English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:51 AM

Is the verb fetch (in the sense of "go for and bring back") comparatively rare in AmE? Some dictionaries mark it as "especially BrE". I'm inclined to agree with that, based on my very limited experience with the dialects. How does it sound in AmE anyway? What connotations does it bear?

tchrist

@Færd Canine ones?

No, I don't believe it's British.

Færd

Neither do I. Only esp so, perhaps.

@tchrist Some leaner dictionaries.

ldoceonline.com/dictionary/fetch

oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/fetch?q=fetch

etc.

tchrist

Once again I am accused of being a servant of the Crown!

Tonepoet

I think it's more likely to be reserved for playing fetch with the dog in Am. Eng. but I'm not completely sure.

tchrist

cries havoc

Could you fetch me a pair of scissors?

Nice doggie!

Don't run.

Færd

12:58 AM

So to you it doesn't sound special at all?

Used in a narrower context than go get in any way?

tchrist

It's specialler than git or bring.

Færd

@Tonepoet I see. I've heard it used for dogs in AmE.

tchrist

Go find me a blah and bring it to me.

Færd

Maybe reminds one of dogs?

Not you, probably.

tchrist

My what a fetching young lad, he is!

Seems like a nice word.

I'm trying to figure out why it's a causative of fit.

Færd

1:00 AM

@tchrist Not for nothing, eh?

Tonepoet

@tchrist I wish ngrams had a word-series length that was longer than five so I could compare "Could you go get me a pair of scissors."

Færd

Sometime when you say that I recall you saying that you read Lord of the Rings thirteen times in your teens. Or earlier.

Not judging in any way. Just a recollection.

tchrist

By 13.

Færd

@Tonepoet I think go fetch me should do the trick.

Tonepoet

@Færd I would prefer fetch upon consideration of the matter, but that's not the point of using ngrams.

Færd

1:04 AM

You want to add other words to exclude other senses of the verb, right?

Tonepoet

I want to compare how common it is to ask the question as tchrist phrased it, with an alternative phrasing that excludes the word fetch of my choosing, and compare the regional results.

Maybe it'd work better with sugar, since that uses less words than "A pair of scissors".

Færd

Fetch me some sugar? Does one fetch sugar?

tchrist

> Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw.

Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water.

Færd

Is that from a nursery rhyme? Some of them have a traditional feel about them.

tchrist

Aye, it is that.

Tonepoet

1:11 AM

@Færd Yes.

Færd

Garner's addresses this issue. Beginning:

tchrist

Jack and Jill (nursery rhyme)

"Jack and Jill" (sometimes "Jack and Gill", particularly in earlier versions) is a traditional English nursery rhyme. The Roud Folk Song Index classifies this tune and its variations as number 10266. The rhyme dates back at least to the 18th century and exists with different numbers of verses each with a number of variations. Several theories have been advanced to explain its origins and to suggest meanings for the lyrics. Only a few more verses have been added to the rhyme, including a version with a total of 15 stanzas in a chapbook of the 19th century. The dab verse, probably added as part...

Færd

> fetch (= to get and bring to) was once a fully respectable word ...

> ...But in AmE (much more than in BrE), the word has undergone depreciation.

tchrist

Seems dubious.

Perhaps I'm just too educated to spreak Amerigan anymorer.

Færd

Perhaps.

> For whatever reason, the word now has associations of hick talk

tchrist

1:15 AM

I'm quite certain my family would use it without regret.

Færd

And it cites some TV shows and films as triggers of this trend.

@tchrist I guess I'm going to do that too.

tchrist

@Færd I watch no TV, and few films.

I do, however, read a great deal.

Tonepoet

@Færd Is The Simpsons among them?

Færd

No. The Beverly Hillbillies.

tchrist

It is possible that the post-literate have passed me by.

@Færd Really? That's hilarious!

I'm not saying it's wrong.

Just that it made me guffaw audibly.

viddles

Good words on that show. :)

gazintas

Færd

1:20 AM

Was the show capable of making long-lasting changes?

tchrist

2 gazinta 4 two times.

Tonepoet

@Færd Hmm, my mind wandered to Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel as soon as you mentioned hicks.

tchrist

@Færd Color me suspicious.

Færd

What color would that be?

Tonepoet

Færd

1:22 AM

I know some platitudes and idioms that originate from shows shown decades ago.

Tonepoet

@Færd I wouldn't be surprised if it made some words seem hickish. It was a very popular show.

tchrist

@Færd Used to watch infinite reruns of those after school up at Grandma's house when I was quite young.

