English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

M.A.R.

00:51

@Cerberus If it's like our experiment all over again the leaders will see splendor and dump religion.

Though to our credit, our revolution was something else in the initial decade or two from what I gather. Most of the stats governments of the latter decades bolstered to legitimate themselves came mainly from the work done before, say, 2000.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Irony?

Xanne

The Taleban, in current interviews with Western journalists, are careful to add, when explaining how well they will treat women, something about “in accordance with Sharia law.” And that’s the ball game.

Cerberus

Of course.

It is very clear that the situation in Afghanistan will deteriorate civically.

We can only hope that it won't become as terrible as it was last time.

Xanne

01:07

As an Iranian scholar once explained to me, these countries/civilizations have had no Reformation, which seems to be the single most distinguishing feature of Western culture.

All of which makes Martin Luther the single most important figure in Western civ.

Cerberus

Why is the Reformation more important than other developments?

Such as the Enlightenment?

The Reformation has also brought us problems, such as orthodox and evangelical Christianity.

Xanne

Because it separates church and state not just on a practical level, but philosophically.

Cerberus

I don't know.

Xanne

There goes the divine right of kings, and there goes the Taleban claim to rule.

Obviously it’s a judgment, @Cerebus.

Cerberus

Have not the protestant Kings of England claimed the divine right as well?

And did not the Dutch Republic enforce Calvinist orthodoxy dictated by Protestant clergy?

Xanne

01:16

Dunno, but that’s not the issue. Their foundation was philosophically undercut.

Cerberus

I kind of see your point, though I'm not sure how important that was, nor how universal.

Xanne

Thus, we arrive at the self-evident truths of the Declaration.

Cerberus

What Declaration?

I personally feel that the Enlightenment is the defining foundation of modern society.

And that it is not defended enough.

Xanne

THE Declaration. of Independence. Stop twitting me, Cerebus. Feel free to hold your own views.

Cerberus

Reason above all, and under it freedom, equality, 'brotherhood' (solidarity/charity).

It is these things which distinguish us from most other societies.

@Xanne Uh I don't know what you mean by twitting, but I did not think of the American Declaration of Independence, assuming that's what you mean.

I thought maybe the Declaration of the Rights of Man, or whatever it's called.

Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen

The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (French: Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen de 1789), set by France's National Constituent Assembly in 1789, is a human civil rights document from the French Revolution.The Declaration was originally drafted by the Marquis de Lafayette, in consultation with Thomas Jefferson. Influenced by the doctrine of "natural right", the rights of man are held to be universal: valid at all times and in every place. It became the basis for a nation of free individuals protected equally by the law. It is included in the beginning of the ...

Xanne

01:24

@Cerberus That’s a UN thing that came a bit later, I think.

Cerberus

UN?

Well, there are so many declarations.

Probably all inspired by the ideals of the Enlightenment.

Xanne

well, no Ref, no Enlightenment.

Luther was a radical.

Cerberus

There are conexions.

Xanne

Conexions? In the lexion?

Cerberus

But the Enlightenment mainly emerged in France, a counter-reformatory(?) state.

@Xanne Oh, it's just the more etymologically sound spelling.

The Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, and the 'revolution' of the 1970s are probably of the same bloodline.

Xanne

01:30

They all knew each other.

Cerberus

As are communism and economic liberalism.

Etc.

Without the countless Western invasions and destruction, the Muslim world might have developed more into a similar direction.

Especially in Arabia, Persia, Afghanistan, Egypt.

And possibly Indonesia and the Subcontinent.

Xanne

Ah, the evils of the West.

tchrist

Oregon rhymes with: (pick any and all that apply)

1. Amazon
2. leprechaun
3. Gorgon
4. Genghis Khan
5. Cimmaron
6. hurricane
7. her again
8. Aragon
9. Morgan
10. Corrigan
11. war agone
12. store upon
13. (none of the above)

Cerberus

Religious extremism often developed either with Western support, or as a reaction/rebellion against Western interference.

E.g. the extremism in Western Java: had the Dutch not been so brutal in their (ultimately failed) attempt to conquer/pacify the region, religious extremism might not have had as much support there.

