English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

O0oO0oOO0ooO

00:04

haha

Japan is the most hated country in the world

KitFox

@RegDwighт Not that it can't be, but that it takes significant resources to do so, so why bother unless you have other information to help you narrow it down?

@JohanLarsson Egg fart: really disgusting smelly sulphuric fart. Egging: pelting someone's house or car with eggs as a prank.

Mitch

> They are really suck. They are always lie and dirty.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

lol

I know the ranking is cheated or force modified by both Japanese and Korean because it's obvious by looking at people's grammar errors

but reading those comments and knowing how they think about each countries is funny

Mitch

@tchrist soy sauce is next to chocolate and butter? Why don't they just put onions next to corn?

aahh...I see that they did.

KitFox

@RegDwighт coins in my cup when you hold my hand surely that means you care for me when you hold my hand surely that must mean you do care for me you said you'd read my fortune dancing in the pouring rain you told me 'bout your nightmares been scared at times shot the president right between the eyes [repeat chorus]

On the first pass. I could probably get more if I wasn't trying to transcribe it at the same time.

The beginning is something about walking on the bridge. Let me listen again.

I called out once I saw you, walking on bridge and blowing your hands. You smiled as you approached me then you threw a little coin into my cup. When you hold my hand surely that must mean you do care for me, when you hold my hand surely that must mean you do care for me. You said you'd read my fortune, then you showed me a future dancing in the pouring rain. You told me of your nightmares became scared at times shot the president right between the eyes. (chorus x2)

After listening hard three times.

It's got a Cajun feel to the cadence though. I imagine it would be difficult for many native speakers to hear it.

And I'm not sure of some of it.

Mitch

00:26

> They ruin our country with their immigrants, whenever something is stolen it's usually them. And every time I have been offended by a person its one of them because they think they are so though and better than us

O0oO0oOO0ooO

I am from USA and living in Tokyo, Japan. I thought Japanese are polite and there are low crime rate in Japan before I had been here. Now I think the fact is NOT true. 1 years ago, I went to Chiyoda-ku to see Kokyo(The place where Japanese emperor's family live). After walking through Higashigyoen and having lunch, I passed by Yasukuni Jinja. While I was passing there, I saw many Japanese right-wing people wagging Japanese flag and Japanese navy's flag and shouting "Ten-no-hei-ka-ban-zai-! " and "Ko-goku-jin-min-ban-zai-! ". I thought that is strange. Suddenly, they started to shout to me "…

I thought that is strange. Suddenly, they started to shout to me "Huaito pigu gou homu! ". I felt discomfort and noticed they are saying "White pig go home! "

hhaa

haha

KitFox

> Andorra: These people disgust me.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

Huaito pigu gou homu! HAHA

@Mitch hahah " they think they are so though"

Mitch

It's refreshing to hear some honesty

pre-literate honesty

> I am still angry about Greenland being more icy than Iceland. My entire life feels like a lie.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

Korean people never say "Huaito Pigu gou homu desu!" to foreigners =/ We welcome people from all around the world

Mitch

00:35

that goddamn greenland

Insults so many in one line:

> Maybe worst European next to Portuguese. Russians are better than them.

Wow, that's gotta sting, Russians are better.

Cerberus

@O0oO0oOO0ooO How come this person is American but unable to write proper English?

And that list totally random.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

I think he wrote that comment informally, that's all.

Cerberus

00:51

It's not so much informal as full of mistakes no native speaker would make...

Perhaps he had lived in Japan for so long that he had forgotten how to write in English...

@KitFox I hear "...and you showed me a few of your dance moves, in the pouring rain".

Mitch

No that is just way too many NNS solecisms. You cant forget that much unless you have a stroke. And even then. Well, maybe if you're Russian.

Cerberus

But the articulation is very poor (nothing wrong with that in a song, of course!).

@Mitch In that case, it's a lie.

