English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:01

@jlliagre Ahh nice cheat.

jlliagre

Playing July 26th WhenTaken now

alphabet

@Lambie Yes, that's all correct. But "You've got a car, haven't you?" sounds extremely odd to me. Of course "You've gotten a car, haven't you?" is fine.

@Cerberus In AmE the possessive have almost always uses do-support: "You have a car, don't you?" But the perfective have doesn't: "You've eaten dinner, haven't you?" The question is what to do with have got.

Cerberus

I know.

alphabet

Now normally "have got" behaves like the perfective have--but there's an exception with question tags for many speakers of standard dialects. (I learned about this recently from a book excerpt, which pointed out a number of examples.)

Likewise you sometimes see it in anaphora--"You've got a car, and so do I."

To me, the more traditional form--"You've got a car, and so have I"--sounds quite strange. I wouldn't write it.

Of course, in informal speech you see "I got a car" used to mean "I've got a car"--if anything, the former is probably more common. But the fully reanalyzed "invariant got" (as in "I don't got a car") is still often seen as nonstandard, though even that has been finding its way into standard AmE.

...except in cases of question tags and anaphora, where this sort of expression very much is standard.

Presumably it has something to do with the fact that the "do" isn't adjacent to the word "got," but I dunno.

I suspect the difference between dialects may be due to the rise in gotten, which makes "have got" seem less like a usage of the perfective have.

Quite a conundrum!

The less common "don't got" was the topic of an ELU question,. The answers aren't consistent: some say it's a matter of register while others say it's only found in nonstandard dialects.

As usual, most of those answers were just people making up BS or sharing their own personal anecdotes (which are about equally reliable and objective).

Because a lot of people think that they "just know" how the majority of speakers talk--when in actuality they know how they talk and haven't noticed or paid attention to whether other people actually talk the same way.

Or at least I think a lot of people do this, because you often see questions where corpus research conclusively disproves peoples' personal anecdotes and strongly held opinions.

Anyway I'm still hung up on that sang/sung question, which is a pretty good example of this phenomenon.

And on that debate about proper Santa Claus pronunciation in formal contexts.

Lambie

00:52

@alphabet I know because I teach English. That does not mean I am not familiar with all the variants that are not standard. Because I am. bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/… There are people who simply do not know the difference between standard and non-standard variants. That is not my case.

In American English: I have gotten is present perfect. In British English have got is both the present perfect AND the present simple using have got.

M.A.R.

@alphabet ha! The crazier ones call the Supreme Leader "The leader of all the [free spirits] in the world".

2

Lambie

Try going for a high-level job somewhere and telling them: I don't got a car, I ride the bus. Eyebrows would lift. I have nothing against the vox populi, but that's what it is. It's a sociological fact. Have a nice evening.

alphabet

@Lambie Indeed, that's what I said above.

Cerberus

#WhenTaken #150 (26.07.2024)

I scored 974/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 47.0 metres - 🗓️ 2 yrs - ⚡ 198 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 135.1 metres - 🗓️ 10 yrs - ⚡ 185 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 47.0 metres - 🗓️ 3 yrs - ⚡ 197 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 46.3 metres - 🗓️ 5 yrs - ⚡ 195 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 183.8 metres - 🗓️ 1 yrs - ⚡ 199 / 200

https://whentaken.com

Found them all!

Today's.

Including the structure no longer erect.

How did you find it?

I didn't put any images into Google Images.

Robusto

01:09

@Cerberus Is that tomorrow's?

Cerberus

I think so.

But somwhow Ed did it earlier.

Robusto

Yeah, he probably changed the date on his computer.

Cerberus

P.S. The date is in the copy-paste after the number.

@Robusto Evil genius.

Robusto

Ah, I didn't notice. I often don't pay attention to extraneous stuff.

Cerberus

I have only noticed this to-day.

Robusto

01:11

Was that googling or no?

Cerberus

Googling, of course.

Lots of it.

Robusto

Haha.

Cerberus

But fair Googling.

Robusto

I trust you.

Cerberus

How kind.

Robusto

01:12

Not kindness, just judgment.

