English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

MετάEd

15:14

2

A: What is the meaning of "pole of time" here?

There is a question of translation here. We would need to know what the Russian word was and what it meant. Pole is an obsolete unit of measure, but generally of length — one pole is 5½ yards. However, MW has a definition "a varying unit of length", so presumably it isn't always 5½ yards. Give...

Johan Larsson

@MετάEd ty sir

Cerberus

15:35

@O0oO0oOO0ooO That is funny, but I don't understand why those people take her seriously.

I mean, either she is a hooker, or it is a joke.

To both of which the answer is, "perhaps some other time, goodbye!".

@MattЭллен It is USA centric, it's about pop culture, and it is about stereotypical gays.

And stupid people to boot.

But, oh, well!

tchrist

16:27

@MattЭллен Don’t feel bad. I only got 34%. I have no idea WTF those questions are about.

It’s like a “How much do you know about trend ephemeral consumerist pop claptrap?” than anything else.

Cerberus

Exactly.

And also "are you into a vulgar subculture associated with a minority of gays?".

I think questions like, "did you hang out with girls a lot in school?" would be better.

tchrist

Vulgar is a good word; I missed that one.

Cerberus

I mean that as in "of the people", of course.

tchrist

I guess that’s “pop”, an apocopation not of “popular” but rather of “populist”.

Cerberus

In a way, popularity is related to populism...

The latter being political.

tchrist

16:33

> popular: connecting to and with the common people

Not sure if I agree with that one.

Cerberus

That is the basic meaning.

Of course words acquire additional (sub-)senses...

tchrist

I thought it was just a way of counting things.

Cerberus

?

tchrist

If 95% of a sample come up with true on some particular metric (like, have you read War and Peace), but only 0.05% come up true on some different metric (like, have you read Sex in the City), then War and Peace is popular and Sex in the City is not.

KitFox

Looks like I'm 38% gay.

Which seems pretty accurate to me.

tchrist

16:39

Perhaps you’re just not a dedicated follower of fashion.

KitFox

I had to choose "musicals are gay" even though I don't really think so. I just haven't had time to go to the theatre in the last five years.

tchrist

Yes, exactly.

Cerberus

A very nice Slavic band has just appeared.

Three violins and a bass.

They're singing...something Slavic.

tchrist

Usually front men are tenors.

Cerberus

All four are young.

Possibly conservatory students.

Strings are my favourite instruments.

tchrist

16:45

May I interest you in a hammer dulcimer?

Cerberus

Ehm to listen to, not to play. I can't.

They are expressing Slavic temperament, but apparently packing up for the next street corner.

Mitch

@KitFox wikipedia tells me that gelatin is an animal byproduct and pectin fruit. but they have similar chemical properties (polysaccharides) and also not too far from the fingernail stuff.

tchrist

@Cerberus I wonder what Slavic temperament might mean.

Mitch

@tchrist I know. Sounds like a euphemism for something I'm too young to understand.

tchrist

17:01

@Mitch Sounds like something that might have out of the mouth of some discredited Germanic-language would-be philosopher or demagogue from ~1885–1935.

Mitch

North German.

ha ha but seriously. it's weird how acceptable some 'national character' statements are, but some are not. and if you come from Mars, you have no way of knowing.

tchrist

@Mitch That’s a statement about the Arean national character.

Mitch

I know. Kind of earthist.

tchrist

I see the Terranists have won.

-1

Q: Question question: How many “th” president of the United States is Barack Obama?

In Sinhalese it’s possible to form a question that when translated to English means something like: How many “th” president of the United States is Barack Obama? Is the use of just the word th in a sentence correct? If not, is it possible to rephrase the question?

That’s the 32ⁿᵈ duplicate.

Matt Эллен

wow

people really like that question

and they almost always go with presidents

tchrist

17:15

Really?

That’s curioso.

Why not “King Henry VIIIᵗʰ was ‘whichᵗʰ’ King Henry?”

