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6:01 PM
(My point being, perhaps the question ought to be protected.)
 
Kit
Hi Martha!
 
@Martha It has been noticed and groused about already :) I think it should be destroyed but then I don't have those super cow powers.
 
@Martha Ew, yes, that's just unreasonable.
 
Kit
@Martha I'd argue that the question is not as simple as it seems.
@Martha I got a new icon! See? See?
 
@Kit I agree, but I still don't think it needs 15 (mostly duplicating) answers, and that one answer from Rimmer certainly doesn't deserve 55 upvotes.
 
Kit
6:05 PM
@Martha That's why I didn't argue that part.
:)
 
@Kit Pretty icon, Felix!
 
@Kit Yes, I see! Congrats! So now we have a feline amongst us, to complement our non-monocephalic canine.
 
Kit
@Rhodri Not Felix! Kit-Cat!
@Martha Tricephalic?
Thank you. grin
Or as my son would say "Sanks!"
 
@Kit Except when he's drunk.
19 hours ago, by Cerberus
I was expecting someone to ask, which head?, so that I could say, all six.
 
@Martha Good grief, Third Idiot answered it twice.
 
Kit
6:08 PM
@Rhodri Yes, MrHen and we discussed it this morning.
Third Idiot decided to have another go at it.
I just got done editing my answer. Maybe I should've answered twice.
@Martha What would that be? Sesaphalic? What is cephalus? Greek?
Reg!
Martha must have summoned you.
 
@Cerberus Yeah sorry, I came too late to the party. I did manage to burn through my 100 stamina, but now it's 2 min left and we're still behind. Oh well. We'll only lose 2 points I guess.
 
@Kit I did not! Hmph.
 
@Vitaly Yeah well. Open a meta question first or something.
Nobody reads FAQs anyway.
 
Kit
@Martha You were the one who said that question needed protecting...
 
6:15 PM
May 14 at 13:56, by RegDwight
You're so repophobe, Vitaly, that's really something.
 
@Kit Yes, but I did not invoke @RegDwight's name.
 
@Vitaly But here's the deal, you won't get any rep for posting on meta! I promise and swear and vow!
 
But now that you're here, @RegDwight, could you maybe look into perhaps protecting that truth/falsehood question?
 
@Martha Ah.
 
@RegDwight No but I will get a badge, right?
 
6:16 PM
I was right in the middle of writing "What are you even talking about."
 
Kit
@Martha That's fair.
 
@Martha: it's not like we were claiming he was your fault or anything.
 
6 mins ago, by Kit
Martha must have summoned you.
 
K pipl, I'm out again.
Germany's next top model is on.
Or something.
 
@Martha That's only claiming his presence was your fault
 
6:18 PM
BRB, making myself a sandwich.
 
Kit
@Rhodri Yeah, RegDwight is nobody's fault; he just happens.
 
@RegDwight On what?
 
Drugs, perchance?
Out!
 
Kit
@RegDwight Are you a contender?
@Rhodri Haha. On Reg, no doubt.
You guys know what "under the pink" means?
 
I can think of a few possibilities. Context?
 
Kit
6:20 PM
@Rhodri Popped into my head when I was looking at my diagrams.
 
How close is this to what @Robusto had in mind when asking his question (I am asking as a non-native speaker: can it be replaced with “try to …”)?
> 1627 J. Smith Sea Gram. xi. 52 If she draw little water and be long, she may try and ride well, but neuer hull well, which is called an vnwholsome ship.
 
Kit
Not helpful, I know.
 
@Kit For a nasty moment I thought it popped into your head when thinking about Germany's Next Top Model
 
Kit
@Vitaly Yes. Definitely.
@Rhodri Hah!
@Rhodri I have no idea why you would think I am so vulgar. (blinks innocently)
 
@Vitaly I think this is a valid "and": ...she may try well and ride well...
 
6:22 PM
And this?
> 1652 (1476) Ripley's Pref. to Medulla in E. Ashmole Theatrum Chem. Brit. 392 Try and discerne within your hearte, By all the Lessons misticall.
 
