English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwight АΑA

13:00

@KitFox I have been deleting comments here and there, but I also kept some around for easy access later. Basically if he completely derails the conversation (i.e. people respond, and he responds right back again), I purge it all. If it's just a single comment of his that everyone ignores, I keep it around for the time being, as a signpost.

Matt Эллен

@Reg - you are the best

RegDwight АΑA

I also commented on his meta question. Tell me if I am too much snark.

Mitch

1

Q: "Walk my way" in the following

Can I use "walk my way" in the following situation: I had an argument with a bus driver about the elections, and she got really angry. So I had to get off the bus and walk my way.

expressions

"If I had to walk that way, I wouldn't need talcum powder."

That is all.

KitFox

afk

RegDwight АΑA

@MattЭллен why thank you, but why? Context, man. We require context round here.

Matt Эллен

13:02

@RegDwightАΑA I read your comment on the Meta question

RegDwight АΑA

Ah that.

Well it was a ripoff of this chat.

Not much bestness required to copypaste.

Matt Эллен

and he has just proved that he can be coherent if he likes:

RegDwight is right! However "walk my way" attracts the reader's attention to this phrase, even if that is a deviation from the norm: 'walk' would normally be intransitive, so it would be better to say "make my way"! — Xavier Vidal Hernández 1 hour ago

Robusto

@RegDwightАΑA Nope. I can commute all by myself. Laters.

simchona

@MattЭллен I want to be able to use lots of punctuation!

RegDwight АΑA

Have fun mutating.

Matt Эллен

13:03

so I assume he is talking nonsense on purpose

@simchona And exclaim! Especially when it's not surprising!

Cerberus

@Rob: The Greek suffix -ma is always neuter, and neuter words always have the same form in nominative and accusative, so that would be ad gramma. As to the N, I don't know where that came from. Possibly from number/numerus? Then it should be argumentum ad numeri gramma.

Or whichever variation you like.

RegDwight АΑA

Or graNdma for short.

Cerberus

Yes, or that.

Matt Эллен

So Gandma is neuter? Interesting

Cerberus

Uhuh.

Matt Эллен

13:11

hiya @Cerb :)

RegDwight АΑA

So Lady Gaga in Poker Face is singing in neuter? Interesting.

Cerberus

Hello.

RegDwight АΑA

I have a weird feeling you two are chatting backwards.

Mitch

@RegDwightАΑA I agree with your assessment that Xavier's communication skills are...interesting (very academic, but somewhat opaque). However, it seems extreme to delete his comments. They're not hurting anybody. Your stated reason for deleting, sorry, your spot-on example of incomprehensibility does not seem serious enough grounds for deleting. There should be quite a bit more deleting of other comments -well- before- deleting Xavier's.

Cerberus

Good morning!

Do.

Matt Эллен

13:13

do do do?

Cerberus

Hi.

Mitch

@simchona: you stated reason for deleting Xavier's comments seems pretty minor. "Chatty"? "Noise"? There's much more that is worse.

RegDwight АΑA

@Mitch I think at this point I deleted exactly two of his comments. Look at what I left. And your assumption that there isn't quite a bit more deleting of other comments well before deleting Xavier's is wrong. Once again, you don't see stuff that you don't see.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA @simchona Were mods alerted to these comments due to flags, or did you guys just happen to notice them on your own?

simchona

@Mitch It's actually quite valid.

Cerberus

13:14

I agree with Mitch.

KitFox

@RegDwightАΑA I just pruned an argument. I figured that was probably OK.

Mitch

@RegDwightАΑA good point...I don't see all the stuff that is removed.

tchrist

@Mitch I can see both a removed a and a removed space.

RegDwight АΑA

The thing is, comments are there to improve answers. There really is little reason to have comments beyond that. So ideally, all comments are subject to deletion sooner or later.

Cerberus

When there is any doubt, leave it be.

Mitch

13:16

it has the feeling of targetting.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh. uh, yes. So you're saying "When in doubt burn it to the ground" isn't the right approach?

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA Comments are often, maybe usually, there for reasons other than that. Basically chattery or argumentation.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I know, I'm weird like that.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist flags. That is, someone else other than myself found them off-topic, or noise, or offensive.

