@Cerberus Yeah sorry, I came too late to the party. I did manage to burn through my 100 stamina, but now it's 2 min left and we're still behind. Oh well. We'll only lose 2 points I guess.
How close is this to what @Robusto had in mind when asking his question (I am asking as a non-native speaker: can it be replaced with “try to …”)?
> 1627 J. Smith Sea Gram. xi. 52 If she draw little water and be long, she may try and ride well, but neuer hull well, which is called an vnwholsome ship.
> 1660 G. Duncombe Scutum Regale 379 Oh therefore let our distracted England be a warning-piece to all Nations, that they never attempt to Try and Judge their King, for what cause soever.
@Martha can it be “Test and discern within your heart,” with the object of testing being omitted by ellipsis?
discern: “4. trans. To distinguish (one thing or fact) by the intellect; to recognize or perceive distinctly. (With simple obj., or clause expressing a proposition.)”
in addition to what CGEL says, Longman Grammar reports that a.try + and + verb is often used when try itself is a to-clause (nearly all instances in academic prose and news, 45% instances in conversation) b.try + and + verb is more common in BrE and in AmE (20 PMW for BrE, 2 PMW for AmE)
I knew that “I will go and scoff catfood” is more typical for BrE, whereas “I will go scarf catfood” is AmEnglish-y
but isn't scoff just a spelling of the way BrE speakers pronounce scarf? i'd bet that these are actually the same word, respelled on the far side of the pond
It could indicate that it's a recent (the 19th century or so) British invention… Or it could indicate that the social stratum that emigrated to the Americas wasn't the one who used the construction regularly
Context:
I posted a question on Stackoverflow here. The point of contention is when I mentioned They do not say why.
This was deemed to be close to being argumentative.
The discussion took place in the comments section of the question.
Am I missing something here?
@Vitaly — Hmm, but "go and get" and "go and find" and all other "go and verb" constructions aren't exactly parallel. We almost never use a "to" clause following "go" unless we specifically mean "to" ... I think.
I wouldn't say "Go to get me a Coke." I'd say "Go and get me a Coke." (Or, before someone links XKCD, "Sudo go and get me a Coke.")
@Robusto Where “1963—73” refers to the multivolume An Historical Syntax of the English Language by Visser, which I don't have (and I want it as a gift, by the way).
@Vitaly — Good luck with all that. I have you down for a green check mark if you boil this stuff all down and put it in an answer to my question, but that's as far as I'll go.
Oh, and my eternal respect, the love of your fellow humans, and eternal honor ... all that cool stuff.
So go and write yourself a response, tovarich. Or try and write one.
@Vitaly — I'm giving you a chance to be somebody around here. There are a bunch of answers to that question right now, none of which really fits, and you have an opportunity to sneak in there a day late (and obviously several dollars short, since you can't afford a simple little set of books) and steal the prize from right under their noses! Ain't you got no game, boy?
You know, @RegDwight could probably get one for you on the black market. You might have to kill someone, or smuggle nuclear material or something, but if you really want that handsome set of books ...
In any case, I sort of answered the question. Can't be bothered to state that “Some not-very-available book mentions that some completely unavailable for me book explains its origin and dates it to at least 1671” on the main site.
House, M.D. (also known as House) is an American television medical drama that debuted on the Fox network on November 16, 2004. The show's central character is Dr. Gregory House (Hugh Laurie), an unconventional and misanthropic medical genius who heads a team of diagnosticians at the fictional Princeton‑Plainsboro Teaching Hospital (PPTH) in New Jersey. The show's premise originated with Paul Attanasio, while David Shore, who is credited as creator, was primarily responsible for the conception of the title character. The show's executive producers include Shore, Attanasio, Attanasio's bu...
@Vitaly — Because he loses interest in a case after he figures it out. He can't be bothered to do the grunt work, etc. Lazy schmoe like some others we could name.
@Robusto: > And make persuasion do the work of fear; > At least to **try, and teach** the erring soul, > Not wilfully misdoing, but unware > Misled; the stubborn only to subdue. — John Milton, *Paradise Regain'd*, 1671.
@Robusto: “Only from the 19th c. on, NED has one from Mi” —Otto Jespersen, A Modern English Grammar on Historical Principles, 1909–1949, NED = New English Dictionary (OED), Mi = Milton
He who decided that a book published in the 1970s (and which isn't even in stock anywhere) should only have a limited preview on Google Books, he should do a barrel roll and die of AIDS.
@Vit: Several versions of your book are within a mile of my house at this very moment. I'll take some photos for you tomorrow, if that will put your tormented soul to rest.
@Cerberus Thanks! By the way, I am given to understand by CHEL that those photos, should they contain the try and <verb> construction, are going to answer this question of Robusto's. You could get your well-earned reps.
> For COME Visser has examples from IME, for GO from 1600 Shakespeare, for TRY from 1671 Milton (1963-73: sections 1316, 1319, 1321, 1193).
I have no idea what pages correspond to those sections. Apart from that it's in some 3rd volume, 3A or 3B or just 3, I dunno. It's in the contents, marked by the section sign §.
In linguistics, a coordination is a complex syntactic structure that links together two or more elements, known as conjuncts or conjoins. Coordinators are typically: "and" and "or". The word "but" is also often considered a coordinator although it may have slightly different properties from others.
Coordination has a number of interesting linguistic properties.
*Any syntactic category can be coordinated.
*It is subject to the Rule of Coordination of Likes
*It is subject to the Coordinate Structure Constraint.
*but is subject to an exception in the form of Across-the-Board extraction.
Co...
I don't think this usage of "try and" is all that strange if you consider how "and" works in general: it is often used to introduce a second action that takes place after the first, as in "she went outside and got the mail". Enter post hoc ergo propter hoc, and "and" may introduce a consequence, as in "God spoke the word and there was light", which is borderline.
I have seen Latin et ("and") used consecutively in the Vulgate; that is very ugly and vulgar, because you would normally use ut, "so that", but I immediately understood. We use "en" to introduce a result or consequence in Dutch as well.
@Boob: What inspired you to choose that particular user name?
@Vitaly: I'm not sure " At least to try, and teach the erring soul, " qualifies. The "try" is not syntactically related in the same way as "try and" usually is. "At least to try [something], and [moving on] teach the errant soul"
@Robusto If I didn't rely on authority in areas of inquiry I have no knowledge whatsoever, I would be like that Christian claiming that the Sun is not a star because stars = tiny, SUN = LARGE.
@Boob: Welcome to The Incomprehensible Room. Check your bourgeois morality at the door, please. We're discussing deep structure in here, with Russkies and Commies and Chomskyites and worse.
@Vitaly — Well, the sun is no bigger than my thumbnail. I've measured it.
@Vitaly: If I have, on the one hand, a quote from a non-specialized genre like Milton's poetry, and, on the other, an unmotivated assumption by an authority like Jesperson or Visser (whom I must admit I didn't know), my first reaction would be to check what arguments Jesperson and Visser put forward.