English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2020-09-21 (page 2 of 4)

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6:01 PM

@Robusto apparently this adage dates back to at least Blues Brothers 2000

@M.A.R. OK. I never saw it, since the first one was so terrible.

@Robusto apparently people who really loved the first one were disappointed in the second

So uh, don't check it out

Anyway, I haven't had a traffic ticket since 2003, so I don't worry about that too much.

I just saw a review about it on YouTube

@M.A.R. The general rule for sequels is this: The quality of the sequel is calculated by multiplying the original's quality by the reciprocal of the sequel number (first sequel being Original II). For example, the first sequel is 1/2 times the original, the second is 1/3 the original, and so on.

6:07 PM

@Robusto one thing I'd noticed a while ago was that when the original movie gets 70 percent on Rotten Tomatoes, the sequel is very likely to get 40 percent

I never liked the Blues Brothers because they traded in a watered-down version of the blues, especially the Chicago blues, which I grew up with and revered.

The reciprocal rule would make a lot of sense before the 2000's

But you have, say, The Dark Knight trilogy

> Roger Ebert of the Chicago Sun-Times gave the film three out of four stars, praising it for its energetic musical numbers and "incredible" car chases.

The three flavors cornetto trilogy

@M.A.R. There are exceptions, of course.

6:08 PM

Roger Ebert usually gives good reviews.

I liked to listen to blues in the 1990s and early 00s

@CowperKettle Yeah, but he liked a lot of things I didn't. His appetite for movies of all kinds was more eclectic and encyclopedic than mine.

@Robusto well I haven't counted but I think Hollywood's gotten progressively better at sequels

And I actually got the chance to talk to him about such things, believe it or not.

@Robusto noice

Sonny Boy Williamson - Don't Start Me Talkin'

I remember liking this guy

6:10 PM

Ebert was the sort of guy whose opinion was often so passionate you would have respected it even when you disagreed

This is the case for most avid movie watchers.

@M.A.R. Exactly.

Shallower opinions tend to spark hate and controversy.

See, he also liked Russ Meyer films, which I completely couldn't see.

I liked it back when the IMDB site had a forums feature. You could just scan the titles of discussions, and you knew the movie was good or bad

Yeah, IMDB has gone downhill.

6:12 PM

@Robusto Oh, THAT guy

If people in the forums discussed some ethical issues brought up by the movie, you knew it was a good movie. If they discussed some outward features, and did not tear each other to pieces over the ethical parts brought up by the plot, you knew it was probably not good.

Now it's nearly impossible to tell quickly if a movie is good.

I know that IMDB removed that forum feature, but I never understood why.

Or should I say, Google removed that forum feature.

@CowperKettle What is the significance of ethical issues?

@M.A.R. How dare you

Turns out that "awesome" derives from neither Latin or Greek. And here I thought it was from a Latin root.

@M.A.R. ???

6:18 PM

I guess one learns something new every day on the Internet.

@Mitch Yes, I thought that was odd too.

As far as I can tell, the entire reason of making those things is to make money.

Everything else is an unintentional side-effect.

Unless you count the Marvel world as one single plot arc over ... 20 movies? and then yes, some of the later ones are better than earlier ones.

Hollywood does have excellent production values, though.

@FaheemMitha Sometimes.

Yes, the movies tend to make sequential sense.

And lots of computers churning out stuff.

6:21 PM

@Mitch I am intellectually superior because do you even movie. Hah, you fans are like babies with nuclear football. "The Big Lebowski" is shit. If you can't get yourself to fathom that, I'm sorry for you. I truly am. Entertainment is just not what it used to be.

And sometimes all they have is production values.

and you don't get microphone booms in shots that make it to the theater.

And an /s just in case

@Robusto I was thinking of Disney in particular.

@Robusto Agreed.

@FaheemMitha and they're getting better at that. The focus groups and the stereotypes are subtler.

Less outrageous.

6:22 PM

@M.A.R. I think it's my turn to go ???

@M.A.R. look man go to reddit to deal with your personal problems.

@Mitch pffwah. I am above social media. I only comment under YouTube videos.

@M.A.R. Yes, they are. They have a lot of money. And clearly put a lot of work into it. At least, someone does.

@M.A.R. Let's not say things we can't take back.

I'm always impressed at how sophisticated animated films have become.

