English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@KitZ.Fox Why not?

@Meysam Oh, I'm sorry, I meant that as an expression of pleasant surprise, not a question.

@KitZ.Fox :)

I don't know the meaning of "material" in "material non-compliance". Could somebody please explain that?

"Anyone who has rented an apartment understands that, by signing a lease, they agree to pay rent in a timely manner and to comply with all other terms stated in the contract. But landlords also have certain obligations, particularly with respect to habitability standards, as well as local and state housing codes (see State Property & Real Estate Laws for a directory). When a landlord fails to meet these standards despite reasonable requests by the tenant, he or she may be sued for "mate…

Do you understand noncompliance? Is it the material part that's confusing?

What that paragraph means is that a lease obligates you to pay rent, but it also obligates the landlord to provide you with a suitable place to live.

So if your roof is leaking on your kitchen table, and you let your landlord know, he has to fix it or else you can sue because he is breaking the lease.

6:11 PM

@KitZ.Fox Yes I understand the meaning of "noncompliance", the problem is non of the definisions of material I've looked up in oxford's online dictionary fit here.

But you can't sue for things like "I wanted new carpet and he wouldn't install it" because that doesn't impact habitability.

Material Breach
A violation of contract that is severe enough to undermine the entire agreement.

^that

from nolo.com/dictionary/material-breach-term.html

So, material here means contract?

6:12 PM

"material" really means "significant"

a Breach of contract can be material or immaterial.

I think Meysam is confused because he thinks material is a noun here.

It is not. It's an adjective.

oh, I see. Yeah, it's not "material" like "things you make stuff out of".

An immaterial breach is one that's not worth arguing about, a material breach is a significant problem or concern.

Yup! "significant" makes sense here...

Thanks everybody, it's clear now :)

Just for completeness' sake, it's also definition 2 at merriam-webster.com/dictionary/material : having real importance or great consequences

6:19 PM

@Hellion Yes I saw that, but didn't notice that "material" could be adjective here.

English is sneaky that way. :-)

user227867

As sneaky as my sneakers.

Also, hello @Hellion. I was a little surprised you didn't nominate for moderator.

@JasperLoy And as flip-flops as my sandals.

user227867

@Meysam I never wear sandals or slippers, always shoes with socks. Otherwise, my feet stinks.

6:23 PM

@JasperLoy Even on casual sundays?

Hey, @KitZ.Fox. I did give it serious consideration, but ultimately I decided I probably would not be active enough. Everybody else is all "I spend hours a day on the site" and I'm much more of "I poke in for 1-2 minutes at a time over the course of a few hours"

user227867

@Meysam When I go out. I wear nothing at home, of course.

Also I hate dealing with conflict. :-)

user227867

@Hellion Did you black out the eyes using GIMP?

@KitZ.Fox what about if you're answering something you expect to be closed?

6:24 PM

@JasperLoy You live alone? ;)

No, that is a genuine, unaltered photograph. :-)

@Mitch Then don't. Or don't get pissed when I delete it.

user227867

I don't like spicy food @mitch. And recently the KFC here is not good. The meat is often undercooked and bloody inside.

@Hellion Your eyes are all in black?

@Hellion Fair enough. I don't spend hours moderating, but a couple of minute spurts daily is probably not quite enough devotion.

6:25 PM

@KitZ.Fox i had you at cop out, but lost me at 'want the satisfaction of ...'. I don't get that. If you don't expect it to stay (given that it's a compliment) then you wouldn't expect a comment upvote.

user227867

If you get pissed, just go to the loo and piss, then all will be fine.

@JasperLoy and @Meysam I suppose you could say I blacked my eyes out using full-cover contact lenses.

user227867

@Hellion I see. What does Hellion mean? Is it a name in a movie?

@Mitch Well, see, I think people do want comment upvotes. And to have snappy jokes and quips and whatnot. If we don't stay diligent on that, it starts a race of who can come up with the funniest pun or whatever.

