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21:00
For an hour? I've done less coding than that in the past 2 days of work.
The without testing part is something I shouldn't do
@Hosch250 If you don't know about a problem in some software you wrote, but your users do, and your users never report the problem, how can you fix it? If the university doesn't know about a problem you're having, and you never report the problem appropriately, how can the university fix it?
Give me your worst, still constructive criticism
It doesn't solve my problem with Visual Studio.
21:20
0
Q: Csv manipulation with Python

PittoI've prepared a script to manipulate csv files in Windows that simply adds quotes as requested. The script creates a backup of the original files and overwrite the wrong originals in its same folder. It works as expected but I'd be really happy to learn from gurus how to improve my code, my thi...

0
Q: An attribute that depends on some enums, but the enums also depend on that attribute

BrandonI have some enums that define measurement information, such as volume, mass, distance etc... They are defined as such: /// <summary> /// Units for measurement of area. /// </summary> public enum Area { /// <summary> /// Meters squared. /// </summary> M2 = 0, /// <summary> ...

@nhgrif I fix it by testing and catching it.
And, we wrote to the professor, so hopefully he mends his wicked ways.
@Hosch250 But how do you know you need to test something that's never been reported?
That's the point...
@nhgrif I test it before I release it.
I test everything many times over before I release it.
You will never catch 100% of bugs during the testing phase if you're releasing anything non-trivial.
I have only released a bug once, and I pushed a patch withing 12 hours.
No one reported it.
I doubt anyone even downloaded it.
21:35
All right, now let's say you're writing a very complicated, very serious application.
Some aspects of what it does you barely understand...
You can follow the code, but what it does for the end user, you're not necessarily real clear about.
You test it all you want, but the end user knows better than you how it is supposed to work.
If it is very serious, they'd better get someone to write it who does understand.
So you release it, and it's bug free as far as you know.
But an end user finds a bug. It's a real bug. We're not questioning whether or not this is a bug. This is a hypothetical (yet extraordinarily real) scenario... this is a bona fide bug.
I don't think software is a good analogy to this, but, I get your point.
Software is the perfect analogy for this.
What's the most complicated software you use on a daily basis?
Uh, Windows?
21:38
Could be a video game (these are very complicated pieces of software)
Office?
Not an OS though, an application.
Which Office apps do you use?
Do you use Access?
Word, PowerPoint, OneNote, Outlook.
Photoshop Elements?
None of these are buggy.
I'm not saying they are...
Maybe they aren't optimal (probably not).
21:39
Although, I also doubt they're bug-free.
They probably have bad code in them somewhere, but they don't crash.
Do you use any IDEs?
Visual Studio is very buggy.
Yes, that crashes occasionally.
They need to test more.
21:40
But, let's say you've found some minor bug
Maybe they should hire me.
@Hosch250 That's utter crap
You can't account for all possible bugs, no matter how good you test
End of story
Let's say... if you create a file called ThisCausesABug.cs, every time you close VS, it appends a new line to the end of the file. Just the new line character.
And it only happens if the file is named exactly that.
And maybe it even only happens sometimes.
Um, that would have to be a feature.
And you've noticed this bug, but you think "meh, it's not that big of a deal" and you never report it through the proper channels.
How should Microsoft know they need to test and then fix this bug?
You opted not to report it.
They never stumbled across it in their testing.
21:42
The best effort to get a "bug-free" application you can do is to continue executing and log (and possibly show somewhere in a small window) that something bad happened
But how do you know what to log?
And how do you know what actually is bad particularly in exceptionally complicated software like IDEs or ERP systems.
You log the exception that occurred for example, it doesn't mean the application is bug-free, you just have to hope it won't crash or do any other weird things
What exception?
I think ignoring only works for things running in containers, isn't it else too risky?
The one that is thrown.
21:43
No exception is thrown.
Bugs can happen without exceptions being thrown.
Do you not get that?
Those are features.
I can't tell if you're serious or not...
But if you are, good luck having any job even remotely related to software development.
I'm not.
Personally I'm getting quite annoyed by this constant defying attitude in the face of reason
Meanwhile, just because an exception occurred doesn't mean there's a bug. If an unhandled exception occurred, there's almost certainly a bug.
21:45
An unintended side-effect is not a feature, simple as that
If an unhandled exception occurs, there is guaranteed to be a bug, isn't there?
So you can't simply log ALL exceptions handled or not... because that catches some things that aren't actually bugs... and misses a lot of things that actually are bugs.
@Hosch250 Pretty much, yes.
Because either it should be handled, or it shouldn't be thrown.
Bug either way, and I can't think of a third scenario.
Bugs don't always produce an exception
2
@JeroenVannevel It is just a joke, even Coding Horror posted it on his blog somewhere.
21:47
@Hosch250 My application can work completely fine, even if it throws exception every once in a while and I deal with exceptions in such a way that nobody notices it
@JeroenVannevel I know - I had a faulty sort algorithm in my app for a while until I tested it more thoroughly.
And, my users wouldn't have reported it, either.
@skiwi I can't completely recommend that you let exceptions go entirely unnoticed by the user.
It depends on what you're doing generally... but no matter what information you log... even if you're taking a screenshot of their screen as the exception happens, it's always helpful to have the user know that the exception occurred so that they can provide some sort of feedback.
@nhgrif I'd say, it depends, showing them is not a bad thing though, as long as it's not a big in your face exception
@Hosch250 Users will report failures, they won't report the actual mistake that has been made in the code
Some really weird thing might be happening in your app and you'll get a report of that, and it is your job to track that down to the fact that your sorting algorithm was wrong
Our application has an unhandled exception handler which takes a screenshot, asks the user to leave a comment, and provides the ability for them to immediately send an email to us (otherwise it logs in their database and we don't check these that regularly).
Or maybe your algorithm was right but the data was wrong.
@skiwi It did not appear to be a failure.
It searched keywords and sorted the result based on closest match, but my algo was wrong.
They wouldn't have known there was anything to report.
21:51
For example, I had a bug where some rows were sorting incorrectly. It was sorting by date, but the date had already been turned into a string starting with the month... so "February 2, 2015" sorted before "January 2, 2015"
Yes, I would report that.
Though, I actually caught that in testing.
But, would you report that "Bold" was before "Keyboard Shortcuts"?
Or vice-versa?
Based on the search "Bold"?
I don't know. Does it matter to the end user what order they're in? And if it doesn't matter to the end-user what order they're in, is it actually a bug?
It searches the page content, not the name.
Yes, it sometimes does.
I had content with a score of 7+ being down with the scores of 2-
21:53
None of what you're saying makes any sense to me.
But the real point is... users don't report all bugs.
Even if they see it and they know it's a bug, they still aren't guaranteed to report it.
So, suppose I sorted the weights { 7, 7, 7, 5, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1 }
0
Q: How can I make this script more transparent and readable?

