English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

19:00

nods

I think I understand them better now.

Anonymous

@Fantasier Are you interested in Japanese linguistics?

Anonymous

I happened across a pretty interesting article that gives one explanation for Martin's essive ni / Vovin's copular n-i as the continuative form of a reconstructed "locative BE" verb n-u, which the author uses to explain how the conjunctive te (< t-e < t-u, continuative form of the perfect auxiliary reanalyzed as a conjunctive particle) follows ni, in e.g. ni-te ar-i > de ar-u > d'a

Anonymous

scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/19851/…

Anonymous

It's just one hypothesized reconstruction, but I think it's pretty neat :-)

Anonymous

It doesn't seem to account for adnominal n-o, but it does seem pretty plausible

Damkerng T.

19:03

It says "Pre Japanese".

Anonymous

Yes, as in before Old Japanese

Damkerng T.

Wow, in what period are we talking about?

Anonymous

The author was attempting to reconstruct some pre-OJ forms which might give a hint as to the genetic status of Japanese

Anonymous

More than two thousand years ago

Damkerng T.

Woow!

Hmm... they could find some evidences from two thousand years ago in Japanese too?

Anonymous

19:06

Unfortunately, no. These forms can only be reconstructed and are unattested, so it remains a hypothesis

Damkerng T.

That's very exceptional.

Ahh

Anonymous

Unless some very surprising archaeological discoveries are made, the language simply wasn't preserved more than 1600 years ago, although there are some remnants from very early contact with other civilizations (e.g. with China)

Fantasier

@snailboat Oh, yes, I will be! But not now, I think.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

The oldest written records are from circa 700 A.D. for Japanese, I think

Fantasier

19:08

Hmm, I should bookmark that for later when I am fairly familiar with the language.

Anonymous

With indirect evidence existing before that time

Damkerng T.

Random topic: How should we read “x^2.5”?

Fantasier

0

Q: Duplicate tags [adjective] and [adjectives]

I just noticed form this question that we have both [adjective] and [adjectives]. This is strange because in this question hints that [adjectives] can't have been created because of the prior existence of [adjective]. Anyway, I think they should be merged.

Damkerng T.

"x to the two point five"?

Anonymous

Various ways. "Ecks to the two point fifth power", for example

Damkerng T.

19:10

Oh, that sounds neat!

Anonymous

"Ecks raised to the power of two point five"

Anonymous

"Ecks raised to two point five"

Anonymous

"Ecks to the power of two point five"

Damkerng T.

Ahh... with raised to, the isn't really needed, I think.

Anonymous

It's power that requires the

Damkerng T.

19:13

@Fantasier The tag [adjectives] is new, I think.

@snailboat Thanks!

Hmm... When we name a tag, which of the singular or plural form is preferred?

Anonymous

Sometimes people say things like "ecks to the fifth ~~power~~" omitting power

Fantasier

There's no general preference here yet (or maybe still) :o

Damkerng T.

(I usually use singular, but sometimes I use plural myself too, like [books].)

Fantasier

12

Q: Should we prefer plural in tags?

Earlier today I tried to tag a question "nouns", and the system wouldn't let me, saying that the tag noun already existed. Just a minute ago, I wanted to tag another question "adjectives", same problem: adjective already exists. I am used to the plural form from other SE sites — ELU, GLU, and L...

discussion tags tag-synonyms

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Then, which one is better? "Ecks to the two point five" or "Ecks to the two point fifth"?

Anonymous

19:15

The plural seems more generic to me. This question is about adjectives. This question is about adjective (??)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, the former one doesn't have power, even implicitly, so I would remove the

Damkerng T.

Ahh... nods

Fantasier

Somehow I feel saying that in English is more po-wah-ful than in Thai :P I mean, it's POWER.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I usually remember it as กำลัง (literally power). :)

So, in a sense, I use "power" the way people say "times" or "plus".

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Ah, talking about maths, what do you think of the coinages ปฏิยานุพันธุ์ for integrals and อนุพันธุ์ for derivatives?