Then there are 34 comments that are:

@KitZ.Fox I thought it was 'material' as in 'substantive; definitional; central'

6:27 PM

adequate

@JasperLoy A Hellion is a wild, uncontrollable troublemaker.

sufficient

verbose if you want a thing like that

haha, you said thing like that.

Just an ordinary word that happens to appeal to me for more than one reason. :-)

user227867

@Hellion I see. I thought it was some character from Hell.

etc.

Yeah, I spent a lot of time following Hellion around the site until I realized he was not actually one.

Which is how I noticed how helpful he was.

6:29 PM

@JasperLoy I expect Hell is part of the etymology of the word.

Which then led to the mild surprise that he didn't run for mod.

@KitZ.Fox I haven't noticed so it must mean I don't care. But what do you mean by 'Then don't'

user227867

The mod of -1 is 1.

user227867

@Hellion You have not changed that pic or name for years, I recall.

@Mitch I mean, "then don't comment if you think it's something that will get closed".

6:32 PM

@KitZ.Fox So your recommendation is to not comment either way?

(with answer like comments)

user227867

I dislike comments. They become too chatty.

user227867

I also think people should not post answers in the comments.

user227867

If they don't want to post an answer, then don't.

@JasperLoy I think they give the nuance that the formal answer usually fails to give.

@Mitch Yes. Or maybe comment after the question is actually closed, if that's something that can be done.

user227867

6:33 PM

The thing about posting half-answers in comments is that people can be misled by half-answers.

Because what generally happens is a slew of comment-answers and the question doesn't actually get closed.

especially comments on poor answers or for imperfect questions

user227867

And when people post pseudo-answers as comments, they can just post nonsense.

@Mitch But then those answers and questions should be edited for improvement or a new answer or question posted for contrast.

@JasperLoy Yes, but you can never stop people from doing it.

6:34 PM

there's more nonsense questions and nonsense answers already, that nonsense comments aren't as much of a concern

@Mitch That's where you're wrong.

user227867

@DEAD So when I see people post many comments on a question, I just post an answer.

A wrong answer has an indication called score.

A clueless person has no way to know which comment is wrong.

user227867

A wrong comment has no indication at all.

I recently suggested a solution to the problems with comments.

Because I do think comments are a problem.

user227867

6:36 PM

User A: Hi, we are not a proofreading service. User B: I love it when you say that @userA This is an example of useless comments from User B

What's worse, bad comments under the question always appear on top.

Even on top of an answer with 100-something votes.

Someone landing from Google will only read the wrong comment, and close the tab.

Yay for learning something new everyday.

@KitZ.Fox This'd be nice, but only per site.

Somewhere like Workplace would benefit a lot.

The comment privilege encourages community members to view posts as belonging to someone else instead of to the community.

user227867

Or User A: Questions about commas are easily searchable on the internet. Again, useless comment because questions about commas are very difficult to answer correctly, and lots of stuff online is not accurate. Trivialises a genuine question.

@DEAD How am I wrong?

The solution I propose would encourage community members to use the queues and to maintain content.

user227867

6:40 PM

@Mitch Mitch fell into a ditch when it was pitch dark, and then he got hitched.

limited # of comments?

@Mitch Please read my next messages.

@JasperLoy There are other words for that.

@Mitch Yes. And review queue standard comments don't count toward your total.

@Mitch Mitch got Mitched?

6:41 PM

That my siblings used. All of them

@DEAD In intelligent but in knowing person can't tell either. People vote for things they like, not things that are right.

user227867

@DEAD DEAD ate the bread and the lead on his head, and then fell dead.

@JasperLoy @JasperLoy You are correct, I like both my name and my pic and see no need to tweak either. :-)

user227867

@Hellion I think you look very handsome, so there is no need to change the pic. =)

@JasperLoy Now I just need to change myself to look more like that picture again....

user227867

@Hellion Ah I see. All things decay...

