English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

15:13

@RegDwigнt Have you been following the European elections?

New developments are quite interesting. Right-wing populists are predicted to win many seats, whereas the centre-right will lose.

This is one of the few cases where the influence of right-wing populists might not be all bad:

> As LSE’s Simon Hix has recently stated, one example is the much vaunted Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) deal between the EU and the United States. GUE-NGL [far left] have been strongly critical of TTIP and have suggested the negotiations should be immediately suspended.
Taken alongside existing opposition to TTIP from Eurosceptic parties, and even among members of the ‘centre’, such as the Greens, there are legitimate questions over whether the deal could gain majority backing in the new Parliament.

The deal was already unlikely to succeed, at least in its current form. Now I declare it as good as dead.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2014/05/20/…

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Rob I would like "From a Whisper to a Scream" a lot better if he didn't let that other guy sing.

KitFox

this plastic fork is not good for cutting through my lasagna.

Matt Эллен

15:31

try using a cotton knife

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

snert

Can we have writer's chat again today?

Matt Эллен

I don't see why not

KitFox

OK.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

squee

KitFox

Are you coming over to the hotel?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:34

What? writers chat two days in a row?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yeah! In about 10 minutes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Calling all writers, join our impromptu chat!

The Overlook Hotel

General discussion for writing.stackexchange.com. Writing exer...

Johan Larsson

!!define impromptu

KitSox

@JohanLarsson impromptu Improvised; without prior preparation; extemporaneous; unplanned.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto dun. Kommyoot.

Johan Larsson

15:48

extemporaneous huh?

@MattЭллен Putting together a sample for you later, remind me if I forget. Really sweet stuff.

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson cool! thanks

Johan Larsson

install 2013 meanwhile!

Matt Эллен

I suppose I could, but I will still be developing in 2010 :D

Johan Larsson

yeah

why btw?

retro hipster?

Matt Эллен

16:39

because geting the company I work at to spend money is hard

!!mug or order or amber

KitSox

@MattЭллен amber

Johan Larsson

16:50

@MattЭллен here is a simple sample

I used someone elses code, don't remember how much I changed

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Reg What did CUUSOO stand for, anyway?

Johan Larsson

added enumeration of all languages & squiggly + build errer for missing translation

The error is only in designtime, the program will run with missing translations

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:10

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 It's a Japanese site. cuusoo.com/about

RegDwigнt

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 "to wish something into existence" is the translation circling around, but you better ask @Robusto.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:28

> The origin of the name "CUUSOO" is the Japanese word "空想 (kuusou)", which means "to imagine and wonder about something unlikely to happen or exist".

From their site.

Robusto

3

Q: How did oxytonic come to mean “final accent” rather than “acute accent”?

In Samuel Martin's Reference Grammar of Japanese (1975), the author describes the location of lexical accent on Japanese words using the following terms: Prototonic: The accent is at the beginning of the word. Mesotonic: The accent is somewhere in the middle of the word. Oxytonic: The accent is...

etymology

This seems like a better fit for Linguistics.SE

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Incidentally 空想 is kongxiang in Chinese, which means "daydream" or "fantasy"

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I would have to see the Kanji. The transliteration sounds like it could also mean "shit" in Japanese.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, that means the same in Japanese as well.

And its transliteration would be くうそう (fantasy) instead of くそ (shit). The kanji for the latter is 屎.

I just wonder why they needed the C instead of a K if they wanted a Japanese word.

This is a case where the isochronous nature of Japanese can confound foreigners. Most of us would hear no distinction between kuso and kuusou. Also, the CUUSOO is kinda stupid for other reasons, since a more accurate rendering would be, as I say, kuusou.

Not that it makes a dime's worth of difference.

Back to woik.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Interesting.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, it's a Japanese company, so presumably they chose their name for inscrutable Japanese reasons.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

17:39

Heh.

0

Q: reminescent hankering of a past event

Is thier a single word or idiom for a reminescent hankering for a past event - such as a concert, a party, a vacation, etc. attended with friends or whoever company?

idioms

That question gives me a nice idea for a character name: Nostalgic Jones.

Mitch

@MattЭллен unsprunging something means setting it up after it has sprung. "I sprang the trap then set it back up. Now it is unsprung."

