English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

3:00 PM

OK, OK, I'm working on it!

I think I have exhausted my references.

Anonymous

Hello

Matt Эллен

hello @Anonymous

are you legion?

Anonymous

I have a question about English but I think it cannot ask on the website. :)

Matt Эллен

well, we might be able to help

Anonymous

I am not legion :)

Matt Эллен

3:03 PM

phew!

what's your question?

Anonymous

I want to learn Conversational English. I have learned with 2 teachers. First teacher give me an articles and when I read it he will tell me how to pronounce each sentence when I say it wrong.

the second teacher give me a list of word then teach me how to pronounce each word.

I don't know which one is better :)

Matt Эллен

for conversation? Well, I don't know. Neither seem appropriate for conversation, since neither involve conversation

JSBᾶngs

both have value, but i would start with single words

Matt Эллен

you get good at conversations by having them

JSBᾶngs

if you have problems with pronunciation, then first begin by getting the individual words right, then concentrate on sentence-level problems

but this depends (a lot) on what your actual difficulties are

Matt Эллен

3:06 PM

but reading articles is good for reading comprehension.

and as JSBangs says, learning to pronounce individual words is of course important

Anonymous

It sounds like the second teacher is better for me. She also suggest me to keep talking with her in the class too.

I will go for the second teacher. Her rate is also cheaper :)

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Is @Cerberus around? We are in dire need of any and all firepower we can get...

Matt Эллен

he's answering a question, @RegDwight

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Wow. How dare he.

Anonymous

Thank you for all of answer :)

Matt Эллен

3:11 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 He seems to think he has something to contribute!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Umpossible.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Hi!

Matt Эллен

@Anonymous no probs, hope your teacher is a good one :)

RegDwight Ѭſ道

What is this, a Q&A site???????

Cerberus

OK shifting priorities as needed...

Anonymous

3:12 PM

@RegDwight can I ask you why you use "how dare he" not "how dare is he" or "how dare he is"?

Cerberus

Dare is a verb.

Anonymous

Ahh, I see :)

Thank you!

Cerberus

"How dare he" is the same construction as "how is she?" or "how can they?".

Matt Эллен

would it be grammatical to say "how work they?"

Cerberus

Well, "work" is not an auxiliary verb.

So it would be very old fashioned, no?

Matt Эллен

3:14 PM

I see

so dare is an auxiliary verb?

Cerberus

Yes, or it used to be.

He dared not call her.

*he didn't dare to call her

Matt Эллен

Interesting. Thanks :)

Cerberus

The latter sound probably less idiomatic but more modern?

NP!

aedia λ

Hi!

Happy New Year!

Cerberus

Hi!

Matt Эллен

3:16 PM

@Cerberus Yes

Cerberus

You too!

Matt Эллен

@aediaλ happy Neu Yar!

aedia λ

Did y'all have fun celebrations?

Matt Эллен

Oh yes! Had a night in with some friends. You?

Cerberus

@Reg: I did my best, but it wasn't much. Those Refresh guys usually beat me.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

3:20 PM

Okay.

aedia λ

@MattЭллен Stayed up exceedingly late playing board games with some friends. It was great.

user19161

@aediaλ Happy New Year! May all your wishes come true in Unicornland!

Matt Эллен

@aediaλ We played charades and Articulate and drank into the wee hours :)

user19161

@MattЭллен I walked in my favourite shopping centre until the next morning.

aedia λ

@MattЭллен Ah, that sounds fun (I've never played Articulate)! I was visiting my friends who are into a variety of games, some more complicated, though they do play a lot of word and party games when we have a larger crowd. I'm trying to think what we played... I think just Dominion, Carcassonne, Citadels, and this Tetris Link game.

Matt Эллен

3:28 PM

@JasperLoy sounds peaceful

aedia λ

Citadels was totally new to me as well and it was relatively quick and simple to learn, but a ton of fun because half the strategy is bluffing/guessing what other people are going to do.

