English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@cornbreadninja You could go to management, tell them you are on the verge of a burn-out (exaggerate if needed), and tell them what you need to change for you to stay.

If they can't do it, you quit.

@tchrist Of course it is pejorative, d'oh.

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus it's too late baby, now it's too late / though we really did try to make it

Cerberus

Otherwise it wouldn't be funny or adroit.

cornbread ninja

See . . .

Cerberus

4:24 AM

Okay, if you're really sure, and you have no reason to stay any longer, then quit ASAP.

cornbread ninja

after they bought us, they sort of put down this our-way-or-the-highway mandate and laid off dissenters, including my former boss and his boss.

Cerberus

That sucks.

Take-overs are usually bad news.

cornbread ninja

I've compared it to working for teenaged bullies you can't do anything about.

Cerberus

Bleh.

cornbread ninja

There as reasonable as teenaged bullies.

Cerberus

4:25 AM

Haha.

David Wallace

@cornbreadninja I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm sure you don't deserve to be unhappy.

Cerberus

Then quit.

What does your boyfriend say?

cornbread ninja

@DavidWallace that means a lot, man, thank you.

@Cerberus he is quite supportive and wishes for nothing more than my happiness.

Cerberus

And does he agree that you should quit?

cornbread ninja

I even recently found my mother to be supportive.

@Cerberus yes.

Cerberus

4:26 AM

What's keeping you? There must be something that has prevented you from quitting so far.

@cornbreadninja Hmm is that new?

@cornbreadninja Then I'm with him.

David Wallace

Will you find something else easily?

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus kidding myself that I can still do it until retirement or whatever.

@Cerberus also that I don't have my programming degree yet.

Cerberus

That doesn't sound like much of a reason.

@cornbreadninja Oh...

When will you have this degree?

cornbread ninja

@DavidWallace I hope so, but it won't be anything like it. I'd like to be a secretary or something, but some pair of part-time jobs might do.

David Wallace

@cornbreadninja But just until you finish your degree, right?

cornbread ninja

4:29 AM

I'd like to be a copy writer.

@DavidWallace I suppose.

Or just press releases, whatever.

I've written those.

I always wanted to work in a library.

David Wallace

So you have a few options. That is good.

cornbread ninja

I don't care about titles. I just want to be able to support myself.

David Wallace

How far off finishing your programming degree are you?

cornbread ninja

And hopefully keep feeding my 401(k).

@DavidWallace erm, about 7 classes.

David Wallace

So, that would be about a year, if you did it full time?

cornbread ninja

4:33 AM

@DavidWallace several are prerequisites for the others, so, maybe.

I'm taking two in spring.

David Wallace

So, may I ask you a personal question?

cornbread ninja

perhaps

David Wallace

Why are you doing a programming degree if you've always wanted to work in a library?

cornbread ninja

@DavidWallace I'm not sure it's a burning desire. I did run a library of my own books for no one in particular when I was a kid. I totally love library binding.

David Wallace

I mean, programming is my career (but I don't mind sharing); but I wouldn't want to be doing it if I didn't love it. It's also not what I studied. But it's far more important to be doing what you love than to line up your career with your studies.

cornbread ninja

4:35 AM

Programming because a few years after my library folded, I finally got my first computer and wanted to learn programming.

I don't love it. I do, but I'm not confident about it.

David Wallace

On the other hand, if you WERE thinking of a career in programming, it would make sense for you to borrow money to live on, and finish your degree as soon as you can.

If there were someone who would lend it to you.

cornbread ninja

There's kind of a problem with libraries; I'm not comfortable with kids.

The school library would be swell, though.

David Wallace

Not everyone in a library is child-facing though.

cornbread ninja

OIC

Ideally, I'd like to have no coworkers.

I guess that leaves writing, to some extent.

David Wallace

@cornbreadninja Ah, quite the social butterfly then are we?

cornbread ninja

4:39 AM

Feh.

