English Language Learners

Anonymous

00:00

Happy New Year!

2

Damkerng T.

Happy New Year 2015 Zulu time!

Anonymous

I don't know which message to star for optimal hatness

Anonymous

Tell me if I choose unwisely :-)

Damkerng T.

The last one would be nice. Thanks!

Believe it or not, I can't find my ELU chat tab!

Anonymous

Don't worry! You can have more than one!

Anonymous

00:04

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…

Not for the faint of heart or those easily triggered by Englis...

6

55

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

Anonymous

I noticed that in new Firefox, if I type a URL I already have (I type "95" to bring up the ELU chat, and it fills in the rest), it gives me a "switch to tab" option

Anonymous

Instead of opening another tab

Anonymous

I assume that's an option

Damkerng T.

@snailboat A-ha!

Anonymous

00:06

I starred your あけおめ in JL.SE chat :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Thanks a lot!

:D

Anonymous

01:09

@DamkerngT. I was confused―I didn't realize someone had to star the message for you to get the hat!

Anonymous

'Cause it doesn't tell you that unless you click the hat to read the full description

Anonymous

Say, did I ever share this? I got a new product made in China, and it has relatively good (if markedly non-native) English on the packaging

Anonymous

But it has one thing that stands out as, well, difficult to explain:

Anonymous

Anonymous

"dripping genuine dissapearance"

Anonymous

01:11

I'm not really sure what to make of it.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah! Good think I starred yours. :-)

I think it's like "Counterfeiting no more!"

Come to think of it, I think I'm not really sure what it means either! :D

Anonymous

01:30

I like your solstice hat.

Damkerng T.

Thanks! I wear it the Laughing Man's style. I like your boat, too!

Aww... getting 20 hats is hard this year.

Anonymous

02:04

It is. I have 16 on ELL

Anonymous

I don't think I'll make it to 20

Anonymous

I could get to 18 if I asked a question with the iPhone app and answered it myself

Anonymous

And 19 if I answered 5 questions on a Saturday.

Anonymous

But I don't think I'd manage to get to 20.

Damkerng T.

I think I will miss the Aztec Hat. -- sobbing

Anonymous

02:06

And I don't have as many hats on any other site.

Anonymous

So I won't get the Aztec hat this year.

Damkerng T.

It would fit a robot face nicely. :-)

Anyhow I think I already have the next best thing, the Solstice Hat!

Anonymous

Yay!

Damkerng T.

I'm not very sure but I think the hats this year encourage different behaviors from the last time.

Oh, they have Eureka hat again! I can't remember the condition for the Eureka hat last year.

Anonymous

You have to be one of the first people to guess how to get a secret hat

Anonymous

02:12

It's manually awarded, and usually once the method for a secret hat has been posted publicly you can't get the Eureka hat for it anymore

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Sounds cool, and fair enough.

Anonymous

It's probably not terribly constructive, since trying to guess how to get a secret hat can lead to some non-ideal behavior

Anonymous

Like, say, bumping a bunch of old questions to create a new tag

Anonymous

But overall, the hat fest probably creates more positive activity than negative

Anonymous

So it's probably a good thing on balance

Damkerng T.

02:15

I remember we've seen that on the main site. Last week, maybe? Maybe longer than that.

@snailboat I hope so, too!

Anonymous

If nothing else, I imagine it leads to more people getting their questions answered

Anonymous

Maybe not a lot more. :-)

Anonymous

@Hanaa For example, if you follow the steps I've outlined, one of the first chapters you should come across is Swain's highly influential The output hypothesis and beyond: Mediating acquisition through collaborative dialogue

2

CopperKettle

02:50

Top of the morning, folks (0:

Happy New 2015, @snailboat (0:

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Morning! :-)

Anonymous

You know, there's an awful lot of grammar.

Anonymous

I hear some people say things like "Japanese grammar is pretty simple", but I have no idea what they're talking about

Anonymous

'Cause no matter how much I study grammar, I keep learning new things :-)

Anonymous

I like the way John Lawler put it.

