English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mahnax

00:23

Good evening, everyone.

Vitaly

00:45

@Robusto Never mind. It's been restored.

simchona

01:09

I can imagine who has voted to close. Her/his name becomes with "s" and ends with "a". If I'm wrong, I offer a dinner everyone! — Carlo_R. 4 hours ago

Argh.

Mahnax

@simchona We get free dinner!

simchona

I flagged his comment. I think it's unnecessary and rude.

Mahnax

Fair enough.

simchona

Can't believe he doesn't remember which pronoun to use for me, given he did ask for pictures

Mahnax

Tch. He called me out for voting to close and answering.

I don't usually do that, but I felt like answering. There are no rules against it.

simchona

01:13

You gave a good, diplomatic response

Mahnax

Yeah, I felt that it was fair.

At any rate, he never responded, so that's a nice mission accomplished for me.

simchona

He gets so antsy when his questions are closed, though

Writes a ton of Meta posts, etc.

Mahnax

Yeah. All he does on Meta is get downvoted…

-4

Q: Taking Up The Positions

"Snipers took positions on the roof." "Snipers took up positions on the roof." How are "take positions" and "take up positions" different in this context?

simchona

Flagged already.

Mahnax

Same here.

simchona

01:15

2

Q: Why was this question deleted?

Why was this question on the difference between take positions and take up positions deleted? Because the deletion was done by a mod, raising the issue here is the only way to even have the possibility of re-opening what I think was probably the most interesting question to turn up all day! Sin...

discussion

Personally, while I understand his point, I think NS needs to be nuked

Because leaving his questions open, albeit merged, is like saying "we don't want you here, but we'll keep your questions"

Mahnax

Yeah, exactly.

He needs to go.

simchona

01:33

The grand prix comments were deleted

NOTjust -- user4304

02:53

can anybody tell me why Daniel wouldn't want his intended image to show up after I went through the trouble of 'shooting his code?: english.stackexchange.com/suggested-edits/2847

just based on "too minor".

I think fixing someone's links isn't really minor, espc. if it means an image is showing up, or not.

"edits should be substantive improvements addressing multiple issues in the post." My suggested edit aside, this is one of the language.SE sites, and like the programming.se sites, ONE word, or symbol/punctation mark, can be of paramount importance!

I guess I'm too OCD as a sometimes webmaster I really don't like seeing an 'image fail to load' graphic...

@Vitaly you are as dishonest as a day-trader.

@Vitaly read bio.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:16

@NOTjust--user4304 You're accusing Vitaly of dishonesty? what for?

Cerberus

Hello.

My resistance to Jelly Bean is breaking down.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

tee hee

Cerberus

03:43

But I'm still not entirely there.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Just think, you could have a device that's top of the line! The most up-to-date there is!

So now that you've had an android phone for a few days, do you have a better idea of why people would want a tablet?

Cerberus

04:05

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Actually, no? Should I?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 See, this fata morgana is what lures people into the barren desert without their good, old donkey.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, the tablet is just like the phone, only bigger

So as you start doing things on your phone, you'll wish you could do them bigger, and pine for a tablet

though maybe you won't use your phone as much as I use mine.

Cerberus

04:22

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I do like to use it when I don't really need to sometimes, around the house.

But still. I'm always near my PC.

And nothing beats a 24" screen. Except a bigger screen. Or two.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Soon, though, you'll grow tired of your PC's shackles.

you'll want to be able to pinch to zoom

to fling things around for navigation

etc

Cerberus

I can also do anything much quicker and more efficiently on my PC because of my mouse gestures and accurate mouse pointer.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I already do that all the time, with mouse gestures.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, the tablet isn't really for "work"

Cerberus

Last time I clicked on the "new tab" button, or pressed the hotkey (I wouldn't know what it is) is very long ago.

I always just swipe an N.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you open new tabs a lot?