Wait... did I just suggest another color to the bike shed? Or are we still waiting for it to dry?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇在英语中，单词的白日梦是由两个单词'day'和'dream'

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hey, I hear Google is working on 64-bit Android.

But Apple had 64-bit first. Why couldn't Google pick 63 or 65 bits??

They're always copying Apple.

Mitch

17:55

@Cerberus I think they should go minimalist, 1-bit.

Cerberus

@Mitch Very original.

Jez

ok this is annoying. word on the tip of my tongue.

Cerberus

What is it?

Jez

it's..... ahh, i see what you did there

Cerberus

Hehe.

Jez

17:57

it's like "authentic" or "faithful", like when you make a 100% accurate copy of something

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Apple was just copying Intel who was just copying PowerPC which used to be owned by Apple.

Jez

you say "is this a ..... copy?"

Cerberus

Hmm authentic sounds good enough...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez genuine? exact? perfect?

Mitch

@Cerberus I know! I'm surprised nobody else has picked up on it.

Jez

17:58

i can feel i keep almost getting the word i want

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 not any of them, though they're pretty close

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Nonsense, Apple was first.

Just as with their rounded corners.

Jez

ahhhhhh

it's like "fidelity"

Mitch

pitch perfect

Cerberus

I still have the scars from the razor-sharp corners of my previous phone.

Mitch

keeping it real

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:59

@Jez high-fidelity?

Jez

maybe something like that

hmm

Mitch

note to self: don't shave with @Cerberus's phone

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

that kind of word is typically used in, eg, audio reproductions

what kind of thing is being copied?

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, you can shave with it. Just not phone with it. If you are attached to having ten fingers.

Jez

yeah, im trying to describe the perfect recreation of a DVD including boot and possibly copy-protection data

i need to make a "perfect fidelity" copy or something

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:00

hm. bitwise-copy?

Cerberus

Sounds good.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

When people use "copy" with DVD there are lots of possibilities with overlapping terms

Jez

yeah, quite

Cerberus

Or bit by bit.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'd spell it out. Full bit-for-bit copy including DRM

or something

Jez

18:02

maybe "a copy with perfect fidelity"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

that just sounds like you won't be able to tell that the resulting picture is a copy, quality-wise

Jez

huh?

fidelity can mean "conformity to a standard"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

like, "I re-encoded this DVD with H.264 with perfect fidelity and reduced the file size by 75%"

Jez

wouldn't "perfect fidelity" imply that the resulting video looked identical?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yes. looks identical.

Jez

18:03

so, the resulting DVD copy looking identical would be what you wanted

well how can it be identical? you're making a copy

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You can have identical copies. Typically when you buy a DVD, if you buy two of them, they're identical.

Jez

hmm

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you had access to a machine that could duplicate the manufacturing process, you could manufacture an identical copy

Jez

maybe i should just say "identical copy" then

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it would be, for all intents and purposes, exactly the same, because it's a physical copy

Jez

18:05

doesn't seem to emphasize enough the need to maintain stuff that might not seem obvious

in fact, "identical copy" almost seems tautologous

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Almost, but it's not.

Like, if you copy a typical DVD with a typical DVD-burner, your result is a copy, but not identical.

And if you copy an analog recording it's never identical.

Jez

"Will ImgBurn make an identical copy of a Windows 7 install DVD?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"never".

Jez

that question seems reasonably phrased

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Are you allowed to expand on the question? Or just one sentence and you're done?

Jez

18:08

I'm expanding on it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Then yeah, that's a good headline for the question

Cerberus

Google is planning to show advertisements on Google Glass and thermostats...

Isn't that lovely.

Damkerng T.

@Cerberus Link, please. Thanks in advance. :D

Cerberus

Hi!

It is a Dutch article.

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Cerberus

18:12

tweakers.net/nieuws/96163/…

Jez

As an aside, ImgBurn seems like a seriously awesome piece of software

for years and years you've had to pay to get reliable CD/DVD backup/burning tools

it looks like a completely freeware tool that just works for everything

Cerberus

I thought there were more good, free such programmes...

Jez

various things exist but none are perfect

Damkerng T.

@Cerberus Thanks! And, wow!

Jez

IsoBuster for example, isn't competely free and doesn't actually burn DVDs

Fireburner doesn't create images

Nero isn't free

Cerberus

18:14

@DamkerngT. blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/21/… This where Tweakers got their information from.

