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10:00 PM
Eww
Can Mrs. Duck do that?
Why does algebraic topology use so much algebra :(
 
The nice thing about these things is that while all the definitions look a bit intimidating, the proofs usually dont' have much to them:
 
That's the point, in my view, of the abstract approach.
You just define things by the properties that you want to use in proofs.
 
First, let's construct the projections: Clearly, we can map an element $f \in \mathrm{Hom}(\bigoplus_i M_i,\mathbb{R})$ to maps $f_i : M_i\to \mathbb{R}$ by setting $f_i = f\circ \iota_i$, where $\iota_i$ is the inclusion of $M_i$ into the sum.
So this gives projections $\pi_i : f\mapsto f_i$ from the l.h.s. to the factors of the product
@Danu "The purpose of category theory is to show that that which is trivial is indeed trivial" ;)
I've forgotten who said it, but it often rings true
 
@ACuriousMind Sure
@ACuriousMind ...sure
 
Now, given any other object $N$ with maps $g_i : N\to \mathrm{Hom}(M_i,\mathbb{R})$, we must construct a unique map $g : N\to \mathrm{Hom}(\bigoplus_i M_i,\mathbb{R})$ such that $g_i = \pi_i\circ g$.
 
10:07 PM
Yes, the universal property
What's a good resource for this, btw
 
For any $m\in\bigoplus_i M_i$ with non-zero $m_1,\dots,m_n$, we set $g(m) = \sum_{i=1}^n g_i(m_i)$.
It's not hard to see that this $g$ is unique, since any map $g'$ that deviates from it at some $m$ will have a different value for $\pi_i\circ g'$.
Which shows the l.h.s. fulfills the u.p. of the r.h.s., and hence the two are isomorphic
 
Uhhh
Which lhs
Where is the product?
 
The step that most blatantly fails for the roles of sum and product switched is that $m\in\prod_i M_i$ doesn't have finitely many non-zero elements, so the can't form a sum as we did here.
@0celo7 of the equality we wanted to show
 
@ACuriousMind You've lost me
@ACuriousMind I see that.
 
@0celo7 We're done!
 
10:12 PM
With?
 
The proof!
 
I don't understand what these $g$s are
 
Oh
I fucked up the names
I'm sorry
Let me try that again
 
uh
do we map into or out of a product
for the u.p.
 
For any $m\in\bigoplus_i M_i$ and every $n\in N$, we set $(g(n))(m) := \sum_{i=1}^n (g_i(n))(m_i)$, so that $n\mapsto g(n)$ is the map for the universal property.
 
10:15 PM
I'm confused by what $N$ is
 
An arbitrary object
 
Huh?
 
vector space in this case, I guess
 
That's the thing from Wiki
Is $N$ here $Y$ in the picture?
 
10:16 PM
So where did $g$ come from?
 
And the $X_i$ are the $\mathrm{Hom}(M_i,\mathbb{R})$.
 
Yeah
 
@0celo7 I defined it.
 
oh come on
 
3 mins ago, by ACuriousMind
For any $m\in\bigoplus_i M_i$ and every $n\in N$, we set $(g(n))(m) := \sum_{i=1}^n (g_i(n))(m_i)$, so that $n\mapsto g(n)$ is the map for the universal property.
 
10:18 PM
I've completely lost track of what we're trying to do, sorry
 
@DavidZ I just spent about 20 minutes fixing syntax errors in a python program which would have been caught be a compiler. Instead, I had to re-run my program over and over, catching one error per iteration.
I suppose this demonstrates that with python tests are more important than with other languages, as one must have the tests exercise code paths even just to find syntax errors.
 
We want to show that $\mathrm{Hom}(\bigoplus M_i,\Bbb R)$ satisfies the u.p. of $\prod\mathrm{Hom}(M_i,\Bbb R)$?
 
