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2:00 PM
It's hard to tell through the murderous desire to sleep.
Yourself?
 
The wee ones are being wee? And fun?
 
My daughter's daycare was closed yesterday so I tried to take her shopping. We only made it to one store and it was the most exhausting 15 minutes of shopping I've ever done. In the end she said "We're not buying anything for me, are we?" and then "I don't want to shop, I want to go home and play with my toys".
 
Wow.
 
but since the only reason we even went to that store in the first place was so I could exchange some Lego I got for Christmas for different Lego, (already had those kits), I ended up "buying" a toy for myself so I can see why she was a bit put off.
 
2:03 PM
Oh, I see. So you were kind of shooting yourself in the foot.
I don't know how you could even set the expectation for that visit.
"We're going to the toy store to exchange Daddy's toys, but you can't get anything."
"Because Daddy's not really buying toys."
"Because I'm trading one for the other."
"Because we're not going home first."
"Because I said so!"
But no meltdown?
It sounds like you did the smart thing and changed your plan.
 
@Kitḫ well, my plan involved going to a different store and maybe buying her a book, not that she needs anything after Christmas, where she got so many new things that she can't keep track of it all. But she didn't want to, so we went home and played with my new toy together.
but man, she wanted EVERYTHING in that store. Everything that was pink, and everything else too while we're at it.
I don't know where she got the idea that if it's pink she should have it, but what a frickin' tenacious idea it is.
"Oh, I want this pink stool!" "You already have two stools" "But I don't have a pink one!"
 
Holy oh sheep dip.
"We'll paint it pink."
 
"Oh! I want this pink box!" "You have one just like that at home" "It's not pink"
And it wasn't just toys she wanted. If she'd had her way, we'd have left that store with a new children's table with two chairs (not pink, actually, blue space-exploration themed), a lamp, a new bed (or at least a set of pillows and covers, all pink), pink boxes, pink baskets, two stools (one for her, one for her brother), a green cushion that looked like it was upholstered with leaves, a glass food container with a pink flower-pattern lid, a drink cup with removable snack cup on the bottom...
even a bunch of toys that she didn't know what they were, but she knew that she wanted them.
 
Whoa.
 
OH! also, she wanted every single bag of jelly belly candy in the store. "Can we buy THIS one?" "No" "Why?" "Because you still have candy left over from Halloween" "But we don't have jelly beans!" x30
 
2:18 PM
At least she wanted to include her brother in the spree.
Haha. I was trying to parse the x30 as an emoticon.
 
@Kitḫ That was just an excuse, really, because if I buy him something I have to buy her something, or at least maybe she can use if when he's not.
@Kitḫ heheh no I mean literally I had that conversation 30 times. And all while standing at the checkout, waiting to return things.
 
Still. She's demonstrating clear tactical thinking. A real milestone in her development!
 
It was going well, despite the constant begging, except that each refusal made her sulkier and sulkier until she was no longer cooperative.
 
Hmm. My only unrequested bit of advice would have been to praise her for her patience and tell her how good she was being since you understood how hard it can be for a little person to stare at candy and be in a toy store and not get anything.
Also, bribes.
And man, all that in 15 minutes? I think I would have lost my sh-t.
I'm impressed with your patience. I think it must come with your Canadian passport.
 
@Kitḫ Tried that
@Kitḫ Tried that too, sorta.
 
2:25 PM
So you were left with threats. Ugh.
At least you got to play later.
 
I tried to frame the whole day in terms of "first we get donuts, then we go shopping" and the shopping was "first daddy runs an errand, then we shop where you want to shop" and the "bribe" was "let's finish up here and go to the bookstore and I can get you something"
 
Wow. That's about the best way you could frame it.
Sorry it didn't work.
But really, good for you for being willing to change on the fly, and just scrap your plan.
 
Ah well. I'm glad that she decided on her own that she didn't want to shop anymore, because I was already coming to the same conclusion
 
2:49 PM
@MrShinyandNew安宇 It's always nice when they figure it out on their own.
 
Word to my naggers! Negative reinforcement fo'shizzle
 
@Kitḫ yeah, the rest of the day went pretty smoothly.
 