6:24 PM

@M.A.R. I'll comment on youtube videos once I actually care.

I guess it's all those computer clusters.

My true genius often goes unappreciated by the social hivemind. /s

@FaheemMitha The latest Mulan remake is almost lifelike.

At the end of the day, though, 90 minutes of audio-visual doesn't amount to much of anything. People tend to forget that.

@Robusto I was in the sarcastic mood

6:25 PM

The last thing I will go see in a cinema is yet another blockbuster comic-book movie.

I'm told an /s denotes that

@Mitch I was particularly thinking of Moana.

I'd go see a compilation of cats being mean to dogs if it was on the big screen

@M.A.R. As was I, only I don't use /s.

once the virus is wiped off the face of the earth

6:26 PM

@Robusto eh, can't be too careful

I last went to a cinema in 2008. I doubt I'll ever go again.

@Robusto By 2025, -all- movies will be Marvel universe movies.

I think I walked out of that one too. It was one of the Harry Potter movies.

@Mitch You mean they're not already?

@Mitch Well, Disney films, perhaps.

6:27 PM

There'll be a cross over movie with the X-men and Wonder Woman...

@Mitch So which of the X-men gets a sex change?

and then Ant-Man and the Wasp will appear in Hidden Figures 2: The Race to Mars.

Aug 2 '18 at 15:26, by Robusto

I won't see it. I don't see comic-book movies anymore unless Gal Gadot is in them.

and then Sleepy from Snow White will appear in Fast and the Furious.

Also, the first "How to Train Your Dragon" had really amazing animiation, though I don't think that is Disney.

6:28 PM

@FaheemMitha Dreamworks Animation

@M.A.R. Which is not Disney, correct?

The Coen Bros. aren't always on top of their game, but when they are they're really good.

Or perhaps I should say, not currently Disney, since they seem intent on buying up the entire world.

@FaheemMitha hard to tell at this point

Jinx

If you're never seen Michael Clayton it's worth a look. Very fine, very well done all the way around.

That's from, like, 12 or 13 years ago, though.

6:30 PM

and then Kevin Bacon will appear in Toy Story and we're done

I guess a lot of people still go to movie theatres. At least they did, before the pandemic.

Sep 16 at 17:02, by Robusto

Bacon is way more appealing than it has any right to be.

Don't quite understand why.

Well, it's some kind of event. That's why.

I used to see a lot of movies in a cinema when I was younger but (a) I didn't know any better (b) there weren't a lot of audiovisual options.

6:31 PM

@FaheemMitha home streaming (Netflix, Amazon Prime etc.) have really eaten into the population of former movie goers.

@Robusto Were you addressing me? If so, how is sitting in a room with a bunch of strangers an event?

@Mitch I would expect so.

It's kind of a big deal

@FaheemMitha You get together with people and go out and do something. That's an event.

Go see a movie, then go have dinner and drinks and talk about it.

@FaheemMitha But really, only old people seem to go to movies.

It's nice when people have someone to tell them they are wasting their time. I wasn't so lucky.

@Robusto Oh, you mean as a group?

6:33 PM

You're wasting your time talking about that.

@Robusto they're the top of their game though. I don't like any other blends of dark stuff and comedy as much

Except maybe one-off instances I can't remember. Hmm

@FaheemMitha Yes. Why else go to a movie? Going by yourself just seems a little sad.

I always watch movies at home with my little bro

I've occasionally done that, yes. But not in a long time. I remember I went to one of LOTR films with some people and then afterwards lectured them about the horrible things that Jackson had done to Eomer.

No other habit has been as enjoyable

6:34 PM

@Robusto It can be, indeed.

@M.A.R. Yeah. They do that well. They're not what I'd call subtle, but what they do they're the best at it.

@FaheemMitha You should be talking about what Gandalf did to the hobbits.

@FaheemMitha Eh, what did Jackson do to Eomer? I forgot

@Robusto But I'm not sure there is that much to talk about, much of the time.

@M.A.R. Apparently it was horrible.

6:36 PM

Karl Urban is not horrible!

@FaheemMitha If the movie was good, you talk about that. If not, you talk about that. And that leads into other topics. It's just a get-together.

Although he was being several people at once in the movies

@M.A.R. Wha??