Xanne

13

tchrist

01:39

Condemnations of 1210–1277

The Condemnations at the medieval University of Paris were enacted to restrict certain teachings as being heretical. These included a number of medieval theological teachings, but most importantly the physical treatises of Aristotle. The investigations of these teachings were conducted by the Bishops of Paris. The Condemnations of 1277 are traditionally linked to an investigation requested by Pope John XXI, although whether he actually supported drawing up a list of condemnations is unclear. Approximately sixteen lists of censured theses were issued by the University of Paris during the 13th and...

Xanne

@tchrist How about Horicon, WI, without the h at the beginning?

tchrist

@Xanne See, that's the thing. To me those two rhyme, but I'm from there.

Then again, I don't talk about pythns either, only about pythons.

Cerberus

@tchrist Why do you mention this specifically?

tchrist

@Cerberus Stupid religious extremism, the very thing you were excoriating. People had to go to Toledo or Oxford to study because the stupid Europeans screwed it all up.

Well, or Salamanca. You get the picture.

Toledo School of Translators

The Toledo School of Translators (Spanish: Escuela de Traductores de Toledo) is the group of scholars who worked together in the city of Toledo during the 12th and 13th centuries, to translate many of the philosophical and scientific works from Classical Arabic. The School went through two distinct periods separated by a transitional phase. The first was led by Archbishop Raymond of Toledo in the 12th century, who promoted the translation of philosophical and religious works, mainly from classical Arabic into Latin. Under King Alfonso X of Castile during the 13th century, the translators no longer...

Xanne

@tchrist Well, you and I have similar vowels, I think. My parents grew up in Wisconsin.

tchrist

01:43

It wasn't illegal to read Aristotle there.

There was never a "Dark Ages" in Iberia.

The Muslim mathematicians there were the best in the world.

If we must turn the clock in Afghanistan back to the 13th century as many are saying, then let it be that one.

@Xanne There's a question I had somewhere about all the Brits throwing out the second vowel in python and photon, something like that. We don't do that in Wisconsin, but in Seattle they do. At least for their neighbors. Strange.

20

Q: Why do photons and protons exhibit such anomalous behavior?

I first noticed in this answer that there is something sneaky going on with the word photon: its ‹t› is the stressed allophone of /t/, a fully aspirated [tʰ]. It does not reduce to [t] or [ɾ] the way it does in words like voting. Other words with the same issue include proton and lepton. The o...

But also....

9

A: How to pronounce -on endings?

To reduce or not to reduce? You’ve asked whether there’s any rhyme or reason to how we pronounce a word ending in -on. There is, yes, a bit of that here and there. Mostly it’s about stress. First let’s look at a bunch of such words to see what patterns pop out. I’ve sorted these words back to fro...

Brits program in Pythn. It's the strangest thing. :)

Xanne

Strange to me, too. Is it then Oreg’n? Oregon rhymes, then, with Morgan.

tchrist

Yes, it's homophonic with organ.

For them.

Xanne

Local abbreviating, like Nawlins.

tchrist

And they really rag on us for our accent. Prairie Home Companion was there for a show and it so bothered the natives they called him Garrison Kyler in revenge.

Xanne

Oh that’s funny.

tchrist

01:54

It was. I probably can't find the clip now, but it's in the show.

Then there's Missoura. Lots of these.

And yes, that's like Nawlins.

Little shibboleths against aliens.

Xanne

Chicagoans have kept Chicago.

tchrist

The awe version, yes. Particularly in certain neighborhoods. Rob could tell you.

Xanne

Milwaukee hasn’t lost any vowels. Golda Meir grew up their.

tchrist

Oh all the little kids from there say Mwaweky.

It kinda loses the -il.

Or they do the Brazilian thing to it.

Where syllable final -l becomes -w.

It just assimilates in very small mouths of babes.

M'waukee.

It's pretty casual, but also pretty common that way.

Luzianna.

Xanne

So it isn’t that the Midwest articulates. St. Louis probablt does’t have much t there.

tchrist

02:01

Sane Lewey.

Xanne

Whatever do Pennsylvanians do?

tchrist

Boulder has a suburb named Louisville. It's so new (~1877) people still pronounce it the way it's spelled. :)

@Xanne They do many strange things, not all of one cloth woven.