Tonepoet

Reruns were playing on Nick at Night well into the 1990s.

Færd

@tchrist So you're a living counterexample to that argument.

Cerberus

> Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it;

The Silmarillion, ch.23, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin.

tchrist

1:24 AM

@Tonepoet Early 70s it was for me.

Cerberus

This is about Ulmo's advice to evacuate Gondolin.

> though even

tchrist

It is.

Cerberus

Are you familiar with this construction, for even though?

tchrist

Not especially.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Regardless, the show has decades of staying power to influence multiple generations' perception of what constitutes "hick speak".

Cerberus

1:25 AM

It did not throw me off, but neither do I remember having seen it before.

tchrist

But the whole passage is in an authentically archaic register, everything well-formed, so I trust his ear on that.

I wonder if "though even" is in in the KJV.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus I'm not sure if it's synonymous with even though, but I've heard "though even" before.

tchrist

It seems more often used to mean "although even" these days.

google.com/…

Tonepoet

@tchrist I was thinking the same thing.

Færd

Are we sure it doesn't in that passage?

Cerberus

1:29 AM

@tchrist So do I.

tchrist

> The whole panic is based on a falsehood; and, though even by falsehood Truth sometimes gains admission, where by her own unaided efforts she would knock in vain, yet this is not a consequence which the Essayists ought seriously to have ...

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Of course it is common now, but not in this sense.

Otherwise it wouldn't be significant.

@tchrist I would read that like modern though even, not the Tolkienesque kind.

Færd

(Not me)

Cerberus

@Færd I am?

Færd

(Me too, pretty much, now that I read it again)

tchrist

1:32 AM

@Cerberus I think you're right.

Cerberus

@Færd (Why not?)

(OK.)

tchrist

> though even a Vala should gainsay it

> even though a Vala should gainsay it

Cerberus

That is the only interpretation possible.

tchrist

I feel like what he wrote makes sense but I cannot recall other instances of that formulation.

Færd

What's a Vala? (if that doesn't betray too much ignorance)

Cerberus

1:34 AM

Same here.

One of the Powers.

@Færd A God.

Valar = Powers

Or perhaps an angel.

Arch-angel.

1:34 AM

Ah. Thanks.

Cerberus

Yes.

Basically someone who must be right.

tchrist

More like Greek gods, but Christian.

In a sense.

Pre-Christian. Not incompatible.

The One appointed them stewards.

There were 14 Valar and Valier.

Something like that.

Cerberus

Indeed.

Færd

Then a Vala must be reckoned with, and even a Vala doesn't fit its grandeur.

tchrist

Not counting He Who Arises in Might.

Cerberus

1:37 AM

Tolkien seems to have fused the desert god with European polytheism.

tchrist

lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Valar

Cerberus

@Færd Indeed, it would mean the opposite of what one would expect.

tchrist

This is like Feänor's terrible oath.

Færd

Unless there are voices higher than a Vala's who can gainsay things?

Cerberus

There are none in that context.

tchrist

1:39 AM

@Færd There is only One.

tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Oath_of_Fëanor

Cerberus

Ulmo warned Turgon and his warning is as good as truth.

> So far as the Great Eagles go - at the very least they were extremely favoured creatures of Manwe; His mesengers with His protection on them. It is also almost certain that some of their number - if not all all - were actually Maiar of Manwe wearing the fana of birds. Therefore the degree to which Melkor could interfere with their duty or even harm them was extremely limited.

I didn't know the eagles could be maiar.

tchrist

@Cerberus Other way around.

Cerberus

Lesser gods/angels.

@tchrist Both ways.

tchrist

The Ainur were not bound to a single mortal raiment.

fana = mortal raiment

Cerberus

"It is also almost certain that some of their number - if not all all - were actually Maiar of Manwe wearing the fana of birds" - it's actually almost certain that they weren't. — user8719 Dec 13 '14 at 1:05

Snappy word-play old @Darth, but inaccurate. It is explicitly stated in Morgoth's Ring that animals did not speak. The only way Tolkien could explain this away is by saying they were maia. He was even questioned about this in his letters. — user38114 Dec 13 '14 at 1:10

tchrist

1:42 AM

Oh I'm thinking of hroä.

Beren and Lúthien travelled once as a wolf and a great bat respectively, and I believe Elwing was a sea-mew for a time.

The Hobbit has various birds which spoke, although not all understood all of them.