But anyway, what's so wrong with discussing a movie?

Did he also play one of the Nine Wring Wraiths

6:36 PM

That's part of the fun

@M.A.R. Made him into a semi-villain figure. Assuming I have the right person. One of Denethor's sons?

@FaheemMitha Boromir

@Mitch No, Boromir's brother.

@Mitch no IIRC he was both Eomer and one other guy in the books that's giving orcs trouble and fighting them before the fellowship gets to Rohan

Faramir was the good son in the books and the movies

6:37 PM

@FaheemMitha what?

Sorry, I was thinking of Faramir.

Faramir was definitely a downgrade in the movies

Oh, that I wholly agree with

Faramir is made into a sort of dodgy individual.

I forget the details now. I haven't watched those films in a long time.

@M.A.R. expletive expletive. I could never keep all those different people separate. The Rohirrim? Stonehenge? That other place?

I thought that was a particularly terrible change.

6:39 PM

Faramir is super badass in the books. He's almost Aragorn's equal

They all sounded like they got on horses, rode around the castle then came back in.

Though those movies took liberties with a lot of things.

I can imagine real Tolkien fans being in real pain watching those films.

@M.A.R. He was indeed. Not particularly fond of that word, though.

Sure, and GoT the series apparently reduced Arya Stark to just a kid I'm told

@M.A.R. Oh. I really didn't pay much attention in the movies. Everybody smashing swords and shit. again they all look alike.

@FaheemMitha because of the "-ass" or a connotation I'm not aware of?

6:41 PM

Anyway, the people I was with didn't really know or care what Jackson had done to Faramir, but listened politely.

@M.A.R. Yes, the "ass" bit.

@Mitch aw come on, the movies also improved part of the books.

Western popular media, and its preoccupation with (in no particular order), sexual intercorse, excrement, and buttocks. (I realise I sound about 80, but there it is.)

Although the first movie is incomprehensible if you haven't read the book beforehand

@M.A.R. Much of it is incomprehensible, even if one has.

All that battle stuff in the middle was quite hard to follow.

@FaheemMitha I think it's quite a while that the sexual connotations have been stripped away. It just means "kewl" now. AFAIK many languages have similar constructions.

6:43 PM

@M.A.R. Is Hollywood stuff popular in Iran stuff?

I always think that kind of thing must feel culturally very distant.

That's difficult to answer

Though the same would apply in India too, and people go and see those things here too.

It's unlikely my bar of popularity and yours match

@M.A.R. <Shrug.> I guess so.

So Eomer was Eowyn's brother and Theoden's son. I got those kingdoms confused. Sorry.

@FaheemMitha there are much fewer fluent English speakers in Iran, although a sizable portion of the population can speak the simplest English sentences. Most the language teaching system is archaic and whitewashed, so people wouldn't know about the word "bada**"

6:46 PM

@M.A.R. Just wondering what they'd get out of something like LOTR.

In many ways it's very English.

Then again, it was written by a very English person.

And the bits that aren't specifically English are quite European.

General cultural attitudes, and so forth.

A fair amount of middle age stuff in there, though that's kind of outside my knowledge.

Most people have heard of the Persian translation of the name. Nobody knows what it's about because it either requires an effort of 12 hours of movies or 1100 pages of books

And some of the very religious people call it anti-Islam for some reason

@M.A.R. Heh. I read them as a child. Didn't get that much out of them, as I recall.

I assume for no other reason than it's fiction and includes elves and orcs

Got more out of it as an adult.

@M.A.R. One would hope they would have better reason than that.

The world-building stuff is to my mind the most interesting aspect of LOTR, and as a child that completely passed me by. I wasn't particularly interested in history then, real or mythical.

Well, my personal impression of LOTR was it reinforced the idea of ultimate good and evil and their constant battle in me. There's no reason they should oppose that.

6:50 PM

@M.A.R. Yes, that's standard Western popular cultural nonsense.

They might oppose the fact that Gandalf et al. pass for prophets

I think every political authority in the world is greatly in favor of that.

Though Tolkien's version is a bit more nuanced than some. Though not by much.

@FaheemMitha ultimate good vs. ultimate evil?

At least his villains don't cackle.

@M.A.R. Yes, indeed. There is no such thing, of course.

I think it's not Western at all

6:52 PM

@M.A.R. Maybe not.

