« first day (494 days earlier)      last day (405 days later) » 

16:35
1
Q: Is "singular noun + and + singular noun" singular or plural?

Zhanlong ZhengWhen I type "[singular noun] and [singular noun]" in Word 2010, I find some interesting things. Bread and butter is essential. (the auto-correction warns me of subject-verb disagreement.) Bread and butter are essential. (OK) A knife and fork is on the table. (OK) A knife and fork are...

Examples 3, 5, and 7 don't sound good to me.
Don't sound good to me either.
I can think of examples taking asingular verb, though
> A thread and needle is used
> Cost and revenue is linked to our tax
> A knife and fork is a must
Hmm why do a thread and needle is used and a knife and fork is a must sound good to you whilst 3 and 5 don't?
Using Hellion's argument, in those sentences I can think of the subject as single entity.
Anonymous
@Nico Sometimes it's singular, sometimes it's plural. We have questions about this already, I think
Anonymous
16:43
Most commonly plural, but if you conceptualize them as singular, singular agreement is possible
Anonymous
> Drinking and driving is/are a dangerous combination.
> Drinking and driving *is/are two different things.
Interesting :o
Anonymous
You'll find some disagreement among speakers on the edge cases
Anonymous
You could see Heidi Lorimor's dissertation, Conjunctions and Grammatical Agreement
But in examples 3, 5, and 7 I'm struggling to picture the subjects as a single entity. In particular, in 7, if "linked" is lining "cost" and "revenue" then the subject is plural.
Anonymous
Can you quote the relevant examples here?
> 3. A knife and fork is on the table.
> 5. The needle and thread is new.
> 7. Cost and revenue is directly linked.
Anonymous
Are, is/are, are
Anonymous
Those are my personal judgments
lurking...
16:48
I'm still curious. Why not a knife and a fork in 3.? Is a knife and fork something idiomatic?
Perhaps because it's like "Fish and chips is a hot dish of English origin, ..."?
Well if we read it like that wouldn't it be is, not are?
Hmm... interesting.
Btw, I think some speakers always say "Fish and chips are ..."
I'd say Fish and chips is (but never had the chance to say)
Me either. I had a chance to say "Two fish and chips" a few times, though. :)
@Fantasier Agree. I think win in this hypothetical scenario is tricky.
> Bread and butter is essential. (the auto-correction warns me of subject-verb disagreement.)
Oh, nice. They have it built-in!
(Obviously, I don't use Word.)
I'm sure I will get some wrong. 1, 4, 6, 8.
checking out Hellion's answer...
Ahh... I see. He visualizes bread and butter as two things. That's fair. Perhaps, it's more logical for that sentence.
17:03
IMO any programmed grammar checker is virtually totally useless.
I think totally could break someone's heart. :)
Well I did put virtually before totally :P
Ah, it's better than I thought then, I think, it could just break someone's heart, virtually. :D
Btw, good evening!
(Umm... maybe good morning)
But the sun isn't out yet.
True, true. What should I do? What should I do?
How about, good darkness?
17:07
Ehhh. Seems Thai-ish enough.
Anonymous
@Fantasier Conjunction reduction
@snailboat Oh, it works in cases like this too? Good to know, good to know. Thanks!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Do they? I know there are about equal examples of singular and plural agreement with fish and chips, but I've never verified anything about idiolectal variation
17:09
@snailboat I'm not that sure, but it looks kinda like that.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Singular and plural are both possible here
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. What evidence have you uncovered?
Anonymous
@Fantasier Word's is certainly useless.
@snailboat My Frankfurter friends. :D
Anonymous
17:11
Automatic "grammar checkers" should be used by competent speakers who can determine for themselves whether a construction is grammatical or not
Anonymous
They shouldn't be used as actual evidence, just a hint that something may be wrong
Anonymous
As for me, I use neither grammar nor spelling checkers
Anonymous
I've always wanted to write a better grammar checker, but of course doing so is Hard :-)
I would say it's virtually impossible.
