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3:05 PM
0
Q: Water clock in ancient time

Kushal PatankarA Water clock used in ancient Greek is designed as a closed vessel with a small orifice O.The time is determined according to the level of the water in the vessel. What should the shape of the vessel be for the time scale to be uniform. find mathematical equation governing curve AOB. question ...

@JohnRennie You answered a question that was later closed? Do you disagree with its closed-osity?
 
@ValentinTihomirov the sum of the probabilities is <\phi^*|\phi>. Evaulate this integral and you'll see it comes to one.
 
Wow, there are a lot of questions that are both closed and have answers, sometimes even accepted answers.
 
@barrycarter there's always a grey area with homework, which that question obviously is. If I think I can usefully discuss the concepts involved then i will gnerally try. In this case I pointed the OP to the physics they need, but I didn't actually give an answer and I don't disagree with the close decision.
 
@barrycarter The review queues are rather slow here, giving people who either disagree with the close reasons or don't care about on-/off-topicness plenty of time to answer questions
 
@ACuriousMind I actually probably do that myself, but it seems somewhat contradictory.
It may actually make the hw situation worse: post and hope someone answers it before it gets closed.
 
3:09 PM
@barrycarter right, but the point is you shouldn't answer a homework question - and I didn't.
 
@barrycarter Yeah, I#m convinced we have some askers that do exactly that
 
OK, but I'm arguing that you shouldn't answer a hw question.
In other words, closed:1 -> answers:0
 
I've actually got a bad case of fatigue on this. I'm too tired to think and write carefully about it. It's clear that the current policy is too nebulous and not well understood by all active members much less new askers, so I suppose it still needs doing, but ... uhg! — dmckee ♦ 20 hours ago
^ that
 
For example:
2
Q: Acceleration of particle "held in place" at $x = 1$

user265817The metric components in a two-dimensional spacetime are given in terms of the coordinates $(t, x)$ by$$ds^2 = -\cosh x\,dt^2 + dx^2.$$Consider a particle that is "held in position" at $x = 1$. What is the acceleration of this particle, i.e., if the particle has unit mass, how much force must be ...

It looks like homework to me, but I'm happy to discuss the principles involved
 
@JohnRennie OK, so are you saying hw questions shouldn't be closed so someone can give a principle-based answer?
 
3:13 PM
@barrycarter again it's grey. My view is that someone who just wants their homework done won't be interested in me explaining the concepts involved so they will consider they haven't got an answer and hopefully not come back.
Anyone who is genuinely interested will pursue the points I make and hopefully learn something.
 
Let me ask that in a more specific way. Do you believe there are any questions that should be both closed and answered, in the SE specific definition of answer?
Assuming you had your druthers.
 
But if we leave the question open long term someone is sure to come along and (in good faith) provide exactly the sort of explicit answer the homework cheat is looking for.
In my perfect world high rep users could immediately and unilaterally close a homework question, but could then if they wished add a conceptual answer.
 
I'm proposing the Axiom of Choicelessness: either you believe a question should be closed, or it should be answered, but you can not hold both beliefs at the same time. Do you agree with this axiom?
 
it saddens me that nearly everyone in my physics class doesn't ask/care about the derivations of the formulas we're given :(
 
@Obliv High school or college?
 
3:15 PM
college
 
@Obliv Undergrad or grad?
 
@barrycarter define answered
 
it's a mechanics class like the first "calc-based" physics class
 
@JohnRennie I mean in the SE sense. Literally answers:0 fails for that question.
@Obliv Taught in a stadium with 100+ other undergrads or a small classroom?
 
I think I'm the only actual physics student taking the class so that makes sense I guess.
like 20 people lol
 
3:17 PM
@Obliv Why would non-physicists take a mechanics class? So something like Physics 301?
 
engineers, cs majors, even some non-stem majors have to take it for their degree
 
It bugs me there are questions that are closed but have accepted answers. It seems to me there's some fundamental policy issue there.
@Obliv CS majors???? Seriously? Or is it an elective?
 
@barrycarter CS majors are required to take up to physics II here so they have to cover electromagnetism too.
 