@MattЭллен Isn't it negative punishment?
 
2:52 PM
Yea positive punishment!
 
Hmm. I think you are mistaken.
 
I mean nay negative rewards!
 
negative reinforcement is where you stop doing something when someone has done what you want, e.g. nagging
I am not mistaken :D
 
No, reinforcement increases behavior.
Punishment decreases behavior.
 
aye, that's what nagging does!
 
2:53 PM
I mean jelly babies for all!
 
Bear with me. (or bare with me) Let me think it through.
Nagging is an existing stimulus which ceases when the unwanted behavior ceases.
Is that right?
 
sounds about how I understand it
 
There are four things, +/- punishment and +/- reinforcement aren't there? But I don't remember the difference between anything anymore
 
The removal of the stimulus makes it "negative."
 
I think so
 
2:56 PM
The cessation of behavior makes it "punishment."
 
Reinforcement is a term in operant conditioning and behavior analysis for a process of strengthening a directly measurable dimension of behavior--such as rate (e.g., pulling a lever more frequently), duration (e.g., pulling a lever for longer periods of time), magnitude (e.g., pulling a lever with greater force), or latency (e.g., pulling a lever more quickly following the onset of an environmental event)--as a function of the delivery of a "valued" stimulus (e.g. money from a slot machine) immediately or shortly after the occurrence of the behavior. A reinforcer is a temporally cont...
This is actually the section that has a little chart
 
My undergraduate honor project was in operant conditioning. I can't believe I have forgotten all this stuff.
 
nagging is positive punishment... if it's added to get a behavior to stop... right?
 
Holy crap! I remembered!
 
sits down for better explanation
 
user19161
2:59 PM
Well, Matt is the official psychologist here.
 
No, no. I mean I remembered the distinction between positive/negative and reinforcement/punishment.
 
well, I suppose it can be both +ve punishment (get a behaviour to stop) or -ve reinforcement (get a behaviour to start)
 
user19161
@MattЭллен I just gave you official status above.
 
Yeah, I was going to say that then we just have to figure out how to classify it.
 
@JasperLoy hmmmm, I'd say Kit know at least as much as me, if not more
 
3:00 PM
Pigeons, rats, mice, and monkeys hardly make me an expert.
 
making undergrads push buttons, on the other hand ...
 
Oh. I did that too.
 
user19161
I always wonder why people study animals and then conclude for humans. It is not too reliable in my opinion.
 
People study people too.
 
I helped some friends with their intro psych homework once or twice! I'm an expert right?
 
3:02 PM
And people are animals.
 
user19161
Two humans are already so different. How can we then compare an animal to a human?
 
People are animals.
 
user19161
Yes I know.
 
They're reliable models for some things.
 
Besides, I don't know many people who are willing to have ports put in their skulls.
 
3:03 PM
@aediaλ at least, if not a guru!
 
user19161
It depends on what we take reliable to mean axiomatically.
 
@Kitḫ probably not enough to provide conclusive evidence...
 
@Kitḫ Or deliberately be bred to get cancer!
 
user19161
There is a story supposedly true of a man who can live without food and drink.
 
I wonder how many people are willing to have ports put into their skulls
 
3:04 PM
And anyway, nagging is removed to decrease behavior, so I think it would be negative punishment.
Oh wait, no.
 
@MattЭллен I only want that if something really cool is coming in, like videogames
 
user19161
Of course, it is easier to believe that there are people who can go without sleep.
 
You're right @aedia, nagging is added to decrease behavior.
@aediaλ I have a whole novel plot worked up around that notion.
 
what about "do the washing up, do the washing up, do the washing up, do the washing up, do the washing up, do the washing up"? that seems added to increase (washing up) behaviour
 
That's positive reinforcement then.
 
user19161
3:06 PM
@MattЭллен I am starting to get worried if you always say that.
 
@Kitḫ but it's the stopping of the nagging that is the reinforcer
 
giggles Is washing up dishes or laundry?
You rightponders are funny.
 
Oh my brain is tired. I need some help thinking.
 
user19161
@aediaλ It could simply be showering.
 