Jez

i havent seen anything free quite as comprehensive as ImgBurn until now

Cerberus

@Jez Hmm OK, good to know.

Although, who burns DVDs these days any more?

Jez

people who want to backup their win7 installation media

having just paid £130+ for the damn thing

Damkerng T.

I do, sometimes.

Cerberus

You can back those up electronically.

Jez

18:15

how?

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus :)

Cerberus

Just save the disc as an image?

Jez

then how do you install win7 from the image?

Cerberus

USB?

Jez

dunno whether that would work

Cerberus

18:16

It should.

Jez

isnt the bootable usb standard different from the bootable dvd one?

Cerberus

Although the last time I installed an OS was several years ago, and it was XP, from a CD.

@Jez microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/html/…

Jez

@Cerberus is the microsoft store even offering windows 7 anymore? all i see is windows 8

Cerberus

I don't know, but that was just to show that you can install Windows 7 through USB.

Jez

hmmmmmmmm.

Cerberus

18:20

@Jez arstechnica.com/business/2009/12/the-usb-flash-drive

terdon

AFAIK, installing windows from USB is perfectly possible.

Jez

now im wondering whether installing from USB would be better

Cerberus

> How to create a bootable Windows 7 USB flash drive
Looking for a quicker way to install Windows 7 than via DVD? Try this.
This guide will show you two different ways to create a USB flash drive that works just like a Windows 7 DVD. In order to follow this guide, you'll need a USB flash drive with at least 4GB of free space and a copy of the Windows 7 installation disc.

@Jez It would.

@terdon Yeah baby!

terdon

Heh, I even had an answer on it :)

1

A: Make flash drive bootable with MULTIPLE Windows Installers

I am not sure I understand your question. If you want a usb stick capable of installing various windows systems from ISOs, there are many programs to make this easy for you. PendriveLinux is a great resource for this type of thing. Of the various choices listed there, I prefer MultiSystem. Using...

@Cerberus Whohooo! :P

Cerberus

@terdon +1!

terdon

18:22

:)

Mitch

@Cerberus I would say that my fingers are attached to me. I would also say that is an iShave, not an iPhone.

Cerberus

@terdon You're super, user!

terdon

Damn straight, dawg.

Cerberus

@Mitch They are attached to you...for now.

If you are not attached to them, then by all means detach them by using the pre-Apple iShave.

Mitch

@Cerberus Just cut off my fingers to spite my hand. And you. Note: those last fingers are really hard to do.

Cerberus

18:25

The trick is to put the phone in a vice and hit it with your hand at the right place.

Ugh, I really hate amputations.

Mitch

I have enough vices, too much extra guilt to involve my phone...er... shaver.

Cerberus

A pity.

Mitch

@Cerberus I know! Mostly the clean up though.

Cerberus

Umm yeah.

Jez

@Cerberus thanks, that article is very useful. i'll save it.

Cerberus

18:28

It's just...the very idea of removing functionality from someone's body forever, that is so revolting.

@Jez Good luck!

Jez

bit surprised you format the usb stick with fat32, though. surely that's a pretty ancient FS

Cerberus

I'm sure there are more ways now in 2014.

Mitch

Wasn't there an amputation in Madame Bovary? I only ever saw the movie.

Cerberus

No idea.

Mitch

@Cerberus Well, gangrene is worse.

Cerberus

18:29

Maybe.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

What a positive note to enter on—people talking about amputating body parts with razor-sharp phones … well, hello world!

Mitch

as far as end game and also smell.

Jez

it's funny when you're at the point of wondering whether the windows 7 installer would fit on the maximum size of windows 98's file system :-)

Mitch

@JanusBahsJacquet go out and come back in again thinks up new disturbing conversational topic for JBJ to walk in on

Jez

it looks like it's 2 to 3 GiB so it would, just about

Janus Bahs Jacquet

18:31

@Mitch Nah, I just popped my clogs by the heater and got a mug of hot chocolate going.

Mitch

when JBJ leaves, everyone turn around and face the back of the elevator. then when he comes in, he'll think he's supposed to do the same.

@JanusBahsJacquet how far north are you? or is it south? That sounds like unpleasant weather to come inside from.