There are lots of old towns in Pennsylvania. I don't know their local pronunciations at all. The west is very different from the east. No one could ever confuse a Pittsburgher for a Philadelphian.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, but what about it?

tchrist

They have an unusual variant of the cot–caught merger in the west. They merge them both to caught not to cot.

Cerberus

Mediaeval Paris had not gone through the Enlightenment yet.

tchrist

02:07

@Cerberus I've shown it is not reasonable to blame the unreasonable situation of the illiterate now-Muslim tribes in central Asia on the West.

Cerberus

I'm not sure I follow.

tchrist

Connecting all this to religion is not going to get us anywhere.

Cerberus

So many different things are mentioned.

There are several factors that have made Afghanistan into what it is today.

One is Western interference.

Another is a lack of modern social developments there.

Both are related to the religious situation.

tchrist

@Cerberus Many a PhD has been awarded for these "several".

@Cerberus How did the West cause its rank illiteracy?

Cerberus

?

tchrist

02:12

"Lack of modern social developments" derives from an insular populace unaware of the wider world without.

And being without letters, they always will be.

Compare with Iran.

Where educated middle and professional classes have always existed. This took a blow following the recent revolution, but it's still very different there from in Afghanistan.

M.A.R.

@Xanne Oh for sure, harsh barbarism coated with religion would only be directed at other people. Again, similar to our thing

Cerberus

Yes, Iran is different from Afghanistan, but not as much as some would expect.

Both Kabul and Tehran were fairly modern cities, with many educated people, and a shared Turco-Persian culture, to some extent.

tchrist

Yes, they deserve better. Far better. They all do. But no one can give that to them. They must claim it for themselves.

Cerberus

Turco-Persian tradition

The composite Turco-Persian tradition or Turco-Iranian tradition (Persian: فرهنگ ایرانی-ترکی‎; Turkish: Türk-İran geleneği) refers to a distinctive culture that arose in the 9th and 10th centuries in Khorasan and Transoxiana (present-day Afghanistan, Iran, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, minor parts of Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan). It was Persianate in that it was centered on a lettered tradition of Iranian origin and it was Turkic insofar as it was founded by and for many generations patronized by rulers of Turkic heredity. In subsequent centuries, the Turco-Persian culture was carried on...

Both places are plagued by religious extremism.

Of a kind that ceased to exist in Europe because of the Enlightenment and other factors.

tchrist

Today Iran has 228% Afghanistan's literacy rate.

Cerberus

02:19

And the extremism was greatly enhanced by Western interference.

Xanne

Afghanistan is plagued by tribalism.

Cerberus

Yes, Afghanistan is quite different in many respects.

Without Western interference, Arabia would not have been the fount of global Muslim extremism that it is today.

tchrist

@Xanne Because they consider themselves members of this and that tribe before they think of themselves members of somebody else's idea of a boundaried nation?

Cerberus

Without same, Iran would not be a theocracy today.

Xanne

I wonder whether successful empires rule by leaving local customs pretty much alone, especially the relationships between men and women.

Cerberus

02:23

Without same, there would have been no Islamic State.

@Xanne That often works fairly well.

But some empires are too nationalist for it.

Or too ethnicist, if you will.

tchrist

@Cerberus How so? You're not beating up the Francobrits here are you? Saint Lawrence of Arabia will not intercede on your behalf.

Cerberus

It was the British who consciously spurred on Muslim extremism in Arabia and brought it to power.

I believe they hoped it would allow them to remain in power.

tchrist

Yep, the Saint is not going to put you on his nice list this Christmas.

Xanne

Tribalism comes before nationalism.

Cerberus

And I highly suspect Egypt would not have been as much plagues by religious extremism as it is today with certain aspects of British interference.

tchrist

02:26

@Xanne Certainly to the Diné. :)

The West has lost all its tribes.

Meaning Europe has, almost. And certainly its children.

Cerberus

So religious extremism is often either directly supported by colonial powers or it grows to resist those powers.

But certainly not always.

Religious extremism is unfortunately far more common.

Xanne

Religious extremism is the natural state of mankind.

tchrist

"Allegiance to tribe over nation" is not something a Westerner can identify with. There is no convenient calque to lean on.

Cerberus

@Xanne I'm not so sure about that.