Anonymous
17:13
Oh, I doubt that
But we could come up with something really, really close, I think.
Anonymous
Oh
Anonymous
Then we're using words differently
Anonymous
All I said is "better" :-)
Anonymous
Not "perfect"!
17:13
Hehe.
Anonymous
There are a number of projects I've had in the back of my mind for years
Ah my twitter feed is being flooded with #WWDC.
@snailboat You didn't say which one of them, so I just assume the best we could possibly have.
@Fantasier Oh, so you follow it!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. I don't follow
@DamkerngT. I don't. But all people I follow seem to.
17:15
Cheerio! (making like a tree and leaving)
@Nico Cheerio!
(I got that word from an anime. Strange.)
Anonymous
Or, in the words of the great Biff Tannen
@snailboat Eh, I meant the best "grammar or spelling checkers" we could possibly have, out there in some NLP labs.
Anonymous
I watched it before, and I didn't know he said that!
Oh, I couldn't imagine how much I had missed in movies.
17:18
@snailboat brilliant! I bet you had the video link already prepared!
By the way, anyone here is gonna enjoy the coming up World Cup?
I never cared about sports :P
(nor celebrities)
Anonymous
Playing sports is good. Watching sports is boring.
Anonymous
I say this even though I don't play sports. :-)
Hi all
Anonymous
17:21
Hello, Ice Girl! Welcome back to ELL chat!
:)
Thanks
:D
@Fantasier If possible, you could post some updates on WWDC here.
@snailboat Kinda like a paradox.
Hello @IceGirl!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Well, if I did more physical activity, I'd be in better shape! That can't be a bad thing.
Anonymous
Right now I've got the treadmill
Anonymous
17:23
I can read books while I'm on a treadmill
Please make a good use out of it. :D
Nice!
@snailboat Umm... :-)
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. People think that's weird! I don't know why :-)
Anonymous
Another good use for treadmill time is listening practice
17:23
...
Anonymous
My treadmill has speakers, and you can plug in a tablet or phone
trying to imagine reading a book on a treadmill...
Ahh... That's how!
Anonymous
Well, when I was a teenager I started reading books while walking around. Especially on trails where there's nothing much in front of you, it's not particularly dangerous :-)
I think I've done that before (reading a book on a treadmill)
Anonymous
But it's slightly safer on a treadmill because you won't ever trip over something or run into someone :-)
17:25
And a lot of that (reading a book while walking)
Anonymous
Another thing I used to do a lot of is flashcards while walking around.
Anonymous
I have literally thousands of physical flashcards for Japanese.
Anonymous
But I don't do many flashcards these days
They could be a mini-tome!
Anonymous
17:26
I think most people would rather do virtual flashcards on a phone or such these days.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Actually, if you stack them together they're over a meter of flashcards.
Hah! gasping...
Anonymous
I have something like 10,000 flashcards in Anki, too
Anonymous
But somehow I feel the ones you write by hand are much more helpful
Anki is a program, right?
Anonymous
17:27
Yes
Anonymous
It is a flashcard program
Anonymous
I put too much time into using it, I think :-)
@snailboat Oh, I thought Anki on iPhone could be handier.
Sounds like it's the opposite for you.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Well, it's much more convenient using a flashcard program on a phone.
Anonymous
But I don't think it's as good for one's memory.
17:29
nods
Anonymous
Taking note on paper likewise seems to be more helpful than on a computer
Could you tell me more about the difference?
Anonymous
But it's so much easier on a computer! ;-)
Anonymous
Yes but I'm about to eat
Well, after the meal!
Enjoy your meal, btw.
It's a breakfast, perhaps.
Anonymous
17:31
Perhaps! I rarely use breakfast countably
Oh! Does it sound wrong to you?
Anonymous
I've put a lot of time into learning and various language learning methods over the last 16 years, and I've done a lot of things inefficiently
Anonymous
It sounds very unusual.
nods -- I see. Thanks!
