English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

It's just a browser addon that lets you do things like capture the whole browser document even the part that's not in the visible window. Things like that.

Cerberus

Now top that.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

So okay, I see an edit by Martha and three reopen votes, but I am still on the fence myself.

0

Q: In a sequence of words where the "ends" are opposites, what do you call the middle word?

For example, in the sequence late - on time - early, early is the antonym of late, and delayed would be a synonym. But what about on time, the "neutral" word in the sequence? What is the relationship of on time and early? Is there a word for this?

single-word-requests

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, yes, that can be handy.

Mahnax

Hahaha.....

RegDwight Ѭſ道

7:36 PM

I left a comment.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that's pretty useful - I've often wanted that

Cerberus

Zizorz can't do that.

Mahnax

Nope.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Feel free to sell the question to me.

Cerberus

But it can make a screenshot and post it online so fast that no lines appear in between my own line and the screenshot, muwahhaha.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Okay lemme see.

Mahnax

7:37 PM

I'm off.

Bye!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus did you auto-h-k that or something?

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 I voted to re-open it. Seems like a question now.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Just Zizorz.

Which is of course coded in AHK, but not by me.

Kitḫ

Only not ironically.

Matt Эллен

:D

Cerberus

7:38 PM

@Kitḫ Haha yay!

Candy!!

Kitḫ

And puppies too, I bet.

Cerberus

But, you know, why don't we just let her stay in the van?

Kitḫ

Uh oh. Dangerous territory. Where did I put the chocolate?

Cerberus

I'm sure Candy can take care of herself.

No need to free her.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So does zizorz just save the screenshot to your desktop? What are you doing to upload it?

Matt Эллен

7:39 PM

is this:

a dupe of this:

2

Q: Verb form of To Blacken vs to Brown

It just sounds right but why is Brown it's own verb when "To make Black" turns into Blacken? I assume it's something to do with the -n ending of Brown?

verbs

6

Q: Verbed color names and "-en"

"whitened", "blackened", and "reddened"; but "yellowed", "grayed", and "blued". Is there some rule or is it just one of those things? "Greened" makes sense; no one is going to say "greenened". "Pinked" or "pinkened"? "Purpled" or "empurpled"? First person to not make an Arrested Development ...

verbs adjectives morphology

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Kitḫ

Agh!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kitḫ I still can't make heads or tails of it. I have a terrible feeling he is actually looking for hypernym, but asking it in an extremely confusing way that won't get him any answer.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I press win-Q to activate Zizorz. I shif-draw a rectangle around the area I want, and it automatically saves the screenshot to my disk, posts in on Imageshack, and puts the link on my clipboard.

I can also alt-drag to just put the image on my clipboard, or control-drag to just save it.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I mean, the sequence is not defined by on time. It is defined by its relation to the other words, which are its antonyms.

Kitḫ

7:41 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 I don't think so. It's not a hypernym.

@RegDwightѬſ道 No, I disagree.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 What are you using here?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus wow it automatically uploads your screenshots to the internet!?! Yikes, you can keep it then!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Read carefully. I am not saying it is a hypernym. I am saying he is actually looking for hypernym but doesn't know how to ask.

Kitḫ

Look at it on a timeline. Early----X----Late.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yes. So?

Cerberus

7:42 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 I suspect he is asking for a tertium comparationis, but I agree the question is a bit vague, not very well worded.

Kitḫ

Early-late are antonyms.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

X is a synonym of itself.

Kitḫ

What is X?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Only with shift-drag. Read.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

X is antonym of both early and late.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:43 PM

@Cerberus Firshot... I click the browser button, drag to select, click to save, confirm the filename, then upload it using the regular elu chat api.

Kitḫ

No, it's not.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Of course it is. Come on.

Kitḫ

"on time" is not the antonym of late.

Matt Эллен

@Kitḫ jinx

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Sure it is.

Cerberus

7:44 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 OK. Many more clicks and key presses there.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightѬſ道 I don't see how

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It's just a different degree of antonymity, is all.