ssdecontrolI have a CSV data file with 3,896 columns (variables), and I am attempting to extract a particular subset of columns for use in a data analysis project. To avoid the burden of having to constantly check the codebook, the script also renames the variables according a particular pattern, using an a...

It should be like that, but what if I sorted it like { 7, 7, 5, 2, 3, 2, 7, 2, 1 }?
@JeroenVannevel More often than not, they don't throw an exception.
Exceptions are easy to spot. Real bugs..... they're subtle.
That is a bug, but what if the user only saw a set of titles with content?
They might suspect that some content at the bottom is a closer match to their search, but again, they might not.
21:55
And if you the developer don't know it exists and the user does know it exists, then the situation is that the user is disappointed with the product and you don't know it and you can't fix it. You can't fix what you don't know is broken.
They wouldn't know it was a bug either way.
And that is why I test, and test again, and test again and again.
Anything the user finds odd is a bug. Even if it's by design.
3
If it causes the user confusion or pain, it's a bug.
And this relates to the problem you're having at the university. You're disatisfied in some way with the university's product. If you don't report the problem with their product to them, you have no reasonable expectation of them fixing it for you. You're disatisfied and not giving them opportunity to fix their flaw.
I did report it to them.
This bug is ....
3
21:58
I reported it to the teacher.
But that may or may not be the proper way of reporting the flaw. My guess is probably not.
Alright, I have 10 minutes ...... ;-) Time to catch up on days worth of limited CR attention.
Yes, we have to attempt to resolve it with the teacher before we contact anyone else.
@Hosch250 You need to follow the chain
As long as you're following whatever the university has set forth as the guidelines.
21:59
If the teacher is a continuous offender, then we can go to our adviser.
Teacher > (Personal coach) > Study coordinator > Head of university > Student group (university/national) > You're screwed
We have 2-3 people above the adviser, but the last person's decision is final.
Unless I take it to court, and the Supreme Court is final there.
@Hosch250 You should always go to the advisor if you can't reach an agreement with your teacher, no matter if it's continuous or not, that is up for the department to decide and how to handle it
If it goes to that point, I might as well take my talent (or untalent) elsewhere.
The teacher posted the material, so we are fine this time.
@RubberDuck And yes, this. We have a really, really bad UX bug with one aspect of our software...
22:01
And, I am fixing UX bugs too.
@Hosch250 If you get a survey at the end of your semester, then you should still report this incident
And, I need to write a startup tutorial to train users not only about my app, but about Windows/Windows Phone features it uses.
I know that at our university we get surveys at the end of every semester and they use them really well to improve the course as best as possible for the next instance of that course
@skiwi The teacher has 3 more chances. If they are fine, I'm not going to report it.
If they are late regularly, I will report it in the survey.
Part of our software calculates exactly when you need to place a purchase order or start manufacturing an item based on your needs (sales orders, or items required to make other items you have scheduled to make). It works perfectly. But we get regular bug reports from people who are using it incorrectly (and making wrong decisions with it) because they don't understand it...
22:03
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Q: Learning Java for a week wrote Coin dispenser. Comments suggestions welcome