> It is a fair tale, though it is sad, as are all the tales of Middle-earth.

> 'I will tell you the tale of Tinúviel,' said Strider, 'in brief — for it is a long tale of which the end is not known; and there are none now, except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old. It is a fair tale, though it is sad, as are all the tales of Middle-earth, and yet it may lift up your hearts.' He was silent for some time, and then he began not to speak but to chant softly:

Færd

@tchrist Fana is Arabic for mortality.

tchrist

elfdict.com/w/fana

@Færd Is it really?

Færd

It is. Maybe impertinent to your fana though. Don't know.

tchrist

@Færd I bet you're onto something.

He plucked things from everywhere.

Færd

Good for him. Needs quite a brain.

tchrist

1:53 AM

Irish nasc for "ring" became nazg for the same in the language of Mordor.

There are countless many of those one can find if one looks hard enough.

But he hid many.

Ilúvatar is the All-Father, that is, God Himself.

I believe his Quenta word for tale is related to the cuentos of his Spanish housekeeper when he was very young, something like that.

But it is tied up with Quendi, the speakers.

Loquendi?

(cuentos de hada are fairytales)

Cerberus

The two might be related.

I believe cuenta is related to count.

Latin contari, to tell or count.

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

But it seems less likely that loqui/locu- should be related to cont-.

Dutch has kond-.

Which is no doubt related to cont-.

Probably derived from the Latin.

tchrist

I'm always surprised at how well you know Latin given how little of it there is in Dutch compared with in English. :)

(I know it doesn't work that way.)

Cerberus

2:09 AM

And I suspect loqu/loc- is related to Latin lego "read, collect" and Greek lego "speak".

Well, I learned English partly through Latin.

tchrist

recollections

Cerberus

And it is a self-reinfocring circle, with Latin and English and French all helping each the others.

tchrist

It is.

Cerberus

Maybe collect is related, it's possible.

tchrist

It's why you can flow between Romance tongues with so little comparative trouble.

Cerberus

2:10 AM

Yeah.

tchrist

They reinforce each other. If you know how the subjunctive mood works in one, you know a lot about how it works in all of them. Not all, but a lot.

Cerberus

And I believe Latin has an extra advantage over the new languages.

If you know the Ur-form, you can trace it forward in time, which I think is easier than e.g. backward from French to Latin and then forward again to Spanish.

tchrist

I would think so.

Cerberus

Despite the Sprachbund.

tchrist

For the route back from French is not so easily trodden as the way forward to Spanish.

Cerberus

2:12 AM

Indeed not.

And I think from Latin to French is easier than the other way around.

I don't think French has often helped me understand Latin.

But the other way around, very often.

tchrist

There's a lot in modern Romance that makes sense only if you think about how it works in Latin.

Cerberus

Yeah.

tchrist

The tu-imperatives not changing the stem vowel, for example, nor having an -s.

They never ever tell you "why" it works that way.

And yeah, I know: vas-y.

Cerberus

There will always be exceptions.

Just win baby

2:28 AM

As they say, exceptions are the rule.

NVZ

3:49 AM

@Tonepoet "I'd argue that in single-word request, the originality lies in finding the word that best fits the context." in someone else's words.

SmokeDetector

5:14 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in answer, pattern-matching website in answer: Looking for a word like "gearhead" but for gadgets by mcafeesupport on english.SE

user288256

8:37 AM

Is it just me or watching parkour and/or free running is very soothing?

NVZ

9:35 AM

Attn: Any moderator who's online.

How was this post deleted? I can't see who deleted it.

english.stackexchange.com/review/low-quality-posts/241661

There is only 2 'recommend deletion's from review

And it is not deleted by owner, 3 senior members, or by any particular moderator.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be deleted. I'm curious to find out how it was deleted.

For questions, at least, it may show 'deleted by Community', which I can't see here.

For posts marked spam or offensive, there will be a note under it.

I see no explanation given here.

@tchrist you here?

@AndrewLeach or you?

Thanks in advance. :)

Andrew Leach

@NVZ The question was deleted, which deletes all its answers.

NVZ

10:02 AM

@AndrewLeach thanks. I should've checked that possibility.

Tonepoet

1:27 PM

@NVZ Part of it, yes. Proving that the word is the one that best matches the context is of importance too though. It depends upon how closely the intended meaning and the definition match, as well as how likely the questioner is to have considered and dismissed it beforehand. The cameleer definition is a nearly perfect match ("driving" a camel can be different from riding it), that's just obscure enough that it's a valid suggestion without further explanation.