@0celo7 Let $X_i :=\mathrm{Hom}(M_i,\mathbb{R})$ and $X:=\mathrm{Hom}(\bigoplus M_i,\mathbb{R})$. We must show that for every $N$ with maps $g_i : N\to X_i$ there is a unique map $N\to X$, such that $g_i = \pi_i\circ g$.
@0celo7 Yes, exactly
 
@ACuriousMind Ah, ok
So...what is $(g(n))(m)$
or even $(g_i(n))(m)$
It's a real number?
$g_i(n)\in\mathrm{Hom}(M_i,\Bbb R)$?
 
@0celo7 $g_i(n)\in X_i$, right? And $X_i$ itself is a space of maps, so $(g_i(n))(m_i)\in\mathbb{R}$.
 
10:25 PM
@ACuriousMind Do you have a reference for this
 
@BernardMeurer I DID IT
I made a fully asynchronous client/server pair in asyncio.
Will upload to cappy soon!
First must procure food.
 
@ACuriousMind Is the th in Künneth a t
 
@0celo7 I think so
@0celo7 You may guess the answer
 
Yes, but it's in German handwriting
 
Pretty much
although I don't even know if I still have the lecture where I learnt this first somewhere
 
10:30 PM
Oh geez why is $\otimes$ distributive over $\oplus$
 
Ah, that's another fun game with universal properties, although choosing a basis and just giving explicitly isomorphisms is probably easier for vector spaces
 
the vector spaces might be infinite dimensional though
 
So? Choose an infinite-dimensional basis
 
You know I can't do that
How do I actually do it explicitly
Assuming I could find a basis
 
@0celo7 Had a look at Zee's Group book, he mentions that Arnold essay you were ignoring and compliments it in the book ;)
 
10:33 PM
Zee is a quack
 
Pretty good book
 
And I read it, I just disagreed with it
@ACuriousMind $V\otimes(W\oplus X)\cong V\otimes W\oplus V\otimes X$
-.-'
Where do I begin
 
Using the Ising model to prove Fermat's Little Theorem
 
@0celo7 Well, you pick one side and show that it fulfills the u.p. of the other one
 
without u.p. nonsense
I want an elementary proof
 
10:36 PM
Choose a basis, think a bit, write down the isomorphism, then
 
@ACuriousMind well in that case it's trivial...I think?
Unless I'm mistaken, the tensor product by definition distributes over vector addition
and elements of $W\oplus X$ are of the form $w+x$
 
Yes, it's not a hard proof :P
 
Ok, can you hold my hand through a up proof? Let me try to set it up...
How to do CDs in chat?
 
@DanielSank Cool!
I'm rather hungry too
not sure what food I want
 
I'm probably going to get Mexican
@ACuriousMind Ok...how do I actually begin?
@ACuriousMind Do I insert one side into the CD of the other and show it still commutes?
 
10:47 PM
@0celo7 You can't do that - how would you translate maps to/from one to maps to/from the other without already knowing they are isomorphic?
You pick one side and try to show it fulfills the u.p. of the other side
 
I don't know what that means :/
 
Well, for a start, figure out what the u.p. of both sides actually are
 
Right
@ACuriousMind Let $A_1=V\otimes W$ and $A_2=V\otimes X$. (more to come)
U.p. of LHS: Given a multilinear map $\mu:V\times(W\oplus X)\to Z$, there is a unique linear map $\tilde \mu:V\otimes(W\oplus X)\to Z$ such that $\mu=\tilde\mu \circ\otimes$.
U.p. of RHS: Given maps $f_k:A_k\to Z$, there is a unique map $f:A_1\oplus A_2\to Z$ such that $f\circ i_k=f_k$.
@ACuriousMind Right?
 
So, what now?
 