Anonymous

03:05

> Every language has about the same amount of grammar - lots.

Anonymous

(on his website)

CopperKettle

An Old English word for it was stæfcræft

stæfcræft "grammar," stæfcræftig "lettered," stæflic "literary," stæfleahtor "grammatical error"

Anonymous

Oh, yeah, the development of grammar is interesting

Anonymous

It's related to grimoire and glamour

CopperKettle

oh, indeed! Did not notice the mention of Scottish "glamor"

I've overslept the 8 am bicycle ride...

Oh.. I see it's still not New Year in the USA!

@snailboat Grimoire - must be a very rare word, this is the first time I saw it (0:

Anonymous

03:17

Hmm, well,

Anonymous

You know how certain words are rare in general contexts but common in specific contexts?

Anonymous

Like, in certain types of fantasy fiction grimoire is relatively common

Anonymous

So if you're the type who reads that sort of book a lot you're sure to learn the word eventually

Anonymous

But almost no one ever calls a book a grimoire in normal speech unless they belong to a subculture that uses that sort of word

Anonymous

Unless it's part of the actual name of the book

CopperKettle

03:19

I guess I underindulge on fantasy fiction then (0:

Anonymous

Depends on the sort of fantasy, anyway.

Anonymous

Look at the sort of things you find if you search Amazon for grimoire

Anonymous

amazon.com/Guitar-Grimoire-Exercise-Book/dp/0825835658

Anonymous

Hey, I think I've heard of that one.

CopperKettle

I expected to see tax account calculation books and programming guides

Anonymous

03:21

Oh, no, it's not generally used in serious stuff.

Anonymous

It's too old-fashioned of a word.

Anonymous

And it has those occult associations.

Anonymous

Like, a book of magic.

CopperKettle

I see

Anonymous

When I think of grimoire, I picture an ancient, dusty old tome

CopperKettle

03:26

I see.. Fortran Grimoire: Introduction (1960)

Ha. One guy wrote that he started on the 8 am ride, rode 500 meters and turned back, it is so cold (0:

Anonymous

Yeah, some people use grimoire as part of a creative name for a book

Anonymous

I mean, it's still a word people will know.

Anonymous

And at its core, it means book, apart from its other associations (a book of magic, an old book, a rather large book)

Anonymous

Huh. Macmillan Dictionary doesn't have an entry for it.

Anonymous

collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/grimoire

CopperKettle

03:31

"An ancient grammar grimoire, CGEL he carried from afar."

It could be the beginning of a heroic poem

Anonymous

Hee.

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

I don't usually celebrate the new year

Anonymous

I mean, I think it's neat.

Anonymous

But most people get together and drink, and I'm a teetotaller.

Anonymous

03:38

And then there's fireworks, and I can't seem to help finding loud abrupt sounds like fireworks frightening

CopperKettle

Oh, here there's fireworks for a couple of hours too (0:

In Russia, New Year is mostly a family affair

Anonymous

Ahh, I see

Anonymous

It can be a bit of that here, too

Anonymous

Depending.

Anonymous

I have memories of making it a family event when I was little

Anonymous

03:41

We children would get to drink sparkling grape juice

CopperKettle

We usually set up a big New Year tree with toys

Which was easy to get in Siberia (0:

Though they grow without toys

Get a lot of food, watch the President's address, drink champagne (for adults) and something less strong (for kids) (0:

And go fire fireworks (0:

@snailboat Frightening? I'd say annoying (0:

@snailboat We would get to drink Pepsi, which was as rare as hen's teeth then

Anonymous

Oh, sorry to hear that Pepsi invaded

CopperKettle

Oh, I don't mind, I went to buy a bottle of non-calorie Pepsi an hour before New Year yesterday for my sister (0:

CopperKettle

04:18

"I think that will not be mistaken if I say that for most people who was born in USSR New Year is associated with a smell of tangerines, sparklers and tobogganing."