Kit
@Martha I disagree. Ships don't try well.
 
@Vitaly That's definitely a "try to".
 
This?
> 1660 G. Duncombe Scutum Regale 379 Oh therefore let our distracted England be a warning-piece to all Nations, that they never attempt to Try and Judge their King, for what cause soever.
 
@Kit I'm not so sure. Considering the date on it, "try" as in "go through trials" might be the case.
 
@Kit I'm thinking of some archaic meaning of try
 
Kit
6:25 PM
@Rhodri Good point. She may make it through trials, and ride well. Got it. I'm sold.
 
@Martha I am thinking of it too, but so far I am trying to find the earliest references in the OED
 
@Vitaly Probably not a "try to". "Try" is very likely being used in the sense of "bring to trial" here.
 
Kit
@Rhodri Agreed.
 
@Vitaly Look at the spelling! Clearly written by an infant.
Or a dyslexic
 
“b. To try a person” dates 1538
 
Kit
6:28 PM
Hey Cerberus!
 
“b. To examine (a person) for the purpose of testing his qualifications” 1636
 
Right I'm off. I have choir practice. And nobody loves me :-)
 
Kit
@Rhodri Tchuss!
 
@Martha can it be “Test and discern within your heart,” with the object of testing being omitted by ellipsis?
discern: “4. trans. To distinguish (one thing or fact) by the intellect; to recognize or perceive distinctly. (With simple obj., or clause expressing a proposition.)”
 
@Rhodri , @Rhodri , @Rhodri .. (haha)
 
6:32 PM
“I wake, and I discern the truth.”
“6. Formerly sometimes used for decern.”
All of those quotations sound quite borderline now…
 
@Vitaly Hmm. I suppose.
 
Hi everyone
 
So, no conclusive evidence whatsoever
Hello @Dantario
 
@Vitaly Variations on semantic satiation?
 
Haha.
 
6:35 PM
@Kit: Hi!
 
@Dantario Hel lo
 
Kit
@Cerberus Want some cookies?
@Dantario Hi!
 
@Kit: I should like some cookies! But I'm still finishing other stuff in the mean time.
 
wow, I spend much time on stackoverflow and all that time I didn't scroll to footer to find this awesome site
 
Kit
@Cerberus Cookies for you! But mind my fingers this time.
 
6:37 PM
Kill all of them. (Devil smiley)
 
the most active room on stackexchange
 
Kit
@Dantario I think we attract a lot of stackoverfluvians.
 
yeah, I'll tell my friends about this room
 
Kit
@Dantario Make sure they know that we don't speak much English here.
 
@kit , how about my tongue ?
 
Kit
6:40 PM
@Dantario What is it?
 
my english?
 
Kit
There's a lot of German, Russian, and Dutch.
What else, guys?
Italian?
 
Nubian :)
 
May 20 at 20:26, by Martha
> Bóbita, Bóbita táncol
Körben az angyalok ül*nek*
Béka hadak fuvoláznak
Sáska hadak hegedül*nek*
May 12 at 15:22, by Vitaly
Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi...
 
Ce dracul vorbiti voi aici?
 
6:43 PM
May 12 at 15:24, by RegDwight
Le jour de gloire est arrivé!
 
Kit
Hi JS!
Don't forget Lojban.
 
buna, dar am venit doar sa vad de ce s-a umplut chat-ul de maghiara si galeza
 
Kit
@JSBangs I love it when you talk that way.
 
Feb 2 at 20:51, by Vitaly
ma kasi la suno sin li seli. soweli meli li kama sijelo. soweli suli li mama meli li jo e soweli lili jelo.
 
to all, ... thanks for this interesting room, I will be back soon .
 
6:46 PM
@z7sg I starred your semi-funny thingy .. I've learned "reciprocate" some days ago (smirking)
@Dantario Don't mention it.
 
