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23:01
@JeroenVannevel people who want a job
companies don't tend to switch around as much as individuals do
Plus, some frameworks - Angular - have a high learning curve
I implore you to not try and learn those 'on the job', because I'm working with someone who is doing that now and it's awful
And angular has actually been around for a while now.
My wireless headset just managed to lock up my entire PC because I checked the volume slider.
WTF
Woah.
Alternatively, learn everything on the job but do it in a way that makes your coworkers always think you know everything about everything.
Just because I don't know a particular platform or language doesn't mean I can't teach coworkers who write code for that platform or language a thing or two.
2
Update: crashed my pc.
By all means, understand a language well enough to adapt to anything
23:11
0
Q: Build a unique array of db fields

MarkThis is stripped down from a project I'm working on: let userFields = { id: { dbFields: 'id', }, email: { dbFields: 'email', }, first_name: { dbFields: 'first_name', }, last_name: { dbFields: 'last_name', }, name: { dbFi...

but don't go into a job not knowing absolutely nothing about a platform when then job spec says it under the presumption that "I'll just learn it on the job". It sucks for everyone involved, including coworkers
i.e, don't know nothing about Angular if your job spec says you're doing Angular just because you know a bit of javascript :P
Nah. Just hire learners.
@DanPantry Well, that was me with C#
@nhgrif We have a 'learner' on a new project right now that has crumbled before.
That's not a learner then.
23:13
He gets the job done, but it's done horrifically and it's awful to work with. In addition, a lot of my resource is taken off of my work instructing him on how to do it.
A learner doesn't crumble projects.
No no, I don't mean that, I mean it's a project that failed bfeore that we were hired to re-do.
Because as a start, 98% of the difference between languages is syntax.
Languages is never the problem
I know several languages and I can switch between them with ease
The issue is libraries
and / or frameworks
If you are instructing someone how to do something, you're not instructing a learner.
23:15
I know Java but I'm not about to jump into using jetty under the presumption I can 'just learn it' on the job
Zak
Zak
Ouch. There's a 90-minute window between Asking questions? That seems a bit steep.
I think it depends on the context
@Zak No... it seems pretty lenient.
I just put a bounty on this:
2
Q: Profiles with profiling checkboxes

realisationI have this HTML down below that creates a list with two columns, the left one containing profile information, and the right one containing checkboxes of the user feedback in a horizontal list. The list behaves so that when the element of the questionAnswer array is true, there is a font-awesome...

Zak
Zak
specifically: Whether the company is aware of your lack of experience before they hire you
@nhgrif I don't doubt that these learners exist, but I personally haven't seen one.
Our company does hire cultural fits and train them up. I do like this.
Better to have a cultural fit that doesn't know as much than someone who knows it all but isnt' a cultural fit
23:16
Our company hires cultural fits who are learners.
But, at the same time, not everyone is a learner :P
@Zak huh, never noticed that.
We don't hire people who are experts if we don't think they are good learners.
Fair enough
Zak
Zak
There is definitely a difference between people who have learnt a lot, and learners :)
23:17
Well said
In fact, we turned down a guy who has at least twice as much iOS experience as me.
I try and learn everything
at least in my language
Whew.
I'd like to go into contracting or freelancing at some point
so I'd like to be on top of the game just in case
He would've been good enough to manage to do work for our clients, but given how long he had been programming, and having only known Objective-C, HTML, and CSS, plus signs from the interview, it was pretty clear he wasn't a learner.
23:19
See I've always worried that putting many skills on my CV shows that I'm a jack of all trades and not good at any one particular thing
Which might hinder me
Would you say that's a mistake?
Zak
Zak
@nhgrif Out of curiosity, how would you define a learner? Is it enough for somebody to want to learn more, or does there have to be more to it?
yeah
"Jack of all trades, master of none, but better yet than a master of one." That was the original saying.
0
Q: Python tokenizer

Gabriel GarciaI wrote a tokenizer/lexer (difference?) for Python in Haskell: this is my code on GitHub. I already tested it out with some of CPython's standard library scripts, and it doesn't fail. However, it probably outputs non-conforming output. But I don't care about this right now. What I'm looking for...