Cerberus

04:24

Up for copy, down for paste, left for back, right for forward.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, don't you?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus mainly by middle-clicking on links or bookmarks

Or using the search box, which searches in a new tab

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, and, besides the screen, the accuracy, the speed, and the gestures, I also miss my keyboard dearly when I'm on my phone. Nothing comes close to a real keyboard. Even my Windows Mobile keyboard was much, much better than anything I have now on my phone, like Swype, which to me is the best thing I can find.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So you actually have to look up from the screen and move your mouse pointer to the designated area? Eek.

Gestures are so much easier and quicker.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah. typing is a pain.

@Cerberus um... moving the pointer is harder than gesturing with the pointer? besides, I use the mouse for opening links... isn't that what it's for?

Cerberus

Yes, although I must say I am pleasantly surprised with Swype. I had just resigned to a big step in typing when I was preparing myself to say goodbye to my Tytn II.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus swype is pretty cool

I should download it and see if it's improved

Cerberus

04:28

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, it is harder, because 1.) you have to move your mouse to a precies area, stop moving at exactly the right time; and 2.) you have to look at it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

actually I wonder if there's a good T9 input method for android... T9's advantage is that it's harder to mis-press a key

Cerberus

Yes.

I believe there are loads.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But how else do you open a link?

Cerberus

How do you search for a contact, by the way?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus on my phone the contacts app has a search bar at the top

Cerberus

04:31

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sure, I have to point to a link. There's no way around that. But say I want to search for "Skype" that you just typed in Google Images? I double click on it to select, then draw an I shape without looking, anywhere on the screen, and it searches. Even that is more comfortable than right-clicking at the right spot, then looking at the menu, then left clicking on the right option.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And how do you search in that search bar?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus you touch it then start typing

Cerberus

I am saying this because I highly recommend T9 for contacts. Most diallers have this function; if you have a dialler whose 9 number keys are very responsive, it is so much faster than actually typing it with a querty, even faster than a hardware querty.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus if I want to search, I press CTRL-L, TAB, then type a search term, then press enter

user19161

@NOTjust--user4304 Maybe you can ask him yourself. There are all kinds of reasons. Difference in opinions, system errors, etc. Also, don't use OCD lightly. People who really have it suffer like shit.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Okay, and what if you need to search for "Tytn II 3789b silver double mmx"?

I can just select it and draw the I.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:33

@Cerberus That is a rare case for me. I would select it, CTRL-C, CTRL-L, TAB, CTRL-V, enter.

and there's a CTRL-XXX key that takes me to the search box on FF but I don't know it. Muscle-memory for CTRL-L + TAB is enough

And I am proficient on a stock installation of Firefox, unlike you, who would be helpless like a puppy. :)

As for searching for contacts in order to call them, my most frequently used numbers are "favourited" so they're easy to find. The rest don't need to be easy to find. I never call them. I can click the search box and type their name.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Okay, so that's not too bad, but it is a lot of reaching for modifier keys and holding-down-while-pressing. And you need to switch from mouse to keyboard after selection Drawing an I is really much quicker.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, I am only helpless without my mouse-gesture program.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus perhaps. but I switch from mouse to keyboard a lot. It honestly isn't something that slows me down.

Usually there are other limiting factors.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Still, try a T9 dialler. Somehow the idiots who designed ICS made the T9 search for numbers only, but something like ExDialer is very responsive and works well.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sure it slows you down.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, I mean, it doesn't slow me down in any meaningful way.

Cerberus

I think drawing the gesture takes me about 300 ms.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:38

@Cerberus I don't need a T9 dialer. what I want is a T9 text-input system.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You're just not used to mouse gestures. I have used both methods for years, and, believe me, it is a difference.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Try the dialer. Again, I have experience with it, and it is so much better than actually typing a contact.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The Google Pinyin input method lets you type Chinese with a T9 system. It works really well considering how many chinese characters there are, and you have only 9 keys with which to type.

Cerberus

I usually need 3 to 4 digits to have the right name appear in the top 5 in the list.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 See?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, you're missing the point. The point is that invoking the search 500ms faster, or whatever, isn't going to save me any time when it takes seconds for the search results to load, or whatever.

@Cerberus yes but I'm talking about text input. besides my wife, I call people so rarely on my phone that it almost doesn't matter that there is a phone book in it.