KitFox

"When irritated, remove it."

JSBձոգչ

13:16

mostly X's comments should be allowed to stand, and so have been allowed

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA I think that is different then.

KitFox

@tchrist Or jokes.

tchrist

I cannot know for sure, but I suspect that only a low proportion of his comments have been flagged.

Cerberus

If anyone really thinks most comments are about improving the answer, then...I don't know what to say. That is rare.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist yes in the early days they were used to establish a sense of community. Humor, human bonds, etc. Still lots of that around, and it's not a bad thing at all. But we do have chat, which is a better venue.

tchrist

13:18

And similarly few deleted.

Cerberus

I'm not so sure chat is better.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist I think as a 10k user you can see the flags.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus improving answers or questions. yes, that is ideally what comments are exclusively for.

Cerberus

Comments are right next to the question and will be seen by others who view the question. That is probably their main advantage.

RegDwight АΑA

The boilerplate ones, that is. You only can't see custom flags for mod attention, where people enter some special reasoning of theirs.

KitFox

13:19

@RegDwightАΑA No, you can't see comment flags.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен And they usually don't result in that.

Mitch

I'm surprised that X's comments are considered flaggable (seems like the example of "I'm awesome like that" being flagged over in a religious site.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus but they're trying to encourage it

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox has that changed? I remember getting those back when I was 10k and not a mod...

KitFox

All comments are flaggable, @Mitch.

@RegDwightАΑA I think just question/answer flags.

Cerberus

13:20

@MattЭллен Yes, but they might have to delete 90 % of all comments.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus good!

comments are just comments

Cerberus

So simply stating that comment x does not lead to "improving the question" and is therefore deleted is not very consistent.

Matt Эллен

if it should be in an answer (or question) move it there

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox Well let's stop guessing. Someone go flag a comment of mine please.

Then someone else with 10k go check out the flags tab.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен 99 % of comments shouldn't be answers.

JSBձոգչ

13:21

i'll do it!

Matt Эллен

if it should be acted upon (request for more context, etc.) then it should be acted upon then deleted.

@Cerberus so?

JSBձոգչ

wait, it's not possible to flag a comment that you've also upvoted

weird

KitFox

Haha

Cerberus

So it doesn't make sense to single out a few comments based on criteria that we simply don't apply to 90 % of the comments.

KitFox

Oops.

Mitch

13:22

@KitFox my remark is that I'm surprised that a non-mod or someone not reading our chat from yesterday would think that his comments are bothersome to the extent they should be flagged. I think his comments are just as Reg satirizes, but I have a hard time imagining someone being so annoyed by them to think they should be flagged.

KitFox

I killed Reg's comment.

Matt Эллен

@JSBձոգչ we'll have to form pairs - one gets to up vote and the other gets to flag

@Cerberus I'd say it doesn't make sense to have all the comments. But we only see what we see.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus we apply that criteria to all comments given enough time. When I come across a two-year old question with comments that are obsolete, I delete them.

Cerberus

@Mitch I agree, mostly because I think that guy is not a troll, or not intentionally so, and because people shouldn't really be bothered by him.

RegDwight АΑA

I will also regularly search our site for "Thanks. Fixed." and purge those, too.

Cerberus

13:24

@MattЭллен What do you mean, Jasper?

KitFox

@Mitch Yes, but they are littered all over the site. Some people are annoyed by that and have flagged.

Sorry I nuked your comment Reg. You want to put it back?

I just forgot I could do that.

Mitch

@KitFox may I be so bold as to ask what the reasons given were? (for flagging X's material)

RegDwight АΑA

@Mitch people flag the most innocent stuff. So I'm not really surprised. Besides, we kind of encourage flagging, across the network. Better too many flags than too few.

KitFox

@Mitch You may ask.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA If you divide the number of comments you delete by the number of new comments every day, what percentage would you estimate you got?

Mitch

13:25

@RegDwightАΑA OK

KitFox

Seven!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I mean, I've only flagged 12 comments because I've only seen 12 worth deleting when I saw them. That may have changed

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus I am not sure how many comments we get every day. I wonder if I can use SEDE to look it up...