Kitḫ

Neutral is not the antonym of chaotic.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's possible that it needs configuration or something to set up some default behaviour.

Matt Эллен

dogs are not the antonym of early

Cerberus

7:45 PM

The thing is, what an antonym is is determined by the tertium comparationis: a word doesn't have an antonym natively, but only based on context.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Both okay and awesome are antonyms of awful.

Depending on context.

Similarly, if I am on time, that means I'm not late.

Antonyms.

I am also not early.

Antonyms.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 In any case, Zizorz has the absolute minimum number of clicks, so I doubt whether it could ever be topped. And it is also very quick to respond and post and upload.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightѬſ道 no, antonyms are opposities. on time is not opposite early

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 I disagree.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 I don't think I agree there, not in most contexts. Awful is very bad, so you need a word that means very good, or you don't have the "very" part.

Matt Эллен

7:47 PM

it's not opposite of late either

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 This is possible, depending on context.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Okay let's take another example.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That's nice, if uploading to imageshack is a useful feature for you, and caputring the entire browser document is not.

Kitḫ

@MattЭллен And I think you could say that they should be approximately the same degree of intensity as well. Fine is not the opposite of catastrophic.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Man is an antonym of woman.

Man is also an antonym of animal.

So what is man?

Kitḫ

7:48 PM

headdesk

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightѬſ道 I often disagree with that

Kitḫ

No man is a continuum entire of himself.

Matt Эллен

in terms of electrical sockets, female is the opposite of male.

Kitḫ

Female complements male.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No, both are really nice features. But they don't have to come in the same program. I have considered using an add-on that does just that, screenshotting the whole page. Perhaps it was even the same add-on.

@RegDwightѬſ道 I agree: it depends on context.

Kitḫ

7:49 PM

OK, my peoples. I am going to make like a baby and head out.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus But that's all I'm saying all along.

Cerberus

You cannot truly have antonyms without (implied) context.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Holy shit I'm going to have to agree with Cerberus (and Reg too, I guess)

Matt Эллен

cya @kit :)

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Oh have fun!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

7:50 PM

It just so happens that this chain of words was constructed such that it has three links. What if we add a fourth? What if there is no middle?

It becomes immediately obvious how pointless the question is.

Kitḫ

Thanks. I have my chocolate. I should be fine. I may see you later. If not, Monday!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Have fun!

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 OK I have never disagreed with you! But, if you don't give explicit context, people may disagree on implicit context.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

So your comment about "really bad" vs "really good" is spot on, actually.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 Maybe you should explain WHY those words are still considered antonyms and then say that there is no word for the midpoint (other than "midpoint") and that it's meaningless without context. When a question is wrong sometimes the right answer is an explanation of the wrongness.

@Cerberus yeah we're all in agreement here except Matt and Kit

RegDwight Ѭſ道

7:52 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Sure. And that's the only answer I would normally expect. But you know as well as I do that what we'll start getting instead will be coinages.

Matt Эллен

being late is having taken too much time. being early is having taken too little time. being on time is not having taken too much or too little time. an absense is not an opposite

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Agreed.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

"I don't think there's a word for it, but I suggest boglsaph!"

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's basically all of us, then. Long live the tyranny of the majority!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MattЭллен That I've been saying all along, too.

Obviously on time is a synonym of itself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:53 PM

@MattЭллен There is no definite end to the scale where the antonyms lie.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 good?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен good what?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Which is precisely why I think he might be looking for a category for the sequence. Hence, hypernym.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't understand what your point is

RegDwight Ѭſ道

A "neutral" word that describes what kind of chain it is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:55 PM

@MattЭллен You seem to be saying that the antonym has to lie at the same distance from the midpoint. But the ends (and hence the midpoint) of the scale are completely dependent on context. Hence, "neutral" CAN be the "opposite" of "chaotic".

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 no I'm saying that an opposite is not an absence. equi-distance is not important

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MattЭллен but you can't really ask about absence of something, can you?

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightѬſ道 I did once, but that got migrated to Philosophy :)

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Ding! We have a winner.