10:56 PM
Now pick one side, and start with the given data for the other.
 
er
@ACuriousMind I don't know where to begin
 
This would be actually easier if we could use the Yoneda lemma. Oh well...
Okay
 
@ACuriousMind What the hell
Next proof is that tensoring an exact sequence with a vector space preserves exactness o.o
I hate algebraic topology
 
Asking what is not art is as hard as finding the answer to what is not mathematics (PS On mobile, cannot linebreak)
 
11:01 PM
@0celo7 Begin with the maps $f_k$. We want to show that we get a map $f : V\otimes(W\oplus X)\to Z$ such that $f\circ \iota_k = f_k$.
hm, no, the other direction is better.
@0celo7 Ah, yes: Begin with the $\mu$ and try to construct a map $\mu' : A_1\oplus A_2\to Z$ and a $\otimes' : V\times (W\oplus X)\to A_1\oplus A_2$ with $\mu = \mu'\circ \otimes'$.
The idea for the $\otimes'$ I have already heard from you
 
...wat
I'm glad you have such unrealistic hopes for me?
no basis, right?
 
nope
You're allowed to use elements, though ;)
 
when did you hear it from me
today?
or in the year and a half we've known each other
 
31 mins ago, by 0celo7
Unless I'm mistaken, the tensor product by definition distributes over vector addition
 
So?
 
11:09 PM
Well...the issue with these things is that I can't tell you much except write down the correct definition
 
Hmm.
$\mu:V\times(W\oplus X)\to Z$ still, right?
 
How do I determine $\mu'$ without $\otimes '$, and vice versa?
@ACuriousMind Er, are the products in $A_k$ the prime or unprimed ones
 
The $\otimes'$ must not depend on the $\mu$
 
I have no clue what $\otimes'$ should be, what is the idea
I don't know what it should look like
 
11:18 PM
Well, you have to take a $(v,w+x)$ and write it as a $(a_1,a_2)=(v\otimes w,v\otimes x)\in A_1\oplus A_2$
 
Hm
 
And, oops, that's the map already there!
 
should those not be $\otimes'$s?
@ACuriousMind I know what it should look like
I'm concerned about the details
how is $v\otimes w$ defined?
 
In the representation of QFT with the Fock space as $\bigoplus(L^2)^{\otimes n}(\Bbb R^3)$
The vacuum is just $\Bbb C$, right?
 
what tensor product is that
 
11:19 PM
@0celo7 No, the $\otimes'$ is just my name for the map $V\times (W\oplus X) \to (V\otimes W,V\otimes X), (v,w+x)\mapsto (v\otimes w,v\otimes x)$.
It doesn't define a "new tensor product" or anything
@Slereah yep
 
can I jump off a building
I do not understand what is going on
 
Hm, how does that work with operators
 
I thought we were defining a new tensor product
then using the universal property to show it's the same as the old one
 
$a | 0\rangle = \frac{\delta z}{\delta \varphi} + \varphi z$
I assume that $\hat \varphi z = 0$?
Or... does it???
I dunno
Wait no
 
@ACuriousMind What should $\mu'$ be then
Don't you have to find that too?
 
11:22 PM
We have got the object $A_1\oplus A_2$ and we want to show it's a tensor product. It is part of the u.p. of the tensor product that there is a map called "$\otimes$" from the product of the factors into the tensor product. If $A_1\oplus A_2$ is to be the same as the tensor product, we therefore need a map from the factors into it, and I called that map $\otimes'$.
 
Is that why we have $\pi = \frac{\delta }{\delta \varphi} + \varphi$
Or something
That way, we can have $a \approx \delta_\varphi$ and $a^\dagger$ depend on the field?
In that representation, how would you write the result of $a |0 \rangle$ and $a^\dagger |0\rangle$
 
@ACuriousMind Well now that we have $\otimes'$, do we just "solve" $\mu=\mu'\circ\otimes'$?
 
Oh wait
I'm guessing that would be like...
 