Or: “During whichᵗʰ World War were Hiroshima and Nagasaki first nuked?”

The user has immolated.

Cerberus

@tchrist Mainly just strong. Temperamental.

@Mitch What would not be acceptable?

And what is "acceptable"?

tchrist

Acceptable is anything to which no exception is taken.

Oh wait, that’s exceptable.

A woman nine months gravid is expectable.

Cerberus

Exceptionable.

Matt Эллен

acceptable

tchrist

I think think angry subroutines should throw tantrums instead of exceptions.

Cerberus

17:22

Looking forward to a baby is not the same as receiving one.

tchrist

So much for sheep talk, eh?

0

A: Is it ever correct to have a space before a question or exclamation mark?

NO, IT IS NEVER CORRECT TO PUT A SPACE BEFORE A COMMA, PERIOD, EXCLAMATION POINT, OR QUESTION MARK! I CAN'T STAND IT WHEN PEOPLE DO THAT!

MY EARS ARE HURTING !

ＭＹＥＡＲＳＡＲＥＨＵＲＴＩＮＧ！

ᴍʏ ᴇᴀʀꜱ ᴀʀᴇ ʜᴜʀᴛɪɴɢ﹗

Matt Эллен

What was that? Ray Mears is dirty? What's he done now?

Mitch

17:58

@Cerberus well, I suppose acceptable is anything nice and unnacceptable is anything not nice, eg 'X are tenacious' vs 'X are stubborn'. I was more thinking of...

... an incident where someone who is from Mars (doesn't know the historical situation) asks an X person "Why does everybody hate X people?" (with the implication that there must be something there if so many people think it). Which seems on the surface either naive or stupid or disingenuous. But really, the Martian just doesn't have the cultural context at all.

Cerberus

@Mitch Uhh what would the Martian ask this?

Mitch

18:18

@Cerberus Why would they ask this? Presumably because they hear that lots of people hate the X.

Cerberus

When someone hears "group x is stubborn", he will think I hate group x?

Mitch

You're saying something negative. lots of little statements like that add up to don't like, add a few more it becomes hate?

Cerberus

I don't see why that should be true.

Because I also say neutral and positive things about the country.

And small things do not always add up to one big thing. Certainly not in this case.

Mitch

Are you trying to get from me an explanation of why people are racist?

Martians are racist too, they just don't know enough of our history to have well informed opinions on how to be jerks.

Cerberus

Well. I just don't agree.

Johan Larsson

18:30

@tchrist have you seen a cougar?

tchrist

@JohanLarsson Sure.

Johan Larsson

nice, I saw a lynx once here but I think they are more common

tchrist

If by that you are asking whether I have ever had the great good fortunate to see a mountain lion in the wild, and live to tell the tale.

Lions are common here.

But rarely seen.

Lynx are actually much rarer here than lions.

Johan Larsson

So you have not seen one in the wild then?

tchrist

In fact, they have had to reïntroduce them.

A lynx? No, I have not.

However, it is possible that you are referring to a bobcat.

It’s a “red lynx”.

Those are much less rare.

Bobcat

The bobcat (Lynx rufus) is a North American mammal of the cat family Felidae, appearing during the Irvingtonian stage of around 1.8 million years ago (AEO). With 12 recognized subspecies, it ranges from southern Canada to northern Mexico, including most of the continental United States. The bobcat is an adaptable predator that inhabits wooded areas, as well as semidesert, urban edge, forest edges, and swampland environments. It persists in much of its original range, and populations are healthy. With a gray to brown coat, whiskered face, and black-tufted ears, the bobcat resembles the...

The (Canada) lynx is the one that is rare in Colorado.

Canada lynx

The Canada lynx (Lynx canadensis) or Canadian lynx is a North American mammal of the cat family, Felidae. It is a close relative of the Eurasian Lynx (Lynx lynx). However, in some characteristics the Canada lynx is more like the bobcat (Lynx rufus) than the Eurasian Lynx. With the recognised subspecies, it ranges across Canada and into Alaska as well as some parts of the northern United States. With a dense silvery-brown coat, ruffed face and tufted ears, the Canada lynx resembles the other species of the mid-sized Lynx genus. It is larger than the bobcat, with which it shares parts of ...