Maybe more general, but I'm not that familiar with other cultures.

What's Western is moral relativism and "my good is your bad". Comes useful when justifying bombing Cambodian civilians.

@FaheemMitha I think its roots would be deeply religious.

@M.A.R. I do think they like the whole random evil foreigners who hate us just because.

So Christianity, Judaism and Islam

@M.A.R. Perhaps. I've not thought about it that much.

But villains who are just evil for no reason is a very common trope in popular culture.

Me neither. It sounds like an abstract philosophy than something immediately practical

6:54 PM

Maybe not just Western. But it's deeply vulgar and stupid.

Works well for the people who run the world, so it's constantly reinforced.

@M.A.R. What does?

Villainy just because? Well, the writer always justifies it with the villain being a control freak or whatever

@M.A.R. They do? My impression is that they practically never do.

Consider virtually every comic book villain ever.

And that's just one example.

@FaheemMitha that there is a very powerful force of evil and a very powerful force of good. The latter watching over people and the former luring them into mischief.

For another, Bush and his "Axis of Evil". Including Iran and Syria, if I remember correctly.

@M.A.R. You mean within religion?

In the real world, people have motivations. Usually not ridiculous ones.

I know that Catholicism has the concept of original sin. And there is the Devil, of course.

@FaheemMitha well, people don't need motivation to hate other people

Just some distance

6:59 PM

I don't know what the Koran's take is on this, though. Perhaps you do.

@M.A.R. Oh, humans are very good at that.

But they get plenty of validation and help from external agencies. Often their governments.

@M.A.R. OK, I'll give you that the book TTT was horribly boring, and the movie only slightly boring. The big army scenes all looked alike, went on way too long and all I could think is that JRRT had literally demonized the Germans into orcs.

@FaheemMitha so my impression is that you would hate this concept because a group of people would accuse another of being minions of evil

Why else would you think it vulgar and stupid? And I'm saying people don't need it to hate other people

@FaheemMitha Out of curiosity, what is your local media preoccupied with?

@Mitch Germans?

I haven't heard of that.

@M.A.R. Well, people are deluded into thinking there are there scary people out there who want to hurt them. For no reason. Just because they are "evil".

7:01 PM

I would not be surprised of course

This is a constant, I'd say.

@M.A.R. It's vulgar and stupid, yes. Because it's just nonsense.

Nonsense made to frighten people.

@FaheemMitha sure, and if it's not "evil", it's "stupid" or "inferior" or something else. It sounds orthogonal

. . . To

Ugh. Damn premature enter

@Mitch I don't exactly know. It's not monolithic, anyway.

India is in a particularly bad way right now for a number of reasons.

But the media coverage of important issues is notably lacking.

The world on the whole feels that way, which is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy

I don't understand Indian languages well enough to follow the media in those languages, so mostly I just follow the English language press to some extent. It's quite poor quality.

@M.A.R. We've got real problems here.

7:05 PM

It's like that The Atlantic article that said Trump chips away at our decency with every single stupid thing he does that makes the news

Though I'm not saying other places don't. Just to be clear.

@FaheemMitha so have we.

@M.A.R. Yes, I know. See above.

@M.A.R. Feels what way?

@M.A.R. Yeah, there's a (common enough) theory that LotR was an allegory of WWII, Sauron was Hitler, and the Hobbits were plain country English farmers, and going to the west was immigrating to America and no it doesn't hold too much water and Tolkien supposedly gave a non-denial denial (meaning sure maybe Sauron was Hitler but really that's about it).

@Mitch Tolkien has repeatedly said LOTR wasn't an allegory of anything in the real world.

7:06 PM

I think there's an excessive fixation on the existence of the problems without much effort spent on solving them. This is my subjective interpretation coming from a place where people admittedly have very low morale.

Though clearly the Shire is based on some idealised version of rural England.

Much nicer than any actual rural England, I imagine. But the British have always been a delusional lot.

@FaheemMitha He's 1) a liar, and 2) dead so he can't argue against it.

@Mitch Perhaps. But he did say that.

The dwarves were Welsh

@Mitch Coal mines, you mean?

7:08 PM

There was this fantasy writer, Woodcock I think, that extensively criticized Tolkien's work

@FaheemMitha Something like that?

