English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Tonepoet

12:03 AM

@Mitch What a rebel you are.

user227867

Hi, I am back.

user227867

When you buy tea in a food outlet in your part of the world, does it come black or with milk added inside already?

Kit Z. Fox

12:31 AM

@JasperLoy Black, unless you ask for it otherwise.

user227867

@KitZ.Fox In the food courts here, not restaurants, it comes with milk added. You have to specify black if you want black.

tchrist

Who was it who said that only the very young crave justice, and that everyone else instead desires mercy? Chesterfield?

user227867

@KitZ.Fox I am wondering why you use wordpress.com instead of blogger.com.

Kit Z. Fox

@JasperLoy I don't know. I just liked it better.

user227867

OK. I am going to use blogger.com, but I have no posts yet.

user227867

12:47 AM

I think Jacob Sartorius has a bright future. He will probably be the next Justin Bieber.

user227867

I like to eat Nissin chicken flavour instant noodles. I have been eating it for three decades.

user227867

It's nothing but noodles. Just add the seasoning that comes with it and hot water.

user227867

@SmokeDetector You call such a person vulgar.

Kit Z. Fox

I don't suppose there's a simple way to identify a font from a single letter?

tchrist

Not usually.

It depends on how familiar one is with type faces in general, and sometimes of the specific one in question.

Kit Z. Fox

12:53 AM

Oh, that's rather larger than I meant it.

user227867

That must be an F.

user227867

At first I thought it was a J, then a T, then finally an F.

tchrist

Very swash.

user227867

But it is a very weird F.

tchrist

I don't think it's one I have on this computer, although I'm pretty sure I have some that are somewhat like that. It's not one used in regular typesetting of running test. Swash capitals like that still have many uses.

Kit Z. Fox

12:55 AM

I thought so. I need a matching E.

user227867

The horizontal stroke is a bit too high to make it a normal F.

tchrist

looking

user227867

Many people say a H instead of an H.

tchrist

It's familiar.

user227867

It looks a little like Andrew Leach's font.

Kit Z. Fox

1:01 AM

Choosing a font has to be the hardest thing ever.

tchrist

It's some sort of special-purpose script face.

I'm flipping through specimen books.

That's a display face.

Meaning it's for large point sizes.

The coarse edging, as though dilapidated, is deliberate, and would identify it to somehow who knows that face.

Where did you get that one from?

Kit Z. Fox

I was thinking so. I like it a lot, but I'm not quite sure it's right for the application. Still, I'd like to see the E as well.

tchrist

Nope, got nothin’.

Færd

@Mitch Thanks for your elaboration.

user227867

I tried google image search for this image. It might help.

Kit Z. Fox

1:09 AM

@tchrist Google. Someone pinned it.

tchrist

Kit Z. Fox

Oh that's much too fancy. But those are pretty.

tchrist

The ”stressed” edging on yours is quite distinctive.

Interesting.

Kit Z. Fox

I'm looking for something that goes with that tree. This font looks pretty OK.

It's called Cardinal Blackletter.

tchrist

So I see.

Kit Z. Fox

1:14 AM

I have another that is more generic looking.

tchrist

But I don't think it's a blackletter face. :)

Kit Z. Fox

@tchrist Yes, I thought that was an odd name.

tchrist

Kit Z. Fox

You got it.

I think it's an interesting font.

I think I might rather change the knot to match the font, rather than the font to match the knot.

Lawrence

@tchrist It sounds familiar. I thought it would be a quick google, but I only came up with a couple like this: The young demand justice; the old will settle for mercy. No attribution, but maybe it can help your search. Ping me if you find a proper citation.

tchrist

1:16 AM

@Lawrence Thanks.

Cerberus

Hello.

Kit Z. Fox

Hi.

Cerberus

@tchrist I chanced upon your writings while Googling.

tchrist

@Cerberus Oh?

Looks like redletter to me.