A fair assessment.

jlliagre

#WhenTaken #150 (26.07.2024)

I scored 936/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 165.3 metres - 🗓️ 1 yrs - ⚡ 199 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 5 km - 🗓️ 6 yrs - ⚡ 193 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 65 km - 🗓️ 8 yrs - ⚡ 186 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 1107 km - 🗓️ 7 yrs - ⚡ 159 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 440.7 metres - 🗓️ 1 yrs - ⚡ 199 / 200

whentaken.com

No googling.

Cerberus

01:27

How can you do that without Googling!

I mean, the one in the jungle...

You can't even find it on the map when know what it is!

jlliagre

@Cerberus Teuteuf likes this region where pyramids were built. I select the location based on vegetation greenness.

alphabet

@M.A.R. I wonder what crazy things we'll only learn about him after he's dead.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Is it because you already knew where that region was on a map?

I would barely have known what country it was in.

jlliagre

@Cerberus I have been twice in that region and visited similar sites, yes.

alphabet

In alleged husband killer news, the Karen Read trial situation has gotten even crazier

Cerberus

02:01

@jlliagre OK that helps...

Cerberus

04:04

OMG I have just realised that When Taken uses some map service from Apple. Why?? That does explain why it is so bad. Like Flores in Guatemala being in the wrong place.

CowperKettle

05:31

For ADHD, White Noise Could Be an Alternative to Medication

@Cerberus The temperature is always okay to me, but I would prefer no rain :)

I like the range of temps from about +15 to about +20

I hate all temps above +24C

Cerberus

Agreed.

user 20458579510081670432

06:10

💯✅

CowperKettle

07:37

Australian of the day: bush lawyer - "You'll immediately know bush lawyer when you encounter it as the thorns will painfully scrape across your bare thighs or arms, quickly drawing blood. And, like any good American lawyer, once it gets a hold of you, it doesn't let go easily."

Vikas

08:21

My favorite thorn.

CowperKettle

08:37

> AI achieves silver-medal standard solving International Mathematical Olympiad problems

@Vikas What is this bush?

x.com/PoShenLoh/status/1816500643940511803

He's a math professor and one of the organizers of the International Math Olympiad

CowperKettle

09:00

Sorry. He's a coach of the US team.

Vikas

Vachellia nilotica

Vachellia nilotica, more commonly known as Acacia nilotica, and by the vernacular names of gum arabic tree, babul, thorn mimosa, Egyptian acacia or thorny acacia, is a flowering tree in the family Fabaceae. It is native to Africa, the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent. It is also considered a 'weed of national significance' and an invasive species of concern in Australia, as well as a noxious weed by the federal government of the United States. == Taxonomy == This species of tree is the type species of the Linnaean genus Acacia, which derives its name from Greek ἀκακία, akakía, the name given...

Probably this.

I will need to confirm local name then I could confirm.

CowperKettle

For about a month, I've been feeling numb in my little finger on the right hand, and now it has spread to the next one, the ring finger.

What gives.

@Vikas Looks nice!

> The tender twig of this plant is used as a toothbrush in south-east Africa and the Indian subcontinent.

Did you twig your teeth?!

Vikas

09:39

@CowperKettle Couple of times in the past. But not this tree. I used Neem tree.

CowperKettle

ChatGPT has launched a search engine: chatgpt.com

@Vikas I wonder what tree people in Russia used in the 19th century and earlier

There are mentions of tooth brushes used in the times of Ivan the Terrible, but I found no pictures of them.

They reportedly used pig stubble to create the brushing head

Pig bristle

smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/…

> in 1938, DuPont’s new toothbrush went on sale. Doctor West’s Miracle-Tuft was an innovation that shaped dental care. Rather than the pig-hair bristles that people had used before, the new toothbrush used nylon.

> But down through the centuries, many people preferred to use a rag over using hog bristles, reports Pagan Kennedy for The New York Times. For one thing, the bristles were pointy and hard on the gums, even though they softened with soaking. For another, she writes, they were soggy. And they weren’t all that clean. So people would use a rag and some kind of substance—soot, baking soda and salt are three—to clean their teeth.

Vikas

@CowperKettle It's a well made brush like modern brush. The one I used was just a branch of tree. You chew one end and it becomes soft then you can gently clean teeth. It might injure gums if not careful.