@aediaλ :D it's dishes!
 
user19161
3:08 PM
@MattЭллен Or the body.
 
user19161
@Kitḫ You need to leave chat to focus and then get some coffee.
 
Coffee! Great idea!
 
user19161
@kit Your words inspired me to be a Belieber again.
 
@JasperLoy "The Washing up" is always dishes. You can say "I'm going to wash up" meaning yourself, but that's not the same. "The washing up" is a noun phrase
 
@JasperLoy Maybe you should have some coffee too then.
 
3:10 PM
@MattЭллен I thought so, but I wasn't sure! I say "do the dishes" or "wash the dishes" or actually, yesterday, our dishwasher wrote a sticky note uhh all by itself that said it was lonely and needed attention.
 
@aediaλ Laundry is just "The washing", no up :)
 
@MattЭллен I knew there was a different word for that too! It's "the wash" for me.
 
@aediaλ poor thing
 
user19161
How long have you gone without showering? I have only done three days.
 
user19161
That was during some camp.
 
3:13 PM
> In operant conditioning the reinforcer is the event that occurs after the operant behaviour, making it more likely to occur again, and which may either be positive or negative.
Now I'm not sure about nagging at all.
stupid books
 
user19161
@MattЭллен Books and journals are not necessarily more accurate than what is published on the internet.
 
user19161
So take everything you read with a pinch of salt.
 
Yes. I am quite confused about nagging now.
 
doesn't all this depend on what the definition of "the behaviour" is, and whether the subject enjoys or doesn't enjoy the thing that is added or removed?
 
@MattЭллен after? Does it have to be after? That doesn't make sense for all negative reinforcement, certainly.
The example wiki gave was about turning off distracting music to concentrate
 
3:18 PM
Yes, it is a response to the removal or addition of the stimulus.
 
@aediaλ that's the whole thing, with operant conditioning - you do the thing you get a reward
 
Or you don't do the thing and you get a reward.
Or you do the thing and you get punished.
 
@MattЭллен so if you don't do the dishes, and you get nagged, then do the dishes, you are rewarded with removal of nagging?
 
exactly
 
Nagging is the stimulus, doing the dishes is the behavior.
 
3:20 PM
I think the removal makes it negative
 
I mean, "doing a thing" and "not doing a thing" depends on what "a thing" is, "do the dishes" and "stop not doing the dishes" are both things you can do
 
user19161
@mrs So you are back from your vacation at last!
 
@JasperLoy I was back Wednesday, I guess
but yesterday I had off again.
 
@MattЭллен Removing the stimulus causes the behavior to increase?
 
@Kitḫ yeah
but does the removal of nagging make doing the dishes more likely to occur again?
 
3:21 PM
I'm thinking the presence of nagging increases the behavior.
 
that's the classical conditioning way of looking at it?
 
Ach. If only there were an OperantConditioning.SE.
 
user19161
It will be psychology SE.
 
Suppose you are hitting me with a trout, and you stop for a moment. I don't do the dishes, so you resume hitting me with the trout. Eventually I figure out that I should do the dishes when the fish-slapping stops... am I rewarded by no more fish-slapping? Is what I learn that next time you hit me with the trout I should do the dishes the first time it stops?
 
3:23 PM
or a cognitive science SE <hint hint>
 
Maybe my example is too complicated... arrgh.
I think I confused myself.
 
user19161
@MattЭллен You can propose.
 
user19161
@aediaλ We do that all the time.
 
186
Cognitive Sciences

Proposed Q&A site for practitioners and research professionals of the cognitive sciences

Currently in commitment.

 
user19161
@MattЭллен Good thinking!
 
3:24 PM
:D
 
On the OC.SE site, we could have a system that rewarded users when they engaged in good behaviors and punished them when they engaged in poor behaviors. We could call them "upvotes" and "downvotes."
Or perhaps "dishes" and "fish."
 
user19161
Dishes and fishes sounds better.
 
user19161
Fish can be pluralised as fishes too.
 
@JasperLoy I disagree.
 