geoandroid23Decided to go tech and learn a language. I have been reading Java for a week and here is my first attempt. I am making a habit to write JUnit test cases so that I start on correct path. Here is an attempt to write program that dispenses coins in the denomination in the range of $20 to 1 cent incl...

Maybe you should write a tutorial set for them.
Want to hire me?
Still waiting for that criticism. Don't think I can't track you live who is and isn't looking. I've got a big brother dashboard
@nhgrif have you had any luck getting VS to work?
@mjolka No.
damn
22:04
@nhgrif Yup. . I've had to squish a few of those too.
@Hosch250 The problem with help files (we have help files) is that no one reads it.
3
Amen! Preach it brother!
@JeroenVannevel Perhaps tomorrow... running out of time here
I opened it in one of my 746 tabs, so eventually I'll get there!
@nhgrif Have it show up by default the first time they use a feature.
Our testers write helpfiles between testing tasks. It's basically wasted time as far as I can tell.
And no.
22:05
Instead of making them ask for it, have them click Cancel.
Have it be interactive.
If it shows up the first time, they'll close it to get it out of the way and complain to us about these pop ups they are getting.
2
Depends on how well it is designed.
Moreover, you can't just explain bits of an ERP system in a 5 minute read through.
I agree.
We have an @nhgrif going on over there.
22:06
Maybe you should have a service to hold classes for new users.
Or maybe we should design our module so it's more intuitive?
Of course.
That's literally the easiest solution.
At a certain point, it won't get any more intuitive though.
Every other part of our software is quite intuitive.
And if your users are having trouble still...
Then what?
Sorry a little late to the game on that...
Then, try a minimal tutorial thing on start up.
1-2 pages, quick swipe through.
Large text, 1 picture, 1 sentence.
That kind of stuff.
Or, offer training classes for a fee for new users.
Tell a company that pays 5-figures for their software that "Oh by the way, you'll also have to invest about 6 weeks of training time per employee you intend to use our software"
22:09
A lot of companies do.
Only, not that much time.
The more expensive the software, the more training needed to use it right.
No, a lot of companies with complicated software offer training programs and certifications. And companies expect their new hires to already have the certification.
Companies expect their new hires to have already trained themselves on the software on their own time.
0
Q: Wrapper classes for objects returned by 3rd paty APIs

TiggyI am building a WPF application which uses a third party library to fetch objects which I want to allow the user to interact with. The objects are returned as interface types. Am I right in thinking it is good practise to create wrapper classes for these objects instead of binding directly to th...