@barrycarter in that case I disagree with your axiom. You should not provide a complete and explicit answer, but it's OK to provide an answer that discusses general principles.
 
@Obliv CS = computer science right?
 
3:19 PM
yep
 
@JohnRennie So you do think it's ok to answer a question generally and then close it so no one else can answer specifically?
@Obliv Wow, why would CS majors need physics?
@Obliv Do you attend a school with word "physics" in the name?
 
@barrycarter yes. Under no circumstances should anyone answer specifically. That just encourages the cheaters and the lazy and pollutes our hallowed halls.
The hard liners would criticise me for even providing a discussion of concepts.
In the water clock example presumably the OP felt my discussion of concepts was enough to help them understand the problem and that's why they accepted it. If so they learned something, which is fine by me.
 
@barrycarter I don't know, some CS majors decide to minor in physics/do something physics related. No I don't.
 
@Obliv So all CS majors have to take it, weird.
@JohnRennie Oh, I wasn't talking about specific examples. To me, you close a question because it's not valid and you only answer a question if it is valid. I can't see holding both views at the same time.
I demand a rigidly defined axiom system! :P
 
Again, we differ on our definition of answer
I'm off to wash the risotto pan now, so I'll be offline for a few minutes
 
3:25 PM
OK, I meant in the StackExchange specific meaning of answer.
 
@HDE226868 Can you please either accept the answer this, delete it or do something? It's off topic.
Community has a habit of bumping it every other week.
 
You can't seem to search closed questions across all stackexchange sites easily.
 
originally the Physics SE was intended to be a research community like the Math Overflow but that didn't work out. Instead it is basically a learning resource i.e. physics students (in the loosest sense of *student*) can come here to get help with concepts that puzzle them.

So my view is that if I can leave the OP knowing more about physics than they did before that justifies an answer.

Just doing their homework teaches them nothing of course.
 
@JohnRennie OK, I think you answered before that you disagree with my axiom. I'm just annoyed by that :)
 
The point is that my long term aim is to evangelise physics. The day to day working of the SE are just a means to this end.
 
3:34 PM
Can I use my barrycarter identity on data.stackexchange.com? It assigned me a jon.doe id
 
@JohnRennie Evangelize?
Hopefully with more rigor than your average post :P
Nothing screams physical intuition more than a page of epsilons and deltas
 
@0celo7 speaking of which, what is wrong with my answer to:
0
A: Acceleration of particle "held in place" at $x = 1$

John RennieYou need to calculate the proper acceleration at the point $x = 1$, and you do this using the geodesic equation: $$ {d^2 x^\mu \over d\tau^2} = - \Gamma^\mu_{\alpha\beta} {dx^\alpha \over d\tau} {dx^\beta \over d\tau} $$ This is simpler than it looks since the only non-zero component of the fou...

 
@JohnRennie you don't use the geodesic equation to calul...holy shit PSE now has desktop notifications
as I was saying
you use the geodesic equation to find a geodesic
but you're not looking for a geodesic
I know what you're trying to say, but you're saying it very poorly
You already have the curve
You're finding the proper acceleration
 
The geodesic equation calculates the four-acceleration given the four-velocity and a bunch of Christoffel symbols - doesn't it?
 
No
@JohnRennie it's an ODE, it doesn't calculate anything
you want a formula for the proper acceleration
 
3:45 PM
But the left side of the equation I give is the four-acceleration
 
No, actually, it's not
 
god, coordinates...
lemme write this out
the proper acceleration is $a^\mu=\ddot x^\mu+\Gamma^\mu{}_{\nu\sigma}\dot x^\nu\dot x^\sigma$
So given $x^\mu(t)$, you can find the proper acceleration
The geodesic equation is $\ddot x^\mu+\Gamma^\mu{}_{\nu\sigma}\dot x^\nu\dot x^\sigma=0$ and it lets you find a geodesic $x^\mu(t)$.
 