I think it was probably uncommon before civilisation.

And there have been many, many civilizations without it.

Perhaps depending on your definition?

tchrist

Challenging, often impossible, to prove absent a written record.

Cerberus

02:30

Well, archaeologists can do more than perhaps most others would expect.

And we have primitive communities to observe still.

Xanne

@Cerberus Yes, an overstatement.

tchrist

Was the Aztec Empire not filled with religious extremists?

Cerberus

Probably.

tchrist

Awful lot of human sacrifice there you know. An AWFUL lot.

Cerberus

Or perhaps it was rather an aspect of élite culture?

tchrist

02:32

Way of life, really.

Xanne

Are they different?

tchrist

Had to do with conquest, but I digress.

Cerberus

The common people often experience religion in ways different from the élite.

Certainly in more recent societies.

tchrist

@Cerberus Americans funnelled billions of dollars into Afghanistan every single month for twenty years running, yet it remains one of the poorest countries in the entire world. That tells you more than just one thing.

Cerberus

Yes.

Mitch

02:35

@Cerberus Large parts of Afghanistan (and Tajikistan) were part of Iran and are ethnically Persian. So saying they are similar is like saying th UK and the US have some similarities.

tchrist

@Cerberus Sheep to the slaughter.

Cerberus

@Mitch That is a slight exaggeration!

But, yes, I believe most people speak some Persian language.

Mitch

mmm... do you think so?

Cerberus

I do!

Xanne

Well, now they will have the Chinese developing the rare earths, and perhaps marketing the opium to the West.

Cerberus

02:37

@tchrist Sometimes the sheep slaughter the shepherd, because they feel he is too modern...

@Xanne Haha right.

But it is already sold to the West, I believe.

tchrist

It is as though we gave every Afghan alive today $50,000.

Cerberus

The War on Drugs made the Taleban rich and kept them strong. By keeping heroin prices high.

Mitch

within the current borders of Iran there is more variation than if you include Afghanistan and Tajikistan and only Iran from Teheran west

tchrist

Yet very nearly every Afgan alive today is worse than dirt poor.

Opium Wars

The Opium Wars (simplified Chinese: 鸦片战争; traditional Chinese: 鴉片戰爭) were two wars waged between the Qing dynasty and Western powers in the mid-19th century. The First Opium War, fought in 1839–1842 between Qing China and Great Britain, was triggered by the dynasty's campaign against the British merchants who sold opium in China. The Second Opium War was fought between the Qing and Britain and France, 1856–1860. In each war, the European force's modern military technology led to easy victory over the Qing forces, with the consequence that the government was compelled to grant favorable tariffs...

Cerberus

Did you know that six million people populate Kabul.

tchrist

02:39

So I am told.

Cerberus

Sometimes one wishes the educated begot more children than the uneducated.

CowperKettle

Kacey Jones - Down At The Piggly Wiggly

►

I came across this song while jogging, and cannot find the lyrics.

Good for jogging, lighthearted song

I can't make out some phrases and words.

tchrist

They only get about 12" of rain a year in much of Afghanistan. Not all that great for most agriculture.

Cerberus

It's bedtime, adios!

CowperKettle

Yes. But still they make a lot of grapes.

Good night, Cerberus!

tchrist

02:48

That's comparable to Albuquerque, New Mexico where @Robusto lives.

CowperKettle

It's 7:48 am in Yekaterinburg.

Time for a jog.

tchrist

Good morning and good night.

It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.

CowperKettle

Here, it smells like near a campfire

tchrist

Well, yes.

CowperKettle

The whole Yekaterinburg is covered in light smoke this morning.

tchrist

02:52

I meant a Covidian Christmas.

@CowperKettle Do you know that Air Quality Index there?

CowperKettle

A photo report published just this morning on the local website

tchrist

We see a lot of that ourselves. Ask @Xanne.

CowperKettle

ventusky.com/?p=82.9;-136.9;4&l=aqi

Air quality is good, but still smokey

tchrist

Yes, I was just about to say.

I was surprised.

CowperKettle

CO levels are a bit up

tchrist

02:55

The US AQI is mostly PM 2.5 I think.