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Would you have flagged X's comments?

Or have you?

Mitch

@RegDwightАΑA Isn't there an auto-delete? (for more than one flag) (I know, not necessarily relevant here)

Matt Эллен

13:26

@Cerberus I flagged one. I was tempted to flag others

RegDwight АΑA

@Mitch for offensive and spam, yes. Not for other reasons, I think, and most certainly not for custom reasons where people enter their own text.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA I can see posting flags (except specials), but they took away our seeing comment flags several months ago. We used to be able to in order to pile-on, I believe.

Cerberus

I think the site is still changing, and the behaviour of many people too, towards deleting, closing, and such.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist ah, that would match what Kit says.

Mitch

@RegDwightАΑA OK. sounds reasonable.

My reasoning here is that I don't want to be seen as ganging up on X for capricious reasons.

tchrist

13:28

@Cerberus This is the too-many-closed-posts problem?

KitFox

@Mitch I am glad that you feel that way.

Cerberus

@tchrist That problem is part of the larger...development.

RegDwight АΑA

So, um. @JSB I'm not seeing any flags.

Mitch

@KitFox totally we should gang up for reasonable reasons. Can I say that out loud?

JSBձոգչ

@RegDwightАΑA i held off

RegDwight АΑA

13:29

@Mitch yes, as illustrated by both of the two comments of X that got posted here today, he can be coherent.

JSBձոգչ

here, i just gave you one

of course i don't see it myself, since i was the original flagger

RegDwight АΑA

Okay.

I can see it.

Anybody else?

tchrist

Becoming a community of scolds then, holding back instead growing. Well, not that bad. I hope.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightАΑA not in my tools

Mitch

Now that I have that out of my system, why didn't anybody laugh at my 'walk this way' joke? That is quality stuff.

RegDwight АΑA

13:30

Indeed, I only see them in the mod tools, but not in the 10k tools.

tchrist

No, no flags in tools.

RegDwight АΑA

@Mitch I missed that one. Promise to laugh shortly.

Mitch

@RegDwightАΑA nice. you're the best.

RegDwight АΑA

Matt already told me that.

simchona

Was I not supposed to dismiss that?

RegDwight АΑA

13:31

As helpful, hopefully?

Mitch

@RegDwightАΑA and he's the best too. for recognizing that.

tchrist

@Cerberus This is a common phase that growing communities go through. The important thing is what comes next.

KitFox

@Mitch Yes. Reasonable reasons is OK.

Mitch

@tchrist Revolution...obviously.

RegDwight АΑA

Oh damn. We are working on reducing @JSB's flag weight. I am sorry for that.

KitFox

13:32

Just make sure you know which way the gun is pointed before you yell "I see the whites of their eyes!"

Mitch

@KitFox I know that sounds dumb but that's all I had.

@KitFox which way would that be? at their eyes? kind of an obvious target.

KitFox

headdesk

Mitch

stop that. you'll hurt the desk.

Cerberus

@tchrist Exactly. And I don't like it at all.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus yet you wouldn't run for mod!

JSBձոգչ

13:34

@RegDwightАΑA oh, i really don't care about my flag weight. i have over 10K and can do for myself almost everything that i would want to flag.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus actually not that much. We now have 144 3k users. You'd think we'd be getting way more close votes, but the truth is, the number is pretty much the same we had back when we only had ten-odd 3k users.

JSBձոգչ

whoah. i just discovered the new "review low quality posts" page

tchrist

@JSBձոգչ Can't delete comments, or even vote on them towards that end. Our only comment-voting mechanism is flagging.

JSBձոգչ

so i guess i'm going to spend the rest of the day deleting things!

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Precisely for that reason: I would have radically different views from the majority. That wouldn't work. In opposition, one can let one's voice be heard better.

Matt Эллен

13:36

@Cerberus but as 20% of the mod community you could be a guiding hand.

tchrist

@Cerberus Thank you, Congressman Ryan.

@JSBձոգչ You still have delete votes left for today? Slacker!