GAMA
 
If you don't believe me @JohnRennie , see the article you linked en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_acceleration#In_curved_spacetime
 
3:48 PM
Is this an okay proof that : If $f:A \to B$ is injective, there must exist a left inverse $g:B \to A$ such that $g \circ f: id_A$. Suppose f is injective. Define a function $g$ where for every $b \in B$ $g(b) = a$. thus for every $a$, $g\circ f (a) = a$ and so $g\circ f(A) = id_A$
uh I forgot to say $f(a) = b$
 
@Obliv How can you guarantee such a $g$ exists?
 
Is there a chat room for data.stackexchange.com?
 
@0celo7 is the ddot the derivative wrt coordinate time or proper time?
 
@JohnRennie: Physical intuition: A geodesic is a free-fall motion. The acceleration an object in free fall feels is zero (that's what "free fall" means, after all) - the geodesic equation precisely determines the curves along which proper acceleration is zero.
 
@JohnRennie In mathy GR we never use coordinate time, all dots are wrt. the curve paramter $t$
 
3:51 PM
For the question you linked, you have to take the worldline described by the question (particle with fixed spatial position in those coordinates) and compute its proper acceleration.
 
@ACuriousMind Are you explaining something in GR to Rennie o.O
 
@ACuriousMind yes, but the proper acceleration of a stationary observer is the acceleration wrt an object in geodesic motion, isn't it?
 
@0celo7 if f is injective, there must not exist any two $a$'s that map to the same $b$.
 
Next you'll be telling the Pope his Latin needs improving
@JohnRennie Uhhh, what
Do you not agree with the definition of the article you linked?
 
@0celo7 the reason I know my proper acceleration is 1g is because if I release an object it accelerates away from me at 1g
@0celo7 you have a flattering but entirely unjustified faith in my knowledge of GR
 
3:55 PM
@JohnRennie what does that have to do with the math
 
@JohnRennie That only works because we're at non-relativistic speeds and then proper and coordinate acceleration coincide. I think.
 
I think the wiki article calculates the proper acceleration of a falling object
@ACuriousMind Perhaps.
But I don't see @JohnRennie 's issue here
We can say that something is accelerating without reference to geodesic motion
 
@ACuriousMind But we're talking about an object that is momentarily stationary wrt me and is at the same spacetime point as me.
 
@JohnRennie "You" don't exist when talking about proper acceleration. Proper acceleration is an invariant (proper vector), you don't need any comparisons to compute it.
 
Have you even seen a vector in the sky
 
3:59 PM
All of this is explained in the wiki article that he linked
@Slereah I have
 
Ok but in this case we have an observer held stationary at x=0 and a freely moving object momentarily stationary at $x=0$. My contention is that the equation I gave does give you a vector whose norm is the proper acceleration of the stationary observer.
 
It does not give you a vector
So how could it give you a vector
 
It gives you \ddot{x}^\mu
 
Not a vector.
 
Why isn't \ddot{x}^\mu a vector?
 
4:03 PM
What's the policy on posting personal site links as comments to a question assuming the links are quasi-relevant?
 
@JohnRennie Many reasons
(1), it doesn't transform like one
 
@barrycarter It's fine to cite yourself, you just have to state that you're citing yourself.
 
(2), if you go through the differential geometry, you'll see there is no way to define the second derivative naturally
Well, 2 reasons.
 
So is:
16
Q: What is the weight equation through general relativity?

user17093The gravitational force on your body, called your weight, pushes you down onto the floor. $$W=mg$$ So, what is the weight equation through general relativity?

wrong?
 
@ACuriousMind Ah, excellent. My evil plan is finally coming to fruition.
 
4:05 PM
No, he does it correctly.
cf.
19 mins ago, by 0celo7
the proper acceleration is $a^\mu=\ddot x^\mu+\Gamma^\mu{}_{\nu\sigma}\dot x^\nu\dot x^\sigma$
 
Ah yes, oops
 
@0celo7 you remind me of a kid named Jake Barnett iirc
 
$\ddot x$ is a vector!
 