We ain't no the Incomprehensible room for no reason.
(Try and repair your negation parser.)
 
Kit
@Vitaly Aaaah! Brain melting!
 
(.)
 
Kit
Why can my table not be nested within my p?
How is that fair?
 
Break your table.
 
Kit
6:52 PM
I just need to learn to use formview efficiently.
 
Not related, but "Doch".
 
Kit
Which would be easier if EL&U were less fun.
:)
 
Q: Hey Boob I got a problem with X, what shall I do?
Boob: Break your X.
 
@Robusto: this doesn't answer your try to/and question, but I will cite CGEL anyway: i.imgur.com/NjbWc.jpg
 
@Boob Uhuh.. you fishing for stars?
 
6:56 PM
@z7sg Heh , I? not at all (whistling)
Who told that? Break him/her.
 
@Boob Yesterday you told me to break my monitor, today Kit has to break his/her table.
 
Kit
@z7sg You could say "break a table."
 
@z7sg What do you mean? un-understandable
 
@Boob So... let me know when you've said something funny and I may star it.
@Kit Sorry I am so rude.
 
@z7sg I thought you're smart enough to recognize when I say something funny.
 
Kit
6:59 PM
@z7sg Nonsense. I'm tap-dancing.
 
@Boob Sorry I am being slow...
 
@z7sg Ok, ich verzeihe dir.
 
:) oo dear I gotta run!
 
7:56 PM
@Vitaly — Thanks. I see hendiadys pops up in a footnote on that page as well. Interesting.
Hehe, I typed "popups up" because I am working on popups at the moment and they are infecting my brain.
 
That's a footnote to “nice and hot (coffee)” above at the page, so probably unrelated
 
8:08 PM
in addition to what CGEL says, Longman Grammar reports that a. try + and + verb is often used when try itself is a to-clause (nearly all instances in academic prose and news, 45% instances in conversation) b. try + and + verb is more common in BrE and in AmE (20 PMW for BrE, 2 PMW for AmE)
I knew that “I will go and scoff catfood” is more typical for BrE, whereas “I will go scarf catfood” is AmEnglish-y
 
but isn't scoff just a spelling of the way BrE speakers pronounce scarf? i'd bet that these are actually the same word, respelled on the far side of the pond
 
will go and verb vs will go verb
different spellings to make it more authentic :P
 
ah, yes, you're still on that crusade
well, for what it's worth, i think that you're right
but @Robusto is the one you need to convice
at least if you want the shiny green check-mark
 
@Vitaly than in AmE*
It could indicate that it's a recent (the 19th century or so) British invention… Or it could indicate that the social stratum that emigrated to the Americas wasn't the one who used the construction regularly
I think I will go with the first hypothesis
 
8:39 PM
OK, I win. try and dates 1671.
The construction is called pseudo-coordination.
…at least to 1671.
 
0
Q: Can someone tell me why this guy perceived me as being argumentative?

NaiContext: I posted a question on Stackoverflow here. The point of contention is when I mentioned They do not say why. This was deemed to be close to being argumentative. The discussion took place in the comments section of the question. Am I missing something here?

@Martha: I had almost migrated this when I saw your comment.
I don't think this question is a good fit for ELU as is.
I see your point, but then some heavy rewording is in order.
Right now it's a broken window.
 
Cr*p. Another book I cannot access that actually answers the try and question.
 
@Vitaly — Hmm, but "go and get" and "go and find" and all other "go and verb" constructions aren't exactly parallel. We almost never use a "to" clause following "go" unless we specifically mean "to" ... I think.
I wouldn't say "Go to get me a Coke." I'd say "Go and get me a Coke." (Or, before someone links XKCD, "Sudo go and get me a Coke.")
 
@Robusto Where “1963—73” refers to the multivolume An Historical Syntax of the English Language by Visser, which I don't have (and I want it as a gift, by the way).
 