I wonder if this future tense is wrong

Anonymous

@CopperKettle That use of will seems okay, but that the subject that seems not so good

Anonymous

And were to agree with plural most people, via relative who

CopperKettle

@snailboat Thank you, snailboat! It's from lang-8.com/1001060/journals/…

A native speaker fixed the "will not" into a present-tense construction for some reason

Anonymous

Well, they were presumably trying to repair the sentence as a whole...?

Anonymous

There are multiple problems that need addressing

Anonymous

04:22

I don't know what their suggested change was.

CopperKettle

@snailboat Yes, including the smell of toboganning (0:

Anonymous

I suppose I should click your link!

CopperKettle

Their fixed version is "I think that I am not mistaken if I say that for most people born in the USSR, New Year is associated with a the smell of tangerines, sparklers and tobogganing."

starsplusplus

@snailboat I think "would" sounds better than "will".(I'm assuming there's a missing "I" before "that".) It's theorising on if I say that, after all...

CopperKettle

I just thought that "I will not" is okay too.

Anonymous

04:23

@starsplusplus I like would, too

CopperKettle

@starsplusplus Happy New 2015, @starsplusplus!

starsplusplus

@CopperKettle Thanks. You too! :)

CopperKettle

In Russian, "sparklers" are "Bengal fires" (referring to the Indian state)

"I wish you happiness again, so that you have twice as much happiness!" <-- Is this a subjunctive?

I guess it is.. I was proofreading an English speaker's attempt to translate this into Russian. (0:

She translated the second part of the sentence in the indicative mood.

"I wish you happiness again, now you have twice as much happiness!"

Anonymous

@CopperKettle It seems a little bit suspect to me as a sentence

CopperKettle

@snailboat Oh. Thanks! Poorly coordinated I guess.

lang-8.com/1111410/journals/…

Anonymous

04:38

I wonder if they'd really accept "I wish him happiness again, so that he have twice as much happiness!"

Anonymous

Compare: "It is essential that he take careful note of what they say." (example of the subjunctive construction from CGEL p.77)

Anonymous

Seems unlikely.

CopperKettle

Why unlikely? "he take", "he have", the base form of the verb

Anonymous

CGEL's example is fine.

Anonymous

I was using it to point something out:

Anonymous

04:41

The string you have is ambiguous. Is it subjunctive or not? Well, have would be the same either way.

Anonymous

So we replace the subject with he, as a test.

CopperKettle

Oh, I see, if it were in the fird person, we would've seen it's a subjunctive right away

Anonymous

Because a finite verb will change form to agree with a singular third person subject: he has

Anonymous

While in the subjunctive construction, the plain form is used instead: he have

CopperKettle

nods

Anonymous

04:42

Since the resulting sentence sounds rather off (at least to me), I'd suggest that it's not actually subjunctive

CopperKettle

But it's a wish, so it must be in the subjunctive

Or maybe it's a statement? I thought it was a wish

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Ah, that's mixing up semantics with syntax.

Anonymous

"I hope that he has a nice day."

Anonymous

Not subjunctive.

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

04:45

"Be that as it may"

Anonymous

Not a wish.

CopperKettle

But it has the (forgot the term) force of a subjunctive, I guess

Semantically it's a subjunctive

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Also, "Come what may."

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, fixed phrases like these preserve archaic uses of the subjunctive

Damkerng T.

I'm back!

Anonymous

04:51

@CopperKettle Since subjunctive is a syntactic term, that doesn't entirely make sense

Anonymous

If you like, though, maybe call it optative

CopperKettle

Happy New Thai year of 2015, @DamkerngT.! (0:

@snailboat Okay, thanks! I'd opt for optative. (0:

Damkerng T.

Happy New Year @CopperKettle! (Thai New Year has to wait for three and a half more months still. :-)

Anonymous

See Quirk et al. p.839

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Oh, I see (0:

@snailboat Thank you, Snailboat

@DamkerngT. I've just read that in the pre-Peter Russia, New Year was celebrated on March 1

Damkerng T.