CowperKettle

09:59

I only read about these twigs

jlliagre

10:11

@Cerberus There are certainly flowers in this part of the Rainforest ;-)

Mitch

12:46

@Cerberus I may be mixing up things I think are exceptional about the US and things that are problems in the US now economically for individuals (healthcare, housing, education, childcare). Housing prices are rising much faster than inflation here and more and more people are being priced out of being able to afford a home as opposed to rent (I hear). But I'm fairly certain that the US is no outlier in buy vs rent percentage across world or even OECD countries.

Book of OECD stats p 87.

@Cerberus I can't think of the right word for it, Provincialism? Insularity? Obliviousness? There's some obvious -awareness- but easily dismissed, like a child who seems aware that there are other people but doesn't have the capacity to manage other people's point of view.well.

@alphabet This is starting to sound like Bradley Cooper from the Guardians of the Galaxy:

Guardians Of The Galaxy 1 - Rocket Best Moments

►

Robusto

13:10

Wordle 1,133 5/6

⬛⬛🟨⬛⬛
🟩⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
🟩⬛⬛🟩⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

user 20458579510081670432

@Robusto Duly noted.

Robusto

Daily Octordle #914
5️⃣4️⃣
🕚🕛
🔟7️⃣
8️⃣9️⃣
Score: 66

alphabet

13:34

@Mitch I find it deeply offensive that they hired a human actor to play that part instead of a raccoon.

Feb 13 at 2:31, by alphabet

As a society, we need to move past anti-raccoonist beliefs like "theft is bad"

jlliagre

Wordle 1 133 5/6

⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛⬛🟨⬛
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟨⬛⬛🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

#WhenTaken #150 (26.07.2024)

I scored 936/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 165.3 metres - 🗓️ 1 yrs - ⚡ 199 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 5 km - 🗓️ 6 yrs - ⚡ 193 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 65 km - 🗓️ 8 yrs - ⚡ 186 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 1107 km - 🗓️ 7 yrs - ⚡ 159 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 440.7 metres - 🗓️ 1 yrs - ⚡ 199 / 200

whentaken.com

With Google, I'd have found #4 location.

Mitch

@alphabet DECOLONIZE CGI!

So is cosplay uncool now?

I'd think it's always been with those heavy polyester outfits.

haha get it uncool = not hip/looked down upon and also hot and sweaty because the material is not breathable.

I have to explain jokes to myself so I can get them too.

Cerberus

14:31

@jlliagre Which one was 4 again?

MetaEd

14:47

Wordle 1,134 3/6

⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟨⬛⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Lambie

15:14

Set your VPN (Bitdefender for example) to France. Enter this URL: france.tv/france-2/direct.html ALSO, you have to get a free account. You need a French zip code like: 75012 or 75015 (Paris code). Then, after you get it on your computer, you can cast it to your TV (I'm not giving that here. You can go look it up). It was impossible to see the pre-Seine part of the ceremony in front of the the St Denis Cathedral on NBC or Peacock. Geesus.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Spoiler

MetaEd

16:41

#WhenTaken #151 (27.07.2024)

I scored 967/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 11.9 metres - 🗓️ 10 yrs - ⚡ 185 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 20.7 metres - 🗓️ 0 yrs - ⚡ 200 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 25.0 metres - 🗓️ 0 yrs - ⚡ 200 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 2.2 metres - 🗓️ 11 yrs - ⚡ 182 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 13.6 metres - 🗓️ 0 yrs - ⚡ 200 / 200

https://whentaken.com

I'm getting better at cheating.

"The great merit of society is to make one appreciate solitude." ---Charles Chincholles, "Reflections on the Art of Life"

2

SmokeDetector

17:09

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (93): How to force myself to pronounce a word correctly? ✏️‭ by Dennisleon‭ on english.SE

Cerberus

@jlliagre Ah, yes, that one.

I just Googled the flag.

@MetaEd How did you get all the 0 years?

And why did I still score higher than you?

And how did you cheat?

Robusto

18:05

@MetaEd Hey, do us a favor and refrain from posting tomorrow's puzzle until the day of? Thanks in advance.

Robusto

18:19

Daily Sequence Octordle #914
3️⃣6️⃣
7️⃣8️⃣
9️⃣🔟
🕚🕛
Score: 66

Source and methodology for above

MetaEd

@Cerberus A: by cheating.

@Cerberus on #151?

@Robusto Does it create spoilers? What's the harm?