David Wallace

I'm sure you'd be fantastic as a copy writer. Do you see yourself doing it in five years' time though?

With or without a degree in programming?

cornbread ninja

Or a degree in journalism/marketing

shrug

The job, it clouds my vision.

I wish that playing pool for a living was more likely.

David Wallace

Can you switch your degree to journalism or marketing?

cornbread ninja

I should look at that again.

ach, it is bed time

David Wallace

Are you sure? It's Sunday tomorrow, after all.

Noah

4:46 AM

Hi

Everyone.

Hope you guys are doing great. How are you @DavidWallace

Programming? Why not go into some other field?

David Wallace

@Noah Thanks. And you?

Noah

I am good. Thanks for asking.

Mahnax

Hello folks.

Noah

here comes Mahnax

Hello Mahnax

How are you doing?

Mahnax

I am doing well, thanks.

I helped my grandmother move today.

Noah

4:49 AM

By the way, I love weekends.

That's great.

Mahnax

I enjoy weekends as well.

Noah

@DavidWallace some folks don't mess up their schedule(s) even on weekends.

David Wallace

I know. I was trying to work out which time zone she might be in.

tchrist

@Noah Quite so. I certainly keep the same schedule on weekends as on weekdays. Which is why it is bed time now.

David Wallace

If I were American, I might have been able to deduce it from her previous remarks.

Noah

5:11 AM

@DavidWallace LOL. How do you know it's she?

David Wallace

She is either female, or a very clever liar, or both.

Noah

She could be a robot? You never know, Dave.

And she cannot be both female and liar at the same time.

3

David Wallace

She has been too consistent over too long a period to be other than who she claims.

Noah

@DavidWallace Mind if I call you Dave?

David Wallace

I've been called worse things.

Noah

5:18 AM

No, no. I am not gonna do that. Sorry. I wont call you Dave then.

Will stick with David.

David Wallace

Noah, I actually have to disappear for a little while.

Noah

?

David Wallace

No, I mean, to be AFK for a short period.

No doubt we'll talk later.

Noah

Fine

Take your time.

Good luck. Talk to you later.

David Wallace

OK. TTFN.

tchrist

5:38 AM

@Robusto I don’t know why you thought hobgoblin might have come from Dutch. Hob was “A familiar or rustic variation of the Christian name Robert or Robin. Hence formerly a generic name for: A rustic, a clown.” It has many other meanings of course, including the name for a male ferret and of course a hobgoblin.

But hobgoblin comes from that hob plus goblin, from the French. It may or may not have been related to cobalus, covalus, a. Gr. κόβᾱλος a rogue, knave, κόβᾱλοι wicked sprites invoked by rogues.

The hobgoblin of English folklore was a smaller sprite, whereas those of Gary Gygax’s Dungeons and Dragons were paradoxically larger than a normal goblin, not smaller than one as its name would imply.

Poor Yoichi. Dowd will be the death of him yet.

@Mahnax Look! Up in the sky! It’s a bird . . . it’s a plane . . . no, it’s . . . .

A. 1327 Pol. Songs (Camden) 238 ― Sathanas··Seyde on is sawe Gobelyn made is gerner Of gromene mawe.
1388 Wyclif Ps. xc. 6 ― Of an arowe fliynge in the dai, of a gobelyn goynge in derknessis.
A. 1400-50 Alexander 5492 ― Gamarody þe goblyn, anothire grym sire.
C. 1500 Melusine i. 4 ― Many manyeres of thinges, the whiche somme called Gobelyns, the other ffayrees, and the other ‘bonnes dames’ or good ladyes.

Mahnax

5:56 AM

@tchrist rubs eyes

I think I dozed off for a bit just now.

tchrist

Heh.

Mahnax

It's not even late. I'm ashamed.

sips tea

tchrist

That’s a frame from this:

►

They finally showed us a snip-teaser of Smaug. Or at least, of his tail.

The deer with the cold is Christmassy-cute.

