« first day (4670 days earlier)      last day (554 days later) » 

08:12
@ACuriousMind hey! actually, i was reading about the Internet war happening around the world where emerging economy like China is competing to develop their own Internet is it really possible? i feel no , because most of the undersea optical fiber cable is being developed by the west and its allies? in cyber warfare domain what u feel is the most critical thing
and one more thing how data theft is possible using these cables i read somewhere that western countries are concerned about fiber cables
could new internet protocol can be devloped?
Why would the big C develop their own internet when their great firewall is already so powerful at controlling the internet for their own use? It is not like the old internet infrastructure would be causing trouble any time soon?
@आर्यभट्ट I don't know what you're reading but it sounds like nonsense to me
as nI says, the Great Firewall already means China effectively has "its own internet"
if anything, they should be interested in stealing data from outside, not worried about them leaking data
lol, article from 2 years ago (height of the crypto hype) and it has "blockchain" in the first sentence?
I wouldn't believe anything in there :P
08:18
it is a big deal that the confluence of a language barrier and the great firewall, together, gives them quite the powerful control over their own political stability
@आर्यभट्ट that's not about China making its own internet, it's about the concern that whoever controls the cables through which internet traffic passes can of course a) intercept that traffic and b) just cut off other people's access to the cables
it says about spying??
08:23
not sure what's unclear about this - if I control the cable through which some data is passed, I can just cut the cable open, put some listening device in there and record ("spy") on everything that's passing through it. I wouldn't even call that "spying", it's just how it works - if you give me some data and tell me to pass it to someone else, you have to give me the data
and once I have the data I can read it
this isn't about new technologies or anything
ok what about telecommunication hardware?
what about it?
i mean we read us blocked Chinese companies or i can say blacklisted Chinese companies on 5g and 6g hardware
there equipments are not safe
why?
08:25
oh
it's the same thing as with the cable: If I build your computer and install the firmware on it, I can also install something that allows me to e.g. control your computer from afar, or record everything you type or whatever
so you have to trust me that I won't do that
and plenty of people don't trust China not to do that
(of course, this isn't a one-way street: China has an interest to produce all that hardware themselves because they don't necessarily trust US-produced technology to be safe!)
but don't u feel suspicious when china wish to control everything from chips to software
all those news reports about intelligence threats "from China" or "from Russia" usually describe threats that are symmetric, but the West likes to pretend they're not
hmmm @ACuriousMind banged
08:30
@आर्यभट्ट of course, but I'm equally suspicious when the US response is "no, the correct answer is clearly that the US controls everything"
@ACuriousMind if i am correct us asked google for the same?
does us agencies have access to big data companies ?
all intelligence services use whatever influence they have to gather data
@आर्यभट्ट remember Snowden?
08:45
Yes
What u feel should be the best way to secure individual privacy
live as a hermit on a mountain
or become Jason Bourne
09:08
is there a frame of reference in which the total energy of the universe of zero
i mean no particles shud exist in that frame of reference
09:24
@आर्यभट्ट just don't give anyone your data :P
@ACuriousMind if u go recently i guess european uninon just penalised google and they heaing towards a new data protection law
I really don't trust regulation to fix this, although I largely approve of the EU attempts at regulating data collection by companies
Both companies and intelligence agencies have no interest in actually protecting anyone's data, and as soon as the perceived benefits outweigh the potential fine, they'll just break regulations
ok
do u feel the Ai makes personnel data more vulnerable i mean not about government even corporates have been misusing the personnel data by spamming customers
for that we need internationally recognized personnel data regulation
which includes all the countries like various convention of the united nations
data is the next oil
@ACuriousMind
EU personal data regulations are basically the only thing protecting the consumer right now
@naturallyInconsistent agree
actually i saw the draft of it
10:24
@आर्यभट्ट "the AI"?
if you're talking about LLMs like ChatGPT, no, those aren't really privacy risks as such. The only problem could be that people train them on sensitive data and don't realize that they can't control how the models regurgitate that data
can the light cone co ordinates be called the "frame of reference of light"?