Anonymous
A lot of learners, you'll find, end up obsessed with finding the most efficient method
Anonymous
17:33
And try to optimize everything. And you'll find lots of opinions about efficiency and learning methods.
Anonymous
I think that sometimes you end up with false optimization.
Perhaps myself included, though it's not for myself, mostly.
@snailboat I'm listening. curious
Anonymous
For example, taking notes on a computer takes much less time. You can type a lot more much faster and get it out of the way.
Anonymous
But I think that by reducing the amount of time it takes, you reduce the amount of time you're really focusing on it and forcing it through your brain
Anonymous
17:34
What's more, when you write, because it's slow you tend to transform the information into a representation of your own design
Anonymous
When you type, it's easier to reproduce something verbatim, which is less effective
We can doodle on paper too.
Anonymous
There've been a number of studies over the years showing that people, the same people, are paradoxically less effective note takers on computers than with paper, even though taking notes is much easier on computers.
Anonymous
I think Anki is also less effective than people think it is.
Strange that I agree with that--"less effective note takers on computers than with paper".
nods
Anonymous
17:36
Paper flashcards, which are much slower to make, impossible to organize as effectively, and cumbersome to carry around
Anonymous
Nonetheless, I feel I've committed things to memory much more reliably with than with computerized flashcards
Anonymous
There are a lot of factors that could go into explaining why.
Anonymous
But I'm not certain which are right.
Oh, I think some learners don't even have to build their own cards in their Flashcard apps.
Anonymous
I will say this, in retrospect: Anki is best used for things you barely ever see or have a lot of trouble learning
Anonymous
17:38
This is probably less than 5% of the vocabulary you pick up
Anonymous
Everything else you'll have reinforced naturally as you use the language to a sufficient extent
Like, rare words, perhaps.
Anonymous
Likewise, mnemonic devices of all sorts can be useful, but I think they're only necessary in a rather small percent of cases
I haven't found many mnemonic devices in language learning.
Do we have a lot of them?
Anonymous
17:39
Another thing I've found flashcards very helpful for is quizzing myself on the difference between two things.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Some people rely very heavily on them.
@snailboat Between what and what? Paper cards and Anki?
Anonymous
I think that the best way to learn a language is to use it all the time.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. No, no, say, the difference between two words that I tend to mix up.
@snailboat That's probably a great way.
@snailboat Ahh... I see.
17:42
@snailboat Hmm, how do we do that in early stages of language learning, when we can't even produce a sentence?
Anonymous
@Fantasier Learning a language does require a fair amount of bootstrapping! :-)
@snailboat I usually compare language learning to sports. (You already know this.) I think using it all the time is like competing in tournaments all the time.
I think we can do some drills besides competing in matches to improve something we couldn't have from just playing in matches.
But playing a lot, helps.
Anonymous
I personally enjoy studying grammar
Me too. I found reciting tasks boring. :P
When someone asked me to teach their kids to swim, I will start from floating. :D
And sinking. :D
Knowing how to sink well is very important.
Anonymous
17:44
I can sink.
Anonymous
In high school, I was made to swim, even though I didn't know how.
Anonymous
They threw me in the deep end of the pool, and I sank like a rock.
Anonymous
Then they jumped in and pulled me out :-)
Oh, that wasn't very nice.
The first time I learned to swim was just like that.
And I'd become afraid of water even more.
Anonymous
17:46
Actually, I was just talking to a German acquaintance of mine who started learned Japanese in sink-or-swim fashion.
A-ha! What did they say?
Anonymous
He went to Japan to study, and was supposed to have a year of Japanese classes starting out to prepare him for studying in Japanese
Anonymous
But when he got there, he found that he'd been registered for normal Japanese classes
A year, just to prepare?
Anonymous
And he had to learn very rapidly to keep up :-)
Anonymous
17:47
That is, classes in Japanese
And the survival instinct kicked in, I guess.
Anonymous
He managed to swim when thrown into the deep end of the pool :-)
Anonymous
He's fluent in a number of languages.