Don't get me wrong: I believe you that mouse gestures might be objectively faster. But I don't believe that my typical usage would give me any practical benefits.

considering how much time my hands spend on the keyboards, I can hot-key the browser pretty fast when I need to.

Cerberus

It is more than 500 ms. You need to include the switch from mouse to keyboard too. And that is significant, because you do it so many times a day. In addition to the increased speed, it is the ease: not having to switch, and not having to hold down modifier keys, is a boon. (Just as typing a few keys in succession is easier than control-w, even though it isn't faster.)

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You haven't tried it, and I have. I have noticed the difference.

Switching tabs is another great example.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:42

@Cerberus wrong, I have tried it, and it didn't help.

Cerberus

Not long enough to get used to it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

CTRL-TAB?

I can switch tabs with the keyboard or with the mouse, whichever is convenient. I don't need to move my hands.

Cerberus

I can keep reading what you are saying while I switch tabs, and immediately read the next tab.

Because gestures are completely blind.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so can I: CTRL-TAB, CTRL-SHIFT-TAB

Cerberus

I never need to move my eyes.

Well, anyway, I'll talk to you about this again once you've tried mouse gestures for common tasks for a few weeks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:46

But switching tabs is not something I do a lot in rapid order. Right now I have 8 tabs open. They are mostly unrelated. if I switch tabs it's because I'm switching tasks. I will literally pause what I'm doing to consider what my next task is going to be. So there's lots of time to look at the tabs and decide and click. or CTRL-TAB.

Cerberus

You never check your Gmail quickly while you're chatting with me?

By the way, Dolphin has gestures.

The only thing is that you need to press a button to start a gesture, and it's not extremely quick.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yes, you can be productive with your gesture program. But I am pretty sure that if I installed it and used it every day, there would be no measurable difference in my productivity. I wouldn't get a single extra line of code written or win a single extra argument with an opinionated dog.

Cerberus

I am still on the fence about shaking. Do you use that? I shake to the left or right to switch tabs in Dolphin.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And I think you will. And I have experience in this.

But no matter.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I have never tried shaking the phone. Also I don't use dolphin.

Mahnax

Good evening.

Cerberus

04:48

Why not?

Hello!

Mahnax

Oh, @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇, I gave in and bought a mouse.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Sometimes I am multi-tasking and sometimes not. But even then, I either have my hand on the mouse, in which case I don't think zipping the mouse up to the tab bar to pick a particular tab that needs attention takes so much time that gesturing would be a big win

What if I need to switch to a tab that's 8 tabs away from my current one?

Cerberus

@Mahnax Wait, you didn't have a mouse?

Mahnax

@Cerberus Nah, I used my trackpad.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus because I don't expect shaking to be a thing. And I use the stock browser, it works fine, what benefit does a third-party browser offer?

Cerberus

04:50

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And I disagree with your there; and, don't forget, it's speed + ease. The ease may even be more important.

Mahnax

A combination of trackpad and keyboard works very well for me, and is still faster than the mouse.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sure, there it fails.

And that's why I dislike switching far-away tabs: it is much less comfortable.

I even installed an addon that lets me switch to last-used tab with a hotkey (which I have linked to a gesture) for that.

@Mahnax Oh, dear...well, congratulations on your rodent!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I AM at ease. my left hand is almost always on the keyboard and it can reach many, many shortcut keys all by itself. So I can CTRL-TAB and leave my right hand on the mouse. easy, fast. works everywhere.

@Cerberus That could be useful.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Nah, it worked well.

What is the issue with trackpads?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

See, THAT would be a big win for me. If the CTRL-TAB order worked something like the ALT-TAB order, so that recently-used things were nearby in the list.

Cerberus

04:52

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Disagree.

@Mahnax Why did you buy a mouse?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, I'm happy that you've found your gesture thingy and you're happy with it. But I promise you that I'm pretty fast and completely at ease on the keyboard.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I was thinking of searching for an add-on that could do that, but never got around to it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Again, we'll talk once you have seriously tried mouse gestures.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus maybe we should talk once you learn to use your keyboard

Cerberus

The point is not to replace the keyboard, of course; you only replace it when you're using then mouse anyway—*then*'s when the speed and ease kick in. When I'm typing already, I use control-c, of course.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Gaming.