Noah

@tchrist Is this from Lord of the Rings?

tchrist

@Noah Didn’t you watch it?

It’s from The Hobbit, actually.

Noah

6:01 AM

@tchrist No, not yet. Is it good?

tchrist

The 30-second TV spot is good, yes.

But I am not in New Zealand or Japan, so it has not yet premiered where I live.

Martin Freeman and Benedict Cumberbatch, respectively Watson and Holmes in the recent BBC miniseries, are playing against each other in The Hobbit. Freeman has the titular/eponymous rôle, and Cumberbatch voices both the dragon and the necromancer.

Freeman gets a scale double, being a hobbit. You would think that being a dragon, Cumberbatch would get a scaly double. :)

Noah

@tchrist What's rule on using articles with e-devices like Kindle, iPad, iPhone, etc. in writing?

tchrist

6:16 AM

@Noah What do you mean?

Noah

This is a Kindle. This is Kindle. This is iPad, This is an iPad.

I bought a Kindle. I bought Kindle.

tchrist

You need the article.

Noah

I would use a with Kindle but not with iDevices. Not sure why that is.

tchrist

Otherwise it sounds like a service contract, not a thing.

What is iDevices? A program?

Or a subscription service?

Noah

iPhone, iPad, etc.

For example, I have an iPhone.

But Apple doesnt use articles with thier devices.

tchrist

6:19 AM

Like what?

Noah

One moment, please.

For example: iPhone 5 has a larger screen than iPhone 4s.

Should we say: the iPhone 5 has a larger screen than the iPhone 4s.

tchrist

Yes, you should.

They may be doing some trademarky thing. I don’t know. It sounds off.

Noah

> iPhone 5 is just 7.6 millimeters thin. To make that happen, Apple engineers had to think small, component by component. They created a nano-SIM card, which is 44 percent smaller than a micro-SIM. They also developed a unique cellular solution for iPhone 5. The conventional approach to building LTE into a world phone uses two chips — one for voice, one for data.

This is from their website.

tchrist

Again, I wouldn’t talk that way.

Noah

> Even with so much inside, iPhone 5 is 20 percent lighter and 18 percent thinner than iPhone 4S.

That's what I thought. Does it change meaning?

tchrist

6:26 AM

No.

Noah

Alright. This whole stupid invention of theirs sucks.

tchrist

Which “invention”?

Noah

Removal of articles.

From thier brands.

tchrist

I see.

*their.

Noah

Right.

David Wallace

6:47 AM

Ubuntu is 20% faster than SuSE.

Just saying.

tchrist

Say what?

> The last words are, " Apres la mort cestu rei Johan, si regna su fiz Henri."

I can’t even tell what language that is. Old French? Is it even langue d’œil? It seems to have oc properties.

And what is “cestu”?

After the (something) death [of] King John, his son Henry reigns.

@Cerberus Any idea what “cestu” is above?

Ok, I think it is Old French, from a bit after the Norman Conquest. It might even be NF.

David Wallace

7:06 AM

I believe you're right - French from around the period you mentioned. I believe "cestu" is some kind of inflected form of what eventually became "cette". So I would translate that as "after the death of that King John" or "after the death of the aforementioned King John", or words to that effect.

tchrist

Google’s OCR is completely useless. It scans the thorns as p’s, the yoghs as random wrong things.

But those are dweomerlakes. That’s from Brut.

It’s funny that the old letters all have real names, and the current letter don’t have any name but the one-letter glyph itself.

David Wallace

Hey, typography just went to commitment!

MετάEd

7:58 AM

Zeugma!– I have developed a case of the syllepsis.

David Wallace

8:27 AM

@MετάEd Am I supposed to understand that?

@Monica - I found that other site that you mentioned. Looks interesting.

Monica

9:51 AM

Hello

which one?

David Wallace

@Monica Umm, englishforums.com - you mentioned that it was easier to use than SE.

It's quite different.