@JasperLoy Happy New Year!

Matt Эллен

Tetris Link sounds fun :D

aedia λ

It goes really fast but it was fun. It's a bit like Blockus.

Matt Эллен

@aediaλ sounds competitive :)

user19161

Tetris was the comp game I played the most even though I played almost none.

aedia λ

3:30 PM

Citadels (card game)

Citadels is a German-style card game, designed by Bruno Faidutti and originally published in French as Citadelles in 2000, and later in German as Ohne Furcht und Adel, which means "Without Fear or Nobility." Citadels was a finalist for the 2000 Spiel des Jahres award. The Dutch version, Machiavelli, won the Dutch game prize (Nederlandse spellenprijs) in 2001. Gameplay Each player receives two "gold counters" and four "district cards". The eldest player receives the "king marker." Play now proceeds as follows: The "character cards" are shuffled, and some are set aside (the number of c...

Wikipedia actually has descriptions of the character cards

user19161

I always tried to create a vertical bar gap and wait for the vertical bar to come to score maximum.

aedia λ

My friends had the expansion so we swapped in some of those on subsequent playthroughs, and it gets really cutthroat when you're trying to figure out how to avoid getting Witched or Thieved or lose your gold to the Abbot :)

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy Tetris is the best game

aedia λ

Indeed.

user19161

Unicorn is the best creature.

Matt Эллен

3:32 PM

@aediaλ gah! those dastardly Abbots

user19161

-2

Q: Formal letter of funding [delete]

to be deleted please to be deleted please to be deleted please

Matt Эллен

lol

user19161

I commented that he could just delete it himself.

Matt Эллен

I'm tempted to vote to reopen :D

just for silliness

user19161

@MattЭллен Did you upvote my comment? And I am feeling a bit upset now, maybe you know why, but nvm.

Matt Эллен

3:35 PM

I did up vote it

user19161

@MattЭллен They should really change the vote to delete to simple delete.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy yes, it can't be that hard to do

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Okay I have a preliminary answer in place.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus ace. I'll take a look :)

Cerberus

0

A: -ness suffix etymology

This suffix is widespread among the Germanic languages, though it is no longer productive in all: English -ness (Old English -nes(s), -nis(s), -nys(s)) Dutch -nis (Old Dutch -nussi, -nisse, -nesse) German -nis (Old High German -nissi, -nessi, -nassi, -nussi) Gothic -nassus There is no consens...

user19161

3:37 PM

@Cerberus Plus one for you. Happy New Year!

Cerberus

Yay!

user19161

@Cerberus You should not say that. Instead you should plus me too.

Cerberus

Plus for you!

Matt Эллен

Very good!

user19161

@Cerberus Where?

user19161

3:40 PM

You did not plus me at all.

Cerberus

Yay!

user19161

Nuts.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Eh voting is not about doing reciprocal favours.

I didn't post my answer here for that reason: it was just to appease Matt.

user19161

@Cerberus Sure, but you said plus for you, which should not have been said.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus and it has :D

Cerberus

3:42 PM

@JasperLoy A personal plus, not a voting plus.

@MattЭллен Yay!

I hope -tu- is related to Latin -tus and/or -tas, but I had to return my Latin etymological dictionaries to the library.

Matt Эллен

:(

user19161

@MattЭллен I need 20 more points to 14k. I think I will retire at that.

Matt Эллен

14K? You'd only be 6k from 20k! you should aim for the stars

user19161

@MattЭллен No, and I will take a few days to get over the upset too...

Matt Эллен

Well, just step back and think it over. You don't have to be upset about it

Cerberus

3:46 PM

What, upset? About what?

user19161

@MattЭллен Just think about it, you should know why.

user19161

@Cerberus Nvm, it's between me and mattie.

Cerberus

Is it about you-know?

user19161

@Cerberus Nvm.