Good for him!
Anonymous
It was over a year before I found out he wasn't a native speaker of English
17:48
Ahh... so Japanese isn't his second language.
Oh! That's something.
Perhaps he'd already known how to learn a new language.
Anonymous
Some people are very good at learning languages.
nods
I've seen many people could learn how to swim? 25m in a day before.
Though I won't call that swimming.
Anonymous
I'm not very good at learning languages, myself, but I love language and I'm persistent :-)
Ahh.. A polyglot!
Me either.
Anonymous
17:50
S'kind of like how I'm a terrible writer, but I keep working on it anyway… ;-)
I'm not particularly gifted in learning languages.
Me neither.
Absolutely an average Joe, I think. :D
@snailboat Come to think of it, I haven't really seen your writing that is really long, except for long answers on ELL. :D
But I trust my gut feeling that your writing is more than fine. :-)
@Fantasier Btw, how did you come up with the guy? You knew him from his work?
@DamkerngT. I knew him from a Fun Fact in my English coursebook :)
Ahh... That's nice!
Fun Fact could be, well, fun!
17:56
Actually I wasn't able to remember his name, so I needed to search "58 language linguist" on Google.
0
A: Title capitalization of hyphenated words

CodeswitcherCapitalize them both. Object-[O]riented Programming

Based on...? It would be nice if you cited something authoritative to support your answer. Otherwise, perhaps it should just be a comment. — J.R. ♦ yesterday
Hmm...
3
A: Can I use once instead of after?

Jasper LoyThe sentence is correct using either after or once.

Hmm...
@DamkerngT. I agree.
@DamkerngT. I also agree that it would be nice, but without references it's fine, still.
I guess "to cite or not to cite" is the question.
You mean for them both?
Anonymous
18:01
I disagree that answers should be comments when they're short.
Anonymous
Answers should be answers.
The first one got a downvote, probably because its poster didn't cite anything.
Hmm, I think the first one depends on the preferred style, so whether there's a citation or not may not be really important, but it'd be nice to have one.
Anonymous
"Object-oriented Programming" just looks funny
Anonymous
18:03
People talk about OOP all the time, but OoP? No.
Anonymous
OP? No.
But we also have POS.
Yeah.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Oriented is neither short nor a function word
nods -- In that question, I think Maulik pointed out a good point.
Though it's probably already mentioned somewhere else on ELL.
Because J.R.'s comment got two upvotes, this probably means that at least 3 avid users of ELL don't like short answers.
In other words, short answers aren't answers. Short answers are comments.
18:07
Well, maybe not, they may like the comment because they don't like it when there is no citation, not when it's short.
Agree. It might not mean what I asserted.
Yes. That's fine. — jimsug yesterday
I would say that this is an answer as well, imo. :)
That and the sentence is correct using either after or once. are pretty much the same thing. LOL
nods :)
They are answers; they answer the question; but they are not perfectly complete, I think.
Perhaps we should have a meta post about "How to answer questions on ELL".
1. Thou shalt not write short answers.
(Just kidding. :)
18:13
LOL
Why do people use (blah blah blah :) not (blah blah blah :))?
*serious face*
Perhaps, it's just me. :)
Anonymous
For the same reason people write etc. instead of etc..
Anonymous
The period absorbs the other period.
Interesting!
Anonymous
But smiley faces aren't really considered part of a standard orthography yet, so there's no consensus on whether they should do so.
Anonymous
18:15
So you find both forms used. :-) ) (with or without a space) and :-)
I observed some asymmetries in quotes of English, so maybe that's why I write those smileys that way.
I don't know how many times I have interesting'd and I-see'd since I first joined this chat.
This sequence is uncommon, I think --> abc.".
Like, He said, "Let's go there."
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. But you'll see it from time to time when the writer wants to emphasize that the period is part of the quote:
Anonymous
> Write "abc?" and "abc.". Do not write "abc#".