@naturallyInconsistent and even those are regularly broken by the big players (e.g. Facebook/Meta and Cambridge Analytica), although they have to pay fines
all web companies should be open source
i mean they must be open source. private social media need to be banned by the constitution
A real vision for privacy would involve only using software that doesn't collect all that data at all unless really necessary, but this requires individual action
but people like Facebook
@ACuriousMind it can also be done by requiring social media to be open source
10:31
@RyderRude What does "open source" do here?
just like Firefox is open source
@ACuriousMind it means no one makes profit off it
the problem isn't that social media companies are somehow secretive about collecting data
@RyderRude that's not what open source means
non-profit and open source are two entirely different concepts
it is a consequence of open source
if u remove profit, no one would steal ur data
it is not, many of the largest open source developers are for-profit companies!
Microsoft, Google, etc. all contribute a lot to many open source projects
i said open source companies, not open source develoeprs
10:32
wtf does that mean
"open source" is a technical term that refers to the way in which software is distributed
it is a company that solely lives off open source developers
and donations
you mean a non-profit
we already have that word
you don't need to call that "open source"
open source also means the community can make changes to the code
it is not merely non profit. open source is owned by the community
and the code is open source
anyone can see it
what does that have to do with the privacy problem?
it's not exactly a secret that all the big sites collect a lot of data from their users
@ACuriousMind we should have a community based software
10:36
the problem isn't that their code is closed-source and if we only could see the code that collects the data suddenly everything would improve; the problem is that everyone knows they collect that data and uses them anyway
Like for eg india launched its own upi version which is being voluntarily controlled by banks and facilitated by central bank and government
@ACuriousMind if it is open source, the community would make sure the data isnt stored anymore
if they dont store it, they cant use it. and who will use it anyway? there's no owner of open source
don't get me wrong: I'm all for community-driven, free, open-source software, but the "open source" part isn't really at the core of the privacy problem
@RyderRude I think you heavily misunderstand how open-source works
open source doesn't mean anyone can make any changes they want to the code
it just means anyone can read the code
Even recently there is a pilot project which seeks to replace Amazon monopoly over e commerce ONDC
Where anybody can join as seller or partner
do you think there's no reason that firefox is safer than chrome
10:38
No body is making profit out of it
and the thing with replacing the large social media players isn't that there is no open source software that could also do that
there are open source alternatives, see e.g. the software that powers Mastodon as a Twitter alternative
but just because it exists doesn't mean people use it
the market is dominated by the big players and the network effect is real: Everyone uses Twitter because everyone else uses Twitter; almost no one is going to use the open-source alternative as long as everyone else is still on Twitter
you're not magically removing the monopoly there just because you made an open source alternative
this is not a fault of open source. these platforms just need to be aggressively promoted
at least one will get popular
firefox is popular
@RyderRude that's what I'm saying: Open source or not is an issue that is entirely orthogonal to the actual problem here!
10:41
i had never heard of this Mastodon until now
@ACuriousMind let me say clearly commercial interest and backroom collaboration between tech companies and government makes the open source a failure in front of them
what
again, many large tech companies invest heavily in open source
@ACuriousMind i never said open source was an issue. but open source is a solution to privacy issues
so open source and privacy issues are not orthogonal!
@ACuriousMind there is a reason for investing everybody wish to control or own something which outcast your own product
10:43
if it is open source, people can just read the code about if the data is being saved
That does not mean they really wish to be niece with that commercial interest is the only thing which drives it
@RyderRude ...and what I've been explaining to you is that "open source" is not the solution. Yes, an open-source software is easy to audit regarding what data it stores or not. But, again: Our current issues with privacy are not about us not knowing that the companies store a truckload of data
They even tell you in their terms of service, usually!