Matt Эллен

honestly you worry too much

user19161

3:48 PM

@MattЭллен I just feel a little betrayed.

Matt Эллен

you were egging her on

if you don't want someone to talk about something, don't talk to them about it

user19161

@MattЭллен No I was just talking.

Cerberus

Oh, what did you remove? I didn't see it...

Matt Эллен

I know you want to keep things anonymous, but what you had said had pretty much removed any sort of anonymity in all but name

user19161

@MattЭллен Nvm, let's talk about food.

Matt Эллен

3:52 PM

:D

it's like being in secondary school, trying to keep secrets

lol

user19161

@Cerberus Nvm, let's talk about food.

Cerberus

eating freshly baked bread

user19161

Why is there so much invisible ink?

Cerberus

It's fun.

And invisible.

Possibly.

But he has no desire to.

Matt Эллен

true

I think I'm having pizza tonight

user19161

3:56 PM

6

Q: Is it wrong to pronounce "pizza" as "peedtza"?

I was extremely mocked by colleagues (good humor) when I said the word "pizza" in the middle of the conversation. Given my accent, the way I pronounced it was closer to "peedtza", with a slight hint of that "d" that I never noticed myself until they brought it up. They were saying it should...

pronunciation

user19161

Speaking of invisible ink, there a few movies where invisible ink is used.

Matt Эллен

I don't think I add a d in when I say pizza, I think I say peetza

user19161

That is the reason it is best to use IPA to remove any ambiguity.

Matt Эллен

yes, I'm not good at remembering which IPA symbol means what

user19161

I am not good at deciphering systems other than IPA.

user19161

4:03 PM

@cerb Do you also read IPA for all the other languages you know?

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Ehh my knowledge of IPA is erratic.

I know it best for English.

user19161

@Cerberus Same.

Cerberus

Wai?

user19161

@Cerberus Nothing.

Cerberus

Hmm OK.

The more exotic the sound, the harder.

Clicks are hard.

user19161

4:06 PM

@Cerberus How did you learn cooking? Trial and error?

Matt Эллен

arg! it all went wrong and I had to delete everything

user19161

@MattЭллен What?

Matt Эллен

Software issues

3 people working on the same project - we had a merge issue

it should be alright now though

user19161

It's amazing how I can get a paperback international edition of a textbook for twenty dollars while the hardback costs two hundred.

Matt Эллен

yeah, hardback are sillily expensive

user19161

4:13 PM

And sometimes hardbacks are not bound properly either.

user19161

Paperbacks can fall apart but so can hardbacks.

Matt Эллен

I've not had that so far, for hardbacks, thankfully

Kitḫ

@JSB You here?

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Yeah, and recipes, and aping other people. You should try it too: it can be easy and fun!

Hey Kitty.

Kitḫ

> JS Bangs's Uncaged Blood is his first foray into novella-length writing, but his solid writing style carries through to this longer format nicely. Horror-themed without being horrific, intriguing, and well-paced, this novella provides a fresh take in a classic genre.

> This story weaves elements of the supernatural into a mystery set in a very authentic feeling prison, and while I felt the story was very good with excellent timing that brings the reader through the dramatic conclusion with just the right amount of tension and excitement, a big part of me wishes that the story were longer.

> This is a story that I find myself continuing to ponder, and I hope that it is not the last we see of JS Bangs's characters. I recommend it to all my friends who are fans of Neil Gaiman, and I look forward to more work from this writer.

@JSB I submitted this review for your Kindle book ^

@Cerberus Hi @Cerb!

I got a ginger grater for Christmas.

I have used it for garlic twice already.

Cerberus

4:18 PM

Yay!

You never used to grate your garlic?

Kitḫ

Not until you suggested it.

I've never really had a grater.

But also, I have a garlic press.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Huh??

Cheese? Lemon zest?

Kitḫ

Nope.

Cerberus

Nutmeg?