@DanPantry Maybe relevant to your interests.
23:20
The second half of it has been lost throughout the years.
@nhgrif How do you define a learner?
Zak
Zak
I'm going to have to remember that :)
hang on, so many questions..
Derp
while I was looking for the link someone already asked, haha.
@Legato thanks. I've gone on freelancer.com before, but - without being some kind of -ist - it appears to be filled with people who do it full time and can do it cheaply and offshore so its dififcult to get my foot in the door.
23:21
@DanPantry Yes, I think it's a mistake. If you are a master of some domain areas, your resume should reflect that. If you also are familiar with several areas (that are relevant to your field), your resume should also reflect that.
Adding that you are familiar with like 10 programming languages demonstrates your ability to learn new tools, and hopefully your willingness to use the right tool for the job rather than just the tool you're most comfortable with.
At my last interview (for my current company), I explained how I learned Powershell.
Zak
Zak
On the subject of resumes, this is BY FAR the best professional advice I've ever found on resumes (as well as just about everything else, somewhere on that site): manager-tools.com/2005/10/your-resume-stinks
Often times employers are willing to hire people who are excellent in one area, but also have novice experience in another. My employer hired me because I was adequate in C# and VB.NET, but also moderately experienced in SQL Servers and general Microsoft tools.
The need had arisen for which powershell was the best tool for the job, so I learned it and implemented the solution using the best tool.
> Purchase this item
@Zak Wanting to learn more is an important part, but you also have to be capable of learning more... and you have to actually be learning more. And you have to be capable of doing a lot of it on your own.
Zak
Zak
23:23
I should have said, there is stuff you can purcahse,
but the podcasts themselves are all free and they're full of great advice
Are there transcripts avaliable @Zak? I'm not deaf but I would rather read than listen/watch.
@nhgrif I've purposefully tried decimating any C# mentions on my CV.
Not because I suck at C# but because I don't want recruiters using grep-like tools to find C#.
Because I do not ever want to work with that damn language again lol
For example, recently one of our interns who is currently on a JavaScript project was talking to me. He said he didn't really care for web programming and was interested in getting into mobile development. So... I showed him a handful of Swift tutorials. He's been working through them and teaching himself Swift. He's not in a college class. And even though I told him he was more than welcome to ask me if he needed any help, he hasn't so far.
Zak
Zak
I don't know. Quite possibly, but they'd definitely be a thing you had to purchase.
And I sit behind him, and I can see that he's been working on Swift when he has the chances.
@nhgrif I remember in my old place (I was a junior and paid less), I would be crucified for doing anything other than C# in my job
23:26
@nhgrif I've always wanted to get into iOS (and mobile app development in general) but haven't an Apple product (or the finances to get one).
So, I stick to my Microsoft stuff. :)
IN fact I remember being told off for learning Ruby to do some small programs to help with automating our system while we had some downtime,.
@DanPantry I'd recommend keeping it on your resume, but just turn down any offers for C# positions.
Unfortunately it would appear C# and Java is all that's here
Cardiff is full of old(er) corporate bases and nothing greenfield. RIP
Because I'd argue that having a discussion about why you don't like C# and don't want to work with it during an interview will increase your chances of finding the right job.
I've been using Pluralsight lately to try and buff up my skills, though.
23:27
@nhgrif what do you mean by that?
This conversation you guys are having is why I love this place.
Because either the interviewer agrees with all the points you make about C#, and sees you'll get along perfectly, and you'll be a better fit (not just qualified, but actually a good fit)...
OR... the interviewer disagrees with all the points you make, and doesn't want to hire you.
But you probably weren't a good fit.
It's not just about finding the highest paid job.
It's about finding the place you want to work at.
2
Definitely. I don't care much for money
Those should be one statement so I can conserve stars...>.>
I wore jeans and a t-shirt into my last interview... my current job.
23:29
In my opinion I am on way too much now for my age.
As long as I can live and save, fine
Zak
Zak
@nhgrif I feel a lot like this in my current job. They hired me because they knew I was intelligent, creative and highly self-sufficient. They give me tings they would like to have and (more or less) leave me alone to figure out how to make it happen. I only started with VBA because I googled how to automate spreadsheets and that was what I found :)
Why? Because I don't want to work anywhere at which that atire wouldn't be acceptable.
@nhgrif I currently work in a shirt and trousers place. My boss is trying to force me to not wear my converse to work and instead wear office shoes.
Why? What's the point? what do what I have on my feet have to do with how I write code?
Exactly.
@DanPantry Bring steel-toed construction boots in.
Zak
Zak
23:30
I try to get better because I like learning and I want to be able to keep getting better
We only have two rules regarding dress code...
Found another bad question gem:
-1
Q: My computer upgraded and deleted all of my files