Xanne

We have been under 50 AQI here. The winds blow mostly West to East

tchrist

CowperKettle

ventusky.com/?p=42.0;-103.1;4&l=pm25

tchrist

80 isn't too bad. Isn't great either.

I can still see fine, although it's less good than a couple days ago.

CowperKettle

Medical doctor and biotechnologist Kayhan Azadmanesh tells Nature about efforts in Iran to develop ten or more COVID jabs, two of which have been approved for use

Iran has a highly developed biotech.

Maybe Iran should just annex Afghanistan and undertake its development ))

tchrist

02:59

I think they'd have to get in line behind China, who, I believe, are up next.

Xanne

It will be interesting to see if China does any better than Russia and America.

Time for me to pay some bills. Glad we figured out how to rhyme Oregon, @tchrist.

CowperKettle

04:24

Nordlingen, Germany, a town inside a meteorite impact crater

> It was built in a 15 million year old & 25 km diameter wide impact crater—the Nördlinger Ries—of a meteorite which hit with an estimated speed of 70,000 km/h, and left the area riddled with an estimated 72,000 tons of micro-diamonds.

The rim of the impact crater

> it was used as a location to train Apollo 14 astronauts, so that they would be able to investigate lunar impact structures and related rocks

CowperKettle

06:43

Matt E. Эллен

07:23

@Cerberus I would say it's more localised, that is: why do New Yorkers do it, or even "why do the people I am around do it". The latter perhaps best answered by "stop being an ass"

But given the clearly stated question, is it answerable in the SE format? Would it take a book to do it justice?

CowperKettle

08:03

Xanne

08:58

New study finds that minority of animals host majority of zoonotic viruses

Michael Tatarski
2 weeks ago

Faheem Mitha

@Xanne Bats have lots of viruses, so I read.

CowperKettle

This scientist says cleaning indoor air could make us healthier—and smarter

Xanne

I was tring to uoload an image but it seems I have not yet reliably acquired

that skill.

Xanne

09:39

I have an indoor air filter which I run continually, but I have not yet noticed getting smarter.

Faheem Mitha

@Xanne Remember to clean it occasionally.

CowperKettle

11:33

Cerberus

11:48

@MattE.Эллен But it isn't that localised, is it? Many Americans speak like this.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus yeah, but the asker was talking from experience, limited to where they live

but, yes, the question could be broadened

Cerberus

Does it really matter?

One typically does not know exactly how widespread such linguistic phaenomena are.

Matt E. Эллен

Yeah

Cerberus

Which is why one asks.

Matt E. Эллен

Sure. I don't think the asker in this instance cares, they just wanted to get off their chest that they don't like it when people say ass

I mean, they say:

>There's nothing much that I can do I feel, because there are so many people around me with this habit.

> In my home country, Pulling of a word like this (even in my native language) would be an insult.

so they seem to want to stop it

Asking why is a way to complain about it

So I don't think editing the question is appropriate. It might be possible to construct a new one, but it might be too broad for the site

Also, swearing in New York is going to be different than in other places in America,and also different within different communities in America, so it would be good to narrow down who we want to ask about.

Cerberus

12:08

@MattE.Эллен Why would you think one excludes the other?

I can imagine being annoyed and perplexed, but also curious about this strange thing people do.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus because most people don't think like that

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен You can say that about any linguistic phaenomenon: it might or might not be of a certain degree of locality.

@MattE.Эллен Well, I do.

And I think many others, too.

People often research what perplexes or annoys them.

Like diseases or religion or grammatical errors.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus People often look up things that agree with the argument they are making. I wouldn't call it research

Cerberus

Uhh.

That really sounds absurd to me.

People research things that are unhappy with all the time.

Matt E. Эллен

Like my parents don't want to hear anything about how certain things they find grammatically or pronunciationally abhorrent are actually acceptable, or why

Cerberus

12:12

So?

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus few people research what they are unhappy with all the time

@Cerberus so my point is my model of what the asker was wanting to know is more likely than yours

Cerberus

The question is not "why is this acceptable", but "what motivates people (consciously or subconsciously) to do this strange thing".

@MattE.Эллен That sounds really absurd and contrary to what everyone knows. We research diseases, earthquakes, religion, etc., trying to understand why they happen.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus The subtext (and text) is "how can I stop people doing this thing I find annoying?"