04:55

Ah, I think Chinese New Year is in Feb. It seems like we're going to have more New Years, every month for a few more months. :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

Months are silly.

Anonymous

We've got September, October, November, December (7, 8, 9, 10!) for the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th months

Damkerng T.

Oh, really!

CopperKettle

Yes, because int he Ancient Rome they had only 10

Damkerng T.

04:57

What are the two odd months that make twelve?

(In Thai, names of months are zodiac-like. So, twelve makes sense.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, yeah, Japanese used to have special names for each month!

Anonymous

But in modern Japanese, it's just month one through month twelve.

Anonymous

Though they're lexical compounds, so 四月 is always しがつ

Damkerng T.

Oh! I guess that the old names are also related to zodiac, too.

Anonymous

Hmm, they aren't actually, but they're interesting

Anonymous

05:01

The month I was born, August, was called 葉月 hazuki "month of leaves"

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, you're a Leo!

Anonymous

That's right.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That's interesting.

Anonymous

Generally, the old Japanese names for months sound poetic, but they're a bit opaque

Anonymous

You can't count on everyone being able to recognize them.

Damkerng T.

05:02

Hah!

Anonymous

Although certainly native speakers will have heard them before

Anonymous

(I, of course, am not a native speaker of Japanese :-)

Damkerng T.

So, in modern Japanese, months are Month 1 to 12, I guess?

CopperKettle

@snailboat In Ukrainian, it's Serpen, "the month of the sickle"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, that's right. Since Japanese is strictly head-final, -gatsu comes second: ichi-gatsu is January, then ni-gatsu for February, and so on.

Damkerng T.

05:05

@CopperKettle Maybe it was time for cultivation. :-)

@snailboat We use "Month 1" too, but with a different calender.

Anonymous

Use the Sino-Japanese numerals: ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, hachi, ku (not kyuu), juu, juu-ichi, juu-ni

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Yes! But in Russian, it's August, we borrowed the names from the Romans (0:

Or on a half-reap’d furrow sound asleep,
Drows’d with the fume of poppies, while thy hook
Spares the next swath and all its twined flowers:
And sometimes like a gleaner thou dost keep
Steady thy laden head across a brook;
Or by a cyder-press, with patient look,
Thou watchest the last oozings hours by hours

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Interesting!

Anonymous

Of course, being an English speaker, I'd have guessed that meant "month of the serpent" :-)

CopperKettle

@snailboat (0:

Damkerng T.

05:08

@CopperKettle thou dost keep!

CopperKettle

No, "serp" is "sickle" (0:

Anonymous

Serpens, of course, has lots of cognates.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. It's one of the best English poems, I recalled it while thinking of "sickle" (hook) (0:

Anonymous

You know a lot of poems, huh?

Damkerng T.

And nice poems at that!

CopperKettle

05:10

@snailboat Probably yes, I've overindulged on poetry once I got acquainted enough with English

To Autumn

"To Autumn" is a poem by English Romantic poet John Keats (31 October 1795 – 23 February 1821). The work was composed on 19 September 1819 and published in 1820 in a volume of Keats's poetry that included Lamia and The Eve of St. Agnes. "To Autumn" is the final work in a group of poems known as Keats's "1819 odes". Although personal problems left him little time to devote to poetry in 1819, he composed "To Autumn" after a walk near Winchester one autumnal evening. The work marks the end of his poetic career, as he needed to earn money and could no longer devote himself to the lifestyle of a poet...

Anonymous

A small but significant minority of Japanese learners seem to be rather interested in Classical Japanese poetry.

CopperKettle

He was heavily ill with tuberculosis when he wrote it...

Anonymous

I think it's neat, but I think I have a tin ear when it comes to anything poetical.

Anonymous

I signed up for the Poetry SE on Area 51 nonetheless, but . . . :-)

CopperKettle

@snailboat I was told by a fellow Jap learner that their poetry doesn't rhyme

Damkerng T.

05:11

BRB

Anonymous

Yes―by the way, please do not abbreviate Japanese that way

CopperKettle

CYA!