Kit Z. Fox

haha

Cerberus

1:18 AM

I was looking for a way to resolve search strings like this: "intel 750|650|550 hd" SSD "cache of GB|MB|KB|B inside cpu" computer

And I wanted to do it in a single Regex.

I can get it to display this:

> "intel 750 hd" "650 hd" "550 hd" SSD "cache of GB inside cpu" "MB inside cpu" "KB inside cpu" "B inside cpu" computer

But I can't get it to do "intel 750 hd" "intel 650 hd" "intel 550 hd" etc.

Probably because lookbehind doesn't work in Javascript (I'm sorry).

tchrist

I can't quite tell what you mean. You have strings like that?

Oh.

What is your input string?

And what do you want?

Cerberus

When you Google for (a)"I'm a Viking|Greek|French child", that means the same thing as (b) "I'm a Viking child"|I'm a Greek child"|"I'm a French child"

To Google.

tchrist

/I’m a (Viking|Greek|French) child/

Cerberus

I want to turn a into b.

user227867

@KitZ.Fox I tried uploading the image to some font identification sites, but no help.

tchrist

1:22 AM

I've done that before, but it's manual and only works for fixed sets.

Cerberus

@tchrist I can do that.

@tchrist Ah, but I don't have fixed sets.

Kit Z. Fox

@JasperLoy Thanks, anyway. I think I'm going to go with something different.

Cerberus

I have only infinite variations on (a), where each word could be a different word, and there could be more or fewer words.

(Actually, in the result, I want to replace the pipes with spaces (because the thingy I use to display the results wants spaces.)

> \|(?=[^" |]+(\|[^"| ]+)*(( [^"]+)+"|"))

→

> \3" "

tchrist

Ugly.

Cerberus

Yes.

Like me.

tchrist

1:25 AM

I've seen your picture.

Færd

@Mitch I thought of that when I wrote that message, and it's partly true, but doesn't necessarily clash with my statement. And the fact that you have to cover your body doesn't mean that you have to wear manteaux; some women wear shirts and long skirts, and other options may be available. And in some parts of the country the dress code is not that strict, and a woman wearing pants and a shirt is not an unusual sight.

Cerberus

But it works fairly well.

tchrist

Cerberus

It gets me this: "I'm a Viking child" "Greek child" "French child"

Which is already a great improvement.

Perhaps it is enough.

tchrist

Wait, you're trying to match something that has pipe-separated words?

Cerberus

1:27 AM

Yes.

I want to remove the pipes; that is already a nice thing to have.

But I'd also like to "resolve" the pipes and display the results with spaces in between.

tchrist

Well, you can match these easily enough, but to generate the permutations requires looping in code.

Cerberus

I suspected as much.

I think I can do it in two Regexes.

tchrist

Regexes match; they don't generate.

Cerberus

Two Regex replacement actions, then.

tchrist

Not in javasux.

I could write a little perl program, but you don't have good control over captures, let alone named captures and secondary splitting of what they got you, in js.

Because you have to write the right hand side of the substitute as a function that's recursive on the permutations.

I think you could come to understand it if I wrote it, but I don't expect you to write such a thing.

And I wouldn't use a substitution anyway. I'd use a match and then loop/recurse over the permuted captures' sub-components.

I think I'm too tenderhearted for this world. Every time one of my kitties brings me a small little dead thing, something breaks inside me.

Kit Z. Fox

1:33 AM

@tchrist That might look nice, with the tails crossing under the roots.

Cerberus

@tchrist Oh, don't worry, it's not important. I'm just curious whether I can do it.

@tchrist Yes, I was thinking arrays/objects might work.

But it seemed like a nice thing to be able to do it with Regex if possible.

I am generating the buttons at the bottom, based on the search string at the top.

tchrist

Well, I don't know what objects matter, but you'll need arrays of each capture's sub-components to iterate or recurse over for all the permutations.

Cerberus

Yeah, something like that.

(The coloured buttons mark all matches of the phrase in question on a page, also on pages you click on from search results. And you can navigate to the next match and the previous match of each phrase by clicking on the buttons.)