@M.A.R. Like me, you (probably) live in a place with a very dysfunctional government.

He criticized everything from the literary style to the fact that Sam is the real hero of the story

Which really doesn't help.

@FaheemMitha heh hehehehehe

7:09 PM

I mean it -totally- is Norse/Icelandic saga fan fiction.

I'm constantly having to look at Modi's ugly face, on a daily basis. All over the place. It gets depressing. I mean, Indian politicians stink, but did we really deserve this creature?

@FaheemMitha Do you consider him as bad as our orange man?

And we've got 4 more years of him. Never mind the pandemic.

@Mitch Dunno. It's a stiff competition. At least the Republicans aren't full-blown fascists.

They are pretty horrible, though.

Oh, Moorcock

Tolkien's critic

@M.A.R. Well, Sam probably is the real hero, if one is keeping track.

7:12 PM

Wiki:epic pooh

After all, Frodo fails. But there is some British class stuff in there. Not sure I'm up to disentangling it, though.

I mean, Sam is Frodo's servant. So he saves the day. But doesn't really get much credit for it. As far as I can tell.

Frodo is considered to be the "Ringbearer".

@FaheemMitha he just doesn't have the confidence

@FaheemMitha yes, sure

And he's probably as heroic as anyone in the story. He doesn't exactly have the training or temperament to deal with this sort of thing, but still fights off evil giant spiders and orcs and what not for love of his master.

"Epic Pooh" is a 1978 essay by the British science fiction writer Michael Moorcock, which reviews the field of epic fantasy, with a particular focus on epic fantasy written for children. In it Moorcock critiques J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings for its politically conservative assumptions and its Escapism. Originally written for the British Science Fiction Association, "Epic Pooh" was revised for inclusion in Moorcock's 1989 book Wizardry and Wild Romance. == Summary == Moorcock criticises a group of celebrated writers of epic fantasy for children, including Tolkien, C. S. Lewis,...

7:16 PM

Part of the problem with LOTR is that it doesn't correspond very well to anything resembling real life.

All the big shots are really nice and wise and stuff.

Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn etc.

Apparently none of them have an agenda.

All very unrealistic.

Oh, and Galadriel.

On one side, near-perfect Evil. And on the other, these super-nice, smart and upright people.

Basically zero correspondence to anything in recorded history.

@FaheemMitha What about her?

@FaheemMitha that sits pretty okay with me TBH. OTOH you have GoT rip offs that paint everything as dark and gruesome and everyone as having an agenda while it's all really a ploy to pull off smart-sounding reversals and plot twists. It feels nice to walk on hard ground.

@Mitch She's also super cool. Like all the others I mentioned.

@M.A.R. Well, ok. I'm just saying it's not very realistic. I realise it's just fantasy.

I've never watched GOT, nor read the books. What I've heard about it doesn't sound very appealing.

Today's entertainment actually lacks some black and white. Everything fades in shades of grey (pun unintended) and we get Gen Z nerds exclaiming with entitlement how much smarter we are just because we're more suspicious of everyone

I'm not particularly a big fantasy fan. Though when I was young I did enjoy children's fantasy.

7:25 PM

@FaheemMitha the books are really great, for the most part. They're just very long though.

E.g. Diana Wynne Jones, who probably isn't that well-known.

@M.A.R. Ok. I think I've read a few thing by that author. Didn't he write a lot of horror fiction?

@FaheemMitha oh as in being unrealistically good?

@M.A.R. Black and white has a lot of problems.

I'm trying to resist painting the criticism as "haters", and I have a few grievances of myself of course. But it's fashionable to hate popular stuff, if you know what I mean.

Perhaps a more fundamental problem is the constant search for the antagonist in a narrative.

@Mitch Well, excellent in all possible ways.

7:27 PM

When Cerb says GoT is just soap opera for him that stance is pretty understandable. But a lot of criticism comes off as petty to me.

@M.A.R. Criticism of what?

@M.A.R. Well, @Cerb is someone who was a huge fan of Downton Abbey. It doesn't get much soapier than that.

@FaheemMitha well, Galadriel's hidden desires were revealed. She was kinda psychopathic about making everyone love her. It's just that she had that urge in check.

@Mitch He does do it, though.

@M.A.R. I must have missed that part.