6:46 PM

@Hellion Drop me a line if you figure that one out.

@terdon You can always try to look as handsome as me

Well, no point in setting unattainable goals. I'd settle for losing the 30something pot belly I've developed :P

30 tons?

Tsk. Watch it, kid.

:P

user227867

Raindrops are falling outside.

6:50 PM

@terdon I'd ask which thirtysomething's potbelly you've acquired but I never watched the show and don't know any character names anyway.

sigh. Bloody language geeks, we're all the same.

user227867

Are there any reasons to buy a Mac instead of a PC?

@JasperLoy Them's fightin' words!

@Hellion Actually, all I remember from the show is that my parents used to watch it back when they were 30something. I've been meaning to watch it and see if I'll find it funny and/or relevant today.

user227867

Mac looks beautiful, and I never used it before.

6:52 PM

@JasperLoy Yes, but it all depends on various things like i) what you want it for; ii) your level of computer literacy and iii) your budget.

@JasperLoy Mac will be similarer to linux.

especially the ... gnome desktop? I can't remember the things anymore.

user227867

Yeah, I read about the facts. I was thinking of hearing non-factual opinions I can't find on the internet, people's emotions in using them.

The PC style desktop was K something? Or maybe just K.

@JasperLoy Macs are for people who don't want to frig with their computer and who don't mind paying for everything.

user227867

@KitZ.Fox KDE.

@JasperLoy Yeah! Thanks.

user227867

6:54 PM

@KitZ.Fox Yes, GNOME.

user227867

I remember Mahnax loves Mac. He doesn't come to chat anymore. I think he is busy with his studies and Maria.

@JasperLoy He deleted his account.

user227867

Oh, OK. I have his email though.

@tchrist It'd be hilarious if @Lawrence beat you.

@JasperLoy OSX is a very decent UNIX and Macs are really excellent pieces of hardware. Those are objective.

6:56 PM

Mac has long been the platform of choice for graphics professionals (photo & video editing, design, etc.)

^^

PC is the choice for tinkerers, customizers, performance-obsessed, gamers, and cost-conscious buyers.

user227867

@KitZ.Fox Back in those days, we had Mahnax and Daniel and a whole bunch of kids in here.

user227867

Those were the days.

@Hellion s/PC/Linux/ Windows is really not the choice for any of those except gamers.

6:59 PM

If you're switching in Linux you also have to switch in "technically savvy" on all descriptions. :-)

Your average cost-conscious buyer probably isn't even aware of Linux.

user227867

They say on the internet, everyone is male. I say on ELU, everyone is a kid. =)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy who says that

Jasper Loy

425 1 7

user227867

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "They"

On the internet, I'm a dog, but nobody knows it.

7:01 PM

jinx

@Hellion True, true. But not so your average tinkerers, customizers, performance-obsessed [. . . ]

/em high-fives @MετάEd

On the internet, I'm secretly a human, but nobody knows it.

Oh hey, aren't the results out?

user227867

Isn't it one more hour?

7:02 PM

Oh. Yes. :(

One more hour.

Should be a little less than.

It's not over until 20:00.

2016 Community Moderator Election
ends in 57 minutes

Oh. Yes. :( indeed

7:02 PM

@MετάEd ASCII art of a fat lady singing?

user227867

I love the Rebecca Black Friday song.

Speaking of, shall we convene in the election room and start up the party?

My predictions are that it's going to be between tchrist, Sumelic and MετάEd.

user227867

Yes, let us depart away.

More probably tchrist than the others.

7:04 PM

Don't count those chickens yet.

Election is far different than primary.

@JasperLoy Huh, so you must really like tone correction software. That song uses it even more than the one you posted the other day.

user227867

@terdon I like all these kid artistes.

Well, I'm hoping Lawrence wins a spot because he has acted in a respectable manner for the past few days I've seen him.

He did well.

