already having to be in a chatroom and your having to find them is a pretty big impediment

so my support for a SE PM system stands :-)

Martha

@Jez Ah, ok. Yeah, hadn't considered that.

Kit

@Vitaly Yeah, I got that, but I guess I just need to play around with it some more before I feel like I know what I'm doing.

@Vitaly Like maybe I should get a linguistics degree.

Vitaly

well as an amateur I view it like finding out usage patterns

2 days ago, by Vitaly

the point is moot with that particular graph, since I don't know of a way to exclude words like rate and rise from the search query

the query is [*ate].[v*] by the way

it clearly shows that there is a lot more verbs ending in -ate in English than in -ify

and all those verbs are more prominent in academic English

or you could compare to try and [v*] and -to try and [v*] or something like that

interestingly, the former is way more often than the latter

or you could use a historical corpus to see how a particular construction evolved over time

there are some YouTube tutorials for that: omnibus.uni-freiburg.de/~mh608/motion.html

@Vitaly frequent*

Kit

16:23

@Vitaly Thanks. I'll check it out.

Vitaly

anytime

Semantic prosody

Semantic prosody, also discourse prosody, describes the way in which certain seemingly neutral words can be perceived with positive or negative associations through frequent occurrences with particular collocations. An example given by John Sinclair is the combination, set in, which has a negative prosody: rot is a prime example for what is going to set in. Other well-known examples are cause, which is also used mostly in a negative context (accident, catastrophe, etc.), though one can also say that something "caused happiness" (Stefanowitsch and Gries 2003). In recent years, linguists ...

^ this is often studied through corpora

and I linked earlier to a paper that investigated the try to/try and pattern by working with a corpus, I think it's a pretty clear basic use case for a corpus: icame.uib.no/ij31/ij31-page45-64.pdf

z7sg

@Vitaly I said 'try and do' earlier, but I think I got away with it

Kit

16:40

@Vitaly Excellent. That'll get me started.

z7sg

What is horror aequi? Linguistics.SE needed!

Kit

@Vitaly Motion charts are the bane of my existence.

Kit

17:05

@MrHen I summon you.

@MrHen Rats, it didn't work.

@MrHen I just wanted to say thanks. I upvoted your answer too, since it really was the best answer.

MrHen

I hate my internet connection.

Kit

@MrHen Oh, hi.

MrHen

Arg

Kit

@MrHen Is that pirate for hello?

MrHen

@Kit Anyway, the point was that your edit made all the difference. I was still on the fence until then.

Kit

17:17

@MrHen blush Thanks. I spent my lunch on it.

@MrHen I really thought it was an interesting question.

You said I mentioned "fallacy" though, and I didn't.

MrHen

Oop, thanks

That was supposed to be falsity

Kit

Now I'm afraid I may have offended RedGrittyBrick on Billare's question about "man of leisure."

MrHen

Wow. My internet hates me. (And it keeps eating chats about me criticizing it.)

Kit

Someone with 4K rep really ought to know better than to leave a one sentence, unsourced definition though.

@MrHen Hmm. It has achieved sentience? Better get out of Dodge.

@RegDwight I summon you.

Rats, this just does not work.

MrHen

@Kit If RegDwight were available he would probably be in chat without needing a summons.

Kit

17:30

@MrHen I know. I was trying to be funny. It's Friday and I'm feeling punchy.

MrHen

@Kit Punchy is better than thwackish.

Kit

@MrHen I have this phrase niggling in my head, though. Something from a movie maybe. "I stand in the place (something something) and I summon you." Can't remember it all nor who she is summoning.

@MrHen Ha ha. I won't thwack you unless you deserve it.

MrHen

@Kit "I summon you" is a common trope in supernatural thrillers/horrors

Typically involving demons and the like

Also a plot point in Pineapple Express

(Summoning, not demons.)

Kit

Yeah...I watched a lot of horror back in the day. Wish I could remember what it's from.

MrHen

What kind of horror do you favor?

Kit

17:36

@MrHen Oh, I get it. Very funny.

MrHen

;)

Kit

@MrHen End of days.

MrHen

@Kit Like, zombies and such?

Kit

@MrHen Zombies, maybe. I have an odd taste for revelation-style apocalypse for an atheist. But I also like vampires, and Evil Dead.

MrHen

@Kit Vampires like... Interview with a Vampire, Dracula or Blade?