Cerberus

04:55

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How should I use it that I'm not using it now? What do you know of my keyboard use?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Probably as much as you know of my mouse use and gesture use.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Oh...why do you need it for gaming? You can aim with a track pad?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know you don't regularly use mouse gestures. I use keyboard hotkeys all the time, when I'm using the keyboard anyway, like now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

My point is, when I'm working, I'm typing. Mouse gestures just aren't worthwhile. When I'm not working, I don't need speed, and I am completely at ease with a mouse + keyboard. I've only been using them together since 1992...

Mahnax

@Cerberus It's a lot easier with a mouse.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You never "need" anything, but you can profit from more speed and ease. But let's change the subject.

@Mahnax Ah OK. But not so outside gaming?

Mahnax

04:58

@Cerberus Yeah.

Cerberus

Isn't it quicker to point and click at a small button on a website with the mouse?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Let's say I made an invention that let you put on your clothes 500% faster. Would that be useful to you? It wouldn't to me. I only get dressed once a day. So at the end of the day I've barely saved any time at all. But for a quick-change artist, it could be a big deal.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Not for me. I'm pretty quick with the trackpad.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, that would be awesome. It's not for nothing that people on Lifehacker get enthusiastic about the trick of putting one's underpants in one's pants before putting them on, in order to avoid the usually wrinkling and tugging, if you will forgive me such an indelicate subject.

@Mahnax Haha, you should record it sometime, you v. yourself, trackpad v. mouse.

For the record, I don't do the trick above.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus rolls eyes It IS for nothing. There is nothing to be gained from it.

Cerberus

05:02

There is: speed and ease.

IF it is truly easier and faster, of course.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

imperceptible speed. debatable ease.

Cerberus

I am aware of the fact that many tricks seem alluring, but turn out to be not worth it in the end.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Again, experience will pass the final judgement for you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

i'm not trying to convince you to stop using your gesture program. I'm just trying to convince you that not everyone's computer usage would be measurably improved by mouse gestures.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Perhaps.

Cerberus

And I think many people's experience would, people who don't use gestures and likely never will.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:04

sure. But I am not arguing from an uninformed position here.

Cerberus

Because you only know how much it helps you after enough exposure.

You said you never used gestures for long?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I think I have a pretty good understanding of the costs and benefits of making customizations to a computer so that it's subtly easier to use after retraining. And it has been my experience that since I typically work on several systems, sometimes lots of systems, not all of which can have those customizations, I can't rely on them and fall back to the most widely-available functionality.

Cerberus

If you have a USB key, you can have your gestures with you everywhere.

To me, not using gestures is like not using hotkeys.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And yes, there have been times when I wished I had more automation in my computer for a particular task because I was doing something repetitive. But if it's repetitive enough that I have to do it on more than a few occasions, I will automate it.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Excellent. Many people wouldn't, and they would doubt the benefit of it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:08

@Cerberus No, not all my systems are Windows and not all the systems I work on have USB where I could insert a key. Some are virtual, eg.

@Cerberus You do know that I'm a programmer, right? my work computer is FULL of little automations.

Cerberus

Well, I'm sure there are ways to install the main gesture program on those Windows VMs. As for non-Windows, then you will have to be less efficient there. Don't think that using gestures means you don't get to use hotkeys: I use hotkeys a lot too.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, very good. What's a favourite one that you could recommend?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, I'm sure I don't have permission to install gesture programs on production servers.

Cerberus

Use a portable version.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's all customized stuff.

Cerberus

A favourite action that you like to automate?

Or are they all code-specific or program-specific?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:12

@Cerberus building the source code and deploying it; we have an automated build but there are lots of knobs on it; I automated some of those knobs for my local work. connecting to all the production machines and executing scripts on all of them simultaneously. things like that.

Cerberus

Ah yes, good.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Often I automate things for one-off tasks, using a shell script or batch file.

Cerberus

So do you remember that you had this line of code that was mostly a fixed formula, but had some variable terms in it?