Monica

completely different

David Wallace

I found your profile too :-)

Monica

oh, really?

How did you find me? I have another nickname there

David Wallace

I was just browsing around in the site, when I noticed the photos of those pastry things.

Monica

10:01 AM

ah, :D

David Wallace

That site seems to me to be more like a kind of miniature Facebook, in a way. Would you agree?

Monica

agree

David Wallace

And there are an awful lot of people saying things like "I want to improve my English, would anyone like to chat with me".

I haven't worked out the easiest way to find unanswered questions though. Every interesting question that I found had already been adequately answered, so I didn't end up posting anything today. Maybe another day I will.

Monica

did you join EF?

David Wallace

Yes. Only because you can't explore very much without joining up, and I was curious about it, and bored.

Then I spent far too much of today playing that stupid "hidden words" game.

Monica

10:08 AM

what I like about EF and SE ia that their chat rooms are always clean

David Wallace

I don't know what you mean by that.

Monica

You don't know?

David Wallace

Well, I think I MIGHT know, but I'm not certain that I've understood you correctly.

Monica

I mean rude and dirty people who sometimes come to chat rooms

David Wallace

Right, but there are plenty of other internet sites that cater to people like that.

I don't know what the EF administrators are like, but I know that the SE administrators would act fairly quickly if something like that were happening here.

Monica

10:10 AM

No, thank. I prefer these two sites

:)

David Wallace

I think we're lucky here with the administrators that we have. They all seem to be quite approachable; at least, the ones that I have encountered are.

They even come to the chat rooms themselves occasionally. One day, there were three of them in here.

Monica

By the way, usingenglish has interesting language polls.

oh, three of them

David Wallace

Interesting in what way?

Monica

I think they are based on typical mistakes made by non-native speakers

David Wallace

Oh, that's always interesting. The mistakes that different people make often depends on what group of languages their native language comes from.

Monica

10:18 AM

I remember there was a video about typical mistakes that Russian learners of English make

David Wallace

Oh, really? I think the biggest one for Slavic people is the misuse of articles - I guess because the Slavic languages don't really have articles, right?

Monica

Right

David Wallace

But I guess every language has features that are similar to English, and features that are different; so speakers of any language will find some parts of English harder than others.

Conversely, English speakers trying to learn a Slavic language tend to have trouble with verb aspects. I guess it makes sense.

Monica

Especially Russian. It is said the be one of the hardest languages.

David Wallace

I think Mandarin is probably harder.

For an English speaker, anyway.

Russian doesn't really have tones, right?

Monica

10:23 AM

what tones?

I hear many times that Russian is very hard, but at the same time I know a few non-native speakers whose Russian is excellent

David Wallace

Umm, well in Mandarin, each vowel has kind of a pattern of high, low, rising or falling pitch. Something like that, anyway. And it's important to get it right. I don't think Russian has anything like that, does it?

I think for an English speaker, the three hardest things about Russian would be (1) the unfamiliar alphabet (2) case endings for nouns and adjectives, and (3) verb aspects.

Monica

ah, the stress

David Wallace

But I don't really know, because I haven't actually tried to learn Russian.

Monica

Yes, Russian has it.

would you like to try?

David Wallace

What do you have in mind?

Umm, and no, I don't just mean stress. I mean the variations of pitch that go with it.

Monica

10:29 AM

What I have in mind?

I think it has, but I am not sure

Well, I am going to read the next chapter of The Great Gatsby soon

David Wallace

Maybe it does to a small extent. But it's a huge part of Mandarin - if you get the tone wrong in a word, it can mean something completely different.

Monica

is n't it called a stress?

David Wallace

@Monica In Russian or in English?

Monica

Then of course Russian has it

David Wallace

@Monica No, stress isn't quite the same thing as tone.

I think all languages have stress.

Monica

10:31 AM

In English. To improve my vocabulary

David Wallace

For example, in English, "content" means something different depending on which syllable you stress.

