English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:04 AM

@tchrist You mean the bottle fell into your moth, just as people "fell into" this sex toy prior to going to the ER.

My friend said this bag of candy had "fallen onto" the conveyor belt at the supermarket.

He sat and sang a melody,
his errantry a-tarrying;
he begged a pretty butterfly
that fluttered by to marry him.
She scorned him and she scoffed at him,
she laughed at him upitying
so long he studied wizardry
and sigaldry and smithying.

The moths comes seldom by day.

The butterflies, moreso.

But the true villains are the dumbledors.

Cerberus

*come

tchrist

Purdy.

He battled with the Dumbledors,
the Hummerhorns, and Honeybees,
and won the Golden Honeycomb;
and running home on sunny seas
in ship of leaves and gossamer
with blossom for a canopy,
he sat and sang, and furbished up
and burnished up his panoply.

Cerberus

Do you see its two large legs?

tchrist

I think you have found a Hummerhorn.

I see them.

Cerberus

12:09 AM

This one is about thrice as big as the other one was.

tchrist

I think they were on one of the candidates I proposed to you.

So mayhap it is that.

Cerberus

Could be...

tchrist

Odd that you see them only on its left side.

I’m too bluthered to seek for the earlier posts, but you could probably dig them up.

Cerberus

I think they are present on either side.

I rather thought it strange that they should only be present on two segments.

Too bad I can't record a video with the Magnifier.

> Bob's driving. Too, he's buying the food. or Also, he's buying the food.

tchrist

No, something I showed you had only a few of the big ones.

Cerberus

12:15 AM

Too, he's buying the food.

This sounds plain wrong to me!

tchrist

Of course.

Cerberus

How can Stoney endorse this?

tchrist

Too is postpositive.

End of story. Or Stoney.

Cerberus

2

A: "also is" at the end of sentence

Your sentence is grammatical, but not very idiomatic, at least in US English. My impression is that in ordinary speech: too is used most frequently, almost always at the end of the clause: Bob's driving, and John's driving too. or Bob's driving. John too. Bob's driving, and he's ...

The let your vote speak.

tchrist

That isn’t quite true, but its use as also is postpositive.

Mahnax

12:17 AM

Hello.

Cerberus

Yo.

tchrist

> Too long have you sat in shadows and trusted to twisted tales and crooked promptings.

Cerberus

That's a different too.

tchrist

I hate being tripsy.

Cerberus

But as long as you're just tipsy...

Mahnax

12:18 AM

@Cerb Are you doing NaNoWriMo?

Cerberus

Nop.

Are you?

Mahnax

Yessir.

tchrist

Wowza, it’s like tonight Cerb and I can’t produce well-formed sentences to save our lives.

Cerberus

I never can.

5 mins ago, by Cerberus

The let your vote speak.

tchrist

The saccades corrected it for you.

Cerberus

12:22 AM

I gave up on typing long ago.

Good.

tchrist

Taiping Rebellion

|combatant2 = Taiping Heavenly Kingdom | |commander1 = |commander2 = |strength1 = |strength2 = 1,000,000–3,000,000 regulars |casualties1 = |casualties2 = |casualties3 = Total dead~20,000,000 including civilians and soldiers (best estimate)Highest estimates go up to 40,000,000 |notes = }} The Taiping Rebellion was a widespread civil war in southern China from 1850 to 1864, against the ruling Manchu-led Qing Dynasty. It was led by heterodox Christian convert Hong Xiuquan, who, having claimed to have received visions, maintained that he was the younger brother of Jesus Chr...

Cerberus

Good point.

tchrist

Always it is the he-terodoces who do the conquering. The world would be in gentler hands but did the she-terodoces hold the reins of power.

Cerberus

Do you mean heterodoxies?

tchrist

That’s just a disguise.

Takes moxie.

Cerberus

12:27 AM

Moxie? Isn't that food?

tchrist

Kid me you?

Cerberus

Moksie is food. That's all I know.

Or perhaps its moksi.

tchrist

moxie = “Courage, ‘guts’, ‘nerve’; energy, pep.” perhaps < Latin mox: soon, quick.