Maybe that's what I should do, too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен absent is the opposite of present. QED.

Matt Эллен

7:58 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Jasper! Oh, my bad. Is it though? So truth is the absence of lies?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Whatever it is, truth certainly is an antonym of lie.

Cerberus

Oh, no...

Matt Эллен

Well, in the case where the presence of something it the opposite of its absence, then on time must be the opposite of both early and late. And rocks must be the opposite of life

something happened...

RegDwight Ѭſ道

A typo got fixed.

Matt Эллен

ta

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:03 PM

@MattЭллен Truth is not necessarily the absence of lies... why should it be?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well honies, we'll see what kind of rubbish answers this will get us. In the mean time, wife insists on wanting to be entertained and accepts no excuses.

So catch y'all laters.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I believe in an absolute truth. that's why. or I did when I was arguing about that

see you @RegDwight :)

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MattЭллен on the scale between lie and truth, what is truthiness? And how about truism?

Have fun defining! Over and out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен I don't know what we're talking about anymore.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 don't worry, it's not important :)

9

Q: Is the truth a privative?

A privative is the absence of something, and as such doesn't exist. So cold is a privative, as it is merely the absence of heat. This question is inspired by this answer about a single noun for an honest person. It seems to me that the truth is merely the absence of all lies, and as such can be...

ontology linguistics

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:06 PM

I still think that while the most natural opposite for "early" is "late", "on time" is certainly another opposite depending on the context.

@MattЭллен What if you create a work of fiction? technically, it's lies. Take them all away and you don't have any truth left.

Cerberus

@Kit: Wow, that video is great. I recognized more than half of the songs. And they have good taste: I actually liked most of them in one way or another (even though some may not be socially acceptable).

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 so the emptiness is the truth. the truth is a privative

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен What if I create a lie by removing a truth?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I quite liked trying to recognise them all. a good trip along memory lane

@MrShinyandNew安宇 how can you remove truth?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Wow, did you recognize nearly all?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:12 PM

@MattЭллен Truth: Matt is not not a programmer.

Then remove a word "not"

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus over half, for sure

Cerberus

Hey @Matt, how would you define a privative?

To me it is a linguistic term.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus the absence of something, as in the thermodynamic definition of cold - the absence of heat

Cerberus

The absence of anything?

Matt Эллен

well, the absence of something that creates a concept, like cold

Cerberus

8:14 PM

Hmm "something that creates a concept"...

What is that exactly?

Matt Эллен

people say they feel cold - the absence of heat has created the concept of cold

Cerberus

Hmm...

Then what counts as a concept?

If I say "13", is 13 a concept?

Matt Эллен

people think they are poor, the absence of money created the concept of poor

@Cerberus yeah, any idea :)

Cerberus

And is the number "-13" a concept?

Matt Эллен

yes

Cerberus

8:16 PM

And "not 13"?

Matt Эллен

sure

Cerberus

And how about the idea that Mary didn't go ice skating that I have based on your telling me "Mary went to the library"?

Matt Эллен

yes

Cerberus

That is very broad.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It's an interesting argument. I'm not sure what I think about it

hi @Kit! welcome back :)

Cerberus

8:19 PM

Hi!

Kitḫ

Good lord. I'm so modern.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен yeah me neither.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I suppose. to me idea and concept are synonymous

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think it all depends too much on what you mean by "truth" and "lies"

Kitḫ

I thought of something about the Antonym question.

Matt Эллен

8:20 PM

true :D

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmm they are close anyway. Perhaps a concept is a bit more specified, explicit.

Kitḫ

It's just a red herring.

Oh wait. You've moved on.

Matt Эллен

it's never to late! we've still got time

Cerberus

Yeah!

Kitḫ

The examples are on a continuum, and measured from some relative baseline.

Cerberus

8:22 PM

@Matt: I somehow do not feel happy about your privative question.

But I don't know how to formulate why not.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus what about it? I said I would edit it months ago!

oh

Cerberus

Haha.