Damkerng T.

19:19

อนุพันธุ์ is fine.

ปฏิยานุพันธุ์ sounds weird. :D

Fantasier

Personally I think they seem 'too much'.

Damkerng T.

nods

Fantasier

We don't really need to coin everything do we?

Anonymous

How do you say differintegral?

Damkerng T.

I think we called it อินติกรัล in my school days.

@snailboat Eh? Do we have that?

Fantasier

19:20

ปฏิยานุพันธุ์จำกัดเขต I think

Damkerng T.

The bounded ones?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Sure!

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's from fractional calculus. I haven't really learned it. I was lucky!

Anonymous

Haven't you ever wondered what the Nth integral or derivative of a function is?

Fantasier

Oh, well, that's not it. I don't think we have a coinage for that.

Anonymous

19:22

Like, you probably noticed that every time you integrate or differentiate a sinusoidal function it translates by π/2

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

So that every four integrals or derivatives, you end up with the original function.

Anonymous

And so it's straightforward to suggest that you can have a half-integral by translating it only π/4. And so on.

Damkerng T.

Oh, the chat room deleted my second nods automatically.

Anonymous

Calculating in closed form the nth derivative is simple enough for that sort of function.

Anonymous

19:23

@DamkerngT. Yeah, 'cause SE chat is a hack! ;-)

Anonymous

Because it's simple and cyclic.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat This reminds me of fractional factorials.

Anonymous

You might have also noticed when doing simple calculus with polynomials that you end up with factorial coefficients/powers.

Damkerng T.

That's true!

Anonymous

And of course, you can interpolate factorials with Γ!

Anonymous

19:24

Anyway, it's neat stuff.

Damkerng T.

Euler is awesome, isn't he?!

Anonymous

0

Q: Why using only one **a** is enough in this sentence?

"... Leonardo da Vinci became renowned for his multiple talents: he was a painter, architect, engineer, mathematician and inventor." In the above-mentioned sentence why only one "a" has been used even for words that begin with a vowel?

grammar

Fantasier

yesterday, by snailboat

@Fantasier Conjunction reduction

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think you mentioned something like this to Fantasier yesterday.

Anonymous

:-)

Fantasier

19:26

:)

Damkerng T.

That's the one. :D

Anonymous

And because the allomorph an only surfaces with an immediately following vowel, not depending on the form of a following head noun

Anonymous

There's no syntactic relation, just a relationship to the following sound

Anonymous

So "even for words that begin with a vowel" is a bit of a red herring

Damkerng T.

nods

I don't know if we could find a reference that mentions this red herring case.

Anonymous

19:27

Any explanation of the a/an alternation will do

Anonymous

This is my friend's calico:

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

Ohhhh.... Sooo cute!

Hey, I guess that he has a tummy bag like my Hagu too!

Anonymous

Hee.

Anonymous

I think it's a girl, though. Calicos are almost always female cats.

Damkerng T.

19:31

Oh!

Anonymous

→ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calico_cat#Genetics

Anonymous

> Calico cats are almost always female because the X chromosome determines the color of the cat, and female cats—much like all female mammals—have two X chromosomes, whereas male mammals, including common male cats, have one X and one Y chromosome.[2][8][10]

Anonymous

> Since the Y chromosome does not have any color genes, there is no chance he could have both orange and non-orange together.

Damkerng T.

Oh... Interesting!

> In the United States, these are sometimes referred to as money cats

Anonymous

In Japanese, they're called mi-ke-neko (lit. "three-fur cat") :-)

Anonymous

19:34

I wonder sometimes how animals arrived all over the world.

Damkerng T.

I think in Thai, we sometimes call them three-color cats.

Anonymous

Cats were in Japan thousands of years ago, it seems.

Anonymous

I wonder how they got there.

Damkerng T.

Mostly, because of human beings. :D

Anonymous

Yeah, I assume the cats didn't build boats themselves. :-)

Anonymous

19:35

Thailand, at least, has land borders.

Anonymous

And I can't imagine cats swimming for miles upon miles. Certain animals surprisingly can swim pretty well.