Robusto

@MetaEd A: In a manner of speaking, yes. B: Confusing.

MetaEd

18:41

@Robusto I'm looking at the pasted output for spoilers. Maybe I'm missing something

@Robusto now the World puzzle output, that's a bit more helpful

*Wordle

Robusto

@MetaEd Example: If #n looks very British and someone sees that you're 13000 km off, the obvious choice would be Australia/New Zealand.

There are other tip-offs as well.

MetaEd

@Robusto this suggests another cheating strategy: wait for everyone else to post their answers then learn from them

Robusto

Look, I see it as a problem. I asked you politely. If you don't care, or if early posting is so very important to you that you don't mind others seeing it as rude, I can't stop you.

MetaEd

Actually, early posting is not particularly important to me. I'm investigating whether I can get a perfect score (i.e., cheat perfectly), as a sort of joke, and then I'll soon lose interest completely.

So very soon I should no longer be the thorn in your side.

Robusto

That's kind of like saying, "Just hang in there, I'll soon get tired of spitting in your face."

MetaEd

18:49

Let me put it this way. You seem to be trying to play the game without cheating. And apparently you can get tips by looking at other peoples' answers, so I have to assume as a non-cheater you're already avoiding looking at answers. So why are you singling my answers out for opprobrium?

Robusto

I've said my piece. I'm not going to debate the point with you.

user 20458579510081670432

Aaand that should be a wrap on the opening ceremony...

user 20458579510081670432

19:18

... talking about cheating, Canada put themselves on the map with some spy gate scandal.

> Winning is not everything, it is the only thing.

CowperKettle

Abbreviation of the day: G.R.O.S. - Groupe de réflexion sur l'Obésité et le Surpoids

Robusto

@user20458579510081670432 That doesn't sound like Ken Stabler.

user 20458579510081670432

Lombardi, perhaps?

Robusto

@user20458579510081670432 Well yeah, but you're the Raiders fan.

user 20458579510081670432

The snake had a lot of good one liners.

Robusto

19:26

So what is a Raiders fan doing quoting a Packers coach?

user 20458579510081670432

Sour grapes from the first super bowl they beat us in, I guess.

Robusto

19:38

#WhenTaken #150 (26.07.2024)

I scored 730/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 761 km - 🗓️ 0 yrs - ⚡ 177 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 10253 km - 🗓️ 19 yrs - ⚡ 58 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 398 km - 🗓️ 12 yrs - ⚡ 167 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 222 km - 🗓️ 24 yrs - ⚡ 131 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 4 km - 🗓️ 3 yrs - ⚡ 197 / 200

https://whentaken.com

user 20458579510081670432

≈ C+

or B–

🎉

Robusto

19:55

One Man Phantom of the Opera (Medley Cover) Andrew Lloyd Webber Nick Pitera

►

@tchrist Can this possibly one guy's voice? ^

user 20458579510081670432

20:16

*be

:-)

Robusto

20:29

@user20458579510081670432 The "be" was implied, obviously.

user 20458579510081670432

Hence the ":-)", sir.

Perhaps, I should've used ;-) instead?

To, or not to, that is the question.

Mitch

22:24

@user20458579510081670432 you could have said 'this sentence no verb'

Or

You eliminate other in sentence.

Languages with no copula that get along fine without them.

Or

Vestis virum reddit.

Or

Elephantus non capit murem.

Or

.

alphabet

22:39

Something I recently realized: the phrase "pedal to the metal" almost had to have originated in the US. The internal rhyme wouldn't work in most other dialects.

Robusto

23:44

@alphabet What internal rhyme? You mean something besides pedal/metal?

I think you could rhyme pedal/metal in most dialects of English, even those who pronounce the /t/ with no voicing.

alphabet

@Robusto Yeah, I mean the rhyme between pedal and metal.

Robusto

@alphabet Yeah, I don't think that could not be rhymed in other dialects, as I said.

alphabet

Of course, in dialects where /t/ isn't voiced at all, those don't rhyme any more than packer and bagger.

Robusto

People overlook "almost" rhymes for the sake of completing the thought.

alphabet

But I don't think it'd've caught on as much if it didn't rhyme.

In my humble opinion.

Am I doing a good job of pretending to be humble?

Robusto

23:59

For a raccoon.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…