Anonymous

It's a racial slur

CopperKettle

@snailboat Oh, sorry.

Anonymous

In many countries it can be used as a neutral abbreviation, but Japanese Americans are rather sensitive about it, since America is where it was used as a slur

CopperKettle

05:12

I heard it used in 1940-sh movies so I must've guessed

Anonymous

Oh, yes, that was the height of it

Anonymous

And, in that time, Americans forced citizens and non-citizens of Japanese descent into camps:

Anonymous

Internment of Japanese Americans

The internment of Japanese Americans in the United States was the forced relocation and incarceration during World War II of between 110,000 and 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry who lived on the Pacific coast in camps in the interior of the country. Sixty-two percent of the internees were United States citizens. The U.S. government ordered the removal of Japanese Americans in 1942, shortly after Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. Such incarceration was applied unequally due to differing population concentrations and, more importantly, state and regional politics: more than 110,000 Japanese...

CopperKettle

@snailboat Yes, I know. The USSR forced German natives into Kazakhstan at the same time..

..where many perished.

Anonymous

Yes, a lot of awful things happened all around the world in those times

Anonymous

05:15

Using the slur Jap recalls those times

Anonymous

There was widespread and institutionalized racism at that time

CopperKettle

I met one German native who survived because his father, a military hero, bribed the guards guarding the train and whisked his family to the Urals

He was constantly telling how untidy the ward was (we were lying in the same diabetics ward) (0: A real German. But knowing only Russian, and using the swear words with skill.

Anonymous

Wow!

CopperKettle

A lot of Germans settled in Russia in the 18th century

Volga Germans

The Volga Germans (German: Wolgadeutsche or Russlanddeutsche, Russian: Поволжские немцы, Povolzhskie nemtsy) were ethnic Germans living along the River Volga in the region of southeastern European Russia around Saratov and to the south. Recruited as immigrants to Russia in the 18th century, they were allowed to maintain their German culture, language, traditions, and churches (Lutheran, Reformed, Catholics, and Mennonites). In the 19th and early 20th centuries, many Volga Germans emigrated to the Dakotas and other states in the western United States, as well as to Canada and South America (mainly...

He was a Volga German, but now lived near Yekaterinburg with other Volga Germans

Damkerng T.

Hooray, I got a new pump!

CopperKettle

05:18

He said people came to visit their village to see how tidy it is

Anonymous

Hooray! A pump?

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Cheers on that! (0:

Damkerng T.

@snailboat My pump was broken last week. :-)

It's a water pump.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. We have a centralized system here, but there's a pump too down the street. (0:

Damkerng T.

Ah, maybe it's different in other countries, but in Bangkok, it's common that the water pressure is not good enough to get the water to upper floors without the help of a pump.

@CopperKettle Neat!

CopperKettle

05:21

@DamkerngT. Too bad.. Here the only problem is the foul smell of the water. It's quite undrinkable until you filter it.

Damkerng T.

Bad smell is not nice! The water here doesn't have any smell, afaict, but we filter drinking water anyway.

CopperKettle

@snailboat Yes! His father was an ethnic German who fought against Germans in the Stalingrad Battle, for which he got a decoration and was allowed a furlough. Quite amazing.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, I remember I've seen a movie about a group of Japanese people just before WWII erupted. I can't remember much of the details, but I was surprised that there were so many Japanese in America before WWII.

@CopperKettle Amazing indeed.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's all relative, I suppose

Damkerng T.

I think I'm going to enjoy my new pump (and test drive it in the process). BBL

CopperKettle

05:26

CYA

Anonymous

The Japanese population in the US was and is significant, but much smaller than many other ethnic groups

Anonymous

And mostly concentrated in those areas physically closest to Japan: Hawaii and the Pacific coast

CopperKettle

I heard that it was semi-prohibited to immigrate into the US for asian nationalities

Anonymous

Hmm, well, I'm rather ignorant when it comes to history

Anonymous

I can't explain about that in detail

Anonymous

05:27

Do you know more?