I am trying to remember revelation-style horror films

I can think of stuff like Road Warrior or Book of Eli... but those aren't really horror

Kit

17:45

@MrHen Blade. Interview only if you mean books.

@MrHen Yes, I guess "supernatural thiller" more so than horror.

MrHen

@Kit Mmk.

Kit

@MrHen Dracula if you mean the old one.

MrHen

@Kit Ah. Like Constantine, The Ring, Paranormal Activity?

Kit

@MrHen Road Warrior, yes. Haven;t seen Book of Eli. I was thinking Stigmata, Seventh Seal.

MrHen

@Kit Yes, I really like that movie

Kit

17:47

@MrHen Constantine, yes. The Ring, I wish I hadn't. Ditto with The Grudge.

MrHen

@Kit Ah yes, okay.

Kit

Constantine is one of the few where I liked the movie better than the book.

MrHen

@Kit Mmk. So more gods and devils and less ghosts and ghouls?

Kit

@MrHen Yes.

Hellblazer is probably a good example of what I like in that genre.

Martha

@MrHen Say it ain't so! Sniff.

Kit

17:49

I could believe that Keanu Reeves could pull off Constantine so well, either.

MrHen

@Kit So... how about Rosemary's Baby, The Exorcist, The Exorcism of Emily Rose?

@Martha Well, I mean, it isn't much fun to be on the ack side of the THWACKing

Kit

@MrHen First two yes, don't think I've seen the last.

MrHen

@Kit It is newer and severely less graphic

Kit

The Ninth Gate.

MrHen

Haha

Kit

17:52

But who doesn't love Johnny Depp?

MrHen

My brother likes those types of movies a lot. I am not into the really intense stuffs.

But every now and then my wife convinces me to watch one :P

Kit

@MrHen So what do you like then?

RegDwight

@Kit It actually does, but my wife needs moar shoes, so tough luck.

I'll be with you in a minute or twenty.

MrHen

Brb

Kit

Moar shoes? Never heard of them before now, but they look hot. Yowzer.

@RegDwight It's not urgent. Don't put yourself out on my account.

@Martha Does this sound familiar? chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/1050886#1050886

Robusto

18:00

►

Code complete.

TFC.

Martha

@Kit Vaguely. I thought it might've been from Labyrinth, but it's not.

> Give me the child. Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City to take back the child that you have stolen. For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom is as great...

Kit

@Martha Good thought.

Robusto

@Martha: Can you tell me how to say "My grandfather came from Hungary" in Hungarian?

Kit

I'm thinking maybe "I stand in the place of our parting"

But Google gives me no joy.

Oh wait! Maybe B5.

Martha

@Robusto Nagyapám Magyarországról jött.

Robusto

18:08

OK, can I get that phonetically? :)

Martha

Uh, look up the Hungarian alphabet and go from there? :)

z7sg

@Robusto Hungarian is phonetic :P

Robusto

Boo.

Martha

Ok, ok.

Mr. Disappointment

/me sings '...you unpatriotic rotten doctor commie ra...'

Martha

18:10

Very roughly, /NADY-ah-powm MADY-are-or-sowg-role yewt/.

2

RegDwight

@Kit So whaddayallwant?

Kit

That was it. "Summoned, I come. In Valen's name I take the place that has been prepared for me."

@RegDwight I'm afraid I may have instigated some peeving.

@RegDwight Accidentally.

Robusto

@MrDisappointment — No "Motorpsycho Nightmare" quotes, please. I'm old enough to get them.

Kit

@RegDwight And since you obviously have nothing better to do with your time than hold my hand like I'm twelve, I thought I'd summon you to ask what I should do.

Robusto

@Martha — Thank you.

RegDwight

18:13

@Kit Go ahead,

Martha

@Robusto So why'd'ya need this?

Robusto

@Kit — What's this? @RegDwight likes to hold the hands of twelve-year-olds?

@Martha — I have a new Hungarian colleague, and I wanted to surprise her by explaining my Hungarian heritage. God help me if she answers in kind.

Actually it would be better if I could specify maternal grandfather.

RegDwight

@Robusto: and @z7sg: Spass machen means either "be fun" or "joke, fool around". The imperative mach Spass thus makes no sense in the first meaning, and is not idiomatic at all in the second.

Martha

Well, 'maternal' is anyai. Is this grandfather still alive?