Or on some other company's time.
And given that we're basically an entry level (or slightly above entry level) ERP system, our customers are usually people making the jump from "We'll just use Quickbooks to manage our company".
IIRC, MS has a deal where you can hire them to install Windows/Office on your system(s) and train you how to use it.
Or is that Best Buy?
When new customers buy our software, there is training included.
22:11
A lot of smaller third-party companies do too.
But you can't just learn our software in a day or two.
OK, well, that is what I meant.
We hired a new employee about 6 weeks ago. He is still learning the software.
What company do you work for anyway?
Ability, LLC
22:13
I'm learning about ERP and CRM in college.
And other MIS systems.
Right. ERP is very complicated stuff.
Sure is.
There are college courses just on ERP systems.
I'm taking a course on MIS systems.
You can cover Word/PowerPoint/Excel/Access in a single semester.
22:14
It is mostly abstract though.
Or in a single semester, you could get an introductory level ERP class.
And a lot of it is so basic I already know it.
Like, what software and hardware and networking systems and data managing systems are.
@nhgrif Did you ever install Windows 8.1?
It walks you through a couple things in the first few minutes, and then leaves you alone.
No.
That is what I meant by a quick tutorial.
Does your company have forums?
We're not going to build a tutorial into the software, for plenty of reasons.
We need to redesign the module.
When we have time.
22:17
Adobe and MS and Apple Google and a lot of companies offer forums for users to help each other.
Then, they have a few of their employees on it too.
We don't have enough users for that to be helpful. Moreover, most of the time when you're posting on a forum with a problem you're having, you typically want to post a screenshot of your software, right? Most of our customers wouldn't be able to do this in most cases.
Actually, screenshots are rarely used on the MS forums.
At least two or three of our customers are aerospace manufacturors that fulfill government contracts... they make parts for military aircraft.
It is just a more or less detailed text description.
Fun.
So, classified, right?
No screenshots.
Not classified, exactly.
22:20
Bet some of the computers are completely separated.
I mean, if it were classified, I wouldn't be allowed to see most of it because I've never had any sort of security clearance.
Company secrets, then?
Partly that, but also there are some ITAR parts.
So, you don't want other countries knowing?
It's not about what I want... it's about what's legal.
22:22
Yeah, I meant the US government doesn't want other countries knowing.
@Hosch250 You'll understand this kind of compliance-related stuff better once you work for companies
So, the list of modules in our software... by memory... Time Clock, Time Management, AllPart, Inventory, Jobs, Orders, Accounting, Data Analysis, Shortage, Accounts, Employees, Permissions, Attachments, Company Settings, User Settings... and at least 3 or 4 more I'm forgetting...
I see.
Looks complicated.
Shop Floor, Scheduler, Quality, Project Planning
22:26
So, is the ERP offered cross-system?
Is it OSX only, or does it run on Windows/Linux too?
Put it in different context, I work for an insurance company and use software mostly internally designed. But let's say I was using a 3rd party software in the task of underwriting an insurance policy or building some internal margins... It would be against compliance policies (and often against the law) to post any of that information in a public forum, or even the software developer's internal system
By "cross-system", you mean cross-platform? Different OSes? It's Windows only. It's written in .NET.
I thought you developed for Apple systems?
Or, is that just a hobby?
I started here as an iOS developer. We have an iOS extension of the desktop application.
Do you support Windows Phone?
No.
Or Android?
Nope.
And my boss quit a few weeks ago... so now I've taken up most of his responsibilities on the desktop.
Any plans to support these in the future?
22:32
Would this be before or after the proposed tutorials you've recommended we write into the software?
@Phrancis sure it is Phrancis. :) non-disclosure agreement it is
Before.
btw. Morning everybody. Hope you will start an amazing Friday morning like I am right now in coming hours :D
If it can be improved without the tutorials, go for that.
We're not planning on supporting Android any time soon.
22:34
thanks @Mehrad :) you're here early
I was assuming it was optimal already.
@Mehrad Bingo!
@mjolka Not early at all my friend... 8:30 sharp wearing a casual C# shirt :)
The main iOS app is iPad only, and part of its primary purpose is scanning barcodes... it makes more sense how useful this actually is if you actually use our software... anyway, it doesn't really fit that well on phone screens, and most Android tablets don't have good back cameras... and even if they did, Android doesn't have a very good built-in barcode scanning SDK.
22:36
@nhgrif don't let what happened to Nokia to happen to you guys. :) just saying
What?
WP has Bing Vision in the camera, which accurately scans bar codes off my laptop screen.
I don't know what WP is...
Windows Phone.
Oh, Windows Phone.
I don't need an app to scan barcodes.
I need a barcode scanning library that is really, really good.
So it can be built in to the app.
22:37
It does those square scan code things, not a bar code.
I was getting a bit mixed.
You're still missing the point.
Yeah.
They're all barcodes to me. We scan both.
I need a library so it can be built in to my application.
OK, it runs C# and .NET just like Windows.
22:38
And it needs to work really well.
@mjolka wrote the best custom `Exception` ever yesterday.
Copy/Paste MSDN :)
@Mehrad that's the way to go :)
The only one available on Android that I noticed was the same library I was using on iOS pre-iOS7, and that library hasn't been very good lately. It has a memory leak.
You won't just to able to compile and run, but you should be able to use large chunks of your existing logic.
Do a Universal app if you decide to.
@nhgrif are you talking about zxing?
22:39
ZBarSDK, I think?
I don't remember.
I would like to know how to pronounce zxing :D
I'm not going to take even an hour of my time to look into developing a Windows Phone app until I see someone holding a Windows phone.
"Zee-exing"
@Mehrad "zebra crossing"
@nhgrif Holding one.
Want a picture?
No.
22:41
OK.
Are you going to buy our software?
And use it how?
I don't know.
1
Q: Selecting a subset of the data from a list