Jez

hmm, someone suggested I edit "I'm wanting to..." to "I want to". I wonder how casual "I'm wanting to..." is

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Not that far north, really. And no clogs, heater, or chocolate here in real life. Only virtual clogs, heaters, and chocolates are indulged in. Spent the latter part of the afternoon shirtless in a park, soaking up sunshine, as it happens.

Jez

i just naturally used that turn of phrase

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Jez I’d say quite colloquial. I doubt I’d ever write that, even in an informal text, unless I were writing eye-dialect (or very colloquially, like in SMSes).

Mitch

18:35

@JanusBahsJacquet Oh. I get it. I didn't know which world you were talking about.

Cerberus

I'm being with Janus.

Jez

@Cerberus but you might say "I'm agreeing with..."

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Mitch I know, this habit of mine of flitting back and forth between worlds can be confusing for those of a more monomundane disposition.

Cerberus

@Jez Yes, you might.

But still colloquial.

Jez

casual, i dunno about colloquial

Mitch

18:36

@Jez I blame McDonald's and their advertising slogan "I'm loving it". Never heard that pattern before, now hear it all the time.

Jez

oh, they mean the same thing.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Jez “I’m agreeing with…” is a different matter altogether, because agree is not usually semantically stative.

Jez

heh

i'd heard it before McD's. I think it's funny that they start to spell "loving" correctly

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Or monogaean.

Mitch

or monomaniacal

Janus Bahs Jacquet

18:37

@Cerb Even that, true.

Cerberus

@Mitch Ugh, yes. That.

Jez

it's "I'm lovin' it" - surely it should be something more slangy like "I'm luvvin' it"

terdon

I wouldn't even say I'm wanting to, where are you from?

Mitch

plurimaniacals don't last very long.

Jez

@terdon UK

terdon

18:38

@Jez Seriously? Huh, OK.

Jez

"I'm wanting to build a shed, but i don't have enough wood here"

Mitch

I just bought a whole bushel of greengrocer's apostrophes, and I'm trying to offload them.

Jez

sounds ok to me really

terdon

Actually, now that you mention it, I would associate it with the north.

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Hmm I don't know, why is it not stative, like live or be [at a place]?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

18:38

@Mitch Yeah, I’d heard I’m loving X before McDonald’s, too—it’s just that McDonald’s made it a thing to have it without any context.

terdon

"I want to build a shed, but i don't have enough wood here"

Jez

huh? that's ungrammatical

it's just the present continuous vs. the present

the present continuous just emphasizes the "right now" aspect of it i guess

Mitch

the present is very continuous

the present perfect is a single point. right now.

Jez

come to think of it, why DON'T we use the present continous with "want"?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerb Am I mislabelling? Is ‘stative’ not the word I’m looking for here? Isn’t that what we usually call those verbs that just don’t agree with the present continuous?

terdon

18:40

@Jez How is that ungrammatical?

Jez

"I want" vs. "I'm eating"

for example

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Well, yes.

Jez

@terdon you edited it, so it isn't now

Mitch

Oooh..thanks for reminding me. Snacktime.

Cerberus

But I would say agree does not agree with the present continuous in its regular sense?

terdon

18:41

@Jez Ah, sorry, yes. The 'm was left over from the copy/paste.

Jez

I agree, I'm agreeing

again, casually "I'm agreeing with John" sounds OK

Cerberus

Except casually, yes.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerb Perhaps not in some cases … but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the present continuous of agree in most cases. “I’m not arguing, I’m agreeing with you!”, for example.

Jez

perhaps it's a less sure way of saying "I agree"

like "I'm moving towards agreeing"

or "I'm currently agreeing with but still open to persuasion"

i dunno

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Yes...but I would almost say that is a transferred sense of the verb?

terdon

18:43

I think it depends on the verb. Wanting sounds weird. I'm finding it hard to find cases where I'd use.

Cerberus

"Saying things that are in agreement with you" v. "being in agreement with you".

Jez

@terdon well i've heard "I'm wanting to..." quite often

terdon

Perhaps because of he was judged and found wanting.

@Jez Not saying it's wrong, just that I, personally, am having trouble finding an example where I'd use it.

Jez

and again i ask, is there some grammatical reason we don't use the present continuous with "want"?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerb Perhaps. But in the somewhat contrived situation where a present continuous would be expected (say, as an answer to a question asked in the present continuous) and the verb agree, I would use I’m agreeing with no qualms.