@FaheemMitha of something like Game of Thrones.

7:29 PM

@M.A.R. Well, as long as the criticism is founded on something, I don't have a problem with it.

@FaheemMitha when she was near that fountain with hallucinogenic water and tried to show Frodo (?) his future before their departure from Lorien.

Most popular stuff is not very good. Much of it is terrrible.

@M.A.R. Do you have a quote?

Sure

Actually Tolkien looks pretty good compared to a lot of popular culture nowadays.

> Instead of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen, not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Tempestuous as the sea, and stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!

This was when Frodo even offered her the ring, if I'm not mistaken

7:32 PM

@M.A.R. Oh, right. Yes, I thought you might be referring to that.

But if I recall correctly, that was her prediction of what she would become once she had been corrupted by the ring. Not as she was "now".

I suppose one could argue that it's "in there".

This was to show that even pure hearts or whatever are not temptation-proof. Also a commonly iterated concept in religious contexts

@M.A.R. Yes, I suppose that's true, within the context of the story.

And in real life as well, of course.

BBL dinner

Except nobody actually falls, except Boromir, perhaps. And he's depicted as being kind of a shady character from the get-go. Not exactly one of the "good guys".

Hmm, a quote from "Hardings Luck". I'd forgotten that existed. Though both it and its companion, "The House of Arden", are very good books.

(Was reading tha Moorcock essay.)

Junior Wells' Chicago Blues Band -- Help Me (A Tribute to Sonny Boy Williamson)

He was definitely a giant in the blues. If you're interested in the Chicago blues you should check out that 3-album set "Chicago The Blues Today" ("Today" being 1964).

7:46 PM

Having quickly read through the Moorcock essay, I'm not clear on the points he is trying to make. Except that he prefers some writers over others.

@FaheemMitha What area of India are you in?

@Robusto Bombay.

So do you speak Telugu?

@Robusto No.

What's your first language?

Most of the Indian developers I worked with seemed to be from that area and I thought they mostly spoke Telugu. Of course I couldn't tell that for myself.

7:49 PM

@Robusto Only English, really. I can sort of fake Hindi. But only very badly.

@FaheemMitha Heh. No wonder you're so good at it.

Most educated Indians can speak at least two languages. Some more.

Yeah, so I understand.

India is a very polylingual place.

I think I've got some psychological issues with India and Indian languages.

Some kind of resistance?

7:51 PM

As a child I constantly failed all my Hindi exams. As an adult I find this recollection mildly puzzling.

@Robusto Indeed, some kind of resistance.

It was a long time ago, but I'm still not sure what was going on there.

I only passed my final exam because my mother hired a Hindi tutor who gave me the final exam in advance, to practice with. And yes, that was illegal. But it also was, and is, India.

Hmm.

My working hypothesis is that I don't like the cultural constructs that come along with Indian languages. Then again, I know of foreigners who speak Hindi and other Indian languages fluently.

@FaheemMitha But don't all languages contain cultural constructs?

@Robusto Yes, of course they do. I just didn't like the Indian ones.

What stood out for particular revulsion?

7:55 PM

I mean, I still don't. Though I admit I don't see why it would actually stop me from learning a language well enough to pass some exames. Which isn't a very difficult thing, in the broad scheme of things.

@Robusto Indians are very religious. There's a lot of stuff about God and duty. Insert retching noises here.

Yeah, I'm not religious either, nor do I tolerate it much.

This seems to be a general thing. Talk to an Indian for any length of time, at any rate, someone brought up on traditional lines, and he or she will infallibly drag God into the conversation.

They are also very superstitious. E.g. astrology, which is mainstream in India.

Yeah, I never had much of that kind of discussion with any of them.

There is a lot of - this is how things are done, this is not how things are done.

Very closed mind-sets.

Though I suppose even Western culture has its share of that.

So I may be showing my prejudices. I don't know.

There were basically two kinds of Indians I worked with: the very talented and conscientious (most of them), and the somewhat less talented and not at all conscientious. I preferred the latter. Same is true for American devs, btw.

7:59 PM

But I've always thought of English as a very idealogically uncluttered language. At least, that's my perception. Which is subjective, by definition.

Yeah. But when you say "good-bye" don't forget there's the "God be with you" cultural artifact still contained within.

@Robusto Oh. Why is that?

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