Many people mix those up, and how they compare with your lynx, I don’t know.

The lynx eats bunnies.

> The appearance of the Canada lynx is similar to that of the Eurasian lynx: the dense fur is silvery brown and may bear blackish markings.

It is about twice the size of an average house cat.

Johan Larsson

18:39

Lynx Lynx we have only one kind

tchrist

Johan Larsson

They eat hares and deer I think

tchrist

That’s the range of our lynx. Notice it does occur in Colorado. That’s the southernmost green island in the range.

Our lynx aren’t really big enough to take down deer: remember our mule deer here in the west are twice the size of white-tailed deer in the east.

Mitch

@Cerberus what is it that you dont agree with?

tchrist

They do sometimes get deer, apparently, especially the larger subspecies from Cascadia.

Cerberus

18:41

Everything!

tchrist

And sometimes large bobcats (red lynx) are bigger than the smaller Canada lynx. Um, lynxes. Lynges? @Cerb HELP!

Johan Larsson

@tchrist The most common deer here is small 25 kg or so.

Cerberus

The Latin plural is lynces, apparrently, which should have been lynges, as in Greek.

tchrist

Thanks.

Cerberus

GR.

tchrist

18:44

@JohanLarsson We have no deer so tiny as that here, except for very young fawns. Mule deer (sometimes called black-tailed deer) range from 120 to 450 pounds.

For an 18-to-25–pound kitty, that’s a hell of a big side of venison.

It’s the lions whose main prey is deer.

Mitch

@Cerberus ?? So of what do disagree: that 1) some people are racist 2) most people are racist 3) everybody is racist to some degree. 4) recognizing 'national character' or culture or personality is some times racist and sometimes not. 5) sometimes it is hard to tell the drawing line 6) it's not racist to wonder why other people are racist. 7) it sounds weird to ask about why some people are racist, because it sounds like it is supporting that racism. So you disagree with all of these?

tchrist

@Cerberus How can I tell a dog growl from a lion growl? And does it really matter?

Hm, or a lynx growl, in this case.

Cerberus

11

Q: How to respond to dictionary/“general reference” questions?

There’s been a lot of discussion already (e.g. here, here) of what kind of questions are too basic — and the rough consensus seems to be that if a question can be answered from just standard reference sites that everyone can be expected to know (e.g. Google, Wikipedia), and doesn’t encourage bett...

discussion

tchrist

> On the event of hybridisation between the Mule deer and the Whitetail the offspring is subject to ecological post-zygotic reproductive isolation, in which its predator escape technique becomes confused: a mix of the Mule deer's stotting strategy and the Whitetail's sprint strategy cause the hybrid to perform a chaotic mixture of both, making it an easy prey-target for the Coyote.

Stotting?

Johan Larsson

I need to start packing for a two week fishing trip, not much fun packing

tchrist

18:51

> Stotting (also pronking or pronging) is a behavior of quadrupeds, particularly gazelles, where they spring into the air by lifting all four feet off the ground simultaneously. Usually the legs are held in a relatively stiff position and the back may be arched with the head pointing downward. Many explanations of stotting have been proposed; there is evidence that at least in some cases it is an honest signal to predators that the prey animal is not worth pursuing.

Cerberus

@Mitch Uhh I mainly think they are not relevant to saying "Germans are stubborn".

tchrist

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson you only need a tshirt and a pair of shorts, no? ;)

Cerberus

And now I have to go.

Later!

Mitch

@JohanLarsson unpacking is worse sigh, vacation over

tchrist

18:51

@Cerberus Are you even allowed to say that?

Bai!

Cerberus

They don't see it as negative.

Bai!