Cerberus

As I said, that does in no way include the other, main question: why do people do this?

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus people are not unhappy with those things, they are scared of them. it's a difference of degrees

Cerberus

12:14

I'd be very much interested in hearing what linguists have to say about the spraying of swear words in seemingly non-swear-worthy sentences.

I'm pretty sure there is research.

@MattE.Эллен I think it is our responsibility not to always try and find fault with questions, but to apply the principle of charity.

A reasonable question is pretty easy to find in the Question.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I want to figure out what a good question about why people use the word ass is and if the question is too broad for SE

Cerberus

In my opinion, the reasonable question (not about his opinion) is even explicitly stated.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus but editing it to something they weren't asking is rude

so it's better to ask a new question

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен My point is that the question is clear enough and fine as it is: it is answerable.

I just hate the aggression that is ALWAYS on display on ELU, especially against newer users.

It really spoils the site for me and many others.

This is why it has such a terrible reputation.

Literally every single person I meet on other SE sites who talks about ELU tells me how unwelcoming it was.

Matt E. Эллен

That's ENTIRELY exaggeration

Cerberus

12:19

And these are academics, not some random 16-year-old.

No, it is true. I have never heard anything else.

That I can remember.

And it is these kinds of responses to questions that are part of the problem.

A few people are trying to find reasons to close questions, rather than finding reasons to actually answer them.

Matt E. Эллен

28

Q: I just wanted to say: Thank you!

I don't have a question at the moment. I had a question about whether "bear" was correct when used as a verb as in bear with me" I found the answer and much more on this site. I wanted to write a "Thank you comment" saying how useful this site is, but I was not able to submit one. I hope I am no...

discussion

15

Q: As a newcomer I would like to say Thank You

It is immediately evident that ELU runs as well as it does, is as informative as it is and stays as courteous as it does because of the hidden contribution that goes on, constantly, behind the scenes. Thank you, to all concerned.

discussion

2

Q: How to say thank you in StackExchange?

I have asked a lot of questions and got many answers in StackExchange. When I want to express my appreciation, I can only use "Thanks" or "I appreciate that." Can anyone teach me more about how to say "Thanks" and how to praise those people who have done good job?

discussion

Cerberus

That's nice, but I have never been told that by anyone, ever.

CowperKettle

Только РУССКИЕ могут это прочитать!

►

(With English subtitles)

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus well now you can see it.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Note also how old these are.

The site was much, much more welcoming when I joined.

The site has changed a lot.

Matt E. Эллен

12:22

8

Q: Is there a place on this site where users can express their admiration and gratitude for this site?

I am truly impressed with this site. It encourages so many good things as positive curiosity, research, mutual help, voluntary service, elegance and nobility, but also honesty. I am grateful for what I learn and for the diversity of approach to language issues. At first, I was somewhat taken abac...

discussion

Cerberus

I'm glad some people are still being helped, but the overall picture is dismal.

Matt E. Эллен

June this year

@Cerberus that's not true. you're just hearing all the squeaky wheels

the real picture is that we help lots of people

Cerberus

I'm not specifically looking for people with bad experiences: they volunteer their opinion.

Matt E. Эллен

yeah

the squeaky wheels

Cerberus

These people are moderators on other SE sites.

And highly respectable users on other SE sites.

Matt E. Эллен

12:24

Do any moderators ever tell you how great another site is?

@Cerberus doesn't change that they are squeaky wheels

Cerberus

Possibly, but I don't remember any complaining about other sites.

You're a squeaky wheel.

Matt E. Эллен

Well, I have been to Greece

Cerberus

Do they have wheels there?

Matt E. Эллен

Yes, and, as the saying goes, the squeaky wheel goes to Greece, or something like that

Cerberus

That I do not know.

But I stick with what I said earlier: a handful of high-rep users on ELU ought to switch to the principle of charity, instead of always trying to find fault with questions.

3

Matt E. Эллен

12:28

The squeaky wheel gets the grease

The squeaky wheel gets the grease is an American proverb or metaphor used to convey the idea that the most noticeable (or loudest) problems are the ones most likely to get attention. It is also expressed as "The squeaky wheel gets the oil". Other variations exist, and suggest that loudness gets attention, and prolongs the life of the hub. Conversely, a silent hub may be overlooked and neglected. And there is no necessary correlation between loudness and stridency and merit. == History == The origin of the squeaky wheel metaphor is unknown, but its current form is attributed to American humorist...