And you wanted a way to type it quickly, typing just the variable terms, filling in the rest automatically?

That's my favourite kind of thing to automate.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The point is that I know how automation can help. And I realize that if you spend a lot of time searching for stuff then a hotkey or gesture for searching would help. But I don't do that. My browser use is very vanilla, except when it's debugging, and then it's rarely repetitive.

Cerberus

Have you automated it yet?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:14

@Cerberus I don't remember

Cerberus

Oh.

> List<Map<Integer,Pair<Integer,String>>> list = new ArrayList<Map<Integer,Pair<Integer,String>>>();

Have you automated this yet?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No

Cerberus

I like automating this stuff.

So, if you're in the mood and can specify exactly what it should do, I can write an Autohotkey script to do it, yay!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The reason I haven't automated it is that in practice that's a pathological example. Most of the real examples are much easier and I haven't had time to find a way to automate that. Plus if we ever update to Java 7 we'll be able to just say List<> list = new ArrayList<Map<Integer,Pair<Integer,String>>>();

or maybe it's List<ArrayList<Map<Integer,Pair<Integer,String>>> = new ArrayList<>();

Cerberus

Still it is fun for me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:19

I forget, anyway, they elimiated half the syntax

Cerberus

All right.

If you ever have another line with variables that you'd like automated, poke me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I could probably spend a few hours trying to figure out how to automate it, or else just CTRL-LEFT_ARROW a few times, SHIFT-CTRL-END, CTRL-C, CTRL-V, etc

Cerberus

But I could do it because I like doing it, and you'd have to spend 0 hours!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But it would require installing that dodgy AHK program.... :p

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Bleh it ain't dodgy!

It's fine on Win 7. Although not all old scripts may work. But a new script on 7, sure.

By the way, there seems to be a bug in the latest Swiftkey version.

It freezes/crashes when I try to change the language.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

05:31

swiftkey?

Cerberus

Or what is it called? The Android keyboard? I thought you were using it?

All so confusing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I use the stock Android keyboard, and the Google Pinyin android keyboard

did you mean Swype?

holy crap it's 1:30am, why didn't anyone tell me?

I have to go to bed! It's morning soon!

bye

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, I see. No, I mean Swiftkey, another popular keyboard. It can't swipe though, and I like Swype better. Still trying various keyboards.

Bye!

David Wallace

06:19

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, it's the latter.

Matt Эллен

07:58

Yesss!

That was more difficult than it seems

Former_Math_Addict

@MattЭллен Your answer to my question was "fanatical" :-D

Matt Эллен

Thanks! I don't get your question.

Former_Math_Addict

@MattЭллен I'm asking how "if" alone can mean biconditional?

Matt Эллен

@Former_Math_Addict but the examples you give explain that

Former_Math_Addict

@MattЭллен I don't understand the example.

Matt Эллен

08:11

@Former_Math_Addict OK. What don't you understand?

the example says that "if and only if" is an example of biconditional if and "I will buy you a wallet if you need one" is also an example.

what are you finding confusing about those statements?

@Former_Math_Addict is it the word biconditional that you don't understand?

Former_Math_Addict

@MattЭллен I'm OK with the word "biconditional."

I don't understand how the reader is to know the "speaker doesn't intend a valid outcome to be buying the wallet whether or not the wallet is needed (as in a conditional)

Matt Эллен

I see

Former_Math_Addict

especially how this amounts to "(as in a conditional)"

Matt Эллен

OK, I'll let someone answer. But essentially biconditional goes both ways, whereas conditional doesn't have to

Former_Math_Addict

@MattЭллен So, a biconditional must go both ways, while a conditional may or may not go both ways?

Matt Эллен

08:24

@Former_Math_Addict that's what I get from the wikipedia entry, yeah

Former_Math_Addict

@MattЭллен Thanks :-)

Matt Эллен

@Former_Math_Addict no probs :)

Former_Math_Addict

@MattЭллен I think I just need another clearer example.

David Wallace

I will wear a coat if it rains.

Matt Эллен

No worries. Someone will provide one :)

David Wallace

08:26

Someone just did.