Kitḫ

I can dice really fine.

Cerberus

4:19 PM

But but...

Hmm.

Kitḫ

Also, I have a mortar and pestle.

Cerberus

Right, M&P can be great.

I should buy me some.

But lemon zest must be an awful chore with dicing and crushing, isn't it?

Kitḫ

I don't zest much.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Kitḫ

Not a fan of meringue, remember?

Cerberus

4:22 PM

So how do you like the garlic grating?

Kitḫ

Oh, of course you don't.

:P

@Cerberus I like it. It's grate.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I remember; but I don't use it for that. Mostly with pastas.

@Kitḫ Haha yay!

Kitḫ

Really? Lemon zest with pasta?

Blech.

Cerberus

No it's great.

Pasta, egg, parmesan, pepper, lemon zest, rucola, courgette.

Kitḫ

What else do you put on it?

Cerberus

4:23 PM

That is a nice, quick, delicious basic pasta.

Kitḫ

What's rucola?

Sounds kind of Caesar dressing-ish.

Cerberus

Bitter lettuce-like herb.

@Kitḫ Not, it is all heated like carbonara.

Kitḫ

I actually do like that, except for the anchovies.

Cerberus

I like CS too, I think.

Kitḫ

Gotta go to lunch. Later!

Cerberus

4:25 PM

Oh, and courgette, shouldn't forget that.

OK bye!

JSBᾶngs

5:09 PM

@Kitḫ thanks!

Kitḫ

5:30 PM

@JSBᾶngs I also splashed you across my FB page, in the hopes of creating a meme.

JSBᾶngs

@Kitḫ wow, thanks. that'll be great.

memedom, here i come!

Kitḫ

Well, don't get too excited. I'm not actually that popular on FB.

JSBᾶngs

aw, well

seems like time for lunch

Cerberus

Hi!

And bye!

If you want to participate in a riddle about a dead naked man with a broken match in his hand, come to the Linguistics room.

Unless you already know it.

Kitḫ

Oh, oh!

Cerberus

5:39 PM

lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

General discussion for linguistics.stackexchange.com

1

LucasTizma

7:17 PM

"What I can do is explain what should have happened, but didn't." <--- my gut tells me that that comma is misused. Is it?

If so, is it ever correct to use a comma before a dependent clause, if only to help break the thought apart more clearly? (Or am I making no sense whatsoever?)

Cerberus

You are making sense.

I think most style books would say: normally don't use a comma there, but use one if it greatly helps easy comprehension.

One thing: the "but" clause is not a dependent clause, but that doesn't really matter.

LucasTizma

Oh? What is it?

Sorry, I'm trying to go off my rudimentary 10th grade English grammar knowledge. :)

Mahnax

Hi kids and dog.

Cerberus

Actually, it is not a clause at all: it is like "Mary" in "Thomas and Mary are good children".

Hi!

Mahnax

@LucasTizma I've not seen you here before.

Cerberus

7:28 PM

Or maybe it is a clause.

Arg!

Now I am confused.

It's complicated.

LucasTizma

:)

Well, I should be here more often. I love EL&U.

Mahnax

The sentence doesn't make too much sense to me, it mixes tenses.

LucasTizma

Hm. How would you rewrite it?

Mahnax

Well, what are you trying to say? Is the event occurring right now, or did it occur in the past?

LucasTizma

In the past.

Mahnax

7:32 PM

"What I could have done is explain what should have happened, but [I?] didn't."

LucasTizma

Oh no, sorry. I think you misunderstood. "I can explain (now) what didn't happen (in the past), but what should have happened."

Maybe that sentence is too vague.

Mahnax

Oh! In that case, are you refusing to say what should have happened? Or just not saying?

Cerberus

@Mahnax It sounds fine to me!

Mahnax

You could change the didn't to can't or won't.

Cerberus

And the comma is fine too.