Jez

18:44

"I want something" - "I'm eating something"

why aren't you wanting something?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

“Dude, what are you doing?” — “I’m agreeing with him. He’s got a point.”

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet I'd say the present continuous is in the process of encroaching on what used to be the exclusive domain of the simple present; it started in colloquial corners, but perhaps it has now even penetrated some of the more formal reaches...

So the criterion/Aktionsart-thingy "stative" doesn't work any more with the present continuous.

Jez

@Cerberus really? i don't see it as much of a change; present continuous is for what's happening now, simple present is for what happens habitually

Cerberus

@Jez The examples in the present discussion show how it is changing...

Jez

@Cerberus like "I'm agreeing" and "I'm wanting"?

they just follow that logic

Cerberus

18:47

Yes.

Jez

"I agree all the time, I want all the time" - habitual

"I'm agreeing, I'm wanting" - right now

Matt Эллен

she left me wanting more

Cerberus

@Jez This is a simplification. The present continuous was never used with stative verbs for something that is "happening" now, but it (sometimes) is.

Matt Эллен

I'm not wanting to do it, I'm needing to do it

terdon

@MattЭллен Yes! That's about the only way I'd use wanting as a verb I think.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

18:49

@Jez “I want an ice cream!” is not habitual—it’s right now and momentary. That’s the traditional usage.

Cerberus

For stative verbs.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Yes

Jez

@Cerberus stative verbs?

@JanusBahsJacquet yeah true but i think the present continous could be used

Cerberus

@Jez Verbs that "express a state of being", which is admittedly a bit vague. Think I live in London, I am a teacher, I love walnuts, I have 500 pounds in my pocketses.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

And for some stative verbs, the continuous is still very odd, at least to me. “It feels colder now”, not “It is feeling colder now”; or “She seems angry”, not “She is seeming angry”—even though both are very ‘right now’ and could be phrased in the continuous if some non-stative verb were used.

Jez

18:51

@Cerberus i don't understand your sentence, "with stative verbs for something that is "happening" now"

surely a stative verb is for something that isn't happening now, but is habitual / is a state

Cerberus

A state, yes; a habit, no.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Jez The continuous could (for some speakers) be used there nowadays; but not traditionally, so not, say, in the 1800s. The change is happening slowly.

Jez

@Cerberus yeah but there's also the habitual usage

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Exactly! I'm having two children...

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerb Oh, have they finally figured that male pregnancy thing out? About time, too!

Cerberus

18:52

...which is still read as "I'm giving birth to two children now".

Jez

@JanusBahsJacquet at least it's a logical change, not some nonsense like dropping prepositions, giving up on whom etc. :-)

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Yes, they have figured many things out in the realm of mythology! If Zeus can give birth to a girl, and from his head, no less...

@Jez I don't like this change.

It is...verbose.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Jez Is it particularly logical, though? There’s just as much logic in not explicitly marking the continuous (≈ stative) aspect with verbs that are already stative in nature …

Cerberus

I prefer the simple present.

In Dutch, the simple present is used for things that are happening now. It makes more sense.

Jez

@JanusBahsJacquet are they already stative? "I want chocolate" - do you want it all the time, or just right now?

Cerberus

18:55

The definition of stative is indeed a bit problematic...

Jez

@Cerberus same in French, and... no it doesnt. well ok makes sense maybe, but the distinction between continuous and stative/habitual is useful

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Jez Just right now. That’s the stative sense. Stative does not imply habitual.

Jez

@JanusBahsJacquet I could imagine someone saying "I want chocolate. All the time."

there, "want" is habitual or stative

Cerberus

@Jez The thing is, "happening now" is the default, and we use the continuous only when we really need it, not all the time.

Jez

the second sentence wouldn't be needed if "want" were always understood as habitual or stative

@Cerberus wait, if "happening now" is the default, how is the continuous different?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

18:57

I’m not saying stative verbs can’t be used for habitual senses—but the basic meaning of stative is not that it is habitual, but that it describes a non-active state of being, rather than an action.

Jez

yeah

well you could want chocolate all the time; there's no reason want can't be stative

Cerberus

@Jez By "the contunuous" I meant "the construction that makes it implicit that something is going on right now".

Jez

@Cerberus yeah, i know

i still dont understand you

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet I forgot what tests we use again to determine stativity...

Jez

sorry... i'm still not understanding you :-P

The Overlook Hotel

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…