Mitch

But they know how to transcribe Japanese into English. SO they're no uneducated. Urban Dictionary is where you go to see native english make mistakes, typos, not caring, etc. and like you said, no native speaker would -ever- make mstakes like in that passage -even- on purpose.

so yeah I think it's a lie.

Cerberus

> Urban Dictionary is where you go to see native english make mistakes, typos, not caring, etc.

Or here!

Mitch

!!

Caprica Six

01:01

@Mitch That didn't make much sense. Use the help command to learn more.

Cerberus

See?

Mitch

See? even Caprica thinks I can't spell.

Cerberus

Exactly.

Mitch

!!/jinx

Caprica Six

Mitch

01:02

nice

Cerberus

Haha, you've made everything quite efficient for yourself in this room, haven't you?

Mitch

Actually, the thing that annoys me is calling someone from Japan 'a Japanese'. Like fingernails on a blackboard.

I didn't do it, I'm just using what is there for me naturally.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah.

Really, you would never hear a Dutch say that.

Mitch

So how did you learn English so well?

so natural?

Cerberus

Thanks, oh, I don't know.

Mitch

01:04

You don't type with an accent at all.

Cerberus

Nò?

Mitch

and actually not very British. (like @MattЭллен)

Cerberus

I'm probably Atlantic...

Mitch

did you spend a lot of time as a child in England or the US?

Cerberus

Nope.

Mitch

01:05

or is it just movies and TV?

and trying real hard?

Cerberus

But we just see and hear a lot of English here.

Mitch

So do the Scottish but..

Cerberus

Movies, TV, the Internet, games, but also lots of foreigners and tourists.

They do have a weird accent, that is true.

Mitch

ha ha.

Cerberus

Oh, and school.

And English is closely related to Dutch too.

Mitch

01:07

Lots of people have language in school.

Cerberus

Yeah, and people's French and German somehow always suck. Here.

What languages did you take in school?

Sudhir

Hi @Cerberus

Good and fresh morning.

Meysam

Hi

Sudhir

@Cerberus:How do you do?

Meysam

What's the meaning of "utility" in "Currently you receive a utility allowance credit towards your rent to help offset the cost of electricity in your unit.". Water and electricity?

Cerberus

01:15

Hi!

@Meysam Yes, water and electricity.

Possibly also something like telephone and/or Internet access.

But traditionally, it would be energy and water.

Meysam

Ok

What's the meaning of "receiving utility allowance credit towards your rent". Does it mean paying more rent or less rent or what? It's not much clear.

Sudhir

@Cerberus: This carpenter is the most skilled of all the others carpenters in our workshop.

error?

Cerberus

@Meysam It is indeed a bit vague (possibly a common formula), but it must mean that electricity is included in the rent, and you get a credit to offset the part of your rent that is the electricity cost.

Normally, when something counts towards something else, it means that x is part of the equation resulting in the total y.

As in, the number of points from closed questions counts towards your total points, or does not count towards.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

"Here's $15 in-store credit towards your next purchase!"

Meysam

@Cerberus Thanks.

Cerberus

01:21

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Yeah, like that.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Hi!

Cerberus

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 So you agree with my explanation, right?

Meysam

What cornbread said. Hi.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Cerberus definitely.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

good evening

Cerberus

01:22

@Sudhir It is probably acceptable to most people, but strictly you would have to leave out other.

Evening!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and to you!

Sudhir

@Cerberus: Its morning here.

Cerberus

Because the "most skilled" carpenter is part of "all the carpenters"; that is, "all" includes the "most skilled" carpenter, so you can't say "other".

@Sudhir That was to Mr Shiny.

Sudhir

@Cerberus: This carpenter is the most skilled of all the carpenters in our workshop.

It sounds Okay?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> Currently you receive a utility allowance credit towards your rent to help offset the cost of electricity in your unit.