CamilleI NEEED MY FILES I AM A PHOTOGRAPHER AND WHEN I OPENED MY COMPUTER AN UPDATE HAD ALREADY STARTED WHEN IT WAS COMPLETED ALL OF MY PHOTOS AND FILES WERE GONE PLEASE I ABSOLUTELY NEED MY FILES HOW DO I GET THEM BACK

1. When a client is going to be in... don't come in with ratty tore up clothes or offensive clothes.
2. When the CEO is in, no open-toed shoes. Roller blades are okay though.
2
I have the luxury right now of a two month notice period, being on a decent chunk of money, and being able to look where to find a job. Unfortunately, my CV looks patchy due to the 1 - 1/2 year jobs i've had so I don't want to switch
@nhgrif We have the same #2, but not the same #1.
23:31
At the same time I'm able to shop around
@nhgrif :O Why the last?
We don't actually have that #1.
Which is nice.
In work, our outfits are determined by dept.
Zak
Zak
"Roller Blades are okay though" I love your workplace already :)
So my IAT department has to wear 'smart-casual' with office shoes.
23:32
And as far as clients are concerned, you only even have to abide by that rule if you're going to be on the floor the clients are on.
We don't invite clients to our workplace often because of the type of work we do.
But the infra department - which is in the same room, by the way - can wear coloured jeans and trainers (still have to wear a shirt ,though).
And even the open-toed rule isn't even a rule. It's just that the CEO complains about seeing people's toes... but no one has gotten in trouble for it..
How often is the CEO in? I like my sandals.
Our building is actually split in two sections, one of them is secured against 90% of our employees.
23:33
@Hosch250 Just wear socks with them. Simple :^)
The other is fairly open.
(Except you still need to be buzzed in.)
CEO works out of the Tennessee office. He's going to be in this week.
He's here like a couple of days a month.
Not too bad, I guess.
And he's totally cool.
our CEO works in our office, because our office is the head of operations for our company.
Every other office is a telemarketing office.
He's pretty awesome though. He looks like the king of norway (and acts as silly as him too). covered in tattoos, he's a nice bloke
23:34
At our company, the more promotions you get, the more people that you work for.
A promotion sort of means more people are over you now.
I'd rather be at the bottom then.
It seems safer politically.
A promotion means that you're now working for people to help them get their job done.
We aren't a large enough company to have those rules.
The entire IT department for the company I work for is 4 people.
it's not a rule... just the culture
Including me...lol
23:35
We don't really have promotions, as such. I don't see how promotions would fit into a development team though.
We have about 100 employees.
Youd have what, programmer and team lead?I guess?
We're about the same size, @EBrown
Well... it's like this...
Our most recent promotion...
@nhgrif Oh wow.
A developer got promoted to developer + head of hiring
23:36
You guys probably have more IT, though.
So in addition to being a developer with normal development work, he's also doing all of the interviews and such
Ugh. Drives me nuts. People wear jeans and tees all the time where I'm at now. You're a professional, dress like it.
yeah... we have a department of 12 people and a total of 4 programmers.
/end old crumudgeny rant
@RubberDuck We're allowed to wear jeans/tees at my work. :P
23:37
@RubberDuck I'm a professional, so I will act professional and do my job professionally.
I like that commit strip about born to code where the guy declines the promotion.
Hell, half the time our CEO wears jeans and a t-shirt.
Doing my job and how I act does not correlate with what I am wearing today.
Zak
Zak
This stuff is all fascinating. The only exposure I have to "corporate" IT is the week I got to spend in Blackrock's Risk & Analytics team in London
But it does @DanPantry. It does.
23:38
And I think suits are stupid. You can look professional with clean jeans and tees that aren't looking like a hard-times party.
@RubberDuck I feel more comfortable and relaxed in casual clothing.
When I am relaxed, I code better.
@Hosch250 I love wearing suits. But I agree with the second half of that statement. :)
I am more social.
That's the problem. The whole "comfortable and relaxed" workplace leads to comfortable and relaxed problems.
In fact, you can look pretty cruddy in a suit with sweat stains and the like...
23:39
I'd rather a comfortable and relaxed workplace, with comfortable and relaxed problems
@Hosch250 No sweat stains here. ;)
Zak
Zak
@DanPantry I'm only 21 so what do I know, BUT: I feel like part of your professional responsibility is to look professional. And what looks professional for your company is up to your company.
Than a workplace where people are constantly on edge because they have to wear 'professional' clothing.