@Obliv I'm not autistic.
 
yeah but you taught yourself a lot of math& physics like him is what I'm trying to say lol
@0celo7 you would probably make a really good chess player if I had to guess. you iq is up there prob
 
4:08 PM
Jake Barnett
Jake Barnett popped up on the physics chat of Freenode a while back
He is not a fun fellow to talk to
 
i'd imagine
 
@Obliv I'm a shitty chess player.
 
since he has autism :\ and the way he was brought up probably gave him some attention/ego issues
 
Can't remember anything
 
you don't need to remember things to be a good chess player lol
just need to think logically and account for many variations
 
4:11 PM
@0celo7 I've edited my answer. is it OK now?
 
@Obliv Poor memory leads me to believe my IQ is rather low.
@JohnRennie OK? No, because it uses coordinates
 
maybe working memory?
what memory of yours is poor, short term long term or working memory? @0celo7
 
@JohnRennie Yes, it's correct now.
 
@0celo7 good grief, I'm surrounded by maths purists - I've died and gone to Hell
9
 
@JohnRennie I'm currently reading a physics book written by an engineer for my work
I'm the one who has gone to hell
 
4:13 PM
Thanks :-)
Actually I bet it gets closed as homework anyway.
 
My IQ is the best
20/20 IQ B)
 
FUCK these desktop messages pop up even when you're looking at the thing
How do I block them
They were cool for about 5 seconds
 
@0celo7 can you delete your comment, since it no longer applies
 
@Obliv short term, I think
@JohnRennie do comments cache? I deleted as soon as you told me to check the answer
 
@0celo7 aha, one F5 later and it's gone. Thanks :-)
 
4:16 PM
@Obliv on /sci/ Barnett is code for a sperg
I would show you examples but I'm in polite company and don't go on 4chan in polite company
(polite compared to 4chan)
 
lol
yeah I think short term memory aka working memory lets you score higher on iq tests. it's related to 'fluid' intelligence directly. thats what I got off googling it anyway
 
I can't remember the quadratic equation
 
well that's just because you never use it ;p
 
@0celo7 You can derive it... although I'm guessing you were just talking about your memory in general.
 
@barrycarter I know how to derive it
 
4:19 PM
@0celo7 Problem solved.
 
complete the square, then wrestle with the symbols
 
Yes, the symbols aren't that tough.
 
@Slereah How do non-Hausdorff spacetimes even work
You need a partition of unity to define the metric
 
I think the metric is only defined on Hausdorff submanifolds of it
On the "timelines"
 
That's stupid
What's the point of the messed up parts then
 
4:22 PM
Eh
 
If spacetime is not even defined there
 
It's not a very common theory
 
@ACuriousMind Can you access this text?
 
does surjectivity imply injectivity?
 
No.
$x\sin x$.
 
4:24 PM
@Obliv No, unless the domain and range are both finite and of equal size.
 
Only bijections are both
 
ah yeah i was thinking about that case only @barrycarter
 
@Obliv Good save
 
lol
 
@Obliv Yes, $f(x)=x\sin x$ is a counterexample in $\mathbb{R}$.
 
4:26 PM
what about $x\cos x$
 
Plot it
 
@Obliv That has to hit 0 at least twice.
@Obliv actually, an infinite number of times
 
^
@Obliv In fact, $P_x(x)\sin x+Q_n(x)\cos(x)$ for $P_n,Q_n$ nonconstant polynomials works.
 
shouldn't there always exist an $x$ such that $f(x) = x\cos x$?
 
@Obliv What
 
4:28 PM
isn't that the definition of surjectivity
 
What
 
@Obliv You said injectivity.
 
no I was saying does surjectivity imply injectivity
 
Surjective means the image of the domain is the codomain
 
@Obliv Yes, those functions like x cos x are surjective but not injective.
 
4:29 PM
oh I misunderstood woops.
 
@Obliv injective is just the horizontal line test
 
dude
 
shouldn't $x\sin x$ not be injective? It repeats..
 
@0celo7 Actually, you can do surjective as the horizontal line test too.
 
4:31 PM
@barrycarter Indeed.
 
@Obliv Correct, it's NOT injective, but it IS surjective.
 
The line should intersect the graph for all values in the codomain.
 
oh ok.
so $x^2$ is also surjective but not injective
 
No.
 