Anonymous
18:17
I think programmers do this sort of thing more often.
Ah, yes. I think I observed that too.
Perhaps in programming things are super-symmetrical.
@Fantasier I'm sure I nods'd more often. :D
Anonymous
@Fantasier In Nunberg's The Linguistics of Punctuation, he presents this concept of "absorption"
curious
Ah I looked the name up. The description seems interesting enough.
What do we call the text printed on the back of a book in order to advertise or introduce the book?
Anonymous
Nunberg goes against the traditional / orthodoxy description of writing, which is that it is merely an imperfect transcription of the real spoken language, and is uninteresting from a linguistic point of view
Anonymous
18:26
Blurb
Anonymous
Mar 23 at 5:39, by snailboat
> As Bloomfield famously put it, "Writing is not language, but merely a means of recording language by means of visual marks." ... The contrastive approach has militated against the development of the autonomous study of written language as a linguistic system in its own right. ... Indeed, current approaches to writing presuppose that there couldn't be much to say about the subject. ...
Anonymous
Mar 23 at 5:39, by snailboat
> It should no longer be necessary to defend the view that writing is truly language, ... The contrastive approach makes it difficult to consider those features of written texts that have no obvious analogues in speech, or whose spoken-language analogues are either theoretically marginal or poorly understood.
Anonymous
Mar 23 at 5:39, by snailboat
> In particular, linguists have almost wholly ignored the graphical circumstances of the written language, ... In a typical book, for example, written lexical expressions are presented in concert with punctuation marks ... It can of course be argued that many of these conventions are not part of the written language itself, ... But that argument has to be made on principled grounds.
Anonymous
All from the introduction to The Linguistics of Punctuation
I backstarred it.
Anonymous
18:29
Nunberg went on to co-author chapter 20, Punctuation, of CGEL
Oh, FANBOYS is one mnemonic device we use, I think.
Ahh
Anonymous
Yeah. Probably an imperfect one.
Anonymous
FANBOYS don't form a coherent category
Probably. It's quite adequate for learners, though, I think.
Anonymous
This morning I tried to assemble a categorization of NPIs in Japanese
Anonymous
18:31
There are a lot of different ways that people have approached them
Anonymous
I need to find more examples, still
That's not easy, I think.
Anonymous
But I've got a preliminary categorization
Anonymous
One step closer to Snailboat's Mostly Wrong Grammar of Japanese! ;-)
@snailboat That's an ambiguous title.
I'm not sure if you are trying to make what mostly wrong right or trying to make it more wrong. :D
18:35
@snailboat Oh, Thanks.
I spent some time reading those three quotes.
Anonymous
Oh, this is precious.
Anonymous
I didn't know that bromide could mean a calm person.
Anonymous
18:39
I don't think it typically does
Anonymous
Then again, bromide isn't a terribly common word.
I've heard it before.
Anonymous
When I first ran into it in a translation from Japanese, I thought "What the heck is a bromide?"
I'm sure I've heard it when I was in the lab.
Anonymous
When I was a teenager.
Anonymous
18:39
I knew bromide from chemistry, mind you.
Before I looked this bromide up, the only bromide I knew was in the lab, yeah.
Anonymous
But the word has other meanings.
Anonymous
And as a teenager I was entirely unaware of them.
Anonymous
So it was a memorable learning experience :-)
Anonymous
Actually, it's funny how often I've come across things in Japanese I didn't know in English :-)
18:41
It's noted old-fashioned though, in Macmillan.
Anonymous
One common category of words that differ in frequency between languages is that of living things, plants and animals
Anonymous
So for example the cormorant is called in Japanese u
Anonymous
But we don't really have cormorants here, so I'd never come across the word in English
Oh, just u?
Anonymous
Yes :-)
18:42
Hmm... Must be very common there.