@Kitḫ LOL
 
3:25 PM
@Kitḫ OMGs this entire SE system is one big human experiment in operant conditioning!
 
that it is, Mr. S
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Shush, do you want the other inmates to start getting uppity?
 
user19161
@MrShinyandNew安宇 I hypothesise that many SE users keep returning because the upvotes become a kind of addiction to the brain.
 
People like their rewards, it's true.
 
@JasperLoy Oh, that's totally true. I care a lot about certain accounts where I have the potential to reach 3k or 6k or 10k, but after reaching a milestone like that I almost completely stop caring.
 
3:28 PM
A token economy is a system of behavior modification based on the systematic positive reinforcement of target behavior. The reinforcers are symbols or tokens that can be exchanged for other reinforcers. Token economy is based on the principles of operant conditioning and can be situated within applied behavior analysis (behaviorism). Token economies are applied with children and adults. Basic requirements Three requirements are basic for a token economy. Tokens Tokens have to be used as reinforcers. A token is an object or symbol that can be exchanged for material reinforcers, servi...
 
and other accts, where I will never reach 3k, I don't care at all.
 
Yay @aedia!
 
> Application of a token economy to adults sometimes triggers client resistance.[7] People can feel to be forced. Badly designed token economies even can induce aggression.
 
And that's why you offer praise to get people to like you.
 
Haha.
 
3:29 PM
@Kitḫ That's good advice, Kit!
 
Thanks, @MrShiny. You are such an astute observer!
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 that's a great example, Mr. Shiny and New!
jinx
 
user19161
I now feel like using Mrs Hiny instead.
 
I know it wasn't my jinx but I couldn't resist.
 
Love it! Stealing it!
 
user19161
3:31 PM
Pepsi tastes better to me.
 
What am I doing? I can't join to a stored procedure...
Wait. Or can I? Help! My brain is not working!
 
no, you cannot
 
Thank you!
 
user19161
@Kitḫ You need coffee as mentioned.
 
no probs :)
 
3:32 PM
I should not be coding in this state.
 
user19161
Coffee is a brewed beverage with a dark, acidic flavor prepared from the roasted seeds of the coffee plant, colloquially called coffee beans. The beans are found in coffee cherries, which grow on trees cultivated in over 70 countries, primarily in equatorial Latin America, Southeast Asia, South Asia and Africa. Green (unroasted) coffee is one of the most traded agricultural commodities in the world. Coffee can have a stimulating effect on humans due to its caffeine content. It is one of the most-consumed beverages in the world. Coffee has played a crucial role in many societies. The ...
 
I wish you could join to a stored procedure, it would make things easier
 
I almost deleted a whole recordset by accident.
 
@Kitḫ Sure you can. Just refab the conjoobulator, then mungle the fizzbrumbles into the itzgibbits!
 
3:33 PM
@aediaλ Of course. An inline table function with a user-defined table-type. Why didn't I think of that in the first place?
Now, to write it...
 
user19161
@MattЭллен The fly may enter your mouth if you open it this big.
 
:| I do not want Jeff Goldblum in my mouth. again.
 
@Kitḫ That sounds awesome to a programmer, but would probably make all DBAs in a 10 mile radius burst into flames, or tears, anyway
 
But it's Jeff Goldblum.
 
user19161
3:35 PM
@MattЭллен Once a bee got stuck between my teeth.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Why? Is my turn undead that powerful?
 
user19161
It tasted a little sweet from the honey I guess.
 
@Kitḫ I just think that returning a table from a function call such that it is used in a join would probably impact performance a bit, unless all the tables are small.
 
Sounds yummy
did it sting you?
 
user19161
@MattЭллен Nope. Are you at home now?
 
3:37 PM
yes
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm. I don't think I can figure out how else to do it.
I really shouldn't be coding today.
Holla at you @Cerb!
 
user19161
@Kitḫ Have a break. Have a Kit Kat!
 
Hoi!
 
Polloi!
 
Hey that ain't Dutch.
 
3:39 PM
Sorry. Ananas!
 
you're clearly not a member, then, Cerb.
 
Better.
 
user19161
@Cerberus I feel better now. Kit's words inspired me.
 