@0celo7 Sure, but it's just as easy: We need a map $(a_1,a_2) = (v\otimes w + v'\otimes x)\mapsto z$. We only have $\mu$, so we rearrange that data so we can feed it to $\mu$: $\mu'(v\otimes w+ v'\otimes x) := \mu(\frac{1}{2}(v+v'), w+x)$.
 
$\hat \varphi_k(x) z = \varphi_k(x) z$
And $\varphi_k(x)$ becomes the one particle state
With some phase $z$
Is that correct
 
11:27 PM
Dammit ACM
what why $v'$
 
Fuck I forget
What's the representation of $\hat \pi$ in QFT again?
I know it's a term in $\frac{\delta}{\delta \varphi(x)}$ and a term in $\varphi(x)$
 
@0celo7 In a general element of $A_1\oplus A_2$, the two $V$ in $A_1$ and $A_2$ are completely independent. I chose the simplest expression linear in $v,v'$ that becomes just $v$ when $v=v'$, since that's what we need for $\mu = \mu'\circ \otimes'$.
 
It was in the big book on functional analysis and hilbert spaces
I forget which
 
@ACuriousMind yeah
so by the universal property, $\otimes'\cong\otimes$?
 
That's a strange question, $\otimes'$ is just a map.
By the universal property, $A_1\oplus A_2\cong V\otimes (W\oplus X)$.
 
11:32 PM
You know that's what I meant.
 
Reed and Simon
That's the one
 
@0celo7 I didn't, because you were confused before about what $\otimes'$ is supposed to be
 
@ACuriousMind It's just a map
 
Oh god
my credit card isn't working again
fucking citibank
 
uh
@ACuriousMind Let me get this completely straight
 
11:34 PM
Can't pay for dinner
 
We know that $V\otimes'(W\oplus X)=A_1\oplus A_2$?
errr
@ACuriousMind I take it back, I'm hopelessly confuddled
$\otimes'( V\times(W\oplus X))=A_1\oplus A_2$?
 
No, the map is not meant to be surjective
The ordinary tensor product isn't, either
 
:9
nothing makes sense
 
'twas indeed $\hat \varphi(x) = \varphi(x)$ and $\hat \pi(x) = \frac{1}{i} (\frac{\delta}{\delta \varphi(x)} - \varphi(x))$
I think, anyway
Reed and Simon is a bit of a tough read
 
@ACuriousMind What do I do
We showed that $\otimes'$ satisfies the same u.p. that $\otimes$ does, right?
 
11:40 PM
@0celo7 Just take the direct proof and forget about the u.p.s
 
No
 
There's a much nicer categorial proof than verifying the u.p., anyway
But it would require more machinery you don't know
 
:(
I want to understand the u.p. proof
 
I probably didn't give the best one for that, either
 
@ACuriousMind Tensoring an exact sequence with some vector space preserves exactness. What are the new maps?
 
11:44 PM
This could be interesting
 
what does it even mean to tensor an exact sequence
 
@0celo7 They are "the obvious maps". If the maps are not obvious to you, that's a very strong sign you don't have the necessary prerequisites, and I honestly don't want to just drag you through every algebraic statement in that book.
 
What do I do then
 
user218912
learn physics!
 
@AcuriousMind located your quote.
 
11:47 PM
@BernardMeurer As my sworn apprentice, I command you to read this code:
 
@ACuriousMind Even you are getting tired?
 
@Danu I was surprised as well.
 
@Danu Ah, Freyd. Good thing I didn't try to guess who it was :P
 
@DanielSank ...that it lasted so long, and then suddenly ends.
 
@ACuriousMind are the new maps just the old ones multiplied by the identity
 
11:54 PM
Hm, let's see
 
Well, not multiplied
@ACuriousMind do you know what I mean?
 
The exact formula is $$a_k(x) = \frac{1}{\sqrt{(2\pi)^n 2 \omega_k}} \int d^n x e^{ikx} (\omega_k \varphi(x) + \frac{\delta}{\delta \varphi(x)} - \varphi(x))$$
 

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