Cerberus

01:25

@Sudhir Perfect!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think this means that the rent is reduced because the tenant is expected to pay for the full electricity bill.

Cerberus

Alternatively, this is the most skilled carpenter in our workshop.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But why would that happen?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Traditionally rent includes electricity

Sudhir

@Cerberus: When other comes?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

but more and more landlords are splitting the electricity costs from the rental fee because the prices change too rapidly and the tenant's usage can drastically affect the bill size.

Cerberus

01:27

@Sudhir When that exceptional carpenter is not one of the other carpenters.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so for a tenant who rents under a fee structure that includes electricity, when their electricity bill is split from their rent, the rent should go down.

Cerberus

There are three people in this room: Sudhir, Mr S, and Cerberus. Of all the other people in the room, Cerberus is the most canine.

In English and many other languages, other is exclusive: it excludes Cerberus. And you can't say Cerberus is one of the people in the room excluding Cerberus!

Mitch

@Cerberus whoa dude...that's a bit presumptuous.

Meysam

Does this make sense based on what we just discussed? "Effective May 21st, due to the decrease in the utility allowance, your rent will increase by $10."

Cerberus

@Mitch But true!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:29

@Cerberus Yes. But informally people use "most" and "other" together.

Mitch

@Cerberus French.

Cerberus

> It is probably acceptable to most people

Mitch

@Cerberus That's not the point!

Cerberus

@Mitch Cool.

Sudhir

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇: It means "most" and "other" can't come together?

Meysam

01:30

Shouldn't it be "increase"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Meysam All that matters is "blah blah blah your rent is going up $10".

Cerberus

@Mitch The blunt end, then?

Mitch

the butt end!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Meysam No. The formula is gross_rent - utility_allowance = net_rent.

Cerberus

@Sudhir No, they can be used together.

Mitch

01:31

well, the eraser.

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh noes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

As utility_allowance gets smaller and smaller, net_rent gets larger and approaches gross_rent.

Meysam

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Simple math.

Sudhir

@Cerberus: If it were like that This carpenter is more skilled of all the others carpenters in our workshop.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Meysam yes. But that's where the increases and decreases come in.

@Sudhir "more skilled than all the other"

Cerberus

01:34

@Sudhir That is correct, with more skilled than all.

Because more...than is also exclusive, so it goes with other, while the most...of is inclusive.

Sudhir

@Cerberus:What's the difference between all the others and than that of.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

time for me to fly.

Cerberus

Bye!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Happy Canada Day

Cerberus

Uh, thanks!

@Sudhir I don't know what you mean.

Sudhir

01:36

This carpenter is more skilled than that of all the others carpenters in our workshop.

Cerberus

You can't say the more skilled...than.

If you use the, you can't use than.

And I don't understand why you use that.

@Sudhir You need to remove that of.

Sudhir

When to use that of?

The US temp is less than that of India.

Cerberus

When you compare two instances of the same object but with a different possessor:

@Sudhir Yes, like that.

Mitch

Are you taking classes now Sudhir?

Sudhir

@Mitch: No

It bites me a lot.

Mitch

01:40

learning just for fun? From a book?

Sudhir

yes

@Cerberus:When you compare two instances of the same object but with a different possessor

Mitch

That's an interrsting idiom ('it bites me a lot'). It is not used in English.

Sudhir

I didn't get you.

tchrist

@Mitch Pends on the pooch.

Cerberus

@Sudhir Well, you have to instances of temperature that you are comparing: the US temperature and the temperature of India.

Mitch

01:42

"It bites me a lot" is not used by native Enlgish speaking people. It sounds like you just translated word for word from your native language.

Cerberus

One temperature belongs to the USA, while the other belongs to India. And you're comparing the two.

Sudhir

@Cerberus: Why do we haven't used than that in carpenter eg?

tchrist

dumps core

Cerberus

I don't think you can use that of for people, can you?

Mitch

I don't want to read that dump.