Matt Эллен

I haven't got around to making it make more sense

Kitḫ

So how do you describe the relationship between the measure (early) and the referrent (time you were supposed to be there).

Cerberus

@MattЭллен How about this. I can stick "not" before anything to create a new concept, right?

Matt Эллен

8:23 PM

> @stoicfury: I will think on that - it's been a while since I asked - and I'll update the question later. – Matt Ellen Nov 1 '11 at 13:12

@Cerberus yes

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Then I can also stick "not not" before anything.

Matt Эллен

aye

Kitḫ

Ach. Mobile sucks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, it doesn't create a new concept if you already have that concept

Cerberus

And so every single thing or concept can be a privative.

Matt Эллен

8:25 PM

not really

not is not the same as absense

is it?

Kitḫ

Remind me to tell you the elephant joke later.

Bail.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен No? Then what is the difference?

Matt Эллен

cya @kit

Kitḫ

*bai

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Then the question is, does it count as a new concept? And why (not)?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:26 PM

@Kitḫ damn you autocorrect!

Cerberus

Bailing out on us, huh?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well not-not == (nothing) so logically it's just a new spelling for an old concept

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus hmmm. can I call a snow-check? I have to walk a mile to the shop, buy some dinner and come back. hopefully I'll come up with something on the walk :)

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Why can't "I am happy" and "I am not not happy" be two different concepts?

@MattЭллен Hahaha snow is the best excuse! Good luck navigating the peaks and precipices!

Most of the snow has disappeared here, by the way.

Trodden flat and evaporated, or something.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus hmm......

In this case, because negating things like "happy" doesn't work that way, I suppose.

Cerberus

8:29 PM

Doesn't work what way?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

wait... "I am not not happy" does mean "I am happy"...

Cerberus

In a way, yes.

MetaEd

@Kitḫ I'd go for a Pinot Noir, or Montepulciano.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus In what way wouldn't it be?

Cerberus

Pragmatically.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:32 PM

@Cerberus explain

Cerberus

You are not expressing the same intention.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I am

not happy is not the same as unhappy

Cerberus

If you say "I am not not happy", it is implied that someone else denied that you were happy, and you wish to rectify this.

For example.

It could mean something different but similar.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus only because people don't add in words they don't need like that.

Cerberus

Huh?

MetaEd

8:35 PM

Or it could be that you know your previous words could be misinterpreted as meaning that you are not happy, and you are making a pre-emptive strike to clarify.

Cerberus

@MetaEd Exactly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You could clarify by simply stating "I am happy". You haven't created a new concept. There's lots of ways to talk about a concept.

MetaEd

It's as much rhetorical as anything. It's pretty to common to run into a sentence which begins "Not that I'm not …"

Not that I'm not complaining about not not.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MetaEd My point is that it doesn't introduce a new concept the way "happy" and "not happy" are new concepts.

happy and not not happy are the same.

Why you'd label the concept one way or another depends on what you're trying to say. But calling it "red" or "blood-coloured" doesn't introduce a new concept.

MetaEd

It is true for all that that that not not that that refers to is not the same not not that that not not refers to.

Cerberus

8:47 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I think the term concept is part of the problem: it is either too vague or too broad in our problem.

BRB groceries.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I think that depends on what you mean by "problem".

Cerberus

Another classical problem: are "the morning star" and "the evening star" two concepts or one?

BRB

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

whee! production database changes on a friday afternoon before everyone goes home for the weekend!

MetaEd

Concepts are fuzzy.

I like what Bertie Russell had to say about them.

Theory of descriptions

The theory of descriptions is the philosopher Bertrand Russell's most significant contribution to the philosophy of language. It is also known as Russell's Theory of Descriptions (commonly abbreviated as RTD). In short, Russell argued that the syntactic form of descriptions (phrases that took the form of "The aardvark" and "An aardvark") is misleading, as it does not correlate their logical and/or semantic architecture. While descriptions may seem fairly uncontroversial phrases, Russell argued that providing a satisfactory analysis of the linguistic and logical properties of a description ...

Did you get your "star" problem from Russell? It's mentioned in this article!

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…