English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

8:00 PM

@Mitch niçard

stack

Which one is correct?
- My code breaks after sending a few requests
- My code gets break after sending a few requests

Færd

The second one is not correct.

stack

@Færd bebin mikham begam "codam bad az ye modat kharab mishe"

Færd

Please type Farsi in Farsi letters. Don't type in Finglish! :)

TIPS

@stack How exactly kharab mishe?

stack

8:06 PM

@TIPS OMG .. are you Persian too??

TIPS

@Færd Oh, this romanizing Persian is on your nerves as well?

@stack OMG

Færd

@stack The first one could work then.

@TIPS Yeah.

Not very much though.

stack

@Færd Ok, hala farz kon bekham ino begam "codam bad az ye modati folan chizo kharab mikonan", ino chetori begam?

TIPS

@Færd We have more in common than we thought.

Færd

3 mins ago, by Færd

Please type Farsi in Farsi letters. Don't type in Finglish! :)

TIPS

8:09 PM

@stack "My code will break x after some time.", and while the wording can be tweaked, I think this "breaking" has some technical nuance to it, so the phrasing mightn't be what you're looking for.

How exactly does it break, again?

stack

@TIPS it throws an error ..

TIPS

Then say so.

stack

ah ok thx

and thx @Færd

TIPS

"This code will throw an error after some time."

stack

@TIPS +1

Færd

8:11 PM

Breaks down

TIPS

Puts @Færd together

Færd

I didn't fall apart. :)

TIPS

You disintegrated?

Færd

Wanted to intimate that breaks down may work better for @stack than breaks.

@TIPS Stopped working, is all.

TIPS

Well, "throws an error" works best.

stack

8:13 PM

ah .. good to know

TIPS

You talk about programming, use programming words.

Færd

And I'm a programming virgin.

(Am gonna lose it soon hopefully though)

But I'd say that it's not the program that throws an error: It's the compiler.

And I'm not sure about throw.

stack

Is this correct?

"Why my script throws an error after sending several requests for continuous and fast?"

Færd

No. What do you mean to say by for continuous and fast?

Dan Bron

@Færd Compiled programs can also throw errors. In fact that's the most common use case (errors thrown at runtime as opposed to design time).

stack

8:23 PM

@Færd منظورم اینه که اگه ریکوست ها رو به صورت سریع و پیوسته بفرستم کدم خراب میشن

Færd

@DanBron Good to know. Thanks.

tchrist

@DanBron Bus error (core dumped).

Dan Bron

"scripts" in interpreted languages can also throw errors at runtime, but the distinction then between the "program" and the "compiler" is not sharp

@tchrist That's why I never carry my cores onto the bus.

tchrist

If the compiler doesn't like you, you even be allowed to chat with the interpreter.

Dan Bron

the reason I prefer interpreted languages is I don't want to spend my time convincing a compiler I'm 100% correct before it lets me try anything.

they say of Haskell that "once it compiles, it's right", the corollary being you spend weeks in a compile->error->compile->error loop, with no feedback from execution. No thanks.

Færd

8:26 PM

@stack Why does my script throw an error when I send successive requests in a short time?

stack

@Færd great

Færd

Or maybe say program instead of script. I'm not sure.

stack

ببین من یه چیزو هیچوقت یاد نمیگیرم .. می تونی بی زحمت این دو تا رو برام ترجمه کنی؟
- کدم اون رو اجرا می کنه
- کدم اجرا میشه

Færd

I don't have enough programming language in me to answer that confidently. Sorry.

stack

ببین اصلا مسئله برنامه نویسی نیست. اینم یه مثال که با برنامه نویسی مرتبط نیست:
- اون اجرا می کنه
- اون اجرا میشه

Dan Bron

8:34 PM

ah, what was the eponymous name for the "distinction between compiled and interpreted languages"? it was thrown around a lot in the 90s. It was named after its first proponent. Think his name started with an O.

Færd

@stack I think run works for both. It can be transitive or intransitive (like many other verbs). See the 6th definition here.

Dan Bron

Ousterhout's dichotomy

Ousterhout's dichotomy is computer scientist John Ousterhout's claim that high-level programming languages tend to fall into two groups, each with distinct properties and uses: system programming languages and scripting languages – compare programming in the large and programming in the small. This distinction underlies the design of his language Tcl. System programming languages (or applications languages) usually have the following properties: They are typed statically They support creating complex data structures Programs in them are compiled into machine code Programs in them are meant to operate...

stack

@Færd thank you buddy

Færd

@stack So: a program runs (intransitive), I run a program (transitive).