Cerberus

allrecipes.nl/recept/4419/moksie-alesie.aspx

> 1925–30, Americanism ; after Moxie, a trademark (name of a soft drink)

See, not something I would know.

tchrist

You stole my book.

Cerberus

12:30 AM

I didn't steal anything.

tchrist

I had no idea there was a trade name involved.

Before my time.

Cerberus

I'm an honest burger.

tchrist

Oh, I grant you the ham part.

Cerberus

Burgers are beef, silly.

tchrist

The special sauce changes everything.

Cerberus

12:31 AM

I can be saucy.

tchrist

Ostrich burgers. Bison burgers. Tuna burgers. Salmon burgers.

Cerberus

Bah.

Those sound like silly restaurant lingo.

Like "aubergine caviar".

tchrist

What would you have them called?

Minces?

I don’t think that bird would fly.

Cerberus

Yes. Or tartare.

At least here tartare can be cooked.

tchrist

ne absorbeat eas tartarus

Tartare is trop fufi for the peds.

Cerberus

12:35 AM

Let Tartarus not absorb them?

tchrist

Certs.

Cerberus

And what is fufi? Refined?

tchrist

Let them fall not into Hell.

Fufi is English slang for Spanish slang cursi.

Cerberus

Who not?

And what is that?

tchrist

Libera eas de ore leonis,
ne absorbeat eas tartarus,
ne cadant in obscurum.

Ok, cadant is polluting my absorbeat.

But you get the idea.

Oh, let me find fufi for you.

Cerberus

12:38 AM

How do you mean polluting?

And what are those eas?

tchrist

The Spanish definition of cursi is exactly English fufi:

2. adj. coloq. Dicho de una persona: Que presume de fina y elegante sin serlo. U. t. c. s.
3. adj. coloq. Dicho de una cosa: Que, con apariencia de elegancia o riqueza, es ridícula y de mal gusto.

Ah, sin serlo.

Exactly.

Utcs?

Prententiously so, silly and in bad taste.

Damn it accents are broken.

u'sase tambie'n como sustantivo

But not in English.

Fufi is only an adjective in English.

Well, unless it is vocative for a poodle.

Oh wait, no, that's Fifi. :)

Cerberus

12:44 AM

Ahhh.

tchrist

Fifi is usually quite fufi.

Hm, you might know fufu, or frufru, or however they spell that.

I'm sure Dutch must have something similar.

Cerberus

Froufrou sounds like...

I don't know, a name?

Fifi too is a name.

Of a small dog.

tchrist

Froufrou might be the French version?

Please do not bring up cabbages.

Cerberus

It's probably French, but it is the only similar word that we would use in Dutch.

tchrist

@tchrist True, OED 1 (fasc.Sep.1913) says, “Rarely, now never, used at the beginning of a clause”. But the 1987 Supplement reports “The use at the beginning of a clause has been revived, at first in the U.S” and provides citations from a trade publication, an academic reference work, UK and US newspapers, and popular fiction (Ludlum, The Holcroft Covenant). — StoneyB 5 mins ago

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:53 AM

@tchrist unusual accents, hah. Says the guy who rhymes "root" and "foot"

tchrist

That is something I will willfully disbelieve.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

what do you disbelieve?

tchrist

Stoney.

It depends on which root you mean.

Cerberus

Too to me. I'm afraid I would correct my students. — Cerberus 10 secs ago

tchrist

The one that means to cheer rhymes with moot. In contrast, the one that sits below your ankle rhymes with soot.

Cerberus

12:55 AM

Soot suit?

tchrist

It's just how it is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist except that it isn't.

tchrist

No, soot rhymes with foot.

Suit rhymes with shoot.

Nobody says syoot.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

soot/foot/book/look all have the same vowel. root/suit/loot/boot/fruit all have the same vowel

tchrist

Nope.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:57 AM

except in your bizzarro dialect

tchrist

It is perfectly common.

You are a foreigner.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so are you

Cerberus

There are two distinctions in English that only my subconscious might consider, because my conscious brain can't wrap itself around them: that between /u/ and /ʊ/ and that between /æ/ and /e/.

tchrist

Who cannot even spell bizarro.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist spelling is not at issue here.

tchrist

12:58 AM

issyoo.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I saw the squigly line and ignorred it.