You can @Hosch250 and I'd say that isn't professional either.
Same here.
23:39
Never worked at such a place.
@Zak I don't disobey my company, and I listen to them. But I don't see how what I wear correlates with my ability to do my job.
@RubberDuck What's a "casual and relaxed" problem?
@nhgrif No water in the water cooler.
Zak
Zak
it doesn't, implicitly, but it does determine the culture of your workplace, which influences everybody
If people are so interested in what I wear I would direct them to the nearest catwalk. I'm a programmer. I don't have to be in suit and tie because if I'm doing my job correctly, 99% of the organisation aren't going to even notice I'm there.
23:40
In my experience (and maybe it's just me) a professional attire brings a professional attitude along with it. When you look good, you feel good.
@RubberDuck and I feel like i 'look good' in a jeans and a shirt
@RubberDuck Completely agree with that, which is why I tend to wear button up dress-shirts and slacks to work.
More than I ever will in a shirt and tie
@nhgrif a serious lack of urgency in my experience.
What does urgency accomplish?
23:41
Bugs.
Haste makes waste.
Zak
Zak
Surely though, that also depends on your workplace culture though?
Exactly.
No. It accomplishes goals.
Where I work, we write good code, and we release it when it's good.
Rushed work doesn't accomplish goals
23:42
There are not this ridiculous deadlines.
You still take the time it takes to get it right.
Bah, you think I'm urgent about closing issues on GitHub?
I just like it.
@nhgrif That's how this place works as well. We (IT) tell the CEO when we'll be done with it, and if we hit a delay we inform him and the deadline is moved back.
On Monday, we might tell the client it will be done on Friday, but if it's not done on Friday, we tell them and we tell them why.
I'm not talking about ridiculous deadlines.
23:42
We don't have that, "must be done by 21 August" crap.
Everyone sets their own schedules.
I'm sure there are more useful ways to improve work ethic than altering uniform
We've never had a real deadline since I've been here, except ones set by government regulations.
Maybe there are, but it's effective.
We also have beer on tap Monday through Thursday after 3:16pm, and Friday after 2pm.
I'm going to put up with wearing a suit and tie as long as I put up with mandatory hidden discrimination training.
And that is 0 seconds.
We also only really hire people who are self-motivated though. Like... if you're slacking, you really won't last that long.
I see the point of view @RubberDuck. I think having shirt and tie provides a clear disconnect between work and home, and for some people that makes you focus more
Im not suggesting that you put up with it. I'm suggesting it alters your mindset if you do it willingly.
@Hosch250 I like wearing them, I feel really comfortable in a suit and tie.
23:45
But i think anyone who needs that disconnect is probably in the wrong employ
For me it definitely does help make that separation.
@RubberDuck Dressing up because you want to and because it makes you more productive is more than fine.
It tends to help me work better, too.
A company setting dress guidelines for software devs who will never interact in a public capacity for the company is absurd.
@RubberDuck I'm with you. I've saved up this summer to buy suits for interviews.
23:46
@nhgrif We only ever actually have dress requirements if someone from the government is coming in for inspection and they inform us ahead of time.
Maybe it's because I'm internal support and I directly interact with my customers.
99% of the time they don't inform us, though.
Making a distinction between work & home is important, and I can see how dressing differently can help you make that. I don't find that necessary though.
@RubberDuck I'm internal apps, but that means I interact with users through a helpdesk
@RubberDuck And presumably your customers dress in business attire
23:47
I may also be having a hard time adjusting to the lacidasical attitude where I'm at right now.
Zak
Zak
slight change of subject. Where do you all work? Country/generalish region
@Zak Detroit, MI, US.
Some of them @nhgrif. I will wear jeans & tee when I expect to be on the factory floor.
I've seen a lot of people who look like they are slacking being the most productive ones - they just know how to get things done.
23:48
Ohio at a prosthetics manufacturer.
Zak
Zak
I guess it also depends on how much you care what other people may or may not think about you based on your attire
@RubberDuck Where-at in Ohio? I am actually looking to move back down there.
Near Columbus. Looking for work? We're hiring.
@RubberDuck I probably will be in February, I hate this area as far as the city goes.
@RubberDuck You hiring interns?
23:49
And Michigan (and Detroit as well) have horrible laws.
I need an internship next summer.
Oh wait, I can't go that far.
@Zak There's a bit more to it for some, but that's definitely an important part of it.