CopperKettle

I can google up

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, I remember now!

CopperKettle

1952 Walter–McCarran Act Nullified all federal anti-Asian exclusion laws;[9] allowed for naturalization of all Asians.[10]

Immigration history of Asian Americans

Asian Americans having historically been in the territory that would become the United States since the 16th century have experienced difficulties in the past in immigrating to, and becoming naturalized citizens. This article lists legislation, as well as judicial rulings, which restricted and expanded immigration from Asia. == Legislation == 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act Cessation of immigration from China. 1917 Asiatic Barred Zone Act Cessation of immigration to the U.S. from mostly Asian countries, including the region of British India. 1924 Immigration Act of 1924 limited quota based immigration...

Anonymous

Wow, that's complicated

CopperKettle

Here, in some districts of the city there's quite a lot of Central Asian people who came in the recent 10 years. Yekaterinburg was quite a caucasian city before that.

Now you can even see a black person now and then on the street (like 5 times a year).

Anonymous

05:30

Wow! That's infrequent.

CopperKettle

Yes. (0:

Locals call the Central Asian people "blocks of wood" (churka/churki), a derogatory term

Anonymous

Yikes!

CopperKettle

Yes..

I don't like it.

Anonymous

To celebrate the new year:

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

05:37

They did a survey to find out what things people liked most and liked the least about music

Anonymous

Then they attempted to combine everything people hated into one song

CopperKettle

So far it's not that bad (0:

Anonymous

Among the things they combined: bagpipes, accordions, opera singing, rapping, commercial jingles, cowboy lyrics, wild veering between slow and fast sections, philosophy, and political ranting

CopperKettle

There's a hilariously bad New Year song in Russian that got parodied across the world after it featured in a Russian TV program called "Sh*t-Parade"

►

Anonymous

And the song itself being really long is another thing people disliked

CopperKettle

05:40

I liked the German parody

►

Novy God is "New Year" in Russian (0:

And the name of the group, Steklovata, is "glass wool" (0:

Anonymous

Hee

CopperKettle

Steklo = glass, vata = cotton wool

@snailboat A nice music, really

@snailboat Reminds me of some of Zappa's compositions

Like "The Return Of The Son Of Monster Magnet"

@snailboat Here's a caricature featuring nationalist Russians saying "those [blocks of wood] are overruning the place!"

maxpark.com/user/2661687724/content/1436948

The nationalists' heads are shaped like blocks of wood

CopperKettle

06:20

@snailboat I like repeating poems in my mind on bicycle rides. It's dangerous to wear headphones, espeically on roads, and could be boring just to stare around. And talking is okay during stops mostly, since riding in pairs is a no-no on roads and wearisome to passers-by on sidewalks. So I take a couple of poems each time. Yesterday we rode for several hours, so I repeated The Character of a Happy Life by Wotton.

I guess it's the New Year moment over there, Snailboat, so congrats again and goodbye!

CopperKettle

06:34

A very interesting question:

1

Q: The use of the definite article

The two men appeared out of nowhere, a few yards apart in the narrow, moonlit lane. -Chapter 1 of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: The Dark Lord According to this web site, English native speakers use the definite article in front of a noun when they believe the hearer/reader knows ex...

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Thanks! Eighty-five minutes left … :-)

Damkerng T.

07:12

@snailboat Yes, it was that pump!

Damkerng T.

07:31

Anonymous

07:42

@DamkerngT. It seems that the link doesn't work

Damkerng T.

Ah! -- sad

I got the image from this store(?): loveitsomuch.com/stores/…

The dharma dolls say: 謹賀新年

Anonymous

07:58

Yay!

Damkerng T.

謹賀新年!

URL:

http://linksservice.com/chinese-new-year-2015-sheep/photo.elsoar.com*wp-content‌*images*2015-new-year-card-with-red-sheep.jpg/photo.elsoar.com*2015chinesenewyear‌withsheeps.html/

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…

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