Matt Эллен

but if you wear a coat it won't necessarily rain

so that is plain conditional

David Wallace

My sentence means that I will only wear a coat if it's already raining.

Matt Эллен

oh, ok

David Wallace

So it's bi.

Would you interpret it to mean that there's a possibility that I would wear a coat, even though it's not raining?

Matt Эллен

only colloquially. Because I know people wear coats for other reasons

Former_Math_Addict

08:30

And do you know it is raining before you put on the coat?

David Wallace

@MattЭллен Yes, but take this as an example. I'm leaving in the morning, and my mother says to me - it's cold, so you should wear a coat. I say - I will wear a coat if it rains. That kind of means, I'm not going to wear a coat, because it's not raining.

Matt Эллен

Yes, but I didn't have that context before.

David Wallace

OK, in what context might I say "I will wear a coat if it rains", without it being biconditional?

Matt Эллен

Most of the time?

David Wallace

I suppose I could say "I will wear a coat if it rains, or if it snows".

Matt Эллен

08:31

I wear a coat if it rains

David Wallace

How most of the time?

Former_Math_Addict

If it is cloudy outside and you don't know if it will rain or not.

Matt Эллен

Apart from the fact that you don't mean "I will wear a coat if it rains"

because that is absurd

it's always raining somewhere

David Wallace

@Former_Math_Addict No, I strongly disagree.

Matt Эллен

so you need more context anyway

David Wallace

08:34

No. Without more context, "I will wear a coat if it rains" clearly means "it's not raining now, so I won't wear a coat".

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace but it doesn't mean "I won't wear a coat if it doesn't rain"

weather is a bad example, I feel. "I will give you £100 if you win the race" is clearly biconditional

David Wallace

@RegDwightАΑA Maybe it's been to ELL and back already. Does it have the ashes to prove it?

@MattЭллен Yes it does.

Matt Эллен

because you might wear a coat if it is cold, but not raining

David Wallace

@MattЭллен OK, yes, that's a really good example.

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace not without more context it doesn't

David Wallace

08:36

Without more context, it certainly DOES.

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace DOESN'T ftfy

RegDwight АΑA

3

Q: What is the correct way to say my age?

What's the difference between: I have 27 years old and I am 27 years old

adjectives

Four upvotes!

David Wallace

@MattЭллен What did you fix? Or do you mean "fuck this fuck you"?

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace Say you say "I will wear a coat if it rains", it doesn't rain and you wear a coat anyway. Clearly either you are a liar or the statement was not biconditional.

RegDwight АΑA

We have four people with 15+ reps who think this question shows research effort, is useful and clear.

Matt Эллен

08:38

@DavidWallace fixed that for you :D

David Wallace

@MattЭллен If that occurs, I'm a liar.

@MattЭллен Yes, but I asked - what did you fix?

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace your being wrong

David Wallace

@MattЭллен Sorry, didn't happen.

Matt Эллен

You are still wrong now!

so I guess you're right about that

David Wallace

@RegDwightАΑA It's not hard to get 15+ reps.

And 4 out of 7 billion is not a huge percentage.

RegDwight АΑA

08:41

@DavidWallace it is for the kind of people who would upvote a question about whether "I have 27 years old" is correct.

What, exactly, would they get the reps for?

David Wallace

For upvoting each other's stupid questions? Duh!

RegDwight АΑA

Exactly.

This site's been overtaken by a voting ring of pineapples.

David Wallace

A pineapple ring? Hahaha!

You do realise that if they all head off to ELL, the minority left here will have nothing to do?

Matt Эллен

we can... stroke each others egos?

RegDwight АΑA

The minority here already has nothing to do. At least certainly not upvoting dumb questions.

David Wallace

08:44

Jul 15 at 7:54, by Cerberus

Playing with mah thing.

Matt Эллен

:D

RegDwight АΑA

yesterday, by JSBձոգչ

yay for my thing!

What's this obsession with things as of late?

You're all too materialistic.

Matt Эллен

My thing isn't working :(

David Wallace

In other words, if ELL gets created, ELU will just die.