@JasperLoy I feel sorry for them. That's no way to grow up.

And they can't even sing.

7:06 PM

They can look cute though.

That they can.

And they can also exude a sense of wholesome goodness and of simple joy in life which I can see appealing to people.

And then when a photographer convinces them to pose topless with a sheet over their breasts at the tender age of 15, we can slut-shame them.

There's that to look forward to as well. Joy.

Because it's not the photographer who is the problem in that scenario.

user227867

I no longer like Justin Bieber. I don't like so many tattoos

7:07 PM

I'm speechless.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy did I ever send you this link

haha love that one.

user227867

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I can't remember, but seeing now.

user227867

ROFLMAO

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 My first question here is going to be "Why did she say 'no eat'?" and then it's going to be promptly closed as a lyrics question...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:13 PM

@Tonepoet It's because of the bad lip reading.

@JasperLoy I think I might have seen it before also, but I didn't remember what it was like.

user227867

@sumelic Have you heard the original Friday song? It's really good. =)

@JasperLoy Hmm. I have heard it. I didn't find it very catchy, but it also didn't seem as horrible as some people make it out to be. Lots of songs have nonsensical lyrics

user227867

@sumelic What is common on youtube is that people make fun of and downvote songs by kids. But actually, I think they are as good as those done by adults.

Can you think of a declarative sentence (not a question) begun with a wh-clause and followed by a plural verb? Some thing like Who ate your pie were my kids. Does the plural sound right there?

7:18 PM

Wouldn't it be whom if it was at the start of the sentence, since it's likely to be a subject around there?

What we have here are failures to communicate.

Pretends as if whom is still a thing.

What is uncountable though. Couldn't do that with where.

@KitZ.Fox Do you think are works better there than is?

Where he went were mysteries.

@Færd I think it works either way.

7:21 PM

Yo0hoo! I think that way too! But I met a native speaker today that told me only the singular works.

@Færd I don't think it sounds right. I'm not sure if it's grammatical, though. Kit Z. Fox gave a good example with "What we have here are failures to communicate."

Another native speaker who disagrees. ^

Thanks.

What those are, are chickens.

But there are some grammatical differences between "who" and "what," I think.

"Who ate your pie were my kids" sounds incomprehensible to me.

7:22 PM

@Tonepoet Sorry, I didn't understand that.

You can do it with what, but not who or where.

@KitZ.Fox Who ate ... not are. :)

Who we are, is Americans.

@Hellion is chickens better?

user227867

I ate the kids.

7:23 PM

Those who ate your pie.

I forget why I said that.

@Færd possibly.

I mean. It's not actually declarative?

I think sentences which aren't interrogative are more likely to start with Whomever.

I guess it's called a cleft sentence.

7:24 PM

@Færd the problem is not with the plural, but with the relative pronoun.

For some reason, you need to use an existential construction. ("there")

As in "Whomever shall touch my Eggo, better leggo, or else..."

It's definitely not ungrammatical to start a declarative sentence with a wh-clause.

@Tonepoet I believe you mean "Whomsoever should touch my Eggo would be better to leggo."

user227867

@Tonepoet The eggs are up the legs, lol.

I remember some relevant comments about relative pronouns on a deleted question. I know I favorited it, but I have too many favorites... is there any way to search your favorite questions?

7:27 PM

@Færd Yes, but you have too many subjects

@KitZ.Fox Whomsoever totally slipped my mind. XD

user227867

I think I never used whom in my writing.

@sumelic Tell me if you find out!

So it seems like you need "whoever" and "wherever" and you can do "whatever" but "what" also works without -ever support.

Which sounds like the basis of an interesting question on EL&U.

> I saw you at the club last night.

> Who you saw was my twin brother, not me.

Whoever doesn't work there.

7:31 PM

Should that be two sentences?

Time travelling to the mother tongue (U Cambridge)

Was just trying to provide context.

Hmm, yeah, it's different speakers so it must.