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA And yet we now have the reputation of being close happy on the SE network. My impression is also that we didn't close nearly as much as in the early days. It is plain to see: many questions Nohat and Kosmo gave interesting answers too back them would be closed now.

@MattЭллен I would have been a dissenting hand. Not fun for anyone.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus no. We always had that reputation. According to you, too.

It's in the transcript.

Cerberus

@tchrist Who is that?

tchrist

@Cerberus Exactly. Someone in the opposition.

Cerberus

13:38

@RegDwightАΑA Always? I never said that.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus not in the short term perhaps, but in the long term you would make a difference, you could shape the site the way you see fit.

tchrist

@Cerberus I’ve been trying to let more things go that I disagree with.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus what I'm saying is that you've been saying "we have a reputation of being close happy" for years.

It's not a recent thing.

JSBձոգչ

@tchrist i used to rarely delete things. but now that they've made it easy for me...

Cerberus

The whole network has that reputation, but we did not have it relative to the rest of the network in the early days.

RegDwight АΑA

13:39

In the early days we had no reputation at all.

We were still building the site. Still are.

Matt Эллен

we didn't have such exposure to pineapples in the early days

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I could not.

tchrist

Because I want other people to say something. I tend to react quickly and harshly, naturally reactive. So of late I have been waiting for other close or delete votes to build up first.

Cerberus

@tchrist Very good.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus that's quitter's talk

tchrist

13:40

Since we can't see comment flags, I cannot do that there.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA We may have had it for a while, but certainly not always.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist see, I've been doing the same, and that's the danger. I ended up having to close stuff unilaterally because everyone including myself had been holding off.

tchrist

@JSBձոգչ It’s easy because of how many delete-worthy things there are.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен That is not my impression.

Pinapply questions were answered politely, adding a more interesting layers of explanation, usually.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus but that's a different problem. And it is a problem. But it's a problem with the answers.

We've been there before: you can turn a stupid gen-ref question into a gem by means of a great answer.

And if people actually do that, it will stick around.

But if people just link to a dictionary definition, that's not helping anyone.

Cerberus

13:43

@MattЭллен Look, I'm not going to be on a board where I disagree with everything. That is insane. I accept that people disagree with me, so take up a laid-back position. I just voice my dissent now and then when poked.

tchrist

I’m not fair. I never vote against Yoichi, even though in another poster, I would do so. I don't know whether this is a bug or a feature. I suspect therefore I must go the other way with some people.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA Sure it is helping someone, the OP; and the answerer, who apparently experienced satisfaction.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist that's an interesting phenomenon, too. However, some of his questions are getting closed. And I even closed one unilaterally a couple weeks ago, as gen-ref.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus you don't disagree with everything - that's a massively huge exaggeration of immense proportions. But as you wish.

Cerberus

I personally prefer a friendly, open site, as long as the site itself isn't harmed by this, which I think is not remotely likely in our case.

@MattЭллен You haven't heard half of my dissent.

Matt Эллен

13:45

@Cerberus but I have heard some of your agreement

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus perhaps I chose the wrong word. Of course it helps them, short term. They get the satisfaction, and that is their prize. But it's not making the Internet a better place. If one year later, the number of views hasn't increased dramatically, there is no point in keeping this stuff around.

Robusto

What, drama? Here? Naw, can't be.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I have disagreed with many basic principle as laid out by Jeff from the beginning. I have disliked the FAQ and the bureaucracy from the beginning, always will. But not everyone has to like everything. So it's fine by me. As I said, I will just give my opinion when provoked.

Robusto

@Cerberus provokes Cerberus

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA I think it is making the internet a better place if asker and answerer get what they want.

RegDwight АΑA

13:47

@tchrist I would actually be more worried about people overreacting and voting to close all his questions out of the fear of not being fair and balanced. Luckily it's not happening. Yet.

JSBձոգչ

whoah. the deletifier just suggested that i delete an answer belonging to @tchrist

giggles

Robusto

Anybody know where I can buy Language by the Log? Pre-split and stacked would be preferable.

Cerberus

That's what the internets are about for me, barring some overarching negative consequences on the long term.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus no, it makes one second in their life a better time. It does not make the Internet, as a whole, a better place, longterm.