So I came to your coquarium looking for a way to get the number of a match.

tchrist

Oh, are we keeping those now, too?

"The number of a match".

Cerberus

The first match of a certain search group, the second match, etc.

tchrist

1:38 AM

See, that's a problem.

Cerberus

It seemed interesting to be able to plant a number next to a replacement.

tchrist

You have to loop.

Cerberus

Yes, you looped.

tchrist

Or do a global match.

Cerberus

I'm already global.

tchrist

1:39 AM

Which cookie-cutters the whole thing.

Cerberus

I'm thinking of dropping anchors somehow.

And pulling them up again in a second round.

Or I should learn how to do an array in Javascript.

But I hate it and know nothing about it.

tchrist

I hate it too, and will have nought.

Cerberus

And I don't really need this, it's more like...stupid perfectionism, that I am trying to do it with Regex.

I know.

Mitch

@JasperLoy Tea with milk is rare in the US. Tea is pretty weak here.

tchrist

@Lawrence Found it.

> “For children are innocent and love justice, while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy.” —G.K. Chesterton

Cerberus

1:45 AM

Hah.

Not bad.

tchrist

I knew it was Chestersomething.

I have a concern, and no place to discuss it quietly.

Cerberus

Hmm what does it concern?

tchrist

People.

Cerberus

And why have you no quiet place?

tchrist

Listeners.

Cerberus

1:51 AM

You could create a private room?

tchrist

I don't want the person I'm worried about becoming concerned that I'm worrying about him.

I could.

Cerberus

Hmm.

tchrist

I'll leave it for now; it's late for most people I'd talk to about it.

Cerberus

Is this person here now?

tchrist

No.

Cerberus

1:52 AM

Is he or she here often?

tchrist

They don't come here almost ever.

Thing is, I don't think there's really anything I can do to help. I'm just worried.

Cerberus

To help this person, or to help ward him off?

tchrist

No, to help him.

Cerberus

OK.

Worried about his sanity?

tchrist

Not at all.

Cerberus

1:53 AM

Health?

tchrist

This person is very sane.

Sigh.

Cerberus

Standing?

Mitch

@Færd What part of the country is less strict? I thought that outside of the big cities things are more strict. And in northern Teheran, it's the other direction, women have their scarves back so far you can almost see all their hair.

Cerberus

As in, social standing, behaviour?

Ah, he.

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

2:00 AM

@tchrist I see there was a discussion just now.

tchrist

There was.

And a great lack of due respect.

This may turn out very bad.

And this is a very bad time for it.

Cerberus

Now more so than a month ago?

tchrist

Yes.

Because of the election.

Cerberus

I haven't followed all the bickering, it makes me close the tab.

tchrist

It does.

I did.

Cerberus

2:02 AM

I've told Asworth once that I found him far too...negative.

Nothing changed.

Fumbles is sometimes also very negative.

tchrist

I’ve had a dark premonition of an ill wind.

Cerberus

I believe he's quite old too, though not quite so old.

@tchrist Let's hope not.

tchrist

No, he's only a few years older than me, if I recall.

Cerberus

Oh, really?

Mitch

an old soul

tchrist

2:04 AM

I think so. I forget. We've exchanged private mail, and he didn't seem decrepit. :)

Mitch

he's ... uh.. retired?

possibly early?

tchrist

No.

Mitch

but his negativity is mostly a trigger finger on closing as off-topic

tchrist

I'm having trouble with the parse.

Mitch

To me, FF seems negative only in that he seems to be the first (and only) one to VtC as off-topic.

Cerberus

2:12 AM

@Mitch Gosh, are you reading the transcript?

Tonight's must be rather boring!

Mitch

@Cerberus my latest message only 3 above is in direct reference to tchrist right before.

but I always read the transcript. Except when I don't

tchrist

We've had as many people vote already as who voted in the last election, and we have almost a couple more days.

Cerberus

@Mitch I suspected you of starring a line, that's all.