The more distant we grow from that type of answer, the more explanation is necessary, and I think more explanation is typically preferable to less when it can be provided.

Mitch

@Ghalib It's you. Just you.

user288256

@Mitch Okay. But why are you invisible?

user288256

Never mind

user288256

@Mitch So what do you get kick out of watching? Documentaries?

user288256

Don't get me wrong, some documentaries are quite good.

Tonepoet

1:45 PM

@tchrist I missed this the first time, somehow. Maybe I just tune out oneboxed wiki articles now. Regardless, Jack and Jill is a rhyme everybody knows, but I'm not so sure it's the most persuasive evidence of modern usage. Who still says "crown" to mean top of the head?

The vinegar and brown paper bit is also obsolete.

tchrist

> Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw

Tonepoet

@tchrist I never heard that one before.

tchrist

Rush-The Trees (Lyrics)

►

Kit Z. Fox

Ah, Rush.

Tonepoet

I'm not sure if we're supposed to sympathize with the Oaks or the Maples. XP

user288256

2:00 PM

@Tonepoet They even teach Jack and Jill to people here. At the time I read it in school here I was so bad at English (I was little) that the rhyme always went way over my head.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib I considering that they're nursery rhymes, I don't think that's all too uncommon of an experience even in countries where English is the native language. They tend to be the sort of verse first recited before a child can recognize words, which I suppose helps to develop their initial vocabulary.

user288256

@Tonepoet oh I see, I feel better now.

Tonepoet

Note that among the other recommendations, the age guide for Schoolastic's The Real Mother Goose includes "PREK-K", and what I suppose that means is "Pre-kindergarten through kindergarten".

Mitch

@Tonepoet The Elms are for themselves and don't want to be bothered

@Ghalib paint drying. grass growing. ... wait.... nope, I thought one blade was just a bit ahead there. ... wait... nope.... nothing again.

user288256

Yeah, I mean if I am speaking another language at home, and I was already struggling with Urdu, it is not an easy language why would I feel like learning words like "pail (of water)", "tumbling", "caper" etc. (from 'Jack and Jill')

user288256

2:15 PM

I'm talking about the past. I'm much better now.

Mitch

@Ghalib SOome of it I find extremely anxiety provoking. Like when they're jumping among concrete walls with iron bars on top where the margin for error is very slim

@Ghalib those nursery rhymes are full of archaic vocabulary that no one ever uses.

ever

user288256

@Mitch Is "paint drying" a thing? I think I have heard that somewhere else too.

Mitch

What's a 'peck'? How many pickled peppers can you really eat at one sitting?

At any sitting.

Tonepoet

@Mitch Do you mean peck as in a kiss?

People still use that one occasionally, at least in in "peck on the cheek".

Mitch

@Ghalib Yes. Watching paint drying is considered something to compare against when something is boring. "Listening to my relative talk about his insurance business is as exciting as watching paint dry"

Tonepoet

2:18 PM

Oh no,

You're referring to peter piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.

Silly me.

Mitch

@Tonepoet No, as in 1/4 of a bushel.

As in the nursery rhyme about Peter Piper

Yes

Tonepoet

Did he eat them?

Mitch

How many (dry) quarts are in a peck?

@Tonepoet No. He picked them.

user288256

@Mitch Those videos you see on Youtube are mostly their CVs, it is like a show off of their skill. They have had thousands of hours of practice in special parkour gyms so they are used to it and enjoy doing it. It is a peace of cake for them.

Mitch

Presumably by taste or visual inspection.

user288256

2:20 PM

@Mitch True

Tonepoet

@Mitch That's probably why I was confused. You're mentioning events that never happened in the rhyme. XP

Mitch

@Ghalib Also, they've spent countless additional hours in emergency room waiting rooms.

user288256

haha

user288256

yeah

Mitch

@Tonepoet ??? I have referred to nothing outside of the rhyme itself

@Ghalib Which is part of the learning experience.

Tonepoet

2:22 PM

@Mitch Sure you didn't. XP

Mitch

"Don't do this. Don't do that because it hurts. Really, do not do that because... well I can't remember exactly but it has something to do with why my eyes sometimes go crossed when I hear a bone crunching noise.:

user288256

@Tonepoet I guess it is time you changed your smiley to "Win 7"

user288256

=)

Mitch

@Ghalib haha. because no one knows what XP is supposed to mean as an emoticon.