Matt Эллен

CU

tchrist

@MattЭллен I dunno. It might be good to have two tshirts so you can have something to wear while one is drying.

Assuming you need to bother.

Plus of course, it may get cold at night.

Stubborn is not a negative? Who are they, Bushlet?

Mitch

@Cerberus ha ha I don't know where you got that from. Who said that? This all started with abstractions from 'slavic temperament'

tchrist

@MattЭллен Do you rhyme shone with lawn or with loan?

It’s like the scone question.

Matt Эллен

18:56

As in "I shone a torch on it"? I say it closer to lawn, but the vowel is shorter

tchrist

Matt Эллен

I say it more like bon

tchrist

Hm.

Matt Эллен

or gone

tchrist

Oh right.

That makes sense.

You never hear it that way in North America; I don’t know why. I remember being confused when I first heard it that way.

I hadn’t ever stopped to think that gone and lawn were different. For me, it’s the same vowel.

And no, it is not the Californian lahn, either.

Matt Эллен

18:58

ah. yeah. for me, lawn has an aw in it

tchrist

I have a lot of rounding in it.

As for me does also gone. Same aw.

Matt Эллен

oh! :D

tchrist

Rounding. w-ness. Something like that.

It’s [ɔ:].

Johan Larsson

@MattЭллен And fish with my fists right?

@Mitch truedat

tchrist

I don’t have an [ɒ] phoneme; it’s only an allophone.

Matt Эллен

19:01

@JohanLarsson yeah! you get it :D

tchrist

That’s why you see the exaggerated eye-dialect Gawd is nowt mowcked!

Johan Larsson

@tchrist not sure the Lynx growls, I think there is a difference in that big cats have an extra bone enabling roaring.

tchrist

Only Panthera does.

The genus of the Big Cats.

And Felis can purr both directions.

The other cats only purr exhaling, not full time.

Don’t really understand how they do that.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist heh, it's a bit like that in faux U accent

tchrist

Roight!

@JohanLarsson Kitties do.

And coons.

And poohbears.

Noah

19:05

Hi

Do insulins have any severe side effects?

tchrist

But Christopher Robin uses a proper rod and hook.

Insulin is become a count noun?

Noah

Is it not?

Mitch

@Noah Speaking as someone with absolutely no medical knowledge whatsoever... WTF, why are you asking?

@tchrist There are many kinds of insulin.

@Noah But no seriously it is not.

Johan Larsson

@tchrist I'm not a cat-person

Noah

A friends father has diabetes and the doctor has put him on insulin.

tchrist

19:07

Those are kinds of insulin, not kinds of insulins.

Noah

I am not talking about the hormone. I am talking about the injection.

Mitch

Then you'd say 'insulin injections' if that's what you meant, wouldn't you?

Noah

Right. Just wanted to shorten it.

Mitch

info on side effects of insulin

Noah

In any event. Does anyone know anything about insulin injections?

Mitch

19:09

But really, do you mean the needle stick or the action of the substance?

Noah

the action of the substance.

tchrist

Come not to Dr Internet for medical advice.

Noah

She is worried that it may harm him in the long run.

Mitch

Then fixing your first statement would be the way to ask "Does insulin have any side effects?"

tchrist

Not as much as not being on it will harm him.

Mitch

19:11

@Noah Really, you (or she or him) should ask a doctor.

tchrist

I have three close family who are diabetic, so I can speak with some authority: TALK TO A DOCTOR ABOUT ALL THIS!

Noah

She is my age, don't think if she would go to a Dr.

tchrist

That’s dumb.

Mitch

so 'she' doesn't know if she has diabetes, but is considering taking insulin for some reason, but is worried about the side effects?

tchrist

And you can’t end a sentence with Dr.

Mitch

19:13

I think you should be worried first for not asking a doctor what's really going on.

tchrist

Unless you live on Murphy Dr.

Noah

No, it's not *she*/her. It's her father.

tchrist

She should still talk to a doctor.