RegDwight АΑA

If that starts to happen we can always inject ELL right back.

Matt Эллен

08:45

@DavidWallace no, we will just have a sudden drop off in questions. It will resuscitate over time

David Wallace

@MattЭллен I call bullshit.

Matt Эллен

I have faith

I'm sure I'll find a lot of questions to ask when the pineapples stop interrupting my train of thought

David Wallace

I shan't ask any questions at all, if the pineapples all leave.

Matt Эллен

Will you go to ELL, though?

RegDwight АΑA

@DavidWallace hahahaha.

@MattЭллен (he hasn't asked a single question yet)

Matt Эллен

08:47

:D

David Wallace

@MattЭллен If 'ELL exists, I shall surely go there.

Matt Эллен

Well, that's good news of a sort

RegDwight АΑA

Yeah.

That site needs experts, too.

David Wallace

@MattЭллен Actually, I was thinking of hell. I'm not so sure about ELL.

Matt Эллен

oh, oh well

David Wallace

08:49

I just saved myself with an apostrophe.

RegDwight АΑA

We are not shipping off all the pineapples. We are creating an actual functioning site in the spirit of GLU, JLU, SLU, etc, just for English.

Because a) such a site does not exist yet and b) the demand is huge.

David Wallace

The demand for ELL is huge. I'm not so sure about ELU.

RegDwight АΑA

Of course.

But that's by design.

David Wallace

My son just asked me whether penguins live in igloos.

RegDwight АΑA

The demand for MathOverflow is way smaller than that for a site where you can ask how much 23*54165 is.

David Wallace

08:51

@RegDwightАΑA Which is why ELU will vanish in a puff of smoke if ELL gets created. So long as we've got one site that caters to both groups, the serious enthusiasts can continue to commune in the existing community.

RegDwight АΑA

But we do not cater to both groups.

Currently we close and delete a ton of questions.

They all could live.

David Wallace

We don't INTEND to cater to both groups. But unintentionally, we do so.

RegDwight АΑA

Do elaborate.

David Wallace

We cater for the GR pineapples by answering their questions. They don't care whether the questions stick around for posterity.

RegDwight АΑA

How has this site been useful to Nortonn and the like?

David Wallace

08:52

In fact, they're probably delighted to have their embarrassing contributions closed and deleted.

Nortonn is a special case.

RegDwight АΑA

@DavidWallace you might be surprised how few of those questions are actually answered.

David Wallace

Look how Carlo has grown.

RegDwight АΑA

Exactly.

David Wallace

But you want to banish all future Carlos to their own little private playpen!

@RegDwightАΑA Whether such a question gets answered really depends on whether a moderator sees it first.

RegDwight АΑA

I don't banish anyone. Everyone is free to register on both sites.

David Wallace

08:55

But you want to banish the questions, which amounts to the same thing.

RegDwight АΑA

I don't think that's the same thing.

Stack Overflow has been split up into 10+ sites.

All of them work.

David Wallace

OK, you wish to banish the questions from all future Carlos to their own private playpen. Better?

RegDwight АΑA

I do not want to banish anything.

I simply proposed a site, which anyone can do, and now it either gets enough support or it doesn't. Is all.

David Wallace

@RegDwightАΑA Do they? Have you seen what percentage of questions on programmers.SE get closed? Nobody knows what the damned site is for!

Matt Эллен

true

RegDwight АΑA

08:57

@DavidWallace perhaps it's time for them to split as well.

Matt Эллен

it is chimeric

David Wallace

@RegDwightАΑA How will that help?

RegDwight АΑA

I am not saying it will.

Hence the "perhaps".

David Wallace

@RegDwightАΑA Well, it gets a negative amount of support from my little corner of the world.

Matt Эллен

It has been split to some degree. there is a workplace SE beta now

RegDwight АΑA

08:58

@DavidWallace you just said you would go and be active there.

David Wallace

I lied. I was punning on ELL = Hell.

That is, if Hell exists, I shall surely go there. ELL, I'm less sure about.

RegDwight АΑA

We can turn ELL into hell, if you insist.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…