Cerberus

@tchrist You're a foreigner.

tchrist

@Cerberus Phoneme bucket mismatch.

Cerberus

What does that mean?

tchrist

@Cerberus Sure, to you Dootchers.

Cerberus

12:58 AM

No, to the Queen.

tchrist

You might be surprised.

Cerberus

Colonials don't speak proper English. Sad but true.

And most Brits don't either.

See My Fair Lady.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

LoL "proper English".

Cerberus

I was helping you.

So don't turn on me.

tchrist

It means that it is hard for people whose native tongue does not phonemically distinguish two different sounds that another language does ever to to come to hold firmly their distinction in mind. You have gigantic allophonic buckets, causing phonemic collisions.

Cerberus

1:00 AM

That's not entirely true.

Because I think I pronounce them correctly if I don't think.

tchrist

I have it on good authority that our colonials at our South Polar Colony speak quite normally.

I do not know Dootch phunology, so do not know the mappings.

Cerberus

And other phonemes are crystal clear, even though we don't distinguish them.

And others again we don't have at all, and yet it's easy to distinguish them consciously, like /θ/ and /ð/.

tchrist

I doubt you were bounced upon your noggins as a pupster, so surely there is a scientific explanation for this.

Mitch

fufu - that african bean dip stuff
froufrou - frilly stuff, maybe on dresses, maybe on knick-knacks

Cerberus

I said "not entirely".

tchrist

1:03 AM

awaits elaboration

Cerberus

It is partly true.

It's just that certain distinctions are somehow easier to comprehend than others.

The mere fact that we don't have this distinction is not the only relevant factor.

tchrist

There is a great deal of variation amongst native speakers in the two pairs you cited.

Although they are perfectly clear to me.

Cerberus

For example, we don't have /ʌ/ v. /ɜ/, and yet those are easy enough.

tchrist

There is a certain American accent that moves bag and beg around such that sometimes one sounds like the next.

Cerberus

Yeah, I know.

That may be part of the issue.

tchrist

1:06 AM

I do not know what /ɜ/ is alleged to be.

Cerberus

Fur.

tchrist

Not here.

Cerberus

A (fairly strong) Dutch accent will pronounce but with the same vowel as in fur or fir.

I only know RP, so that's what I will refer to.

tchrist

@Cerberus That's /fɝ/, sometimes transcribed /fʊɹ/ or /fʌɹ/ (perhaps dubiously, but still). There can be no non-rhotic /ɜ/. I challenge you to show me a word in which this alleged /ɜ/ is alleged to occur such that no <r> follows it, and I shall show you what its actual vowel is.

Cerberus

tchrist

1:11 AM

Nope.

That has an r.

Doesn't count.

Give me one without an r.

Cerberus

It has no r.

tchrist

Say what?

You are on drugs.

Cerberus

3 mins ago, by Cerberus

I only know RP, so that's what I will refer to.

I only deal with or speak of RP.

tchrist

I do not recognize the sound.

Cerberus

Speak RP and read the OED, and all will be clear.

tchrist

1:13 AM

Don't be daft.

Cerberus

Am I?

We are talking about my experience with English vowels. I chose a pair that happens to occur only before /r/ in your particular accent—but why does that matter? My point is just that it is easy to distinguish consciously for me.

Even though they are one in Dutch.

As evidenced by the way bad Dutch accents pronounce them both as /ɜ/.

Or /ɜː/, but that doesn't matter.

tchrist

Example: murder is normally transcribed /'mərdər/ in American phonemic spellings. There is no difference there beyond stress. And there is certainly no fictitious /ɜ/.

If those were different vowels, you could find me a minimal pair for them, and you cannot.

QED

Cerberus

Why do you insist on referring to an accent that is irrelevant to my experience?

And irrelevant to the point anyway.

A Dutchman might pronounce but and bird the same way.

tchrist

Both are demonstrably and self-evidently false.

Cerberus

Although someone whose English is bad enough to confuse /ʌ/ and /ɜ(ː)/ would probably pronounce the r in bird.