Robusto

@RegDwight — But you enjoyed busting my chops anyway.

Martha

18:16

I'm trying to come up with a phrasing that'd be easier to pronounce.

Robusto

@Martha — No, sorry to say.

RegDwight

@Robusto Actually, no, as I was on my way out already and alle quengelten bereits.

Robusto

@RegDwight — That's why we go over this stuff.

Martha

Ok, then try this: Anyai nagyapám magyar volt. (My maternal grandfather was Hungarian.)

RegDwight

Blabla blabla blablabla Volt.

Robusto

18:17

@Martha — Thanks, that sounds easier.

RegDwight

(Before Martha is offended, I am referring to that dog comic.)

Martha

ny = like in canyon, gy = IPA [ɟ] (dy), other consonants as in English (except roll the r a bit), a = ah, á = the first part of the vowel in "ow" (as in "ow, that hurt").

Kit

@RegDwight Martha from Martha Speaks? Or the dog named Comic?

Martha

volt = was. But it's pronounced the same as the English "volt".

RegDwight

Hahaha, they put their verbs at the end and then they complain about other languages.

Kit

18:23

@MrHen @Martha I figured out the summoning I was trying to remember.

Robusto

@Martha Do I articulate the d before the y or do I blend them together like a j?

Martha

You don't have to put the verb at the end. It just changes the emphasis to move it around. Magyar volt az anyai nagyapám = my grandfather was Hungarian, not some other nationality. Az anyai nagyapám volt magyar = it was my grandfather who was Hungarian, not somebody else.

z7sg

Need an audio clip really.

Martha

@Robusto It's one sound, with no real 'd' in it, but it shouldn't become the English j as in joke. See Colin's comment on your answer here:

2

A: What is the name of the phoneme produced in an upper-class Briton's pronunciation of the word "Duke"? What's different in the articulation?

I think it's simply a d with a y-glide, which can make it sound like dj when spoken quickly: Dyook rather than dook.

MrHen

Goddammit; the internet is eating my jokes.

Martha

18:29

translate.google.com/…

(But click on "nagyapja" and change it to "nagyapám". Dunno why it wants to translate "my grandfather" as "his/her grandfather".)

Robusto

@Martha — Thanks. Great idea.

Martha

@Kit Yes, I saw. Now I want to re-watch B5.

RegDwight

What the what is this:

Robusto

So the final m in the second word is articulated as a glottal stop always, or just in front of another m sound?

RegDwight

2

Q: Present tense doubt?

From the beginning of my english learning phase, I have been thinking, how could a present tense be present? Meant to say, wouldn't time have elapsed by the time you mention about it?

tense present-tense

Kit

18:33

@RegDwight Philosophy.SE

RegDwight

I am at a loss of words that this doesn't have a single close vote. What am I missing?

Kit

@RegDwight I don't have that privilege yet, or it would have one.

MrHen

@RegDwight Voted. But in my defense, my internet hates me.

Robusto

@RegDwight I didn't see it until you pointed it out. Geez, you're so impatient.

Kit

What about the one for the spellings for a conference presentation?

RegDwight

18:35

@Robusto Yeah sorry, been hanging out on Deutsch.SE too much.

But now

The Bitch Is Back

"The Bitch is Back" is a rock song by Elton John, written with Bernie Taupin. It was the second single released from his 1974 album Caribou, and reached number 1 in Canada (his sixth in that country), number 4 in the United States and number 15 in the United Kingdom.. The song has been identified as is one of Elton John's best hard rock cuts. The song was twice recorded by Tina Turner: once for her Rough album in 1978, and again for the John/Taupin tribute album Two Rooms in 1991. Turner also performed the song in her live show in the late 1970s, and with Elton John at the VH1 Fashion a...

Kit

@RegDwight I knew you were Elton John.

MrHen

@RegDwight So... you're a bitch?

RegDwight

Haha.

MrHen

That would explain that one thing.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Great. We can take "Candle in the Wind" off the soundtrack now.

Mr. Disappointment

18:37

@Robusto I just couldn't resist. Had it in my head for days, and given the room theme.

RegDwight

@Kit and @MrHen start reading here:

May 24 at 11:03, by RegDwight

32 mins ago, by z7sg

So, Reg du bist Deutsch oder was? Schämst du dich? :)

I can now add your two posts to that list.