Anonymous
ウ科(ウか、)は、鳥類カツオドリ目に属する科である。ウ(鵜)と総称される。別名はシャグ()。 ウ属 のみを置くこともあるが、複数属に分割することも多い。 名称 鵜を意味する英語の cormorant は、ラテン語の corvus marinus(「海のカラス」の意)に由来する。 漢字の「鵜」(テイ)は元々中国ではペリカンを意味し、「う」は国訓である。ウを意味する本来の漢字は「鸕」(ロ)である。 分布 アフリカ大陸、オーストラリア大陸、北アメリカ大陸、南アメリカ大陸、ユーラシア大陸、インドネシア、日本、ニュージーランド。 主に温帯域や熱帯域の河川や湖沼、海岸などに生息するが、ヒメウのような寒帯にも分布する種もいる。 特徴 形態 大形の水鳥で、全長48-100cm 。羽毛は浸水しやすい構造になっており、素早く潜水することができる。翼は小型で幅が広い。水中では翼が小型のため、水の抵抗が少なく泳ぐのに適している。ほとんどの種は飛翔できるが、ガラパゴスコバネウは翼が退化しており飛ぶことはできない。 嘴は長くて上嘴の先が鉤状に尖り、側面に鋸状の突起がある。これにより咥えた獲物が逃げにくくなっている。また嘴の基部に独特な形状の骨があり、これにより上下の嘴を別々に動かすことができる。喉の皮膚は袋状に伸びるが、あまり発達はしない。 喉の袋には毛細血管が集まっており...
Anonymous
They're pretty enough birds.
Anonymous
The cutest bird I learned about in Japanese was the chidori "plover"
Anonymous
Chidori, I've heard it from somewhere.
Anonymous
18:43
I know that it's used in some anime series I haven't seen. A friend told me about it.
I like plovers (or what I think of as plovers; I wasn't sure if they really were plovers).
Anonymous
Ah! It was Naruto.
Anonymous
I've never seen Naruto, but my friend who's taking Japanese classes loves it :-)
A-ha! That's why I've heard it!
I dislike Naruto.
18:44
trying to think of which episode, or how it was used in Naruto...
@Fantasier Oh, you don't like it?!
@DamkerngT. I dislike most Shounen Jump's manga series.
Ahh...
I read quite a lot of manga, but don't watch much anime :)
Anonymous
Ah, my friend loves it. Which is great--she needs Japanese practice, so why not practice on something you love? :-)
That's the key point, I think. Anything you love would work.
Anonymous
18:47
As long as it's not so difficult that you're failing to get anything out of it.
Oh, I can recall how chidori is used now
Anonymous
Chidori is literally chi "a thousand" + tori "birds"
Anonymous
So it's presumably a reference to how the birds flock in large numbers
It's the jitsu that makes the sound of thousand birds, yes.
Anonymous
Jutsu?
18:49
In the form of lightning.
Oh, it's jutsu then. :-)
Oh, I know that one, but in Thai พันปักษา (a thousand birds), though.
You're exactly right!
Anonymous
Jutsu is "technique, art"
Anonymous
As in jūjutsu or ninjutsu
Quite good translation they had there.
Anonymous
18:50
In English we often call those jiu jitsu or such, and ninjitsu, etc.
nods
@snailboat That's why I remember it as jitsu.
Anonymous
Jitsu is typical in English
Anonymous
In spoken Japanese, you might not always be able to tell the difference between jitsu and jutsu
Anonymous
But jitsu is, I think, a misspelling
Which has already become the norm in English. :)
Anonymous
18:53
Well, we aren't very picky about our spelling of words from Japanese in English :-)
Oh, talking about Japanese in English, why do English speakers pronounce Karaoke (カラオケ) /kærioʊki/ ?
Anonymous
See e.g. honcho from hanchō or skosh from sukoshi
Anonymous
@Fantasier さあ
@snailboat Oh, they both are new to me!
18:56
Interesting...
さあ = saa
さああ = saaa
Iirc, オケ = OK
Anonymous
Corpus evidence says オッケー is minorly favored over オーケー

« first day (494 days earlier)      last day (405 days later) »