Robusto

1:36 AM

@Cerberus So my English is bad because I pronounce the r in bird?

@Cerberus By "deal with or speak" one presumes you mean you "affect" RP.

Cerberus

@Robusto A dog is a mammal, but a mammal is not always a dog.

@Robusto I mean talk about.

@Robusto To make sure you understood the context, I was talking about Dutchmen.

Is your patriotism blinding you?

tchrist

Where is our favorite fruit tonight (his tomorrow) anyway? Usually David the Kiwi is the one to be the pommy bastard. And he at least is a native speaker.

Cerberus

@tchrist I think you understood absolutely nothing of what I said if you are in any way offended.

I was talking about something that happens to me in RP, as an illustration of how complicated foreign phonemes work.

Robusto

1:51 AM

@Cerberus Are you trying to get Jasper's job?

Cerberus

@tchrist You then started talking about your own accent and brought up how there is some connection with /r/ there, but that's just not what I was talking about.

You probably didn't understand my point.

@Robusto As in...

Robusto

He is Non Sequitur. The job is filled. We'll keep your resume on file.

Cerberus

17 mins ago, by Robusto

@Cerberus So my English is bad because I pronounce the r in bird?

This smacks of offended patriot feelings?

Was I mistaken?

Because I was never in any way talking about Americans or their accents.

Not once did I comment on either.

Except to say that I wasn't talking about them.

Apparently Tchrist missed that.

I was talking about Dutchmen who do or do not pronounce the r in bird.

Robusto

@Cerberus It smacks of incredulity that you would make pronouncements of a prescriptivist nature about the pronunciations of native speakers. I mean, not being one yourself and all that. And that there are many different accents, none of which is native to you. And that any accent you do affect will be donned like a suit of clothing. So what you are doing is making a fashion statement. Which seems somewhat beside the point.

Cerberus

@Robusto Are you sure you understood what I was saying? You have now offended me, seriously.

I can't believe you are insulting me too, and without reading what I say.

Robusto

1:58 AM

35 mins ago, by Cerberus

Although someone whose English is bad enough to confuse /ʌ/ and /ɜ(ː)/ would probably pronounce the r in bird.

This is the statement I read. I don't know what kind of context could ameliorate the insulting nature of that statement.

Cerberus

3 mins ago, by Cerberus

I was talking about Dutchmen who do or do not pronounce the r in bird.

Robusto

Well, I'll not stand around and let someone call me a Dutchman. I'm going to bed.

Cerberus

The English of a Dutchman with a bad accent will exhibit certain characteristics. Right?

They happen to pronounce the r, usually,

This says nothing at all about non-Dutchmen.

And it is not the r that makes the accent bad.

@Robusto Because Dutchmen with a good English accent also often pronounce the r.

I think you owe it to me to read my explanation.

Meysam

7:56 AM

what's the usage of "one" before "too many" in this: "This is my four year old daughter, Abigael, after hearing one too many mentions of the election"

►

Matt Эллен

8:34 AM

@Meysam "one too many" is an idiom, essentially meaning too many, but implying that it's not many more than too many (or literally one more).

it's similar to the idea of "the straw that broke the camel's back"

@Cerberus I particularly liked the Richard III one, last week :D This one is good too. I do the whole over dramatic turning back on myself thing too!

KitFox

10:45 AM

Good morning.

Carlo_R.

11:17 AM

Good morning, Kit :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:03 PM

Japan's creepy thalidomide-baby phone handset

KitFox

Finally, a phone I can masturbate with.

Carlo_R.

+1, Kit :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:35 PM

@KitFox Just set it to "vibrate" and have someone call you. Works with any phone that's suitably situated.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think you don't have the correct anatomy to sympathize with the deficits in that plan.

How much do moose weigh? About a ton?