An old but beautiful article by Reuters
all the scandals aren't that the companies secretly stored data you didn't know they stored, it's just that they used that data in nefarious ways after they pinky-swore they wouldn't do it
that they stored that data everyone already knew
@ACuriousMind open source is a solution because an open source platform can never make profit off data because there's no owner to profit
10:45
@RyderRude Again, you are conflating open source software with a non-profit organization
Just because open source software for a social media site exists doesn't mean that site actually exists
someone needs to own the servers on which the software runs
someone needs to employ the people who troubleshoot that setup
someone needs to be legally responsible for the content
@RyderRude OpenAI also makes a lot of money from enterprises that mostly use fine-tuned GPT3 models as they achieve high levels of performance at a fraction of the cost
all that is what a company (or another kind of organization) does and none of that is included in the software being open source
then governments should mandate only non profit social media
10:48
but it is against the government interest
In 2019, the non-profit AI research startup OpenAI turned a page that would alter its bedrock. Unusual though it may be for a non-profit organisation to make millions of dollars, OpenAI announced the OpenAI LP as an entirely separate entity, calling it a ‘capped-profit’ corporation. While the company would continue to research and develop new technologies, it also wanted to make more money in the process.
The details of the deal were this – investors of the startup could now earn up to 100 times their investment and not more than that value. The remaining money made would go right back into their nonprofit work done by another entity called OpenAI Nonprofit. OpenAI counts a bunch of big names among its VC firms like Andreessen Horowitz, Sequoia, Tiger Global and Founders Fund, all of which have the option to exit the agreement whenever they wan
Careful: OpenAI is called "OpenAI" but it is not "open source" nor non-profit in any way
the name is just marketing
communism was designed to make everything open source. but it just lead to dictatorship
perhaps in the future, we can aim for leader-free societies
Did you try on purpose to come up with the worst take on both communism and open source?
10:51
@ACuriousMind still happy to educate those who insist on conflation, eh?
no. i was serious..
the concept of leader-free societies is serious
You just don't understand how open source works at all; almost all open source projects are not somehow egalitarian paradises where everyone can do everything - most of them are owned by specific people or organizations, and those people or organizations control what happens to the software
but i dont know too much about the communism system, yes
"open source" just means that a) everyone can read the code and b) everyone may suggest changes
it has no implications at all for the governance model of the software
@ACuriousMind you are correct
About open source
10:53
I know! :P
then i should not have equated communism with open source.
I work for a software company and as part of my job I manage some of our open source repositories
i just see communism memes about open source platforms. but perhaps theyre aimed at non profitness
@ACuriousMind do they allow that?
@RyderRude have you considered not basing your understanding of the world on memes?
5
@आर्यभट्ट allow what?
10:55
i wasnt trying to make a technically accurate statement. i was being somewhat loose with the terms, yes
Nothing I got confused by the way have u heard about data bricks by Microsoft?
@ACuriousMind
leader-free societies should remove data stealing
leader-free soceities dont have elected people. they just try to vote for most things
but no country has implemented it to see how it works in practice
@ACuriousMind on a personnel note are u working in software company? Which one is it?
it is based on "wisdom of the crowd". it is still a very flawed idea
it needs to be more nuanced than just "voting for everything" because this makes morality dependent on the majority viewpoint
@आर्यभट्ट that might be a bit too personal to ask
11:03
@naturallyInconsistent I do suffer a lot from siwoti with respect to topics I care about :P
@naturallyInconsistent not really, it's right in my profile on the main site :P
@ACuriousMind ah, I have the same affliction, so stay stronk, my dear
@ACuriousMind pleasee
U can give hint
@आर्यभट्ट I just said it's right in my profile!
can you not read :P
Oh
What kind of work u handle there?
...as my profile says:
> I develop code analysis software at SAP.
11:07
I knew you were a sap
@ACuriousMind do you enjoy this or physics more?
you must enjoy physics more
@ACuriousMind a general question comes to my mind who makes more money I mean pure data analytics companies or software tech companies
11:59
fundamental physics is random fundamental equations without any further explanation
and Einstein somehow got philosophical satisfaction out of this
So sick of reading epistemology books using dice for probabilities
Are there no other probabilistic process
Maybe use a stack of Magic cards
or the roulette
the Russian roulette
@Slereah what did you learn from books about epistemology?
i want to know how epistemology benefits how we see world
I have learned that doing science is pretty complicated
also as the 20th century went on the epistemologists got kind of wilder
People had pretty high hopes in the 1900's but by the 1970's people were ready to embrace magic again
what is magic in this context
As in magic
But I think Mr. Feyerabend was slightly exagerating for effect
12:06
what were people actually embracing that he meant by "embracing magic"?