@Vitaly — Good luck with all that. I have you down for a green check mark if you boil this stuff all down and put it in an answer to my question, but that's as far as I'll go.
Oh, and my eternal respect, the love of your fellow humans, and eternal honor ... all that cool stuff.
So go and write yourself a response, tovarich. Or try and write one.
 
8:55 PM
Well, unless I get that set of volumes as a gift, I won't cite it for obvious reasons.
So no answer for you. :(
 
@Vitaly — I'm giving you a chance to be somebody around here. There are a bunch of answers to that question right now, none of which really fits, and you have an opportunity to sneak in there a day late (and obviously several dollars short, since you can't afford a simple little set of books) and steal the prize from right under their noses! Ain't you got no game, boy?
 
Several dollars short?..
 
From the phrase "A day late and a dollar short." Ya pineapple, ya.
 
> Price: $590.50
> Temporarily out of stock.
 
$590.50? Is that all? A mere pittance. I thought you Russians were all rich.
They'll probably give you free shipping as well.
 
9:00 PM
@Vitaly Give all of us your address and maybe we can each chip in and send it to you.
 
You know, @RegDwight could probably get one for you on the black market. You might have to kill someone, or smuggle nuclear material or something, but if you really want that handsome set of books ...
 
In any case, I sort of answered the question. Can't be bothered to state that “Some not-very-available book mentions that some completely unavailable for me book explains its origin and dates it to at least 1671” on the main site.
 
@Vitaly — Who told you you could play Dr. House?
 
Huh wha?
 
@Robusto Vitaly is much closer than myself to any black market I can think of.
 
9:02 PM
House, M.D. (also known as House) is an American television medical drama that debuted on the Fox network on November 16, 2004. The show's central character is Dr. Gregory House (Hugh Laurie), an unconventional and misanthropic medical genius who heads a team of diagnosticians at the fictional Princeton‑Plainsboro Teaching Hospital (PPTH) in New Jersey. The show's premise originated with Paul Attanasio, while David Shore, who is credited as creator, was primarily responsible for the conception of the title character. The show's executive producers include Shore, Attanasio, Attanasio's bu...
 
K pipl gotta go. Night all.
 
I know, but why Gregory House?
 
laterz
 
CU @RegDwight
 
@Vitaly — Because he loses interest in a case after he figures it out. He can't be bothered to do the grunt work, etc. Lazy schmoe like some others we could name.
 
9:04 PM
Ah. Haha.
 
Even Sherlock Holmes saw cases to their conclusion.
Anyway, gotta go too. TTYL. Do post that answer. I'm in a green-checkin' mood.
 
I'm not playing, I actually lost any interest now that I learned that there is an answer and the book is unavailable.
Cu @Robusto
 
Bye as well.
 
Maybe @Kosmonaut or @Cerberus or anyone else with access to an actual uni library could quote it. I cannot, unless I move to the US/UK.
 
9:16 PM
Would this question likely be closed?
> What's the difference between naked and nude?
 
I don't think so but I am new to the site
 
I'll wait for the more seasoned to vet it ;)
 
I publicly apologize for attributing to a wave of "X" is to "Y" as "Z" is to... what? questions.
 
@MrHen I forgive you.
 
9:30 PM
@MrHen Argh! Was I just suckered into something??
And I just KNEW the site was lying - I just knew that noooo way would 48 people be active in here.
 
48 people are likely on all of chat.SE right now
Indeed, that is the case
all of chat.SE currently shows 53 active
 
@drachenstern Arg, ninja'd
 
I'm the most active ever.
 
@Boob You get a lot of action?
 
@drachenstern Pah. I don't have time to read alt tags.
 
9:33 PM
@MrDisappointment eh? oh ... ah, I see. Well then, I suggest not clicking links at random, yeah?
 
And hi guys, by the way.
 
@MrHen Nah, you've noticed? nice.
 
@drachenstern I didn't! Here at EL&U, links click you!
 
@MrDisappointment Anyway, Hi plus special respects.
 
@Boob Reciprocated. But be careful, I could get used to those.
 