Okay, so I didn't get a definite answer whether it's correct to say Who ate your pie were my kids.

@Færd Ah, I found it. It was the question about "I am who/whom he loves".

7:33 PM

@Færd I think the second sentence of those two would more likely be "The person who..."

BillJ posted a comment mentioning a difference between "interrogative subordinators" and "relative pronouns."

@sumelic I am a bit shy of rep; I cannot see that one. :)

@Tonepoet But who works there too, right?

I don't know come to think of it.

@Færd No.

@Færd Right; I just wanted to let you know, and post the link so that any higher reps can look at it. I'm still trying to figure out how to describe the information from that thread :) Maybe I should just post a picture of it.

7:35 PM

My thought is that who is acting as a complementizer though....

@KitZ.Fox Yay!

What about this then? :

16 mins ago, by Kit Z. Fox

What we have here are failures to communicate.

[What we have here] is a noun phrase.

I think.

[Who ate your pie] can't be used the same way.

Relevant Google Books page, I think: [Cognitive English Grammar](https://books.google.com/books?id=lx7UAniLfJwC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=headless+relative+clauses+English&source=bl&ots=_gL2BPV_vI&sig=WDRwYiw6wEKeSfklCCxpgtDLoXs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj95ebiotjOAhUE6mMKHS6ZCPcQ6AEIUTAH#v=onepage&q=headless%20relative%20clauses%20English&f=false)
by Günter Radden, René Dirven

@KitZ.Fox Can you pin down the difference between the two noun phrases?

No. I don't know enough about grammar.

I can also say that [Where he went] also doesn't work.

7:39 PM

Thanks you @sumelic!

Oh and @Færd I was looking over Noah Webster's grammar and thought you might be interested in this page, specifically rule IV.

Ah, that.

user227867

In Soviet Russia, grammar knows you!

@Færd Hmm, I wonder why that link didn't work. Anyway, that book mentions that we cannot use "who" in a "headless relative clause" or as a "fused relative pronoun" in the same way as "what." I don't know if that's relevant to your question though.

Thanks you @Tonepoet!

@sumelic Yeah, I guess I have to think about it more. Mine looks like a fused relative.

tchrist

7:45 PM

@Færd con?

@Færd.com looks like a good email address termination.

@tchrist Yeah!

Nobody could type it but eh....

> Can you think of a declarative sentence (not a question) begun with a wh-clause and followed by a plural verb? Some thing like Who ate your pie were my kids. Does the plural sound right there? – Færd

Except, substitute another wh-word (like what for who).

Who seems to cause other distractions.

tchrist

7:49 PM

@sumelic Where pizzas go, crows follow.

I want the wh-clause to be the subject of the plural verb:

31 mins ago, by Kit Z. Fox

What we have here are failures to communicate.

Does that are sound right?

Yes

Does is work better?

If it were a single failure, then yes.

No, this: What we have here is failures to communicate.

7:51 PM

Both work.

@KitZ.Fox oh. the review queue thing sounds complicated. BUt anyway limiting comments is not a bad idea by itself, but I think will have no effect at all on what people say in their comments (or at least won't prevent people giving answer-comments, because those are usually the first commens rather than after a string of back and forth)

Failures is semantically less likely.

Failures is fixed. We're talking about is and are.

I know, but that fact influences the whole sentence.

I didn't understand what you said then.

7:54 PM

Because failures is less likely, is failures becomes less...expected.

What do you mean it is less likely?

@KitZ.Fox did?

@Cerberus Ah.

@Mitch 5 minutes.

And are already had preference.

7:56 PM

@Cerberus So what about What we have here is/are apples?

So its preference is magnified.

@Tonepoet You keep referring to Noah Webster as though he is currently an active moderator of English language usage. Even the anonymous editors at the New Yorker don't have that much sway any more, so Webster even less.

@Cerberus Got it.

user227867

@Mitch Noah is his idol.