@0celo7 Yes, intersection 0 or 1 times -> injective, intersection exactly 1 time -> surjective, I think.
@Obliv x^2 is not surjective on the reals.
 
4:31 PM
@Obliv What is the inverse image of $-1$?
 
1?
 
So 1^2 = -1 ?
 
wait
 
@barrycarter Yeah.
 
Every function is surjective on its range :P
 
4:32 PM
You mean "intersection exactly 1 time -> bijective", right?
 
@0celo7 Yes, my cases were not exclusive.
 
Okay I see.
 
@0celo7 But your statement is better.
 
Dude
 
so x is bijective, $x^3$ is bijective, $x^2$ is injective. etc.
 
4:33 PM
My name is not that hard to @
 
Shit!
 
$x^2$ is not surjective
 
It is for me.
 
YOU JUST SAID
 
$x^2$ is NEITHER
 
4:34 PM
WAIT
 
For some reason, my tab key starts going through other buttons after I hit ^0 tab
 
I WAS LOOKING BACK AT MY COMMENT NOT YOURS FML
 
x^n is surjective when n is odd.
 
there we go
 
@barrycarter Proof using calculus?
 
4:35 PM
I think it's also injective actually.
 
@barrycarter Yeah, it's a bijection.
 
@0celo7 You can prove using continuity and limits, no calculus required.
 
...
I'm getting offended
 
@0celo7 OK, I'm typing two characters for you each time now
Or maybe I'll just assume you are all listening.
Proving injection probably isn't hard either, just factor x^n - y^n or something
 
How do you prove surjectivity?
 
4:37 PM
The function limits are infinity and -infinity, and its continuous.
 
Isn't it equivalent to the existence of $n$-th roots?
 
Which one, surj or inj?
 
Surj.
 
No, surj just requires it goes off to +- infinity and is continuous
 
For inj, prove that it's always increasing.
 
4:38 PM
Yes, strictly monotone.
n*x^(n-1) ... hmmm
Oh, right, because that's an even power.
 
@barrycarter Exactly.
 
That beats my factoring method.
(x-y)* (something that must be positive)
 
@barrycarter Yeah
 
Greetings, @JohnDuffield I bid you good day.
 
@barrycarter :o
 
4:39 PM
I can't bid people good day?
 
I think @JohnDuffield has me blocked
@barrycarter I shan't comment.
 
let $f$ be the map $A \to B$ and $g$ be the map $B \to A$. The proof to this claim: $f$ is bijective only when there exists an inverse $g$ such that $g \circ f = id_A$ and $f \circ g = id_B$. Suppose for all $b \in B$ the image through $g$ is $g(b) = a$ and for all $a \in A$ the image through $f$ is $f(a) = b$. then for all $a \in A$ $g \circ f (a) = id_a$, so $g \circ f(A) = id_A$. For all $b \in B$ $f \circ g (b) = id_b$ and so $f \circ g(B) = id_B$. Is this right?
 
@0celo7 : I don't have you blocked. Hi Barry.
 
@Obliv Skimming it, yes, but it doesn't seem rigorous enough to me.
 
@JohnDuffield Well I would talk physics with you but one of us would get banned.
 
4:43 PM
I don't think it's rigorous either lol
 
@JohnDuffield We can resume our relativity discussion (in another room) if you'd like.
 
I feel like for $f$ to be bijective, then $|A| = |B|$ must also be true
just guessing through intuition
 
@Obliv You are correct.
 
@Obliv Cardinality?
 
ya
 
4:44 PM
@Obliv Provided you extend |S| to transfinite sets.
 
If so, that's the definition for two sets to have the same cardinality.
(there exists a set isomorphism between them)
 
Cello speaks truly.
 
yeah they must have the same cardinality for $f$ to be bijective, that is what I'm saying.
 
Yes, and vice versa.
IE, for the cardinality to be the same there must exist a bijection.
For transfinite sets, that's the definition of equal cardinality.
 
so based on that definition, there has to be a $g$ where the image of $B$ through $g$ is equal to every single $a$ that corresponds to $b$. It's just given I thought
 
4:46 PM
Or g(B) = A?
 
yeah
 
@Obliv Something that's cool, $|\mathbb{R}|=|\mathbb{R}^n|$ for any $n\in \mathbb{N}$.
 
like if $g(b) = a$ and $f(a) = b$ for all of $a \in A$ and $b \in B$ then bijectivity seems like it has to be true
 
Cello, that's not cool, but it is true.
 