@Ghalib If the free runner is making smooth transitions from one place to the next and taking dive rolls easily even on large drops, then yes it is exciting. But soothing is not the first word I would use to describe it.

Tonepoet

@Mitch It's not wholly original, but I suppose if you're not familiar with anime facial expressions, the X part doesn't make too much sense.

Mitch

2:26 PM

Or the P

Tonepoet

Everybody knows what the P is from :-P

Mitch

Sure, it looks ike a tongue. But nobody know what it means.

Tonepoet

It's a composite of that and >_<.

Mitch

whereas the problem with emoji is not what the (much more detailed) images are supposed to mean (it's laughing with tears - obviously so funny it makes you cry). BUt they're so small, you can't tell which emoji is being used.

Tonepoet

And I doth declare that it's not wholly original:

Mitch

2:28 PM

@Tonepoet Yeah, that one makes no sense either

@Tonepoet That person is dead? How morbid

What kind of emotion is that to tell someone.

"What you said makes me want to be dead"

Tonepoet

Dead eyes are two xes Mitch: x_x

user288256

@Mitch It is soothing, and I'm proud of my vocabulary. I don't know about you but anti-depressants release in my body when I watch a good parkour video, so yes, quite soothing. I'm thinking of a good alternative word instead of "soothing" though. Which word would you use instead?

Mitch

Hey, and if we're complaining about communication devices, how about the kids these days with their hipping and a hopping. You call that music? I call it static. It's as entertaining as watching grass dry.

2

Tonepoet

I wholeheartedly agree with what you say in jest. XP

Mitch

@Ghalib I did not mean to impugn your vocabulary. I took your usage at face value. Soothing is like drinking warm milk tea with rice pudding. like rubbing aloe into a sore muscle. like listening to a haydn quartet while lying under a wool blanket and... zzzzz

user288256

2:34 PM

@Tonepoet The "P" tongue in the picture looks like a flag.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib It does doesn't it?

Mitch

but parkour is like...

Tonepoet

The problem is that other graphical renditions center the tongue, which I feel to be an even greater artistic gaffe .

Mitch

Renoir is well known for intentionally marring his masterpieces with tongue-centering. He believed an attempt at perfection was an insult to the gods.

but we were talking about parkour, which is more an emulation of rhesus monkeys traveling above rooftops in India

I heard that the inventor of parkour (if it can be said to have been invented) patterned his cations after the monkeys after visiting India.

Parkour is like jumping off a roof with a pogo stick onto a trampoline after drinking 5 shots of 5 hour adrenaline drinks... while tazering oneself.

Now that I think about that, that's probably not a metaphor at all. somebody has probably tried that and youtube'd it.

without the tazer. i added that because why not.

user288256

@Mitch I have never had "warm milk tea with rice pudding" so I wouldn't know. Maybe because that diet is appropriate for cold weather.

Mitch

2:44 PM

@Ghalib Me neither. but it sure sounds soothing doesn't it?

Kit Z. Fox

remarkably so

user288256

@Mitch Um no, because I hate the sound of "warm milk" here, because it is so hot here. I always go for cold milk. Except in winters of course.

Mitch

oh... and under that blanket with you is a pile of purring napping kittens

user288256

So that's only for three months. The other nine months I'm drinking cold milk.

user288256

Or milk at room temperature.

Mitch

2:46 PM

Except dangit you're all anxiety-ridden now because you have to get up to pee, but that would wake up the kittens. argh

user288256

Our weathers are so different, there is no comparison

user288256

Hence our diet is different too

user288256

I guess

Mitch

@Ghalib You just compared them

Like when people say, "That's not right, you're comparing apples and oranges" I always think, "well yeah, they're both fruit, both sweet, but one you have to peel and the other you don't"

so you can compare them

@Ghalib wait...don't you drink hot tea in the hot summer?

or hot 9 months?

user288256

@Mitch Is that your strawman? I mean... you are right I guess. =)

Mitch

2:51 PM

@Ghalib No, it's my sophistical argument, intended to confuse the crap out of people.

user288256

@Mitch I do. That's different. It's tea! And I can't drink cold milk tea man.

user288256

@Mitch And here I thought I was the smug one. xD

Mitch

@Cerberus I think you're thinking like this. There's a lot in there that is reasonable but the first two sentences are wrong (not 'most') or misleading.

@Ghalib so, what other than parkour is soothing to you?

user288256

@Tonepoet You can use "xD" as well. It looks good.