9:38 PM
@MrDisappointment Careful , careful ... set
 
9:49 PM
@Robusto:
> And make persuasion do the work of fear;
> At least to **try, and teach** the erring soul,
> Not wilfully misdoing, but unware
> Misled; the stubborn only to subdue.
— John Milton, *Paradise Regain'd*, 1671.
 
@Vitaly Formatting multiline chats is a bitch.
 
@Robusto: “Only from the 19th c. on, NED has one from Mi” —Otto Jespersen, A Modern English Grammar on Historical Principles, 1909–1949, NED = New English Dictionary (OED), Mi = Milton
 
10:33 PM
The largest national Russian library in Moscow does not even list an ID for that Visser's book. FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.
 
@Vitaly That book isn't in my university library.
 
Great…
He who decided that a book published in the 1970s (and which isn't even in stock anywhere) should only have a limited preview on Google Books, he should do a barrel roll and die of AIDS.
 
10:57 PM
@Vit, do you want those pages from the Cambridge History of the English Language, vol. IV, 309-313?
 
@Cerberus Thank you, but I am talking about A Historical Syntax of the English Language by F. Th. Visser.
 
Oh OK, I haven't read all of the chat history yet (you said you couldn't view those pages earlier).
 
That book by Visser is referenced at p. 311 of CHEL.
> For COME Visser has examples from IME, for GO from 1600 Shakespeare, for TRY from 1671 Milton (1963-73: sections 1316, 1319, 1321, 1193).
By a “nice” coincidence, the pages containing those sections are all off the viewing range on Google Books.
 
@Vit: Several versions of your book are within a mile of my house at this very moment. I'll take some photos for you tomorrow, if that will put your tormented soul to rest.
Which pages do you want?
 
11:14 PM
@Cerberus Thanks! By the way, I am given to understand by CHEL that those photos, should they contain the try and <verb> construction, are going to answer this question of Robusto's. You could get your well-earned reps.
 
I don't want to answer it: you do it.
 
Oh, no, no. That would be like stealing someone else's reps. I cannot do it! Especially if you go to the trouble of taking a whole 2-mile trip!
But to help you answer the question, I will repeat the quote from CHEL that refers to Visser:
14 mins ago, by Vitaly
> For COME Visser has examples from IME, for GO from 1600 Shakespeare, for TRY from 1671 Milton (1963-73: sections 1316, 1319, 1321, 1193).
I have no idea what pages correspond to those sections. Apart from that it's in some 3rd volume, 3A or 3B or just 3, I dunno. It's in the contents, marked by the section sign §.
 
I refuse to answer it. Besides, I was going to the library tomorrow anyway.
 
Or maybe Pt. 2. Or 1. I am not helping apparently.
 
Part 3 is in two books, both concerning constructions with two or more verbs, whereas parts 1 and 2 are about constructions with one verb.
Funny that it should be a Dutchman who "solved" the origin of try-and.
Visser could be Belgian, I suppose.
Or an emigrant.
 
11:25 PM
In any case, I doubt that Visser actually explains how the expression came to be. It's likely he just lists some examples with dates.
That's a whole 'nother question.
 
Oh, I see.
 
In linguistics, a coordination is a complex syntactic structure that links together two or more elements, known as conjuncts or conjoins. Coordinators are typically: "and" and "or". The word "but" is also often considered a coordinator although it may have slightly different properties from others. Coordination has a number of interesting linguistic properties. *Any syntactic category can be coordinated. *It is subject to the Rule of Coordination of Likes *It is subject to the Coordinate Structure Constraint. *but is subject to an exception in the form of Across-the-Board extraction. Co...
 
Ach @Cerberus
 
I don't think this usage of "try and" is all that strange if you consider how "and" works in general: it is often used to introduce a second action that takes place after the first, as in "she went outside and got the mail". Enter post hoc ergo propter hoc, and "and" may introduce a consequence, as in "God spoke the word and there was light", which is borderline.
Hello @bodypart.
 
Thanks a lot for your attention.
 