@stack میشه ۱۰۰۰ تومن.

stack

:-)

@Færd هرچند این دوتایی که گفتی، فقط یکیشون جزو گزینه های من بود.

یعنی اولی میشه: برنامه اجرا می کنه

دومی میشه: من برنامه رو اجرا می کنم

ولی سومی رو می خوام بدونم: برنامه اجرا میشه

کلا "خودش اجرا میشه" داریم تو انگلیسی؟

Færd

8:39 PM

No, the first one translates to: برنامه اجرا میشه.

That's what intransitive means.

stack

@Færd خب پس حالا چطوری می تونیم بگیم: برنامه اجرا میکنه

؟

Mitch

@stack Wait...there are non-Persians here?

stack

@Mitch What? :-) do you mean all people here are Persian?

Dan Bron

This. Is. Persia!

Færd

@stack I break a stick → The stick breaks.

I crack a glass → The glass cracks.

I run a program → The program runs

stack

8:50 PM

@Færd ببین درسته. اولی میشه من یه برنامه رو اجرا میکنم. دومی میشه برنامه اجرا میشه. حالا یه حالت سوم هست که میگه برنامه اجرا می کنه..

منظورت اینه که این حالت سوم همون حالت اول هست؟

Dan Bron

Those letters are all so small. I guess such languages are read by chunking on word-shape?

Færd

برنامه چی رو اجرا می‌کنه در حالت سوم؟

@DanBron I can make out all of them.

Dan Bron

I feel like the "g" in my word "guess" is as large as half the word which appears above it (in my browser).

stack

@Færd مثلا می خوام اینو بگم: برنامه خط سوم رو اجرا می کنه

Mitch

@stack There is historically a strong Persian contingent on ELU chat.

Færd

8:53 PM

@DanBron In my browser there's a ت above the g. ت is a single letter.

Mitch

by strong, I mean non-negligeable

or more than a single person.

@DanBron like with english spelling

Færd

@stack The third line of the program runs. Or maybe others could give alternative choices instead of runs if it's awkward, but I guess it's fine.

Dan Bron

@Færd In mine, I have that letter (I'll call it "u" because I can't type it), and it's followed by two "j"s, and the entire construct, "ujj" is just a tiny bit wider than the G.

stack

ah ok , thx @Færd

Færd

@DanBron I have no idea what you're talking about. Sure you can copy-paste it?

Dan Bron

8:56 PM

"ورت" = "ujj" = width + epsilon of "g"

Færd

Maybe your browser messes everything up because it doesn't have the font.

Mitch

but actually that's been sorta disproven with eye movement studies while reading. No one is reading all the letters one-by-one sequentially. But the studies show that procesing time is based on number of letters rather than shape., yes, having lower case (and therefore more distinct word shapes) increase the over all processing time, but other things being equal, it's individual letters.

Dan Bron

could be

Mitch

Someone shoed me this a few months ago...I'm sure there's a link some where

Færd

@DanBron In mine "ورت" is as wide as "--.-".

Dan Bron

8:59 PM

ok, so it's just a config thing on my end

Mitch

@DanBron I don't know why but Farsi and Arabic fonts for the same fontsize are way smaller than the corresponding Roman letters

Færd

Prolly :)

@Mitch Yeah they do appear smaller.

Mitch

I have to increase screen size to 250% before the Farsi looks clear to my eyes.

Dan Bron

Ok, so I'm not crazy.

Mitch

Well, not for that reason

Færd

9:01 PM

Partly because of the abominable font. How can I get SE to pick another font for Farsi?

Mitch

@Færd I don't think that's SE's fault.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@snailplane ELL is beautiful!

Færd

@Mitch So who sets the font and how can it be changed?

Mitch

maybe you could set a local CSS file with the directive for the default fontsize

Færd

I don't know what a CSS file is; will maybe look it up later.

.

Tonepoet

9:06 PM

I think it stands for Cascading Style Sheet, maybe? It's meant to be a supplement to newer forms of H.T.M.L. which dictate the aesthetics of a webpage, replacing many tag attributes.

Færd

Then I don't know what it is and how to work with it.

> I was sitting there last.