Mitch

Oh. No. Not since I've been here in the past 1/2 hour

Cerberus

Oh, hmm.

It looked like you.

@tchrist Oh, where can you see that?

tchrist

2:15 AM

Badgers.

Cerberus

They have tough skins.

Based on the primaries, I think we know which candidates will probably win?

tchrist

You cannot really judge much from primaries.

Cerberus

@tchrist Ah, smart.

@tchrist Why not?

tchrist

Because there's a big difference between the scenario where people can both upvote and downvote every possibility, and when they get just a single transferable vote.

Cerberus

Mm.

Mitch

2:18 AM

But the current trends of the elections are pretty clear.

forgetting the primaries entirely

oh wait

you can't see what everybody else is doing.

Cerberus

@tchrist But we can see how many up-votes each candidate got in the primaries.

Mitch

my mistake

Cerberus

The number of down-votes is small anyway.

@Mitch Such is life.

Mitch

@Cerberus If we only could...

things would be that much more terrible!

Cerberus

We're getting there...

For some values of "you".

Lawrence

2:20 AM

@tchrist Glad you found it. Thanks for sharing.

Cerberus

Hello.

I hope you win.

Lawrence

Hello. Oh, were you talking to tchrist?

Cerberus

No.

Lawrence

Me?

Cerberus

It must be either you or an invisible person!

Mitch

2:22 AM

a pool of liquid phosphorus underneath an atmosphere of cyclohexane? I would not have expected that either!

Lawrence

@Cerberus :) . Thank you, then.

Cerberus

So modest.

There are quite a few good candidates.

I hope some people with positive attitudes win.

Lawrence

@Cerberus Me, too.

Mitch

I am invisible

Cerberus

Sometimes I wish it were impossible to comment on questions.

@Mitch Green invisible squares sleep furiously?

Mitch

2:26 AM

@Cerberus close. but we're all invisible

Cerberus

Some more than others.

Mitch

something I had for dinner has given me a greenish tinge

@Cerberus "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously"

Cerberus

You're not an idea.

And you said you were invisible.

Mitch

5 mins ago, by Cerberus

Some more than others.

Lawrence

@Cerberus It would be embarrassing to make assumptions and be wrong about such things, which easy to do on chat :) . I'm rather touched by the notes of support; I'm glad to have nominated, regardless how the results turn out.

@Mitch Anything but! :P

Wait, where's Mitch?

tchrist

2:34 AM

/kick mitch

Mitch

hahahah waves hands in front of everyones' face

@tchrist ow

Cerberus

@Mitch You more, apparently!

Mitch

or less.

Cerberus

@Lawrence Good!

tchrist

2

A: Are requests for arbitrary lines from novels on-topic?

I approach close voting in the first instance as if I were on a jury and I were under instructions to apply the letter of the law (the site's close-vote criteria) to the case before me. It sounds straightforward enough—and the law in many cases is quite clear on how I should come out. But the fu...

Mitch

2:38 AM

accounting for the greenish tinge

Lawrence

This was a fun post; tempted to do a Confucius say:

tchrist

votes for Sven

Lawrence

8

Q: How can the Chinglish expression "you can you up" be translated?

The Chinese phrase 你行你上 (literally "you good you up", usually expressed in Chinglish as "you can you up") is used against people who criticize the incompetence of others, yet are not competent themselves. The meaning is basically, "if you know how to do it so well, then you do it!" Is there an i...

tchrist

He recently unretired. He seems to have taken Chesterton’s philosophy to heart.

He has spoken well, and far better than any comment could have held room for.

Cerberus

Yes, although I don't generally agree about juries.

I think one of the problems of EL&U is that some people see a new question as a trial.

tchrist

2:43 AM

No, they see it as a computer program with fixed laws to apply unthinkingly.

Cerberus

Both at once.

tchrist

In a trial, there would be the chance of human consideration. That isn't what's happening.

Cerberus

The site should be about knowledge and education, it shouldn't be a Kaskaesque nightmare.

tchrist

But they haven't been moderators. They don't understand how important judgement is.