@Monica You said "the next chapter". How far through it are you already?

Monica

Russian example

Замок-lock

and Замок-castle

I am on the 4th chapter

As you see, it's the same in Russian

David Wallace

So Замок and Замок are stressed on different syllables? Or do they have different vowel lengths?

Monica

yes, they are stressed on 'a' and 'o'

so it changes the meaning of the word

David Wallace

Interesting. I speak a little Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian. There's a word "gore" in that language that has four variants like this. All are stressed on the o, but they differ in the vowel length of the e, and also in the tone of the o, which can be either stressed-falling or stressed-rising. I can never remember which variant is which, so I always get it wrong.

But I thought I remembered reading that Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian was the only Slavic language where tone made a difference. Of course, it's not nearly to the extent that the Chinese languages are.

Monica

10:39 AM

I thought that only stress makes a difference

David Wallace

Words like this are a tiny minority though.

Monica

I was learning French at school, then German at thw university, but English always seemed to be easy compared to them both

David Wallace

Really?

I thought English was supposed to be harder than either French or German.

Monica

Really and my favourite :)

David Wallace

:-)

Monica

10:42 AM

I wish I hadn't stopped learning French, though.

David Wallace

I thought that because of its mixed ancestry, English had all the most difficult features of both French and German.

Monica

I will need it soon in Geneva

David Wallace

When will you go to Geneva?

Monica

It's complicated. French doesn't have a continuous form.

In a few weeks.

David Wallace

Right. But it has about five different past tenses to make up for it, right?

I'm sure that once you get to Geneva, you'll find that all the French that you know will come back very easily.

Hi @Meysam, are you well?

Meysam

10:44 AM

Hey, I am fine, thanks

Monica

I have a few friends there who say that French is unnecessary in Geneva. Everyone speaks English. It's better to work on your English.

David Wallace

I wouldn't know. I have never been to Switzerland.

I wish I had.

Monica

Hello, Meysam

David Wallace

@Meysam - you and I are still OK, are we?

@Monica But it's always nice to be able to talk to people in their own language. They appreciate the effort.

Meysam

@DavidWallace I don't see no reason why we shouldn't

David Wallace

10:48 AM

I was just worried; that's all.

Monica

French brings sweet memories of my childhood

Meysam

:7096186 I've been just a little busy

David Wallace

@Monica Then that sounds like a really good reason to speak French in Geneva, rather than English.

Monica

My grandmother would often help with my homework.

David Wallace

@Meysam Good. I wish I had been busier. My days seem to drag on a bit now.

Monica

10:49 AM

Indeed :)

And it's so beautiful.

David Wallace

@Monica Oh, that's nice. I can't remember my parents or grandparents ever helping me with homework.

And French does have a really lovely sound to it, when it's spoken nicely.

I also learnt French at school; but that was too many years ago, and I can't speak it at all now. I can read French fairly fluently though.

Meysam

@DavidWallace Try to engage yourself in some social activity

Monica

I didn't really need help. We just always enjoyed practicing it together

David Wallace

@Meysam I should. But when I end my day at work, I can never be bothered.

@Monica I can see why these are happy memories.

Monica

I miss her a lot .

What I needed help with was mathematics.

David Wallace

10:54 AM

@Monica I think most people need help with mathematics at some stage of their schooling.

Monica

The subject I always hated at school. My parents are good at it. Why aren't I like them?!

I wish I was.

David Wallace

@Monica Because you are your own unique person, with your own unique talents. Who wants to be a copy of their parents?

Although I think most parents would like their children to grow up to be just like them.

Monica

My parents are not like that.

David Wallace

@Meysam Can you suggest anything?

@Monica Really? Not even deep inside?

Monica

No, maybe because they know that I am completely different from them.

Meysam

10:57 AM

@DavidWallace Go to the pool

David Wallace

@Meysam Hmm. For real?

Monica

:D

Meysam

@DavidWallace Unless you don't know swimming

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…