Can it mean that I was the last one to sit there, or does it invariably mean the last place I was sitting was there?

Tonepoet

Sitting suggests a continuous action in this context.

Or wait...

Færd

Get up!
- Why should I?
That's my seat. I was sitting there last.

Tonepoet

Okay, yeah you could say that but I'd prefer "sat" in that context.

Instead of was sitting.

Færd

I heard it in an exchange between two native speakers. Maybe your version is better.

But what does the last sentence mean anyway? Does it mean I was the last one who sat there (before you came along)?

Tonepoet

9:13 PM

Yeah, essentially.

Færd

Pulling it out of the context, can it also mean the last place I was sitting was there?

Tonepoet

The thing is that my first instinct in reading "I was sitting there last", devoid of from any context, is to imagine that you were the last one left sitting.

Færd

I didn't think of that.

Well, thanks.

Tonepoet

Pulling it out of the context it could mean that too.

It's really an ambiguous set of words.

Færd

Happy to hear that. I thought it has a definite meaning unless context dictates otherwise.

But I'm not absolutely sure yet..

It'll probably make a good ELL question.

Tonepoet

9:25 PM

Just to make things even more silly, "I was sitting there last" is a claim of priority, so an even stronger claim would be to say "I sat there first!"

In which case the antonyms probably mean the same thing...

Færd

Ha! Yes. But it's clear that it means I was the first one to sit there with no ambiguity.

@Tonepoet Hmm.

Tonepoet

True, there is less ambiguity. I could easily see an exchange to the effect of "I was the last person to sit there." and "Yeah, but I was sitting there first!" et cetera.

Færd

But divorced from context, even I sat there first could be ambiguous I think.

Tonepoet

Although maybe my perception is warped there because I'm reclusive and probably picked up more of my English from sitcoms than from anywhere else.

Færd

So you speak funny English? :P

Tonepoet

9:31 PM

Ehehe, I suppose that might be true.

Also I like playing video games and watching subtitled anime, so much of the time I'm reading translations too, so that portion of exposure depends entirely on the skill of the translators. Granted, that's probably not so important because the translations are usually performed by people who speak English as their first language, like Ted Woolsey who "translated" the script for Final Fantasy VI.

Færd

@Tonepoet Then maybe we understand each other: Get up!

But actually, it's just another way of learning the language for me. I'm not a TV/moV person.

I better go take my nocturnal nap. Bye.

Tonepoet

Okay, bye bye.

Shafizadeh

10:50 PM

Is "the" correct in this sentence? "One part of my website is related to the money"

tchrist

11:09 PM

Probably not

It could be, but that woild be an uncommon sceario.

Tonepoet

@Shafizadeh "The" money would be used if you were discussing specific money. Maybe if it was prize money for instance... Normally it'd just be "money".

Tonepoet

11:26 PM

@tchrist This apostrophe thing annoys me to no end. It really does. Even my mom's Random House Webster's College Dictionary states that there's no agreement in the word level punctuation section on page 1559, although it recommends the system you did.

Right down to having the example of Socrotes' worldview.

Lawrence

@Mitch That's the point. I'm not 'black' (definitely not African-American; in fact, not American at all), and I didn't really understand the fuss about all those terms like black face until they were rephrased, then it suddenly made sense.

tchrist

@Tonepoet There is pretty broad consensus that we should write what we say.

People have become confused but that's a separate matter.

I believe the confusion arose when children were taught that plurals ending in -s don't get another one added for the possessive.

And they misunderstood that as saying something that it is not. They thought it was a about writing in a way that was disconnected from speaking. But that has never been so.

Lawrence

@lifestooshort You say, "There's this word called curiosity." Then you wait until they ask, "What is it?"

Tonepoet

Incidentally I did find one 1700s example of Socrotes's.

Lawrence

@lifestooshort But if you're looking for "quite deep and less intuitive" as you say, you must have quite a 4 year-old. A dictionary definition may be better.

Tonepoet

11:42 PM

Random House made a point of specifying singular nouns but I think I'll be looking into the whole "What would Webster do?" thing. Hopefully he covers this in "An Improved Grammar of the English Language" because I don't think he had the opportunity to further improve it. He died about 1844 or 1845..

tchrist

That was a mistake.

The only singular nouns whose spellings add only an apostrophe are those whose pronunciations do not change either.

Because the apostrophe is always silent.

series

species

Socrates

dirty knees

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…