People who demand justice should be careful what they wish for.

Cerberus

@tchrist You get the worst parts of a trial and a computer programme.

tchrist

2:47 AM

Lynch mob.

Mitch

they keep referring to 'rules'

tchrist

I know.

Mitch

(but that's what FF always did too)

but only recently have so many people been rule-mongering.

but note that some of them (or just 1) got themselves suspended (but they had been suspended before).

tchrist

I beat you by 12 seconds.

Mitch

haha. I was going to just answer in a comment. maybe I still should have.

OK, it's too late. Oíche mhaith. Slan!

tchrist

2:54 AM

Also, it isn't peculiar to Portuguese. It may well have originated in Galicia.

Mitch

close enough.

it'sa lmgtfy question though. I'm sure a good answer could be made out of it. but so hard!

tchrist

Then again, so did Portuguese. :)

Go read my answer!

The cross-site duplicate.

Mitch

nice. the whole translation thing is frustrating. Of course everything can be translated into every other language, otherwise we wouldn't know what it means.

Frankly native speakers aren't sure about some words.

and equally of course, some words just don't have a one-to-one correspondence with words in another language. again, also even in your own language (e,.g synonyms or polysemy)

and now I'm out!

tchrist

Yes, it's all paraphrasal.

I’ve just noticed that my linked-to post is in four languages not just three. Thank goodness it's not on ELU: I'd be flayed. :)

More seriously, it works there for that set. That's a rare scenario.

user227867

3:31 AM

I think SE should just hire people who are mods on more than one site as permanent employees.

tchrist

They do hire members of the community, who often enough had been moderators. But what those persons end up doing for the company varies. They might be devs, or operations people.

user227867

tchrist should take over as CEO of SE, LOL.

tchrist

Let's don't be a nut, kk?

SmokeDetector

4:37 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: What do you call a person who uses vulgar words too often? by Barry on english.stackexchange.com

Tonepoet

9:08 AM

Was my comment a good idea? I'm worried it wasn't. Also ~~test~~?

Also, English Language & Usage's name is too long to be practical for 600 character comments. =P

DEAD

9:40 AM

@Tonepoet Just call it ELU like everyone else. Are you also aware of the magical links?

[english.SE] -> English Language & Usage

Tonepoet

Yeah but I can never remember them.

DEAD

English Language Learners

[ell.se]

Tonepoet

So meta.english.se should lead to meta?

DEAD

@Tonepoet There isn't much to remember.

@Tonepoet It does

Tonepoet

@DEAD Yeah, there isn't. It's just that I have the whole structure of a Universal Resource Locator ingrained into my brain, like the fact that the U. was meant to represent Universal and not Uniform.

Lawrence

10:01 AM

@Tonepoet It sounds harsh to recommend ELL just because of their username.

Tonepoet

10:16 AM

@Lawrence Sigh, that's the impression I feared. It's hard to articulate everything in the space of a comment though and there are other reasons. I doubt a native speaker would've suggested present participle and past tenses form as being interchangeable, and as I mentioned the membership looked freshly minted off of Google.

Tonepoet

10:42 AM

There needs to be a better way of stating these assumptions if we are going to recommend people to E.L.L. though...

Lawrence

@Tonepoet We all take our cues from somewhere, and usernames aren't exempt, but SE comments should be based on content. And if the content is such that it should prompt a suggestion to look at ELL, vote appropriately to close - the recommendation already forms part of the boilerplate. It is useful to highlight the two tours routinely when recommending ELL, though - that is something that can be requested and discussed in meta.

Tonepoet

@Lawrence I'm not suggesting that the overall question is inappropriate for the website at all. It's a strange yet famed sentence.

Lawrence

10:56 AM

@Tonepoet Intent counts for a lot. Phrasing, too. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say :) . The ELU/ELL migration debates make it harder to phrase recommendations to ELL nicely. That's a loss to both the recommender and the visitor.