Damkerng T.

nods -- It has!

I can't imagine cats swimming for meters upon meters. :D

Anonymous

→ languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2282#comment-65613

Anonymous

> "How long would it take a sheep to sink?" was a question posed to East Bay librarians. According to a story by Elaine Marshall in Diablo magazine, the librarians couldn't come up with an answer.

Anonymous

> Personals consulted experts at UC Davis Veterinary Extension. Dr. Ben Norman said that sheep "do very well" in the water. "They have a rumen, a big gas bag stomach, that keeps them from sinking. They float high and swim well."

Anonymous

19:37

> Cows have a similar stomach structure to sheep, said Norman. As soon as the rumen develops, the animal is kept afloat by its natural life preserver. At least half the cows stranded on an offshore island in Hurricane Carla 30 years ago were able to survive by swimming three to seven miles to the shore, said the veterinarian.

Anonymous

> Dr. John Glenn was a little less enthusiastic. "The only times they ever get into the water is when they cross steams. . . . They float but they are not Olympic swimmers." Wet fleece is not an important factor, said Glenn. "I have never heard of a sheep drowning unless it was trapped under water upside down."

Damkerng T.

There are a few things that will make Hahu run away asap. Water is one of them.

Anonymous

> How long would it take a sheep to sink? Glenn's official answer: "A long time."

Anonymous

> (After spending countless hours researching ovine aquatic capabilities, Personals was struck by a blinding revelation: The caller probably wanted to know, "How long does it take a ship to sink?")

Damkerng T.

LOL

I still wonder whether bananas float or not.

(According to one officer in Life of Pi, bananas won't float.)

1

A: What does "you could have" mean exactly? (I'm confused)

"you could have" = "you should do that in the past" No, it doesn't mean that :) It means that there you had the possibility to do something in the past, but it did not happen. And that meaning fits all your examples: You could have done better on your exam. -> you had the possibility ...

> "you could have" = "you should do that in the past" No, it doesn't mean that :)
It means that there you had the possibility to do something in the past, but it did not happen.

I disagree; I think "you should do that in the past" implies that.

oerkelens

19:44

If you read the reast of the question, you see the problem with implying obligation

ÿou should do that in the past"implies obligation

Damkerng T.

At least I think "ahmed anwar" thought that.

oerkelens

And "you could have" does not normally imply obligation

Damkerng T.

Hmm...

oerkelens

That is why he ran into trouble with sentences that cannot imply that

like "you could have upset her"

The possibility was there, it did not happen, but the speaker does not imply that you should hav eupset her

Damkerng T.

I couldn't find that bounty question.

Was that question (by ZZ) deleted?

oerkelens

19:48

Which one?

Damkerng T.

The one that discusses would, could, and might.

And there was a bounty on it a few days ago.

oerkelens

aaah... saw something like that passing by

did it go to ELU maybe?

Damkerng T.

Strange. It's a great question for ELL.

Oh, it's here: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/22493/…

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I awarded the two bounties I left.

Damkerng T.

@oerkelens I agree with this point, though.

@snailboat Before 7 days, I think. :D

Obviously, I haven't counted the days.

Anonymous

19:57

@DamkerngT. There was like one day left.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

I kept thinking about it for a while.

I think, when someone says, "X could have Y"...

It roughly means, "I think X should have Y ..." or "I think if X did Y, the consequence should be ..."

Anonymous

Or "X could have Yed if they wanted to"

Anonymous

And so on. Various meanings can be inferred from context

Damkerng T.

I tried to cover that with "I think". :D

Agree. Adding if they wanted to makes the possibility less attached to the opinion.

In other words, it turns the meaning closer to "I think X should be possible or able to have Y"

One think I like about should, from a learner point of view, is that it makes it rather clear that this should is a speculation of the speaker.

Not X.

And probably, should is easier to learn by learners.

Damkerng T.

20:37

Is this normal in Indian English? The phrasing sounds odd in American English although I can surmise the meaning from the individual words. — Denise Skidmore 3 hours ago

Probably the first comment that really makes sense in that question.