@Mahnax Huh? No!

I really don't see any problem here.

Mahnax

7:34 PM

@Cerberus Okay, maybe I am really missing what he's trying to say then.

LucasTizma

I think it's not clear based on what I wrote. :-\

Mahnax

Oh!!! I understand now!

slaps self

LucasTizma

Here's the actual sentence: "What I can do is explain which app SHOULD have exemplified the best of my work, but didn't."

Mahnax

The sentence is totally fine.

Cerberus

Yay!

And the comma too, don't you agree?

Mahnax

7:36 PM

Yeah, the comma is good.

Cerberus

If the second part is short, a comma is possible, and probably advisable.

Mahnax

I would almost say it's necessary.

LucasTizma

Interesting.

Yeah, that's what my gut told me, but my gut isn't the most intelligent entity. :)

Mahnax

Nah, you might want to try using your brain or something.

:D

LucasTizma

Pssh. I keep trying. It's not working out so well!

Mahnax

7:38 PM

Hmm, are you in grade 10, or did you drop out?

LucasTizma

Ha ha. No, I'm 26, post-college. :)

10th grade English just stood out because I had such a good teacher.

Mahnax

@LucasTizma Haha, okay.

What did you study in college?

LucasTizma

Computer Science

Mahnax

Ooh, cool.

Maybe yummy wasn't the best word to put there.

LucasTizma

Ha ha.

I dunno. Maybe?

Mahnax

7:41 PM

Heh. It doesn't fit. I like my Computing Science class, but I wish my teacher wasn't such a bore.

LucasTizma

CS teachers tend to be rather boring...

In the worst case, they can't fathom how other people can't be at their same level of technical understanding.

Which is annoying.

Mahnax

I can't fathom how he thinks that four months of straight HTML will interest anyone whatsoever.

Not even HTML5, just boring crap.

LucasTizma

:) Yeah, I'm not sure. HTML was my first "language", but it's certainly not at the heart of CS.

I'm an iOS app developer, and even I still sit at the edges of TRUE Computer Science.

JSBᾶngs

@Mahnax really, essential HTML should be covered in four hours

Mahnax

@JSBᾶngs I know. I have legitimately learned nothing from that 4 months.

JSBᾶngs

7:44 PM

@Mahnax that's pretty nuts

Mahnax

@JSBᾶngs Well, I was fairly well-versed in HTML before the class. Most people weren't though.

JSBᾶngs

yeah, really, but it shouldn't take FOUR MONTHS to cover html

Mahnax

Certainly not. He put some CSS in there too, but the majority of time was spent on HTML.

LucasTizma

If you could recommend a single book or resource to spruce up on formal English usage, what would it be?

I'm tired of having these vague feelings that what I'm doing is right or wrong. I'd like to just BE right or wrong for a change. :)

Mahnax

Strunk & White's Elements of Style.

waits for thwacking....

LucasTizma

7:50 PM

Elements of Style, eh?

Mahnax

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NEVER.

LucasTizma

:O

Mahnax

It was a joke, it's generally considered a book full of awful advice written by two unqualified persons.

LucasTizma

Oh. Ha ha.

WELL, I'm glad I didn't jump on that suggestion. :)

I guess a resource on writing style AND grammar would be ideal. Or one on each of these separately.

Though I'm a technical guy, I've been blogging a lot more these days, and I'd like to hone my skills.

Cerberus

I recommend Fowler.

Burchfield's Fowler's Modern English Usage.

Published this century, I think.

LucasTizma

7:56 PM

That's always helpful. :)

Cerberus

It can be a tad old-fashioned, but I feel that is only appropriate if you want to write formal English.

Of course it is British.

LucasTizma

Ah I see.

Well, I wonder if an American English book would be more appropriate, unless "formal English" connotes British English. :)

Mahnax

British English always sounds more formal to Americans, I suppose.

LucasTizma

Yes, it does.

lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…