Cerberus

01:43

*My carpenter is better than that of my uncle?

Sudhir

Oh!

Cerberus

@Mitch That doesn't sound right, does it?

tchrist

@Cerberus ew

No.

Cerberus

It sounds like the carpenter is an object.

tchrist

No one would ever really say that.

Cerberus

01:44

Right.

tchrist

> My carpenter is better than my uncle.

Mitch

Because of the situation. The grammar is fine to me (for written school book grammar).

Cerberus

Better than my uncle's, you could say.

Mitch

... than my uncle's

tchrist

> My carpenter is better than my uncle’s. [carpenter]

Mitch

01:44

!!/jinx

Caprica Six

Mitch

!!/yay

Cerberus

Haha.

Caprica Six

@Mitch That didn't make much sense. Use the help command to learn more.

tchrist

hip

Mitch

01:45

@CapricaSix Bite me.

hop?

tchrist

Careful, I hear she bites you a lot.

Cerberus

She bites you a lot, doesn't she?

!!/jinx

Mitch

little nibbles.

Caprica Six

Sudhir

@Cerberus: When to use any other?

Cerberus

01:46

That means almost the same as "another", but it's stronger.

Usually with a negation or after than.

Or in a question.

Mitch

That's a whole nother question.

tchrist

Quaerendo invenietis

Cerberus

When the other person might reply, "no other!".

Mitch

I hear 'nother' -all- the time now. It's very natural now. Soon everybody will be using "y'all".

Cerberus

Soon, but not yet.

Mitch

01:47

@Cerberus sounds like the start of a tragic love affair.

tchrist

Ebberbuddy duz.

Cerberus

@Mitch Or the end.

Sudhir

This carpenter is more skilled than any other carpenters in our workshop.

Mitch

The butt end!

tchrist

dumps core

Cerberus

01:48

Right before she disappears from the stage to kill herself, as one does in classical theatre.

Mitch

not 'others', just 'other'

Cerberus

@Sudhir *any other

Mitch

"any other carpenter"

Sudhir

@Cerberus: Is it right?

Cerberus

You only use others when you use it as a noun, not as an adjective.

Mitch

01:49

dumps core right on stage? There'd be riots at the box office!

The censors would send in the troops.

Even Russians would be ashamed!

Cerberus

@Sudhir I would say any other carpenter.

tchrist

Jeebiz carpents best.

Mitch

Christ.

tchrist

t

Cerberus

Perhaps the plural is acceptable to some people, but singular is certainly better.

Mitch

01:50

in so many ways!

The singularity has already come.

tchrist

@Cerberus To non-anglophones, mainly.

Cerberus

You can sometimes use plural with any, but in a different type of sentence.

Mitch

! !

Cerberus

@tchrist I don't know, I think it might also be found in very informal speech...

tchrist

is grievously wounded

Cerberus

01:51

Are there any carpenters in the room?

tchrist

Damn gunnuts!

Sudhir

"This carpenter is more skilled than any other carpenters in our workshop"
"This carpenter is more skilled than all the other carpenters in our workshop"

tchrist

stomps foot

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

You only use others when you use it as a noun, not as an adjective.

Mitch

This carpenter is more skilled than any other carpenter in our workshop
This carpenter is more skilled than all the other carpenters in our workshop

Cerberus

*This carpenter is more skilled than any other **carpenter** in our workshop*
*This carpenter is more skilled than all the **other** carpenters in our workshop*

tchrist

01:52

@Mitch s/the//

Mitch

works both aways for me.

tchrist

Only get formatting on one line.

Sudhir

@Cerberus: both mean the same?

tchrist

@Mitch I’ve heard that about you.

Cerberus

@Sudhir Yes. But notice that your first sentence is still wrong.

tchrist

01:53

s/the// || s/all//

Mitch

sure those work too

Sudhir

Okay.

Cerberus

Your first sentence should have carpenter singular.