Cerberus

@Robusto bites

tchrist

13:48

@Cerberus This is the #1 most negatively anon-feedbacked item, with 18/–33. Is this such an instance, something that would have been previously closed? It looks like the community thinks/thought it should/would be.

Robusto

Ouch!

tchrist

1

Q: Etymology and meaning of "When does the narwhal bacon?"

There's a meme on reddit where the users tend to ask, When does the narwhal bacon? The only correct answer to that question is At midnight. What is the etymology and the meaning of this question?

meaning etymology phrases

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist that generated lots of controversy. In fact, it was kind of the turning point.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA That applies to any tidbit of information and interaction on the nets. It is good.

Robusto

english.stackexchange.com/a/54917/2303

Best answer ever! "It's normally midnight!"

RegDwight АΑA

13:49

@Cerberus I see what you mean. But that's what chat is there for. The site is a permanent resource for grander things.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA So it precipitated a sea change, but was itself grandfathered, like certain locked questions get grandfathered but which are not to be held up as exemplars of on-topic stuff?

Cerberus

@tchrist Eh something that would have been previously closed? On the contrary, it would have been welcomed and praised in the early days.

Or so I would think.

Certainly not massively down-voted.

@RegDwightАΑA The site has never been, is not, and will never be that.

tchrist

@Cerberus Oh right, contrary sense. Would it be closed today, I meant?

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA Most of the questions, nay, 99 %, are not interesting at all from an academic perspective. And that's fine.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus have you looked at the votes on that question? -11.

Cerberus

13:51

@tchrist I have no idea. Lots of arbitrariness involved.

@RegDwightАΑA Yes, and that wouldn't have happened in the early days, I believe.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus It is. It stops being fine when there are no interesting questions at all.

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ: Really, you dredge up some dudgeon from 19 months ago?

This is really a comment, not an answer to the question. Please use "add comment" to leave feedback for the author. — JSBձոգչ 2 mins ago

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA So?

RegDwight АΑA

To paraphrase Joel Spolsky, A-class questions attract A-class questions. B-class questions only attract C-class questions.

@Cerberus so people go away.

When I lose interest, I'm outta here.

Robusto

@RegDwightАΑA Stop stealing my material.

RegDwight АΑA

13:53

@Robusto well you did ask for dramah.

Cerberus

We have never had many "A-class" (God, the pretentiousness) questions. Ever.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus exactly. But we had some.

And the ones that weren't were actually posted by people who should have known better, just to populate the site, and wouldn't post them today.

Robusto

@Cerberus I only ask A-class questions. Ever.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA Don’t you think we get a great deal of F-Class questions "now", like the one that @JSBձոգչ just edited?

2

Q: What is the correct usage?

I am getting confused with usage of 's' with verb- consider following 2 sentences- I am the one who WANTS to stay with you I am the one who WANT to stay with you According to me, first one is the correct usage, because, "the one who" is third person, and hence, the verb will get an ...

verbs verb-agreement

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA That is not my impression.

tchrist

13:55

You may call it C-class if you wish.

But these ESL&U questions do not drive up the quality of the site.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus I know. But I have hard data to go with mine.

@tchrist actually that one's a dupe.

And yes, ELL.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA Like which?

RegDwight АΑA

Like actual numbers. Like my very own questions. Like other mod's questions.

Cerberus

Another question: how is the restrictive, noob-unfriendly approach working so far? Are we at last starting to get fewer uninteresting questions?

RegDwight АΑA

You can't measure that, because you'd have to compare the numbers to a hypothetical situation.

Cerberus

13:58

If so, why is everybody still complaining 24/7 about how stupid all noobs are?

RegDwight АΑA

I think that's an awful overgeneralization.

tchrist

@Cerberus Because they think themselves experts, and want this to be a place for highbrow linguistickers, and . . . No, I don’t know that I believe any of that. Maybe.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA I just think this policy of deterrence doesn't seem to be working, that is my impression.

Robusto

The desire for "only quality questions" and the unstated goal of TPTB to pump up views definitely militate against each other.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus why is that your impression? Do elaborate. How can you tell it's not working?

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…