@Slereah example
I mean if you want examples you can just read it
A fun example of Polanyi is some debates about the importance of the timing of writing down an observation
Not something you will typically find in most physics textbooks but that was apparently possibly an issue for some things
this is not the time of making the observation, but it's the time of writing it that's relevant?
Well imagine you look at a star, then you look at the clock to note the time of observation, and then write it down
How much does the speed at which you're doing this process important
oh
becuz the time at which the observation took place is also part of the observation
I mean obviously yes, that's pretty basic astronomy
But those kinds of delays are typically not things that are written down in experimental contexts
is the point
12:19
this seems like an uninteresting subject to me
if u r an experimental physicist, it is important
@RyderRude Admittedly, it's pretty mundane. But if the timestamps of your observations are sloppy it's difficult to verify your theory against those observations.
yes. it is important. it is just uninteresting as far as im concerned lol
it is dealing with the nuances of doing experiments. it is very important
And with astronomical stuff, it's a bit circular, since before the atomic clock we set our mechanical clocks from astronomical references. And we still keep UTC coordinated with time based on the Sun, since we want to maintain the traditional link between the length of the day and the length of the year. That gets tricky at high precision because the Earth's rotation period is gradually & irregularly increasing.
Last chapter of Poincaré's book is called THE END OF MATTER
Foreboding
@Slereah what does he say in it
12:29
> For most of recorded history, the motion of the celestial bodies was the basis of all precision timekeeping.
I will let you know once I read it
@PM2Ring I read recently the anecdote about how people calibrated "precision" clocks in the renaissance
Some guy just got a bunch of his friends with him to watch an oscillating pendulum for a whole ass day
just count 86.400 oscillation in a day
::yawn:: not my idea of a good "time"
Well this was before television
Newton spent ages experimenting with pendulums to verify that the substance comprising the bob doesn't affect the motion.
Don't even know how you can maintain concentration to do it for a day really
At one per second that's pretty intense shit
12:33
It's pretty damn hard to not lose track just watching a seconds pendulum for 5 minutes.
> He sought to develop a pendulum whose period was precisely one second – such a pendulum would complete 86,400 swings in a 24-hour period. This he directly tested, twice, by using stars to mark time and recruiting a team of nine fellow Jesuits to count swings and maintain the amplitude of swing for 24 hours.
Maybe they worked in shifts idk
must have been a long ass day
this means that today we must be keeping track of two types of time : one that is based on atomic clocks and the other that must remain aligned with the solar year
the former really tells how long it's really been
> A seconds pendulum is a pendulum whose period is precisely two seconds; one second for a swing in one direction and one second for the return swing
So " tick" = 1 second and "tock" = 1 second.
Part of the motivation for the length of the metre was for it to be the length of a seconds pendulum. But they soon realised that that was a bit sloppy, due to the variation in g.
12:39
one more problem that comes up here is that we can only compare two "clocks" and we dont know which one is the real clock. we can only know that both are irregular relative to each other
@RyderRude Yes. But it's even more complicated, due to various political factors.
in terms of ontology, true clocks are suposed to be the ones aligned with proper time
so perhaps we can prove on paper that the atomic clock is aligned with proper time
then it would make it a true clock and the solar year a false clock
@PM2Ring what do u mean
Time is what elapses between tick and tock.
@Slereah oh, it's Jesuits
suffering in the name of god is their thing :P
at least counting clock oscillations is not being sent abroad
Hi people. I have a possibly stupid question in electromagnetism, anyone interesetd?