Zak
Zak
I'm in the UK, a few miles outside london
Just brought in a new batch, but we usually only do it for Electrical Engineering students.
I actually need to start looking for an internship myself.
23:50
You guys make me feel old.
How old are you?
I need to ask my adviser if I can swap out an ITM internship for an SE internship and still graduate.
@nhgrif Old enough to have kids.
I think feeling old and being old aren't necessarily correlated.
I was 9 when Kurt Cobain died.
@Hosch250 16 year olds can have kids.
23:51
@nhgrif I literally turned 21 yesterday...lol
I turned 20 not long ago.
Which makes me 30. Yes. I had to do the math. Lol
@RubberDuck You're about a year older than me. I would've been 8.
@RubberDuck I was there on 9/11
Zak
Zak
I'm mildly autistic. One of the most effective changes I've made in the last few years is understanding that even if the rules governing human behaviour don't seem to make logical sense, they exist whether I like them or not, and they are at least well-documented, so I may as well just learn what they are and act accordingly
23:51
@RubberDuck LOL, sound like me.
At the other side of the world, yes, but I was there
@JeroenVannevel You're still in the UK atm, right?
Zak
Zak
I'm 22 in about a month and a half
Moving to Spain in September, no?
I've been to the UK once -- Edinburgh, 8 years ago
23:52
@JeroenVannevel... Yeah. So was I man. My kids will never know man. For them it's just some date in a history book and the reason you have to take your shoes off at the airport.
Are you referring to that vacation?
Because that is over for.. 8 years now
I don't remember if it was you or @DanPantry that was in the UK.
@EBrown me
Pantry sounds British. I bet it's him
I'm more awesome -- I'm Belgian
@JeroenVannevel I hate this surname...
23:53
@RubberDuck I'm the only one in here right now old enough to know what you're talking about...
@RubberDuck I would have been in second grade.
@Zak I get that. I had to study human behavior to learn how to act appropriately.
@nhgrif I remember it clearly.
Greetings
@DanPantry Don't! I think you're an awesome cupboard
4
23:54
Y2K is one of my earliest memories, and I remember 9/11, but I only knew that something bad had happened - I didn't know what the WTC was, and my parents didn't give us details.
My dad was in the USAF at the time, and he had to stay on base for almost a week (straight, no going home) after 9/11 and then was deployed shortly afterwards.
And that really sucked as a kid.
That's too bad.
I (and probably @RubberDuck) watched the 2nd plane live
I was with baby-sitters constantly for months, because he was away.
@nhgrif We didn't have that at school, we had an announcement and then everyone was sent home.
I came home from school, saw it on the news and was told by my mom that this would change a lot of things. She was right
23:55
@Hosch250 At the Y2K, I trully though the world was going to end.
We didn't have video.
Zak
Zak
@RubberDuck yeah. I'm still learning a lot, but I've got to the point where people will typically peg me as bit geeky/eccentric but nothing more than that
Before Y2K, I remember my dad playing Oregon Trail and crashing the computer. My mom says it was XP, but based on the timeframe, I'm pretty sure it was ME.
@RubberDuck I still haven't learned, so I just wing-it. :)
before Y2k? So, probably Win98?
23:56
Or 95
One of those.
Both were pretty commom (mispelled?)
It was a dual-boot Windows/Mac, so she says.
Right. Because XP and ME both came out after Y2k
@nhgrif Indeed.
Zak
Zak
23:57
It helps a lot that I'm smart, creative, enjoy learning and learn stuff quickly. People will tolerate a lot of weirdness if you can deliver the goods.
XP came in 2001
We didn't have it by 9/11, and we didn't get another til I was in HS.
And I'd be very surprised if it was a dual boot before Y2k... not impossible, but I'd be really surprised.
She says it was XP because of the dual-boot.
Windows ME then
23:57
I might be remembering wrong, maybe we had a couple.
XP was October 2001... and I'd still be surprised about dual boot...
It had support for Plug-and-Play
Actually...
@IsmaelMiguel That came out September 2000, after Y2K.
But we got rid of it shortly after Y2K.
23:58
Okay, so to someone who doesn't know any better...
Zak
Zak
My school put up with a lot of my It-related antics because I could get top exam results without really trying
@EBrown Then it was 98SE
My first computer was Windows 3.1, and some of the games were for Windows, but for half or more of the games, I had to boot into DOS... is this what your mom means by "dual boot"?
DOS is not OS X...
We had a DOS word processor, so she should know about DOS.
But it was definitely common on Win3.1 to boot into DOS. And that didn't entirely go away with Win95 or Win98.
23:59
My guess is it was a couple computers.

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