@barrycarter How is that not cool >:(
And I never say incorrect things, so
 
4:47 PM
what is the big N
natural numbers?
 
Well, it's not like pointing out that Z isn't equivalent to R, or that we can't instantiate a set between Z and R.
@Obliv yes.
 
@Obliv yes
 
there's no way that's true..
 
@Obliv OK, I guess you do find it interesting :)
 
@barrycarter I think that $|\mathbb{Z}|=|\mathbb{Q}|$ interesting
 
4:48 PM
@Obliv Also, the natural numbers are equal in size to the rationals.
 
wait if it's strictly the cardinality of sets that is definitely true
 
Ick, we think too much alike.
 
but not the actual values in the sets.. right?
 
@Obliv No, different set members, but you can map them to each other.
@Obliv Just by interlacing, which is why it's not interesting.
 
wow that's cool
 
4:49 PM
I wanted to use a big fancy word for interlace, but I can't remember it.
@Obliv No, what's cool is that R and Z are different sizes.
 
what is Z again
natural numbers too?
 
Integers
 
so are all natural numbers positive integers?
 
Or even that Q and R are different sizes.
 
I forgot the definition
 
4:50 PM
@Obliv Yes.
 
@barrycarter And therefore that the irrationals are uncountable!
The irrationals being larger than the rationals is neat
 
But the algebraic numbers ARE countable.
(agreeing with cello)
 
@barrycarter What are those? Rationals + roots/radicals?
 
The roots of any polynomial with rational coefficents.
 
$|\mathbb{R}| = |\mathbb{R}^n|$ for any $n \in \mathbb{Z}$ where $n$ is a multiple of 2.
 
4:52 PM
For 6th degree or higher polynomials, they can't be expressed as a combination of simple functions.
ChatJax didnt like that
 
@barrycarter You mean 5th?
Unless you've solved the quintic?
 
@barrycarter Actually, you have to say that there are roots that can't be expressed instead of saying "they" can't be expressed. Many fifth-order and higher roots can still be expressed, there's just no general formula for them
 
Cello, elliptic functions to solve the 5th, but that's stretching the definition of "simple functions"
Crap, too late to edit.
Yes, I meant can't always be expressed.
 
Cello?
 
@0celo7 No
 
4:54 PM
is what I said true too @barrycarter
 
My name is 0celo7
Or Ocelot
 
@ACuriousMind You're even more of a math purist than I am?
Ocelot works
@Obliv MathJax didn't render what you said, could you try agian?
 
i fixed it it should render now
 
@Obliv how is $\mathbb{R}^n$ defined for negative $n$
 
@Obliv So you're including negative numbers?
Ocelot, seriously, we are like too much alike
 
4:56 PM
oh shit
 
@barrycarter I'm an engineer
You wouldn't want to be like me
 
I feel dirty.
@Obliv And you don't need n to be a multiple of 2.
 
@barrycarter I take Fourier transforms of functions that are not square integrable
 
multiple of 3?
 
How does that make you feel
 
4:57 PM
@Obliv Any natural number works.
Ocelot, not as dirty as you'd think, because I've had to do some applied math for astronomy stuff recently.
 
what about $|\mathbb R^{+}| = |\mathbb R^{n}|$ for any $n \in \mathbb Z$ and $n$ is a multiple of 2. does that work?
 
@barrycarter $\delta(x)=0$ when $x\neq 0$ and $\infty$ when $x=0$
 
oh that's the zeta function right?
 
No, that's a delta.
 
lol woops
 
4:59 PM
@Obliv Once again, you don't need the multiple of 2 thing.
 
@Obliv $|\mathbb{R}_{>0}|=|\mathbb{R}|$.
 
@Obliv And once again, you want N, not Z.
 
@Obliv $|(a,b)|=|\mathbb{R}|$.
 

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