Mitch

sudhir, I'm sure you've been asked this here before, but what is your native language?

what you speak with your parents.

tchrist

Q#$Q@#$^^!FT%^!

Cerberus

01:55

@tchrist Let's stay polite!

Mitch

Uh oh. tchrist's just passed out and his head smashed into his keyboard.

Cerberus

Or his cat.

Mitch

Ow, that would hurt the cat.

Cerberus

Sprightly old Mr Whiskers just jumped onto the keyboard himself.

Mitch

If only they knew how to type they'd realize how inopportune that is.

Unless it's a piano keyboard then it's tunes all the time!

Cerberus

01:57

Cats on pianos!

Mitch

where's that rimshot machine?

Cerberus

!!/rimshot

Caprica Six

@Cerberus That didn't make much sense. Use the help command to learn more.

Cerberus

No, you need help.

Mitch

man I thought that was going to work.

@Caprica doesn't listen very well.

Cerberus

02:00

It makes me said to read that European politicians are now calling your country "an enemy nation".

I'm sorry, I shouldn't read the papers.

@Mitch Cute!

Sudhir

@Cerberus: It'd be 4am at your clock?

Mitch

@Cerberus Is that what they're saying? Puh-leez. It's like the mayor of Casablanca saying "I'm shocked. positively shocked"

Cerberus

@Sudhir Correct!

tchrist

@Cerberus “At”?

Mitch

What? no!

Sudhir

02:05

When you go to sleep?

tchrist

do-support

Mitch

"It'd be 4am your time". Is that what you're trying to sa?

Cerberus

@Mitch I'm not sure I should be talking to an enemy agent...

@tchrist The time, not the grammar.

tchrist

Check the NATO signatories.

Mitch

@Cerberus ha ha...I've lulled you into a false sense of complacency and free talking. I can ask the most innocent thing and then...

BAM!

I tell your mom!

Cerberus

02:07

Noooo...

Mitch

I'll tell her what you said about that time...when you know...there's a record of it.

Cerberus

Nooo...

I didn't know I was a "third-tier" country...

Mitch

You said you had liked the pot roast she made, but really, you had eaten a late lunch, and didn't really feel like eating.

She'd be crushed.

YOu monster.

Sudhir

@Cerberus: *This carpenter is the most skilled of all the carpenters in our workshop.*
Versus
*This carpenter is the most skilled carpenter in our workshop.*
Which would be more apt?

Mitch

You don't even -get- a tier.

Cerberus

02:09

I am a monster, that is true.

Mitch

Both are grammatical. Depends on the meaning you want to get across.

the first has more emphasis.

@Cerberus to your mom, which is the worst kind.

Cerberus

@Sudhir Both correct.

What Mitch says.

Sudhir

@Cerberus Someone told me , 'all' is superfluous with a superlative degree..superlative degree itself means 'best of all'

Mitch

What Cerb says about what I say.

Cerberus

@Mitch Well, you have seen her...

Mitch

02:11

Have I?

Cerberus

@Sudhir It is true that you can leave out all, yes. But it adds extra emphasis, and it is certainly not wrong.

Sudhir

So If I've to choose between the two, which is more apt here?

Cerberus

Mahnax

Good morning, Cerberus.

Cerberus

@Sudhir There is very little difference. I depends on context, but I think you can't really go wrong.

Mitch

02:13

'all' adds emphasis.

Sudhir

@Cerberus:google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://jauntbharat.com/wp-content/…

Its cool.

Cerberus

Funny.

tchrist

@Cerberus Ichthyocentaur!

Mitch

@Cerberus ohhhh. is that the little mermaid? Persephone? I could lok it up but asking is easier.

tchrist

What’s with the piglets?

Sudhir

02:15

How you find it?

@Cerberus: World's Tallest Shiva Idol.

Cerberus

@tchrist I actually don't know whether that qualifies as centaury...