Kit

@RegDwight Hein?

@RegDwight What's "schämst"?

RegDwight

@Kit shamest.

Robusto

He's not ashamed of himself, although often he should be.

MrHen

@RegDwight I don't get it. So you aren't a bitch?

Kit

18:40

@RegDwight What does that have to do with Elton John?

RegDwight

SIGH

Mr. Disappointment

...

Kit

@RegDwight You're so misunderstood, eh?

RegDwight

Click on that link first.

Robusto

And furthermore, @RegDwight and @Kiamlaluno are not my neighbors. @RegDwight dreams of invading my back yard, and @Kiamlaluno lives on the moon or the sun, I don't remember which.

RegDwight

18:41

When I say "start reading here" and you don't actually start reading there, you are not allowed to ask any follow-up questions.

Kit

@RegDwight I was there when you posted it the first time.

Mr. Disappointment

Hilarious.

RegDwight

@Kit The rest is self-explanatory.

Kit

@RegDwight Still don't see what it has to do with you being Elton John.

MrHen

@RegDwight So... you're someone who likes to quote obnoxious self-references?

RegDwight

18:42

@MrHen No, you all are the ones who like guessing whether I am Rod Stewart, a Lithuanian, or a bitch.

Kit

@RegDwight Look, I know who you are really. I have certain affiliations that provide me with that sort of information. I just like for you to have fun playing your game.

RegDwight

@Kit I am not playing any games here. I'm merely pointing out that I have never asked anyone here whether they were Rod Stewarts, Lithuanians, or bitches.

Kit

@RegDwight And...?

RegDwight

And nothing.

Can't I just point stuff out?

Mr. Disappointment

I must admit that I'm kind of lost, is there an actual problem, or something to be resolved here?

RegDwight

18:45

KITT has a bug.

Other than that, no problems whatsoever.

Kit

@RegDwight You weren't pointing that out. You gave evidence of other people asking you those things.

@RegDwight You haven't given any evidence of not doing those things yourself.

Mr. Disappointment

Can't you just reboot, or something?? An interop reset command?

Kit

@RegDwight So until you show me your not doing of it, I won't believe it.

:)

Mr. Disappointment

Clever KITT.

MrHen

@RegDwight Yeah. I did. My internet is just eating half of my chats right now. So... everything that you see was said 2 minutes ago

Kit

18:47

@MrDisappointment I have no affiliation with Knight Industries.

RegDwight

@Kit The transcript is public. Search it for Rod Stewart and there you have your evidence.

MrHen

Ugh.

Kit

@RegDwight Damn, got me in the figure-four leglock, he did.

Mr. Disappointment

@Kit So you say. But that's exactly what an affiliate would say.

RegDwight

@Kit Besides, if you want people to prove the absence of stuff to you, that's @Vitaly's domain.

He already proved to me that God doesn't exist.

MrHen

18:48

This isn't worth it. I'm out.

Kit

@MrHen Bye MrHen. Sorry about your Internet!

RegDwight

@MrHen CU.

Mr. Disappointment

@MrHen See ya.

Kit

@RegDwight How do you prove non-existence? I thought that wasn't possible.

RegDwight

@Kit I told you whose domain it was. Not mine.

Kit

18:50

@Vitaly! I stand in the room of chatting and I summon you.

Well, maybe it will work someday.

Mr. Disappointment

I didn't here any clashing katanas when you called; sound effects are a must.

Robusto

@Kit — It is continually being proven by those who are not here. We just don't recognize their contribution.

Kit

@Robusto Why are you so cruel to a kitty on a Friday before holiday?

Robusto

@Kit — It's my last chance until Tuesday?

Kit

@Robusto ha ha ha. I love being your whipping boy.

Vitaly

18:56

Uh-huh. You summoned a power outage for me.

Kit

@Vitaly Oops. I don't know my own strength,

@Vitaly RegDwight says you know how to prove the non-existence of something.

Faheem Mitha

can anyone point me to usage rules for when one should use a word for a number rather than a numeral? Eg. "he took six steps" vs "he took 6 steps".

Robusto

I'm going to nuke this whole chat. Stand back everyone ...

Apr 1 at 14:09, by Robusto

1 hour ago, by Robusto

Faheem Mitha

hmm, i wonder if I'm in the right place. I don't see a lot of English usage discussion here.

2

French Language and Usage

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…