11:31 PM
I have seen Latin et ("and") used consecutively in the Vulgate; that is very ugly and vulgar, because you would normally use ut, "so that", but I immediately understood. We use "en" to introduce a result or consequence in Dutch as well.
@Boob: What inspired you to choose that particular user name?
 
@Cerberus Well, the usage is nicely explained in this paper. It doesn't seem to be a mystery at this point, unlike its historical origin.
 
@Cerberus Not obvious enough?
I think you should complete your profile to earn that badge
 
You two do carry on.
"After you, sir!"
"No, after you."
"I insist!"
"No, really, I couldn't."
 
Truth be told, I really don't want to answer that question on the main site. Not after all that frustration I got with those suffixes.
 
@Rob: That's Commie courtesy. Watch and learn!
 
11:44 PM
@Vitaly: I'm not sure " At least to try, and teach the erring soul, " qualifies. The "try" is not syntactically related in the same way as "try and" usually is. "At least to try [something], and [moving on] teach the errant soul"
 
Oh my, @Robusto is questioning Visser. That deranged priest who foretells the Apocalypse might be right after all.
 
@Cerberus — Hey, I knew the Dutch were pinkos and fifth-columnists, but actual Commies?
@Vitaly — It's a pisser to question Visser.
 
@Vit: What suffixes? Oh, the -ify business? I thought you'd managed quiet wel?
 
I'm just saying I'm not persuaded by that one line from Milton alone.
 
What is the context?
 
11:46 PM
Scroll up.
 
I'd rather Google, that's faster.
 
Are you going to question Otto Jespersen as well? Are you, @Robusto?
 
I told you before, I'm something of an iconoclast.
The thing is, Milton's usage is poetic, which exempts it from much of the ordinary scrutiny we would apply to normal speech.
 
Plus Milton is a prick. He owes me money, the S.O.B.
 
11:49 PM
That Milton quote looks even less try-andy than the other ones I saw fly past in this chat.
 
Now you're a Trotskyite?
@Cerberus — Word.
 
Both the comma and "at least" point to try absolute, not "try and".
The "try and discerne" one was doubtful.
Just as the "try and judge" one.
 
Funny, because those quotes were not doubtful at all. They are all completely unrelated to the modern conative try coordination.
In any case, both Visser and Otto Jespersen are authoritative in my book. If they say that Milton's usage is genuine, so be it.
 
@Vitaly — That's very dogmatic. Are you sure you don't have a little Southern Baptist in you?
I say we question everyone. Hell, that's what the KGB would do. Well, except for Stalin. The KGB didn't question Stalin.
 
Are you scientists ? seriously .. discussing a subject like that is abnormal
 
11:55 PM
@Robusto If I didn't rely on authority in areas of inquiry I have no knowledge whatsoever, I would be like that Christian claiming that the Sun is not a star because stars = tiny, SUN = LARGE.
 
@Boob: Welcome to The Incomprehensible Room. Check your bourgeois morality at the door, please. We're discussing deep structure in here, with Russkies and Commies and Chomskyites and worse.
@Vitaly — Well, the sun is no bigger than my thumbnail. I've measured it.
 
How is that for Southern iconoclasm.
 
BTW, @Cerberus, did you see that JSBangs likes RegDwight's woody? Seriously.
 
@Vitaly: If I have, on the one hand, a quote from a non-specialized genre like Milton's poetry, and, on the other, an unmotivated assumption by an authority like Jesperson or Visser (whom I must admit I didn't know), my first reaction would be to check what arguments Jesperson and Visser put forward.
@Rob: I don't want to know what that was about...
 
@Vitaly — You say southern, and you probably mean Georgia, but you're just made because Russia doesn't have a Georgia anymore and we do.
 
11:59 PM
@Vit: Did you read Jesperson's reason for taking the Milton quote as a "try and"?
@Rob: But she does... that is, she is biting chunks off it until she has devoured it all.
 
@Robusto Thanks for accepting me in your group.
 

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