Oh. Not quite. About half a ton.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox what, because I'm Canadian, I should know about moose? They're from 840–1,500 lbs

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Um, I'm from Maine. I should know about moose.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Didn't Susan Sarandon, Cher, and Michelle Pfeiffer stick pins in that doll in The Witches of Eastwick? Which resulted in

►

MετάEd

2:02 PM

Oct 23 at 22:39, by MετάEd

Moose? Moose! I like a moose. I've never had anything quite like a moose. I've had many women, my life has been loose, but I've never had anything quite like a moose.

cornbread ninja

2:20 PM

WTF

-1

A: What's the meaning of boilerplate in programming?

In the context of programming, I do not believe that boilerplate is strictly a technical term like prototype and template. An actual boilerplate is something that was placed on a boiler. It is usually pre-printed with the exception of a serial number, boiler capacity, etc. In this respect, it is...

Matt Эллен

Is there a word for saying something "assertfully"? e.g. "Don't be a bitch," she said assertfully.

KitFox

Assertively.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен *"Don't be a bitch", she asserted

KitFox

Or that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Actually I think mine is wrong

Matt Эллен

2:30 PM

@KitFox yeah, I think that's what I mean!

KitFox

I'm up to a mere 740 words today. I keep getting sidetracked.

Matt Эллен

thanks guys :D

KitFox

You're welcome!

Matt Эллен

@KitFox I've taken the day off, but I'm still only on 2600

KitFox

@MattЭллен Oh that's great!

Matt Эллен

2:31 PM

a friend of mine passed 3000 an hour ago

KitFox

I'm close to that only just now (2500ish)

But my plot keeps getting weirder and eviller.

Matt Эллен

I'm trying to do it in 10minute bursts

KitFox

I'm afraid it will be nonsensical in a few days.

Matt Эллен

Mines a very slow burn, but I'm hoping that means I won't run out of steam

KitFox

I keep thinking that I am going to run out any second.

Want an excerpt?

Matt Эллен

2:33 PM

me too

@KitFox yeah, go on!

KitFox

> Tess laughed. “I found the cache in the attic as well. You’ve been busy, I take it?”
“Well, I was scared for a long time, but you could say I got complacent. The desire to carry on the Fox’s work is too strong. I see people every day—every single day—who need to be relieved of their burdens. It was a woman in a pink velor jumpsuit making her way to the grocery store that brought me back.”
Tess looked puzzled. She cocked her head, “How did you manage it?”
“I hit her with my car. She fucked up the entire front end. It was almost as bad as hitting a moose.”

Matt Эллен

creepy! I'm intrigued :D

KitFox

Yay for creepy! Comedic horror, here I come!

Matt Эллен

Back to it!

KitFox

No! OK.

OK, that's one more sentence.

Matt Эллен

2:40 PM

yeah, me too!

MετάEd

@KitFox omg

Mitch

@KitFox that's messed up.

Excellent!

but not even the slightest smidgen of a hint of remorse?

Oh I get it...'relieved of their burdens' ... literally!

KitFox

@Mitch Should there be?

Mitch

@KitFox not if that's the point, that she's trying not to show anything like that.

KitFox

How long does it usually take for a person to be vested in their pension plan?

Robusto

2:57 PM

@KitFox Varies. Five years is kind of normal.

KitFox

kthx

;-)

Lunch, later.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:14 PM

So y'all really have ads like this on TV down there? terryforpresident.com

Cuz holy freaking crap

KitFox

Jesus gods. I can't imagine that those are allowed on TV.

What a sick, sick son of a bitch.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It has apparently aired in Pittsburgh

KitFox

I was talking about the abortion one.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oh, I didn't even watch that one. The anti-muslim one was disgusting enough

Matt Эллен

mmmm, Kentuky Fried Baby Bits

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:22 PM

Did you see the "war on women" one?

They have a woman saying "There's a war on women... waged by men... who think a pregnant woman... is a broken sex-toy... and their way to fix her... is to kill her baby"

The sheer audacity of that deceitful misrepresentation of reality made me laugh

Matt Эллен

I just watched.

I'm glad I've not seen UK ministers making up such nonsense.

I'd have to write them some stern letters. but I don't have time. Nanowrimo!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The most shocking ads we usually see in Canada - the most vile insults that are usually thrown about - are the ones where candidates are accused of being too American. ;)

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is so wrong on so many levels. I want to kill them all.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox I wonder how much they believe their own nonsense and how much of it is psycopathy

KitFox

I don't know. I can't fathom that kind of hate.