Anonymous

21:44

@DamkerngT. It just sounds "literary" to me

Damkerng T.

I'm not even sure what the reader would understand of it.

> "(15) Hrishikesha [Krishna] blew the Panchajanya and Dhananjaya [Arjuna] the Devadatta, while the wolf-bellied Bhima of dread deeds sounded his great conch Paundra.

Out of the four translations I found, this is the only one that uses the word "dread".

(And "wolf-bellied", whatever that means.)

Anonymous

It's a fair question. I'll grant that the meaning isn't plain as day.

Damkerng T.

Actually, this of dread deeds is from a word which English has borrowed too.

of dread deeds was from "Karma".

Anonymous

Oh?

Damkerng T.

> pancajanyam--the conchshell named Pancajanya; hrsika-isah--Hrsikesa (Krsna, the Lord who directs the senses of the devotees); devadattam--the conchshell named Devadatta; dhanam-jayah--Dhananjaya (Arjuna, the winner of wealth); paundram--the conch named Paundra; dadhmau--blew; maha-sankham--the terrific conchshell; bhima-karma--one who performs herculean tasks; vrka-udarah--the voracious eater (Bhima).

[Bhima of dread deed] was from bhima-karma

Bhima is a name.

That gloss suggests that karma ~ "who performs herculean tasks"

In my Thai version, it was translated as "who performs great deeds/tasks"

I don't know why it became "dread deeds" in Gandhi's version.

Anonymous

21:54

Dread once meant "held in awe; awful; revered"

Damkerng T.

So, even though I have all four translations, I'd avoid answering that question myself.

hellodear

Hello Sir

I want you help if you can.

:)

Damkerng T.

What is that?!

hellodear

I have installed ubuntu in momodeset mode.

and I have to add additional drivers

What should I choose now

I have given u a screen shot.

Damkerng T.

@hellodear I really have no idea on this one.

Anonymous

21:56

Compare awful / awesome / awestruck

Anonymous

With negative and positive meanings

hellodear

:'_

Damkerng T.

It looks like you could try one, and then try another if the one you choose doesn't work.

Anonymous

@hellodear Oh, no! Your face fell over!

hellodear

Haha

:)

eww!! too mant retries when chatting

Damkerng T.

21:58

However, your screen looks quite alright already.

Anonymous

Yeah, the retries are bad UI.

Anonymous

And bad back-end coding. There should never be duplicate messages, and you should never actively need to retry.

Anonymous

(It could show you an option to cancel if it hasn't gone through for a while, though.)

hellodear

my ubuntu screen is strechted

Like it is not fitting everything

as it does on my PC

Damkerng T.

You mean, your pixels look a bit blurry, I guess.

Or its aspect ratio seems false.

hellodear

22:02

what should I do

Damkerng T.

@hellodear If that's the case, I will check the mode Windows 8 uses first. (I bet that it displays in the optimal resolution.) Then use xrandr to see whether that mode is listed or not. If it's listed, then I will force Ubuntu to use that mode.

hellodear

windows is working fine

ubuntu is not fitting everything

Damkerng T.

Yay! So duplicate that mode.

hellodear

how>

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You can find the monitor's native resolution without checking Windows.

Damkerng T.

22:06

For example, if I want to force my Ubuntu to display in 800x600 with 74 Hz refresh rate, I will use this command: xrandr -s 800x600 -r 74.

Anonymous

crystal@wings:~$ xdpyinfo | grep dimensions
dimensions: 1920x1080 pixels (406x228 millimeters)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat How? I don't know how?

Oh, neat!

@snailboat I suspect that that dread was used in the sense of formidable or majestic.

Oh, nice. One synonym of majestic is awe-inspiring.

And one synonym of formidable is awesome.

And one synonym of awesome is dreaded.

hellodear

Somebody told me to select

3rd option in that

now it is not loading desktop of ubuntu

How to make it back

help me

Damkerng T.