Though I prefer other fruits.
@JasperLoy Oh, good!
 
@Cerberus Tomato!
 
3:40 PM
@MattЭллен Thanks! Neither are you, if I may say so.
 
@Cerberus Apparently "Coffee!" is inspiring.
 
@aediaλ Better, but...does that count?
 
@Cerberus Well, this is true!
 
@Kitḫ Hmm you people are weird.
Indeed.
 
@Kitḫ Well, it may be the best solution. But it might not be a good solution. I don't know your DB or your data so I can't say. But that sort of contraption sets off little alarm bells in my head. They could be false alarms.
 
3:42 PM
If only I were born to bluer blood
 
@Cerberus The short answer is yes
 
user19161
2 hours ago, by Kitḫ
Telling you to be a Bielber.
 
@Cerberus The long answer is a lot of vegetables are actually fruits, but it depends whether you want to go scientific, culinary, or legal
The noun vegetable usually means an edible plant or part of a plant other than a sweet fruit or seed. This typically means the leaf, stem, or root of a plant. However, the word is not scientific, and its meaning is largely based on culinary and cultural tradition. Therefore, the application of the word is somewhat arbitrary and subjective. For example, some people consider mushrooms to be vegetables even though they are not plants, "Mushrooms" classified under "VEGETABLES". In [http://www.cooks.com/rec/ch/vegetables.html Suggestions - Vegetables] at Cooks.com. Accessed on 2009-06-24...
> The question of whether the tomato is a fruit or a vegetable found its way into the United States Supreme Court in 1893. The court ruled unanimously in Nix v. Hedden that a tomato is correctly identified as, and thus taxed as, a vegetable, for the purposes of the Tariff of 1883 on imported produce. The court did acknowledge, however, that, botanically speaking, a tomato is a fruit.[7]
 
Right.
Then I agree.
 
user19161
@aediaλ Yesterday you are a nurse, today you are a nutritionist.
 
3:44 PM
The culinary sense is usually most relevant.
 
@Cerberus Yeah I think so too. I usually think of tomatoes as more vegetable-y, and avocadoes as more fat/protein/nut-y, for example (I wouldn't put them in a milkshake).
@JasperLoy I just like food!
 
Yeah I treat avocadi as vegetables too.
To me, all that matters is how sweet they taste.
Sweet = fruit.
Less sweet = vegetable.
 
Mmm. Fresh pineapple.
 
@Cerberus what about grapefruit
or lemon
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm.
 
3:52 PM
or corn
 
To me all that matter is if they're the seed bearing part of the plant.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, running through the calculations, it's not going to work anyway, I don't think.
 
I think grapefruit is still sweet enough.
But lemon isn't.
 
@MattЭллен Damn sniggety! high fives
@Cerberus So lemons are vegetables?
 
high fives
 
3:54 PM
I guess lemons are a bit of an exception, based on their membership of the citrus family.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 — If all the DBAs in a ten-mile radius burst into flames, who would weep?
 
No, they are fruits to me, somehow.
 
Also, anyone off the top of their head remember what five-petaled flower indicates?
 
Huh?
Should it indicate something special?
 
@Robusto the DBAs' mothers?
 
3:55 PM
@Cerberus I think it means it is a dicot or a monocot, but I can't remember which or if that's even right.
Except that peanuts are dicots.
 
Oh, no idea.
I only took two years of biology.
 
@Robusto the developers, who can no longer get ANY changes made to the databases, whereas before there was at least HOPE
 
It doesn't matter. I am essentially the DBA for this project anyway.
 
Woohoo! new avatar :D
 
Ah, here we go. They are usually dicots if they have five petals.
@MattЭллен Oh dude.
I thought those were two pyramidal cells stained with luciferase.
 
3:59 PM
Congrats!
> Advanced persistent threat
I hate this term.
 
@MrShinyandNew安宇 — I'm amazed you still have hope that a DBA can help you. Your optimism is touching and admirable. And you must be relatively new to development. ^)^
 
Flashback, flashback!
 
So ugly.
 
luciferase? sounds like one devil of an enzyme
 

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