The seduction of Batseeba is instructional and explicit.

Instructional?

How to bed other men's wives in ten easy steps?

Or, my opinion would be, as well as the authors, why not to. And the authour relates the arguments in a fair manner =)

Interesting. I'll add it to my list of things to read.

It is an extremely well written book, I loved it. And as the usual disclaimer, I'm from Sweden. Not worrying about gods; (atheism) is par here. We do care for mythology though(Viking cartoons are fun). Please note that I'm not trying to belittle any beliefs here, just stating the case were I live.

But surely, the fact that David's lust for Bathsheba led him to commit murder (at least, in the Biblical account) makes it wrong. There is the answer to "why not to". Or have I misunderstood something?

@DavidWallace Killing somebody for some lust? Yep that about as awful as it can get. Killing any human for any reason is in my opinion unjust.

What about self-defence?

Or defence of others?

For myself, no.

For others yes

If a man broke into my home, with the intention of killing me, and I had the means to kill him first, I would surely do so.

I would not.

If a man broke into my home, with the intention of raping my wife, and I had the means to kill him first, I would surely do so.

I would.

The intent is the huge question here

@CaptainGiraffe Why not? Is it better to let a murderer live than to let YOURSELF live?

The $64000 Q is the intent. Me holding a gun might well cause that intent.

Suppose the intent is not in any doubt.

Sure, but that will never happen

He is carrying a large knife and says "I am going to kill you".

Not a problem.

So in that circumstance, you would retrieve the loaded gun from under your pillow and shoot him first?

The road you are advocating is making that statment a self fulfilling prophecy

But you explicitly said you would NOT kill him first. I am trying to explore why.

No a large knife you run from. Run run run.

I am lying in bed. He crashes through my bedroom window. I can't get up and run without getting closer to him first.

Ok, sleeping?

Umm, does it matter? Let's just say that running is not an option.

alone?

For the sake of argument, let's say you're alone. (Because you've already said that you would kill him to defend your wife)

Well, then If he wants to kill me I'm pretty dead before I notice

No, suppose you have time to get the gun out from under your pillow and shoot him. But you don't have the time to get out of bed and run away.

I won't have a gun so OK I'm dead...

Let me propose this David

This whole situation is hypothetical.

But you seem unwilling to admit that, given the opportunity, you would kill somebody if not doing so would cost you your life.

I have a mentality that says non violence is as a useful tool for change as the gun

the only ones that needs guns are wrriors and criminals

@CaptainGiraffe The man looks crazy. You figure there's no reasoning with him.

Yeah, just accept David's situation: kill or be killed.

Don't try to find ways out of the dilemma.

@DavidWallace I've seen that already

@CaptainGiraffe what about police officers?

Not pretty but it was non lethal.

It's always better and easier if you don't have to face a difficult choice, but then you still don't know anything!

They have guns and use them very sparingly.

But do they NEED to have them?

Well, I'm not a police officer

OK, but I'm proposing that your statement above ... "the only ones that need guns are warriors and criminals" be modified to include those people whose job is to protect us from criminals.

Nope not at all.

So police officers don't need guns at all?

It works like a charm in many countries,

and why not London

Are there countries where NO police officers have guns?

Sure to break down a Hells angels nest

E.g. London

So, the only ones that need guns are warriors, criminals and people who must break up Hells Angels nests?

I think you'll find that SOME London police have guns, even if it isn't all of them.

Really David? This is turning in to an extremely silly argument.

OK, but I am contesting your original point - that killing another human is always unjust. It seems to me that that is simply untrue.

@DavidWallace I think you are a very violence oriented person, you might want to seek professional help.

I find that extremely interesting.

One unjustice plus one unjustice does not make true.

Oh, you and I are using different definitions of injustice, it seems.

I agree.

I don't see self-defence as an injustice. It seems that you do.

I think that the wording of self defence is inadequate.

You are promoting it in the case of defending others.

Maybe. OK, let's go back to the question of the criminal who breaks into your home, intending to rape your wife. If the only way you can stop him is to kill him, you'd do so, right?

And no recognition of the gray area.

He tries to rape my wife? Why am I incapacitated?

OK, what would you do?

I'll try my damndest.

He is bigger and stronger than you.

No he is not.

But you have a gun and he does not.

I'm R. Skaanaker the gold medalist of many Olympics.

(This is your initiation into the English Language and Usage Chat Room, by the way. You are earning marks out of 100 for your answers.)

So you will attempt to subdue him physically, but without weapons?

I'd fire ti relieve the rapist of his little finger, as well as his way too long hair. He will limp on account of missing four toes. Two from each foot.

@CaptainGiraffe Suppose you're not that good a shot?

I'd rather not shoot at all.

A burglerer will run

So you'd let him have his way with your wife?

A murderer will have done the deed

Oh, you mean you point the gun at him and say "stop or I'll shoot" or something?

And he turns to you and says "you're too chicken to shoot".

@DavidWallace Is it appropriate to say Fuck you, here in chat?

Umm, you can use it in a sentence.

If you say "David, f**k you", you'll probably get flagged.

My point is, there are loads of situations in which killing someone is NOT unjust. Police officers frequently face such dilemmas. And soldiers. It doesn't seem right to pretend they don't exist.

Ok, lets try: Daniel. Fuck you! You are using arguments that are making my spine shiver. I have but one suggestion; leave the bible. "Violence creates violence".

But a better sentence than "David, f**k you" might be "I am not comfortable with this conversation, can we talk about something different please?"

You and I don't have those dilemmas STOP talking about them as they are ours!!!

OK, no problem. I am glad not to have ever encountered such a dilemma.

And I'm sorry to have given you such a scary first experience in this chat room. It's often a more welcoming place.

I see you are a C++ programmer, right?

Kant had similar attitudes to violating his categorical imperatives.

Ok. I appreciate the comforting words, but I'll probably be scarce around here.

I think he advocated not lying when a Nazi came to your door asking whether you had any Jews hiding in the cellar (presuming that you had them).

Oh, don't judge the whole room by one violence-oriented user.

He felt that upholding the principle of not lying was more important.

@Cerberus OK, I won't hide in Kant's cellar then!

@Cerberus Did he say why?

Crime and punishment also provides anecdotal consciences that may be useful.

@DavidWallace It never became completely clear to me.

Did he never throw a surprise birthday party for his wife?

hi

Hello

Why are people talking like they're dumb

Who in particular?

Hi!

IDK I just scrolled through the chat and I see cussing

Oh, umm, it happens here sometimes.

My fault; I didn't realise that I had offended the other person so much with my questions.

...Awkward

hahaha its funny though

Its ok

I do it on stack overflow all the time

@Cerberus I feel myself wanting to make all sorts of comments on the answers to that question.

Haha, then don't.

Don't, because I feel myself wanting to?

How about the one that says that "not answering" is an option?

Do you have any Jews here? Umm, umm, umm, I'd rather not say. Hello?