Cerberus

It is that handful who spoil the site for most others.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus Yeah. I'm not saying we couldn't be nicer

Cerberus

Being less attackful(?) against questions in the comments is one thing; trying to see the good, the on-topicness in questions is another.

Matt E. Эллен

it's a terrible balancing act between helping people and not losing "experts"

Cerberus

ELU is losing 'experts' by being so unwelcoming.

Matt E. Эллен

12:30

I'm told (though I have no stats) that we lose users because we have so many poor quality questions

Cerberus

Losing grumpy, annoying users might not be a huge loss...

Matt E. Эллен

If we've already lost all the charitable experts, could we cope losing the uncharitable ones?

Cerberus

We have not lost that many charitable experts: the problem is that no charitable people can realistically overturn the effect of the uncharitable people (not sure whether those are 'experts'...).

You cannot easily undo another's disapproving comment.

Nor his vote to close.

And you probably won't, because those spoil the atmosphere for you, so you'd rather just go somewhere else.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto YT recommendations be like

It can happen to the best of us ....

►

Cerberus

I could go though all the questions and post a nice comment next to each of Edwin's disapproving comments, but I don't get the satisfaction out of that which he does.

Matt E. Эллен

12:36

lol

Cerberus

Nor can I do anything about votes to close that I see.

Matt E. Эллен

could you condition yourself to?

Cerberus

And trying to reopen questions later is so hard that it isn't worth the bother. Not to mention that this, too, gives me little pleasure, whereas closing questions gives those people satisfaction.

No, I hate bureaucracy. Edwin loves bureaucracy.

And bureaucrats somehow always end up making the lives of others more difficult.

Matt E. Эллен

I agree that reopening is hard, but I do think it is worth attempting

Cerberus

Charitable people are generally disinclined to bother with bureaucracy.

Uncharitable people generally love it.

And the current system only needs three uncharitable people to spoil it for others.

Matt E. Эллен

12:40

I don't know how many people use the "follow" mechanic, but it makes know when to undo downvotes and such easier

Cerberus

I have no idea what that means.

And I'm not even really charitable, you know how I love to harp on things.

Matt E. Эллен

you can follow a post. say you downvote a post, you can follow it, if it's edited you are alerted and you can go and check if it meets your standards now

Cerberus

That's nice, but I had not heard of it.

Matt E. Эллен

I do that. maybe I'm the only one

Cerberus

It's probably something bureaucrats love.

Matt E. Эллен

12:42

:D

Cerberus

Can be used for good or ill.

Matt E. Эллен

just like reopen votes

Cerberus

Those are just far too weak.

I think I have said this before, but I think an up-vote by a high-rep should cancel out a close-vote.

Currently, people are forbidden from casting reopen-votes before closure.

They can do absolutely nothing to prevent closure when they see a question.

Matt E. Эллен

You have. it's an interesting idea. it would need a lot of testing

Cerberus

And later, people just do not see those questions any more. We like to browse new questions, not old ones.

Except bureaucrats.

Matt E. Эллен

12:44

closed ones are deliberately hard to find, too

Cerberus

That, too.

Matt E. Эллен

the number of new questions per week hasn't been this low since 2013. I'm not sure if that's because people are running out of questions, or what

Cerberus

Oh, that is a long time ago.

Matt E. Эллен

it increased from inception to 2016, then plateaued until 2018 and has been in decline ever since

Cerberus

Not necessarily a bad thing.

Matt E. Эллен

12:51

yeah

Cerberus

Unless it means many people have been turned off.

Matt E. Эллен

well, the number of people posting at least 5 times is in very gentle decline

but new users per week seems flat since 2019 (where we all know what happened)

Cerberus

Remind me?

Was that when SE attacked Monica?

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus yeah

Cerberus

So what does that flat curve mean?

Matt E. Эллен

12:57

steady growth? difficult to say as there's no chart for total users

Cerberus

No chart for total users, how odd.

Matt E. Эллен

I can't see one

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