Mitch

@tchrist I don't think going to a Drive would help much. Unless the Dr. lives there.

Noah

@tchrist But you knew what I meant :)

tchrist

19:14

Accept no one less trained than an RN for this sort of thing.

Honest.

Noah

Okay.

Do we have a medical SE site?

tchrist

If he’s been put on insulin, it’s because his disease is too far advanced to be controlled by other means. They’re trying to keep him alive a little longer.

Mitch

No medical SE site.

Noah

That's what I thought. But does diabetes kill you if you use insulin all the time?

As prescribed by your doctor.

tchrist

That’s a bizarre question.

Noah

19:17

The doctor has told him that using insulin would make him live like a normal, healthy person. It wouldn't really have any serious side effects at all.

tchrist

You have reason to mistrust this doctor?

High blood sugar is a highly toxic poison.

It will kill you.

You don’t worry about the long-term side effects of taking insulin when the short-term side effect of not taking insulin is death.

Your choice, though.

Mitch

@Noah You should read up on diabetes instead of coming for a quick answer. You'll feel better about what the doc is saying.

Noah

Okay. Thanks guys.

Cerberus

19:42

@Mitch Yes, I am sure Slavic people would not disagree!

Thanks for quoting me!

Cerberus

20:56

4

Q: "have" vs."have got" in American and British English

I have looked through several questions and answers on EL&U, and often there is an indication that American English prefers "have" while British English prefers "have got". In addition, there are several references to "have got" being more informal than "have" (e.g.: When to use "have" and "have got

differences american-english british-english formality have-got

It can't believe noöne was able to tell the OP in 10+ comments that, yes, have got is somewhat informal in Britain, whereas in formal contexts have is almost exclusively used.

Even in the answers it is not made clear!

3

Q: What, exactly, is the point of beginning a sentence with "Well..."?

Sample conversation: Person 1: What did you think of the movie? Person 2: Well, the acting was great, but the plot was terrible. What does "well" actually add to the body of the sentence? I have never heard any sentence spoken or written whose meaning was absolutely dependent on beginn...

word-usage filler-words

Please reopen this one, people: it's not a duplicate. The question is not answered in the other question. This one is specifically about well.

@Reg I'm looking at you.

The other question and answers do not address well specifically or extensively.

MετάEd

21:51

@Cerberus Well not well well anyway.

Cerberus

@MετάEd Well, yes.

Hey do you happen to know anything about MAC addresses?

Could one have one's phone switch to a new MAC address after every reboot with impunity?

Or would that make it hard/impossible to automatically connect to Wifi networks?

Johan Larsson

22:06

Packing turned out to be a breeze, gf had turned the mess into perfect order so it was a matter of minutes

MετάEd

@Cerberus Some WiFi networks, yes: because the network administrator can whitelist MAC addresses. When your device's identity changes, it may no longer be whitelisted.

Cerberus

@MετάEd Yeah OK, true.

But any other networks, to which anyone with the password can connect?

I want to randomize/spoof my MAC address because shops are beginning to record MAC addresses and your route through their shop and who knows what, sharing their data with other shops? And this:

in The Frying Pan, 6 mins ago, by Cerberus

No, this isn’t a scene from Minority Report. This trash can is stalking you

@MετάEd So, apart from such whitelisting networks, which I am fortunate enough not to have to deal with, do you think there would be any other problems, presumably having to do with connecting to things?

MετάEd

@Cerberus I can't think of another problem.

Cerberus

@MετάEd OK, cool.

Then I'm going to try out some MAC-spoofing/randomising applications.

Do you use a smartphone, and do you broadcast your MAC address when walking/driving around town?

Originally Posted by ShadowDrake View Post
can't connect to any networks
Same. The changing process works fine, (altough manually via terminal emulator because the automatic tool doesn't seem to have any effect) and the changed mac is also shown in the system settings, but if i try to connect to a WPA2 secured accesspoint, it "authenticates" forever, while unsecured connections do work instanty.