@Færd Both possible.

I think are is still preferred, but less so.

7:57 PM

@JasperLoy Websterdämmerung!

user227867

@Mitch My idol is Rodney Huddleston, author of CGEL.

@Cerberus Thanks!

"Election closes in 2 minutes."

user227867

Time for me to cast my vote...

@JasperLoy My idol is an actual idol. Well really, a matyushka doll, which looks like an idol, but then you open it up and you get another idol!

Idols all the way down!

7:58 PM

@Mitch He's not?

@JasperLoy CHANGE THA GAME

Dang, who've I been serially upvoting all this time then? =P

user227867

@DEAD With 131 rep, my vote is BINDING.

@Færd I'm actually not sure any more whether are is preferred...

@JasperLoy doyou mean to say that for 132 or over you can change your vote?

7:59 PM

But both are possible.

@Cerberus It's a set phrase: "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

@Mitch Yes, exactly.

so that swamps other feelings about it, like if you were forced at gunpoint to say 'failures'

Failures is unlikely in that sentence.

Anyway, when people stop naming their dictionaries after Noah Webster, as if they don't have a leg to stand on otherwise, I'll consider stopping. >_>

8:01 PM

@Cerberus Yeah, preference is a whole other matter.

@Cerberus Just like "Nobody's perfect".

?

Whose perfect?

Or did you mean pluperfect?

It would be grammatically correct to say "Nobodies are perfect" but that would grate so hard on the ear.

@DEAD I guess you had some point there. Who wasn't a good choice.

It would also mean something different.

8:02 PM

@Tonepoet I don't think they're discussing philosophy in "Plato's retreat"

@Tonepoet The Merriam-Webster people have a minor effect on language usage, but they only bought Webster's name.

NVZ

Congratulations, new mods!

4

@Færd I always have some points.

ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

@Mitch I know they only bought Noah Webster's name. They bought it for a reason and it still has value to them.

@NVZ Dang it! I was rooting for SmokeDetector.

@Mitch Smokey doesn't do that. Yet.

8:05 PM

Thank you also to all the candidates.

So let's cut to the chase: Who won?

@DEAD The singularity came and went years ago. They're just letting us play around now.

@Tonepoet Well, there was that guy.

@Tonepoet Metaed and TCh

and that other guy

user227867

metaed reads like faerd

stack

8:09 PM

Is this correct? "How can I change the HTML when the user marks an answer as accepted one?"

@stack the accepted one.

@DEAD Ditto

@JasperLoy Don't blame me.

Although I suspect you need to be more specific regarding what you mean by HTML stack.

stack

@DEAD if I add a "the" in the back of "accepted", then there will be three "the" in that sentence .. is that fine?

user227867

@Tonepoet Maybe you can run in the next election in ten years time.

8:12 PM

@stack Why not? A sentence may have as many articles as is needed.

stack

@DEAD ah ok

8:24 PM

@KitZ.Fox Where he went there's no return from. No?

I mean what do you feel about this sentence?

Or Where I hid my jewelry was under the bed.

Like it's a fronted clause.

Does it sound wrong or anything?

I am a bit busy with the new mods right now. Maybe someone else can help?

Sure. Thanks for your attention so far.

@sumelic Do you think where has that problem too? That it cannot serve as the head of a fused relative clause? :

> Where I hid my jewelry was under the bed.

> The place where I hid my jewelry was under the bed.

Ugh, I'm so illiterate!

Well, there are 36 hits in COCA just for ". Where I come from" (note the period).

I mean no disrespect to the anonymous editors at the New Yorker when I call them anonymous. Because everyone knows who they are](newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/comma-queen-on-impact)

8:40 PM

Of course, redacting that and yet not the other statement suggests you sincerely mean nobody cares anymore. =P

@Rathony Hi! I haven't seen you for a while.

OK. @MετάEd has new chat powers, so we're going to have him practice.

ohdear.