@Mitch Um, sort of.

@Sudhir It's...tall!

Sudhir

Its too tall.

tchrist

Merlad?

Sudhir

You can see by comparing men's height in picture.

tchrist

With piggies?

Cerberus

02:18

Echidna (mythology)

In Greek mythology, Echidna (Ancient Greek: Ἔχιδνα, "she viper") was half woman half snake, known as the "Mother of All Monsters" because most of the monsters in Greek myth were mothered by her. Hesiod's Theogony described her as: [...] the goddess fierce Echidna who is half a nymph with glancing eyes and fair cheeks, and half again a huge snake, great and awful, with speckled skin, eating raw flesh beneath the secret parts of the holy earth. And there she has a cave deep down under a hollow rock far from the deathless gods and mortal men. There, then, did the gods appoint her a glorious h...

tchrist

That’s a girl?

Cerberus

What else could she be?

tchrist

I thought your picture was male.

Sudhir

yes.

Mitch

@Cerberus hilarious. so misogynistic.

Cerberus

02:20

How?

Sudhir

a hatred of women

simchona

I don't think he needed the definition so much as the reasoning

Mitch

cute at first but behind it a monster.

such self centered thinking.

Sudhir

@Cerberus:google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://www.shreehindutemple.net/…

google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://www.shreehindutemple.net/…

Mitch

the sea view in the other was great. Where is that?

Sudhir

02:25

@Cerberus You can't imagine Hanuman carried the whole mountain in his hand.

@Mitch: Its in India.

Mitch

wher in india? Kerala or Tamil Nadu? somewhere further north?

Sudhir

In South, Karnataka.

@simchona: One of my question was pending.

Could you please re-open it?

simchona

@Sudhir Which one, and why

As in, why should I unilaterally open it instead of letting the community

Sudhir

I didn't got ans yet.

simchona

No, that's not a reason to reopen a question.

It has to be a good question: link it, and I'll take a look. But I'm not automatically opening it if there isn't some substance

Sudhir

02:32

Actually when I posted firstly, it contain some typing error so it was put on hold. After I corrected it, but it is still in pending list.

simchona

Again, please post the link

I'm not going to go searching through your questions

Sudhir

-2

Q: "Decline of his morale" vs. "decline in his morale"

The decline of/in his morale was caused by a lot of factors that were once fascinating to him. I am confused between the idiomatic expression decline in and decline of. Which is more apt to use here? P.S.: I know decline of an emperor is commonly used.

simchona

@Sudhir Ok, I'm going to edit it and reopen it.

In the future, it might help to read through your question first before it gets posted

Sudhir

Its a worthy question?

Also, I didn't get why it was down-voted?

simchona

You don't really show a lot of research.

The question is fine, but it's not the best. One downvote was from the closing, the other is from some user who thought (as I do, but didn't vote) that you didn't do a lot of research first

tchrist

02:37

►

Sudhir

You've deleted my PS.

simchona

I moved it.

To me, the post script helped a lot more when incorporated into the rest of the question

Sudhir

As you wish.

@simchona: Only moderator can close or re-open?

simchona

@Sudhir No.

Sudhir

Then?

simchona

02:40

Then what?

Sudhir

Who can close or re-open?

simchona

Anyone with 5000 reputation. It takes five normal, non-moderator votes

Mitch

people with enough rep can vote to close or re-open. it takes 5. Or a mod can just do it (no voting necessary)

Sudhir

Oh!

simchona

Which is why I wanted your reasons why I should reopen--because it would be automatic

Sudhir

02:42

@simchona You deserve it.

simchona

Deserve what?

Sudhir

a flag as a moderator.

Good knowledge in English.

:)

Didn't liked my comment?

simchona

Sorry hon, this chat isn't my numero uno priority

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

02:58

Yeow, that is big.

Robusto

Jun 27 at 21:59, by Robusto

Le Monocle de Mon Oncle

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…