@Tonepoet What do you think of this phrasing: "I noticed that your username is entirely in Chinese. If you are an English learner, have a look at our sister site ELL as well. Here are the tours for both sites ... ."?

Tonepoet

@Lawrence I'd be loath to use the word "sister" that way. =P

Maybe I'd prefer partner, but it's still not much better.

Lawrence

@Tonepoet Sorry, I don't quite get it.

But you can drop "our sister site" altogether without affecting the tone too much.

(How is sister site inappropriate and partner site better? Not rhetorical - I'm genuinely curious.)

Tonepoet

It's too figurative. I have preferences against using words too liberally, especially in a regular manner. More importantly your chief complaint is that I mentioned the Chinese username. Maybe it'd be better if I didn't specifically suggested that it was because of the username, even if that's the reason.

Well for one thing "partner site" is more gender neutral. More importantly I think it more realistically describes the relationship as being organized for joint goals and interests.

Andrew Leach

Are they organised for joint goals and interests? Or for complementary goals?

Tonepoet

@AndrewLeach Well, both. We share the goal of teaching about the English Language. The main difference is what we teach about it, isn't it?

Andrew Leach

11:15 AM

Well, yes... but. I think joint indicates a far greater degree of commonality than there is: the sites teach different things.

I've always used "sister site" for that reason.

Lawrence

@Tonepoet I see. Two issues, then - (1) my impression and (2) the use of figurative language. In retrospect, I think the impression was formed from the juxtaposition of the reference to the Chinese name with "although ... are welcome here" - in context, this can sound as if they're not even though you say they are. On figurative language, sister site has been used at ELU to reference ELL without complaint, but it's a matter of personal taste - feel free to reword to fit yours :) .

Tonepoet

11:27 AM

@Lawrence Hmm, I'm not so sure that's so easily avoidable. The recommendation is in effect, to go somewhere else, which isn't a very welcoming sentiment at all, however well intended it may be...

Skipping the rationale altogether might avoid that unfavorable implication, although then it just seems like a random comment.

Lawrence

@Tonepoet The difference is between go there instead and here are more resources. I'll accept that it's nuanced.

@Tonepoet Yes, I don't think it's necessary to go too far down the politically correct route.

@AndrewLeach It's interesting that you use the term teach. One might say that "Learners" suggests that ELL teaches, but ELU is supposed to be a community of peers, which discusses.

Tonepoet

11:46 AM

@Lawrence The word "discuss" indicates a more responsive format than Stack Exchange is meant to be. No chit-chat, just ask a question and get your answer, is one of the selling points of our tour.

This is the exact wording "This site is all about getting answers. It's not a discussion forum. There's no chit-chat."

It may be lies and slander but that's what it says. =P

RegDwigнt

> 8,444 voters were eligible, 1,620 visited the site during the election, 1,912 visited the election page

lulz

who runs this site, Florida?

Lawrence

@AndrewLeach Are you as a mod able to edit other people's comments on the main site? It's for "doe snot" in the same question; space in the wrong place. Too minor for a comment, but it might trip up the parsing for a learner.

terdon

@Lawrence Perhaps it's a deer breeder whose animals are sick.

Lawrence

@Tonepoet :) . But seriously, I was referring to the relationship between asker and answerer. On ELU, it's assumed that both come from the same pool of linguists, etymologists and serious English enthusiasts, so it's a peer relationship. On ELL, it's less clear that it's a peer relationship.

user227867

Hello @RegDwigнt I have not seen you for so long.

Tonepoet

11:56 AM

@Lawrence It's worth noting that learning doesn't really appeal to method, as much as it does effect. Honestly if I was naming English Language Learners, I'd prefer to call it English Language Students, although that might be taken as being more exclusive than intended.

user227867

I am starting to get worried about Google. I use incognito mode all the time, and today every time I sign in to my email it tells me that someone signed into my account and this might be suspicious activity. Will I get these emails the rest of my life?

user227867

If someone from Google is reading this, please do something about this NOW.

Tonepoet

Maybe student isn't a better word on second thought.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…