It won't boot?

hellodear

it is booting

asking me password

and then it is not loading desktop

Damkerng T.

22:16

Oh, X doesn't load.

hellodear

X means'

Damkerng T.

But you can still access the command-line, right?

hellodear

how?

I think no

Damkerng T.

It asked you a password, and then what happened (after you entered the password)?

hellodear

nothing'

just I have cursor which me

Damkerng T.

22:18

Eh?

hellodear

on empty screen

Damkerng T.

Try to boot into safe mode. See: askubuntu.com/a/172346/230451

hellodear

then?

Damkerng T.

How is it like, now?

hellodear

I have to reboot

tell me after that what should I do

Damkerng T.

22:23

At least, get the prompt. Having the full graphics UI is better.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, along those lines is what I was suggesting.

hellodear

in recovery mode it is asking me variuos things

what should I do

I believed someone on ask ubuntu chats

And he had made everything finished

@DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

22:54

@hellodear Finished, as in happy ending?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The example you linked to is slightly different, because an X and Y chromosome could be easily interpreted as an [X and Y] chromosome, but M.N's sentence has no such ambiguity

Anonymous

Although the reduction is still possible with that ambiguity

Damkerng T.

I found the term mentioned in JL's answer.

Maybe it's one link away.

Frankly, I couldn't find any reference on the web.

I mean, the one that is specific to indefinite article ellipsis.

Damkerng T.

23:19

1

Q: Could vs. was able to

A grammar book says that in the following sentences we must not use "could" instead of "was/were able to". The fire spread through the building very quickly, but everyone was able to escape. They didn't want to come with us at first, but finally we were able to persuade them However, when I s...

grammar

This is a very interesting question!

Anonymous

Well, any good description will be more general than that, I think.

Damkerng T.

Yes. I browsed PEU a little, and I think for this case, it is not adequate.

But it's basically in line with what the OP said.

Anonymous

I still haven't read the whole chapter on coordination in CGEL.

Anonymous

You know, I favor an analysis of coordination without ellipsis

Anonymous

I think sometimes the ellipsis explanation is easier for people to grasp, so I go for it first

Damkerng T.

23:27

Oh! You mean for this a X, Y, and Z case?

X is not a good letter here, but well, I think you know what I mean.

Anonymous

I meant in general, but yes, in this case, too

Anonymous

Following Zwicky, we could say it's a [X, Y, and Z]

Anonymous

Rather than a X, a Y, and a Z

Anonymous

There are a lot of tiny reasons you might want to do so.

Damkerng T.

A lot? -- curious

Anonymous

23:33

Well, the most straightforward example of coordination that's not obviously explicable through ellipsis would be like:

Anonymous

> 1. [ Kim and Pat ] are a happy couple.
> 2. *Kim is a happy couple. *Pat is a happy couple.

Damkerng T.

Oh, 2 is weird.

Anonymous

> Leonardo da Vinci became renowned for his multiple talents: he was a [ painter, architect, engineer, mathematician and inventor ].

Anonymous

Here, we can match each coordinate up with the part that's been "factored out":

Anonymous

> He was a painter, he was an architect, … and he was an inventor.

Damkerng T.

23:35

Your argument is quite convincing!

Anonymous

We can call this "distributive coordination" and say that it's the most common kind, on analogy to math (the distributive property)

Anonymous

(The same kind of analogy we use when we say "he was a" has been factored out)

Anonymous

Whereas "Kim and Pat are a happy couple" is an example of what CGEL calls joint coordination

Anonymous

(Bolding is so fun! I wish I could bold all day long)

Damkerng T.

:)

Anonymous

23:37

The difference being that it applies to [ Kim and Pat ] jointly, whereas the properties ascribed to da Vinci each work individually

Anonymous

It makes more sense to say that the coordinates were put together and THEN placed into the sentence:

Anonymous

> X is a happy couple | X = "Kim and Pat"

Anonymous

The other one we can explain by saying it came from a bunch of individual sentences first, and then was reduced to one.

Anonymous

But there are reasons we might not want to.

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