user2958395I have a list called all_dates which contains timestamps for a number of days (hourly). I wanted to select each day (i.e every 24 items in the list) and pass it to a function. Here is my implementation that works: count = 0 while count < len(all_dates)-1: day_list = [all_dates[count]] f...

However you want.
22:42
@mjolka pulling my leg? if so there are so many implicity in there :D
I don't have anything to use it for.
Official ZXing ("Zebra Crossing") project home
Hi from WP.
@Hosch250 I think nhgrif's point is the market share on WP is so small, compared to iOS right now, that YAGNI for quite a while.
22:46
I figured as much.
@mjolka wow... love it... quite clever of some sort. it's in the vicinities of Uee and all :)
However, they should try to be the first to support that market when their is a need.
It will take the other companies a while to play catch-up.
MS Dynamics might already support it.
Well, as soon as we hire about 6 new developers, I've got plenty of things for them to work on @Hosch250.
It turns out, in the real world, there's this very limited supply of a resource called time, or "development hours".
And the first 99% of any project takes 90% of the time you scheduled for that project. The last 1% of that project takes the other 90% of the time you scheduled for that project. What's that, you didn't schedule 180% of the time you scheduled?
22:49
Is the last 1% fixing bugs?
They sure take a while to kill.
No. Not always.
Sometimes the last 1% is feature creep.
Sometimes the last 1% is that when a potential end-user gets their hand on a product, it turns out that 40% of it needs to be redesigned.
> The CRM comes with a native app that is supported on Windows phone. You would be able to access the ERP's with a Mobile Client Application.
That is MS Dynamics.
Okay.
let not invent what is invented and just say
Does MS Dynamics support iOS?
22:51
Well that's settled then. @nhgrif's company will lose all its value overnight because MS dynamics exist
Well yeah, that too.
Should've developed for WP.
@JeroenVannevel I didn't say that.
The point was, MS Dynamics already supports WP, so they can't be the first.
For the record, one of our current clients came to us from MS Dynamics.
Windows Phone support will never be a strong selling point for our software.
Developer time is extraordinarily expensive.
We don't manufacture a mobile phone. If we did, it'd support our ERP system. It'd be in our best interest. We wouldn't support it because it's a huge market share. We'd support it because supporting it might encourage some of our clients to then go get our phone so they can use it with our desktop client.
22:55
However, if Dynamics for WP is only as good as Office for WP, it is no good.
Well, you say that... but I've never been on my phone and thought, "Hang on, I need to mess around with my spreadsheet real quick!"... but if I ran a business and I wanted to check on the status of a sales order while I'm talking to my customer, I'm pretty sure that'd hold a high level of value for me...
Regardless of how well it worked.
If it doesn't work good, it is more useless than not existing.
Depends on what you mean by good.
@Hosch250 We understand you're a big fan of the whole Microsoft thing, I think we're trying to illustrate that there are other tools that can do some things better, and also often business needs are very specific and a Microsoft-based device is not a practical solution
@Phrancis I like MS because I can have a whole ecosystem that works well together.
But, I do not like some of their products either.
And, I do understand that other products do things better.
22:59
My iPhone and iPad works perfectly fine with my Mac.
@Hosch250 Yep. Apple has that too. So does Java. Etc. etc.

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