A have tried MAC spoofing for a long time on my linux PC and came across connection problems to a WPA2 secured network with a spoofed MAC address...and then I found this bug/workaround and got it to work...you have to change the MAC address BEFORE the network manager is started in the upstart script...maybe there is a similar issue in andoid?

bugs.launchpad.net|ubuntu|+source|network-manager|+bug|787192 (I may not post outside links yet ...use https and change the | to /)

I have been able to spoof my mac address on Android but like some it seems that connecting to a secure network even with a correct key doesn't seem to work...

I see a lot of people with problems connecting to Wifi after changing their MAC address. Could these all be whitelisting routers? I don't think so?

Johan Larsson

22:21

in Lounge<C++> on Stack Overflow Chat, 4 mins ago, by Rapptz

http://mypiracy.net/

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson That's odd. I haven't downloaded those two torrents. Instead, I have download 100 others.

So it's wrong.

MετάEd

@Cerberus That could simply be a bug in the device, or in the app.

Cerberus

@MετάEd It is true that those posts were all from people using a Nexus S.

But...what if my phone has a similar bug...

I'm scared!

Matt Эллен

lots of cute cat gifs

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus what torrents did it list for you?

Cerberus

22:28

1 Brave (2012) TS(xvid) NL Subs DMT 2012-10-05 00:06:51 1
2 Mr. Popper's Penguins (2011)Cam Nl subs Nlt-Release(Divx) 2012-09-25 21:35:12 1

But that guy in chat says his torrents were accurate 2 out of 3.

MετάEd

@Cerberus Then I suppose you would remove the app.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Yayyyy!

@MετάEd Would that restore everything?

I have no idea how phones deal with MAC addresses.

But I suppose an application can't touch the bootloader, even on superuser.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus I had Holy grail & wrath of titans, don't think it is accurate

Here we can see what China downloads, if it is accurate.

MετάEd

@Cerberus The original MAC address is encoded on a chip by the manufacturer. If you are not changing it at boot time you should get the original address. I am speaking from experience with many older devices. It is possible something's changed lately, but I doubt it.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson It is odd how they have only two or three results per address for you and me and that other guy.

@MετάEd Ah OK. It does make sense.

Johan Larsson

22:34

I have no idea what that site is, saw it just now. Can be pure bs.

Cerberus

Possibly.

TRiG

23:34

fruitfully utillize

David Wallace

I hate that word.

TRiG

It does tend to be exceedingly overused.

David Wallace

Why can't people say "use" when they mean "use"?

tchrist

I challenge you to show me an appropriate utilization where it would not be better to utilize use.

I have never found one.

TRiG

@tchrist In theory, utilize means "use to full effect", or something like that, doesn't it?

*heads off to Onelook.com to check*

tchrist

23:44

Not to my knowledge.

OED has: “To make or render useful; to convert to use, turn to account. Rare before 1858. ‘Utilize is fast antiquating improve, in the sense of "turn to account"’ (1873 F. Hall Mod. Eng. 167).”

That would be saying it means “to make useful”.

As opposed to making use of, or simply using.

Cerberus

@TRiG *overutilized

TRiG

> tr to make practical or worthwhile use of

Collins

In which case, "fruitfully utilize" is a tautology.

Cerberus

@tchrist That would be better.

MετάEd

What's happened is we have failed to utilize utilize.

tchrist

1807 J. Barlow Columbiad ix. 683 - [To] Improve and utilise each opening birth, And aid the labors of this nurturing earth.
1824 Westm. Rev. April 454 - Izmail and Kilia..are respectively able to nullify or to utilize the northern mouth of the Danube.
1860 Ruskin Mod Paint. V. ix. xi. §22 - Let all physical exertion..be utilized.
1882 Pitman Mission Life in Greece & Pal. 123 - Her services could not be utilised for missions.

It’s annoying business jargon from the American Civil War era. :)

@TRiG Somebody is thinking disfrutar again.

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