12:42
in the old times, the physics ontological definition of a "true clock" used to be much more sloppy
it was something like "the true time is the one relative to which bodies follow the simplest trajectories"
so, for example, Newton's first law holds relative to true clock because bodies move in straight line in spacetime wrt a true clock
this definition is much sloppier
Well, we have an atomic clock network, where all the clocks on the network contribute to TAI. But you can't just make an observation and know the TAI time of that observation. It takes the BIPM time to collate the data from all the clocks on the network. So you make a preliminary record of what time your clock says, and then a couple of weeks later when the next edition of Circular T comes out (which is published monthly), you can convert your preliminary timestamp to TAI.
the reason these problems arise is that clocks themselves are complex objects subject to the laws of mechanics, and yet, the fundamentals of Newtonian mechanics is based on treating clocks as a primitive object
Having read a few astro papers for the book I have discovered that the star people just love making up standards for times and coordinates
general relativity solves these issues by making the metric a primitive object. the clock no longer defines time. it only measures the metric
I investigate current density functions. the currents are induced into an electron cloud, the underlying mechanisms are QM, but the quantituies I obtain can be treated classically. So I have an external homogeneous time independent mag field B^ext that induces currents J^B into the electron cloud, lets say. These currents correspond to some induced magnetic field B^ind from which they can be obtained for example ma the Ampere law from the curl.
12:46
and true clocks are the ones that truly meausure the proper time
By comparing a really good pendulum clock to an atomic clock you can detect the changes in g due to the tidal force from the Moon and Sun.
@PM2Ring there was a fun anecdote about the Eotvos experiment where, to make sure the experiment was as undisturbed as possible, the experimenters ran to the setup, did their thing and then ran back away
Via some considerations I have obtained a method for computing a "vector potential" for the currents that is obviously in general different from B^ind but from which J^B also can be obtained by taking the curl (and dividing by \mu_0).
@Slereah Well, they keep realising that the previous standards weren't quite right, so they have to create new ones. ;)
So that their bulky bodies would not influence it
@PM2Ring What standard do they use for the times recorded in those clay tablets
12:52
@RaphaelJ.F.Berger I'm confused: Why would a time-independent magnetic field induce currents?
Obviously the two vector potentials B^ind and the other one lets call it W are related via a gradient of a scalar function f. Like W + grad(f) = B^ind. What I would like to know now is if B^ind is special among all W+grad(g) potentials of this form for all possible g. And if B^ind for example fullfills some variational property ?
in Quantum mechanics it induces non zero but "static" currents.
ah, okay, this is a quantum effect
Amateur "time hacker" Tom van Baak made a pendulum that's sensitive to tides. He also measured gravitational time dilation by taking one of his atomic clocks up a mountain, with his kids. leapsecond.com
Yeah!
But I think/hope that is not important for my question
@RaphaelJ.F.Berger isn't the definition of the magnetic field - as opposed to any other field $W$ that has $\nabla\times W = J$ - just that it also fulfills the rest of Maxwell's equations?
12:54
@PM2Ring is it that guy
and the variational principle for the Maxwell equations is just the usual action of EM with your current as source
But $\nabla \times (W + grad g) = J$ then as well, for any scalar g
@Slereah Mostly they record which bright star is nearest the meridian, and estimate how many degrees it is from the meridian.
@RaphaelJ.F.Berger Yes - I'm saying the $B^\text{ind}$ is special in that it is the only one among those that also fulfills the other three Maxwell equations for your current $J$
Oh, I see. So if I give you W could you determine $B^\text{ind}$ from it?
12:58
@RaphaelJ.F.Berger If you also give me some boundary conditions for $E$ and $B$ then I'd say so - I'd just compute $J$ from it - as $\nabla \times W$ - and then use that $J$ and the boundary conditions to get a unique solution for $E$ and $B$ from Maxwell's equations
Oh, you are saying div(W) must be zero, right?
Apr 23, 2022 at 16:01, by PM 2Ring
Also from Tom"s site: http://leapsecond.com/pages/atomic-bill/ Below is my brother-in-law, Bill, a professional construction contractor, proving that a HP 5071A Cesium Beam Primary Frequency Reference can in fact be used as a wrist watch.
^ The first atomic wristwatch
better not drop it

« first day (4670 days earlier)      last day (554 days later) »