Or that level of meddling in everyone else's business.

And hypocrisy.

Cerberus

3:34 PM

Agreed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

gotta run.

Cerberus

Bai.

Do you feel that those advertisements should be outlawed?

Matt Эллен

I wish there were a way to force them to be displayed along side rational ideas on the topic

Cerberus

Hehe.

A split screen.

KitFox

3:53 PM

What are some typical Halloween games besides bobbing for apples?

Matt Эллен

some sort of haunted house?

trick or treating is sort of a game

KitFox

Haunted house. OMG. Of course, duh. Perfect setting.

Matt Эллен

yay!

user19161

4:04 PM

Hello @barrie I see that you are here in chat again.

user19161

4:15 PM

Aww, Barrie left.

user19161

@matt See my new blue! And it's time for the Friday song again!

Barrie England

4:33 PM

Back again. Bill Franke wanted to continue a discussion here later about 'between you and I', and so on, but I have rather a lot to say about it. Is there any limit on the size of posts here?

Noah

Hi

user19161

@BarrieEngland Say all you want!

Noah

@BarrieEngland No

user19161

@Noah There is only a limit for Noah.

Barrie England

I'm not sure a long post here would get much attention, because the conversation moves on so quickly. I think we need a proper discussion forum.

Which of course is what some of us try to turn EL&U into.

Cerberus

4:42 PM

@BarrieEngland If you @person your line, it will turn up in his inbox, so he won't miss it.

As to long posts: there is a size limit, but it is only applied if your line is all one paragraph.

Barrie England

The whole thing, or just a message about it?

Cerberus

If you insert a shift-enter somewhere, it can be...long.

That is, I have never encountered any size limit with a shift-enter.

Barrie England

Thanks. I'll see what I can do. I'm still writing it.

MετάEd

@KitFox Iowa? Oh, Iowa, I am so sorry.

Cerberus

As to "between you and I", isn't that a classic case of hypercorrection?

KitFox

4:45 PM

@BarrieEngland You could start your own chat room for it.

Or I could create one for you.

Barrie England

I don't think so and it's certainly not recent. It's been around for centuries. I'm sceptical about any hypercorrection explanation.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Barrie England

Or I may just put it on my blog and post a link to it.

Cerberus

How else to explain it? Hypercorrection is as old as Rome...

MετάEd

Hello Barrie!

@BarrieEngland Do you think it's a discussion that would be useful to refer back to? Maybe something that could be posted as a Q&A on meta?

Or even a question that you post and answer yourself?

KitFox

4:50 PM

@BarrieEngland Or you could write an article for the EL&U blog.

user19161

@KitFox Good advertising skills there!

KitFox

I'm sure @Matt will thank me.

Barrie England

@Cerberus What Latin examples do you have? In English I think it's best seen as part of the erosion of inflections that has been going on almost since English was a recogised language.

user19161

@BarrieEngland By the way, you cannot ping with a space there.

Barrie England

Thanks. Now edited.

OK, I'll think about MετάEd's and KitFox's ideas too.

Cerberus

4:58 PM

@BarrieEngland I'd have to think about Latin examples, but I'm sure I have read about hypercorrection in Latin. As to English, hasn't me rather been the "default" form for a long time? I must confess I don't know enough about the history of the language.

JSBձոգչ

5:09 PM

me has been the default for a long time, prescriptivism be damned

Cerberus

But for how long?

JSBձոգչ

5:22 PM

I don't really know, and it's hard to tell b/c of the influence of prescriptivism before the 20th C

Barrie England

The use of 'I' in coordination, when in objective position and after a preposition, seems to have fallen foul, like so many other usages, of the eighteenth century grammarians.

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ Yes, I don't think there is any language that didn't have prescriptive influence at any point in its history.

MετάEd

5:48 PM

"Santorum blasts screwed-up media"

user19161

Hey guys, I have some food question.

user19161

What exactly is a turtle pie?

user19161

I googled and got lots of recipes and pics, but no definition of a turtle pie.

user19161